Session 12 July 2014

[Talas]

On the other hand, with all the greatness and usefulness of Caesar, he couldn't be saved from his fate. The same is with Kennedy, or Princess Diana. So there is probably some other mechanism at play here, maybe a concept of service to others that transcends time or this person's life. Maybe that's why Caesar said: "In the end you must be true to your own nature and fear nothing. If you do that you may make a difference after you are gone." Well, hopefully, if one learns from mistakes of others, there will be an opportunity to see one's seeds bearing fruit in this lifetime too! ;)

Well, one thing came to my mind. If Caesar had to go through the same path that all human beings have to go through in their spiritual development, then, from what I can see, he probably had the same problem as Gurdjieff - he couldn't find another person to put "on the step he has just left". Only thing he had was soldiers, which is not enough in any war. You must also have "generals" which are right behind your level of being.

And where were his potential candidates? Who knows. Just take a look today where we are and where is Laura. Thousands of miles are between us. And the only reason why we can talk to each other today is because we have internet. I mean, you can be the smartest guy (or girl) in the world, but if you don't have something like internet, forget about changing the world.

Just my 2 euro cents. ;)

Thing your two cents is spot on there.Be the change you wish to see in the world never rang more true.

 

[Talas]

Great job. Can you give him more hair, like before he started going bald, just so we can get an image of the "young Caesar"?

hmm ..

I do, but how thick his hair was in his youth?

could be here like this?))

/I think he had a sense of humor /

Could be but looking at the first picture the later does look to thick for his headshape and the amount of hair on the orginal,great representation and mock up anyway.

 

[luc]

I think you've touched on some important points. I like the way David Ray Griffin talks about morality and values. For him, morality deals with the "ultimate concern". Everyone has values, even psychopaths, but psychopaths only value themselves. They have no conception of a wider sphere of values, things of ultimate concern. The 'good' or the 'moral' is that which aligns with the ultimate: an action, a state of affairs, that is objectively better than its alternatives, given the conditions in which an action is made, and in reference to universal, objective values. But 'better' or 'best' according to what measure? That gets back to the 'ultimate': what does the universe/cosmic mind 'want'? What is 'best' for the evolution of the universe? In other words, as Gurdjieff asked, what is the aim of existence?

Thank you AI for these insights. Indeed, it seems it all comes down to this fundamental question: What does the universe want? And since the scope of this question is so vast, we probably will never be able to know the answer. But maybe we can at least come a little closer by paying attention to objective reality "left and right".

And this brings me to another thought I had, that conscience plays an important role here. So maybe we don't only need objective information "left and right", but also conscience as a driving force to create some sort of feedback loop. For example, if you take a decision that may affect other people and you emphasize with them, conscience would dictate that you take all measures and go to great lengths in order to find out what's the best decision that has the most beneficial, or least destructive effects. And this means you would have to come to some working hypothesis on "what the universe wants" in your specific situation, which involves gathering even more information and pondering. But it also works the other way around: If you gather a lot of information and realize that your own mind is cluttered with programs that cause harm to others, then you can start working on yourself and strengthen your connection to your conscience, which in turn dictates you to gather even more information...

For the psychopath, who has no conscience, there is no such feedback loop: he may be able to gather a lot of objective information, but only if it serves himself. If the information stands in his way, he simply ignores or denies it - hence the wishful thinking. So for example, if some psychopath justifies an invasion by "bringing 'em democracy", it would be easy for him/her to find out that this will not affect the people there in a positive way. But he ignores that. Someone with a (working) conscience like Caesar or Putin would try his best to gather the facts from all directions and make the best decision he can while emphasizing with those affected, even if it involves killing.

This probably means, again, that all universal ethical rules like "though shalt not kill" or utilitarian approaches are misleading and doomed to fail. They can always be twisted and used for paramoralisms. What counts is the best possible alignment with objective reality based on empathy, given a specific situation... Fwiw.

