Session 13 September 2009

RyanX

The Living Force
Iconoclast said:
- just this week i became aware of a widely used tool in mass-music production, called 'autotune'

from wikipedia:
Auto-Tune is a proprietary audio processor created by Antares Audio Technologies that uses a phase vocoder to correct pitch in vocal and instrumental performances. It is used to disguise inaccuracies and mistakes, and has allowed many artists to produce more precisely tuned recordings.
Auto-Tune was initially created by Andy Hildebrand, an engineer working for Exxon. Hildebrand developed methods for interpreting seismic data, and subsequently realized that the technology could be used to detect, analyze, and modify pitch.
_http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auto-Tune
here is a video about it: _http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/sciencenow/0401/03.html

not sure how this fits in here, just thought i'd mention it.

I'm aware this technology has been in use for quite awhile now. However, thinking about it just now something came to mind...

Gurdjieff mentions the use of "inner octaves" for the purpose of creating "objective" music. I believe he mentions snake charmers as being a very rudimentary example of this. My thought was that perhaps production studios with some knowledge and awareness of inner octaves may be using this technology to create a certain sort of "objective" music in the negative sense. Something to induce suicides, murders and other nefarious programs as mentioned in this latest session. With such subtle manipulation of a vocalist's pitch it seems reasonable that somebody could accomplish this.

Then again, there may be some vocalists due to their development have a natural tenancy to create these inner octave tones naturally. These might be the ones that ultimately get "signed" to the big labels.

I suspect these inner octaves would still come through via mp3 or with any other modern recording and playback technology. These compression algorithms don't really effect the pitch to any large degree. It's mostly about canceling frequencies that the human ear naturally doesn't hear well anyways. On lower quality mp3s, I can usually tell the difference in the highs and sometimes the bass (if it's loud enough), but the melodies and pitch sound almost exact.
 

webglider

Dagobah Resident
A: They didn't crystallize, they split.

Q: (L) So one difference is that some people crystallize to survive, and some people split to survive. Is that it?

A: Yes

Q: (L) And I guess if you split to survive, all you have to do is bring yourself together and merge, and therefore it is somewhat easier than somebody who has crystallized and has to break everything down. Is that it?A: Yes

Q: (L) So that's one of the reasons for some of the different experiences among the people in the forum for example. Is that the case?

A: Yes

Q: (Joe) Maybe people who split, reintegration happens over a longer period of time, where they slowly, slowly, slowly put themselves back together, so the suffering is in little bits at a time. Whereas people who crystallize hold it off until all at once something has to break down... (L) Yeah, people who crystallize resist probably more. I think that was the case with me...

I think this relates to me too. By "crystallize" does it mean that the person's centers, especially the emotional center, solidifies around the belief in a false premise or an extremely negative experience?

Does everything else that happens in such a person's life aggregate around that one defining event or thought so that not only is the person locked in a metaphorical prison, but is prevented from apprehending the prison because the prison is locked inside the core of the self?

If something happens to cause the self to shatter, and then that self then reconstructs itself around another wrong premise, does the whole process have to happen again as violently as it occurred the first time?

Is there a more gentle way to get to that central core premise or experience?

When the breathing and meditation program first came out, I was practicing almost everyday. The world felt intesely bright and vibrant. But then Victoria died, and her death really unbalanced me. It's strange, as I'm writing this, I'm starting to cry. This can't be about Victoria - it has to be about something that she represents to me, but I'm at a loss to try to figure out what it is.

But I also draw back from exploring it because I don't want to experience the shattering of my entire self. That happened once before, and it was really dangerous.

Is there another way?
 

1984

SuperModerator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
tatanka said:
Excuse me all but I just read the last session with the Cs.
Interesting and disturbing.
I have questions that could sound childish but are still unanswered to me.
How does one feel when he is being soul smashed?
Also, what is the round breathing in the whole meditative process? (breathing and meditation)

Any help would be appreciated.

Hi tatanka - You can find the information on the Eíriú-Eolas - Breathing Program here along with the subsequent posts. It's quite long but worth the reading. :)
 

gotogo

Jedi Master
webglider said:
A: They didn't crystallize, they split.

Q: (L) So one difference is that some people crystallize to survive, and some people split to survive. Is that it?

A: Yes

Q: (L) And I guess if you split to survive, all you have to do is bring yourself together and merge, and therefore it is somewhat easier than somebody who has crystallized and has to break everything down. Is that it?A: Yes

Q: (L) So that's one of the reasons for some of the different experiences among the people in the forum for example. Is that the case?

A: Yes

Q: (Joe) Maybe people who split, reintegration happens over a longer period of time, where they slowly, slowly, slowly put themselves back together, so the suffering is in little bits at a time. Whereas people who crystallize hold it off