 

[gdpetti]

Great job. Can you give him more hair, like before he started going bald, just so we can get an image of the "young Caesar"?

hmm ..

I do, but how thick his hair was in his youth?

could be here like this?))

/I think he had a sense of humor /

So retro... yeah, baby, yeah! Seems to be one of the older members of a boy band.... or trying to look like Alexander from a previous age.

 

[lilies]

Jesus-Julius, guys!

Mark Year Zero in the Session calendar.

I have the feeling Laura, that your book about the missing years in history will be a sweeping success with the strength of the Tsunami! Pierre's book was a perfect get-used-to practice for the powerful realizations to come.

For you sitting at the board and receiving that energy must have been a profound transformative experience psycho-spiritually. Most of us have strong emotional ties to the Christ-spirit concept.

I immediately re-read Posidonius in this new light and felt a mild Eddie-in-Limitless clear effect, while understanding his words more - thanks to your delivery Laura - about the trunk of the Stoic Tradition as it came down during history.

Reading Caesar's words I suddenly realized he faced a historical raw terror of objective reality and he had to deal with it. Like we have to deal with this one now.

Until today I had this acquired super-shiny, golden religious gloss from Malachi Martin and rev. g{eorge}. Vale Owens description of 5D-Heaven and that is now gone, maybe that shining is applicable to 5D, but not much to this density, in our life now.

Had to pause and walk around, then bicycle to digest this, putting new info pieces to their respective places.

Ave Caesar-Julius-Jesus!

 

[gdpetti]

Well, one thing came to my mind. If Caesar had to go through the same path that all human beings have to go through in their spiritual development, then, from what I can see, he probably had the same problem as Gurdjieff - he couldn't find another person to put "on the step he has just left". Only thing he had was soldiers, which is not enough in any war. You must also have "generals" which are right behind your level of being.

And he said so himself with the statement that none of his friends were interested in power... so who else is left to fill your shoes? Was young Octavius really the best he could find at the time? That's rather sad. but another sign of the times as today in politics (USA) there are very few willing to 'step up to the plate' that know WTF is going on and how to survive the ordeal.

 

[l apprenti de forgeron]

I have read more than one occasion that Caesar had blue (or gray) eyes. In conclusion, clear eyes. And I think, subjectively, I like to see to Caesar represented in this way, perhaps like a closer link with Ark and Putin.

Where have you read the Caesar had blue or gray eyes?

According to Suetonius in his Life of the Deified Julius (45.1-3):

Caesar is said to have been tall, with a fair complexion, shapely limbs, a rather full face and keen black eyes and to have had sound health, except that towards the end of his life he was subject to sudden fainting fits as well as nightmares. He also had two attacks of epilepsy while on campaign.

"He was fastidious in the care of his person and so not only kept his hair carefully trimmed and shaved, but even had his body hair plucked. He was extremely vexed by the disfiguring effects of his baldness since he found it exposed him to the ridicule of his opponents. As a result he used to comb his receding hair forward from the crown of his head and of all the honours voted him by the senate and people, there was none that pleased him more or that he made use of more gladly than the privilege of wearing a laurel wreath on all occasions.

They say too that his dress was unusual; his purple-striped tunic had fringe sleeves down to the wrist and he always wore a belt over it, although it was loosely fastened. This it is said was the reason for Sulla's frequent warning to the optimates to beware of the 'loose-belted boy'.

Sorry about that, Laura. I got confused with some reading I did about Napoleon. Or even could have played some role, unconscious, the biblical Jesus of my childhood, who sometimes is depicted with clear eyes and sometimes with dark eyes. If not is something too superficial, you could asking about that to Caesar, or the real Jesus, in some other session?.

 

[Nienna]

Well, one thing came to my mind. If Caesar had to go through the same path that all human beings have to go through in their spiritual development, then, from what I can see, he probably had the same problem as Gurdjieff - he couldn't find another person to put "on the step he has just left". Only thing he had was soldiers, which is not enough in any war. You must also have "generals" which are right behind your level of being.

And he said so himself with the statement that none of his friends were interested in power... so who else is left to fill your shoes?

I don't think that wanting power is what would enable a person to be put on the step behind you, nor that they have to be generals. That's not what one needs to become of aware of our programs, seeing things as they are, gaining knowledge and using it. It's who you are and what you see. The fact that his friends were not interested in power was probably a plus for them. Caesar didn't want power, either, Nor, did he want to be the leader of an army, but it ended up that because of where he was, there was no other way to do what he was trying to do.

The only reason that there was no one to fill his shoes, if that's even relevant, is most likely because there was no one who was at a level of awareness close to where Caesar was at that time, just like Gurdjieff.

At least, that's the way it seems to me.

 

[Palinurus]

Q: (L) Let me come back to that. I'm not quite ready for that yet. I want to ask one other question. When I asked the question about Jesus or something, and there was something about three days in a comatose state, 96 hours of clear-channel meditation, emergence, prophesying to his followers, and then ascending into a mother ship? WHERE did that come from??

<snip>

(Perceval) That story about Jesus coming to the cave, or being placed in a cave... That comes straight from your biblical...

(L) My biblical training! And the UFO, Frank was all about UFOs! [laughter]

(Perceval) Trance meditation, you were fairly into that at the time.

I suddenly remembered that a similar cave scene has been written by Frank Herbert about Paul Atreides/Paul Muad'Dib (aka Usul) of Dune saga fame.

This could've been a subconscious source for those remarks, I guess. FWIW.

NOTE: My remark here is a duplicate from elsewhere .

 

[Kosma]

I can't find time to read even a fraction of knowledge I desire to gather from this forum, but damn, I've read this session's transcript and all pages from this thread at once in 2 hours, even though I'm at work doing my overtime! Wonderful session again!

It gave me much energy, as I recently feel very stuck in my life being a father of my little boy in difficult relationship with my wife, struggling to keep son in good condition in times of corrupted medicine, media, law and all these difficult things this sick world brings to those who refuse supporting status-quo. And I know I'm very responsible for my situation, but while loosing time on work and fighting with bureaucracy to support my family I'm so limited in resources I'd like to spend on activities I recognize so essential for me right now(and not only for me): practicing EE program, start SRT, switch to ketogenic diet (to know what to eat, to know where it get, to know what to do during conversion time), join PaleoChristanity, giveback something to our community, meet someone personaly to talk about all this amazing stuff instead of hiding my own opinions when talking with relatives and friends beacuse of ignorace and rejection, travel someday to France and meet Ark and Laura...

I feel wrong writing this and somehow burdening readers with my problems and grumbling, but I feel like I have nothing to give right now and don't know if this will change soon... I walk everyday like a closed, shaked soda bottle without space and time to open it and release all this tention, but this buttle cup is leaking and sometimes I feel like it will either be opened or it will popup itself...

sorry for the offtopic, maybe I should post it in the "What's on your mind section", but I felt like a I had to write something right now...

Regarding one other post:

In comparison, Russians defending their country against the Nazi onslaught in the Great Patriotic War (aka World War Two) killed righteously (in general).

It's always strikes me when I see such opinion about soviet army in the context how they were "liberating" countries when moving to Berlin - what I know these soldiers where mainly primitives who were raping and killing innocent people and those who refused to accept their thieviery and bestiality. So - ok, that was a force which liberated us from Nazis, but I'm far from using statement "killed righteously (in general)" about soviet army beacause in general they rather were same bastards as Nazis but with different goal and uniforms. I think this movie gives a good image about that: http://www.polishfilmfestival.net/Roza.htm

 

[lainey]

I can't find time to read even a fraction of knowledge I desire to gather from this forum, but damn, I've read this session's transcript and all pages from this thread at once in 2 hours, even though I'm at work doing my overtime! Wonderful session again!

It gave me much energy, as I recently feel very stuck in my life being a father of my little boy in difficult relationship with my wife, struggling to keep son in good condition in times of corrupted medicine, media, law and all these difficult things this sick world brings to those who refuse supporting status-quo. And I know I'm very responsible for my situation, but while loosing time on work and fighting with bureaucracy to support my family I'm so limited in resources I'd like to spend on activities I recognize so essential for me right now(and not only for me): practicing EE program, start SRT, switch to ketogenic diet (to know what to eat, to know where it get, to know what to do during conversion time), join PaleoChristanity, giveback something to our community, meet someone personaly to talk about all this amazing stuff instead of hiding my own opinions when talking with relatives and friends beacuse of ignorace and rejection, travel someday to France and meet Ark and Laura...

I feel wrong writing this and somehow burdening readers with my problems and grumbling, but I feel like I have nothing to give right now and don't know if this will change soon... I walk everyday like a closed, shaked soda bottle without space and time to open it and release all this tention, but this buttle cup is leaking and sometimes I feel like it will either be opened or it will popup itself...

sorry for the offtopic, maybe I should post it in the "What's on your mind section", but I felt like a I had to write something right now...

Sure it can be very overwhelming at times and sometimes it feels like there just isn't enough "time" to fit in everything. When I feel that way I say to myself "Relax, take it one step at a time" like the Cs say, do what is effortless for you. I think one of the lessons we have to learn while here is to be able to create balance in our lives. Also it is important to learn when to let go of certain things, I feel very distant from some people who I used to feel so close to now that my perception has changed. A lot of the time I feel like I am going it alone here as I've never met anyone face to face who has similar views. This is why the forum is important for me. It gives me hope. I wish you luck.

 

[DreamGod]

I felt something like Ark said, it was very electrifying. Dont have words to describe my happines and emotions.

Thanks for the session!

 

[Kasia]

(...) meet someone personaly to talk about all this amazing stuff instead of hiding my own opinions when talking with relatives and friends beacuse of ignorace and rejection (...)

As for me the only man I can talk to personally (mainly in my mind) about the Truth is the bust of Julius Caesar placed among the other 7 busts of Roman emperors located next to the Old Orangery in the Łazienki Park in Warsawa, where I live

Regarding one other post:

In comparison, Russians defending their country against the Nazi onslaught in the Great Patriotic War (aka World War Two) killed righteously (in general).

It's always strikes me when I see such opinion about soviet army in the context how they were "liberating" countries when moving to Berlin - what I know these soldiers where mainly primitives who were raping and killing innocent people and those who refused to accept their thieviery and bestiality. So - ok, that was a force which liberated us from Nazis, but I'm far from using statement "killed righteously (in general)" about soviet army beacause in general they rather were same bastards as Nazis but with different goal and uniforms. I think this movie gives a good image about that: http://www.polishfilmfestival.net/Roza.htm

I agree, most of Russian soldiers during the World Word II were behaving like animals...

 

[Niall]

sorry for the offtopic, maybe I should post it in the "What's on your mind section", but I felt like a I had to write something right now...

Regarding one other post:

In comparison, Russians defending their country against the Nazi onslaught in the Great Patriotic War (aka World War Two) killed righteously (in general).

It's always strikes me when I see such opinion about soviet army in the context how they were "liberating" countries when moving to Berlin - what I know these soldiers where mainly primitives who were raping and killing innocent people and those who refused to accept their thieviery and bestiality. So - ok, that was a force which liberated us from Nazis, but I'm far from using statement "killed righteously (in general)" about soviet army beacause in general they rather were same bastards as Nazis but with different goal and uniforms. I think this movie gives a good image about that: _http://www.polishfilmfestival.net/Roza.htm

I'm sorry Kosma, it was a poor comparison with not enough thought given to it. Whatever about comparing 'good' and 'bad' guys in the 20th century world wars, we probably cannot compare Caesar's wars in that time period with modern wars.

 

[Shinzenbi]

This topic of violence/killing has sometimes occupied my mind since i’ve read about the ideas of Georges Sorel. I've thought about posting it the thread entitled "was Julius Cesar the real Jesus Christ", but this one seems to be more apropriate. His Marxist analysis of violence has interested me. May I please ask your feedback ?

Georges Eugène Sorel was a French Marxist and socialist philosopher who lived from 1847 to 1922, for whom violence is a moral duty. He wrote that in his book Reflections on violence (available in English and French). In a nutshell, he says that ideas such as “thou shalt not kill” or “do no harm” are introduced in our minds by the ruling elites (upper classes) to emasculate the class struggle. Indeed, such ideas seem to come from the top, from the ruling classes to protect themselves. They really benefit it because they would be the first targets if there were more class struggle awareness and virility in society. He questions the idea of pacifism and its consequences: negotiation and conciliation. There exist forces that will never react to mere debate while imposing evil and harmful policies (which is violence). Then what is left ? He takes capitalism and big investors as examples, against which speech has no effect at all while they progress in their agendas.

Quotes from Wikipedia :

Reflections on Violence (Réflexions sur la violence) is a book by French revolutionary syndicalist Georges Sorel that was published in 1908. Sorel argues that the success of the proletariat in class struggle depended on the creation of a catastrophic and violent revolution achieved through a general strike. One of Sorel's most controversial statements claimed that violence could save the world from barbarism. He equates violence with life, creativity, and virtue.

Although his writing touched on many subjects, Sorel's work is best characterized by his original interpretation of Marxism, which was deeply anti-determinist, politically anti-elitist, anti-Jacobin, and built on the direct action of unions, the mobilizing role of myth—especially that of the general strike—and on the disruptive and regenerative role of violence. Whether Sorel is better seen as a left-wing or right-wing thinker is disputed: the Italian Fascists praised him as a forefather, but the dictatorial government they established ran contrary to his beliefs, while he was also an important touchstone for Italy's first Communists, who saw Sorel as a theorist of the proletariat. Such widely divergent interpretations arise from the theory that a moral revival of the country must take place to re-establish itself, saving it from decadence; yet whether this revival must occur by means of the middle and upper classes or of the proletariat is a point in question. His ideas, most notably the concept of a spontaneous general strike, have contributed significantly to anarcho-syndicalism.

The syndicalist or militant trade union movement, which burst into prominence in France around 1900, inspired Sorel to write his Reflections on Violence. The turmoil engendered by strikes was universally condemned even by parliamentary socialists, who favored negotiation and conciliation.

Two of its themes have become a part of social science literature: the concept of the social myth and the virtue of violence. To Sorel the Syndicalist's general strike, the Marxist's catastrophic revolution, the Christian's church militant, the legends of the French Revolution, and the remembrance of June Days are all myths that move men, quite independent of their historical reality. As one of Sorel's disciples (Benito Mussolini) said, men do not move mountains; it is only necessary to create the illusion that mountains move. Social myths, says Sorel, are not descriptions of things, but "expressions of a determination to act."

For Sorel the general strike was a catastrophic conception of socialism, the essence of the class struggle, and the only true Marxist means of effecting the revolution. Nowhere does Sorel endorse indiscriminate, brutal violence; only violence "enlightened by the idea of the general strike is unconditionally defended; only violence in the Marxist class war, as Sorel conceived it, is fine and heroic and in the service of the "immemorial interest of civilization." In fact, Sorel makes no justification of violence by philosophical argument, but uses long excursions into history and current events to demonstrate that ethical codes are relative to their time and place. In essence demonstrating that all our moral codes demonstrate moral relativism. Consistent with his position he could describe the Declaration of the Rights of Man as "only a colorless collection of abstract and confused formulas, without any practical bearing”.

“Those who make peaceful revolutions impossible make violent revolutions inevitable”.

Can we draw a parallel between Cesar's deeds and Sorel’s ideas ?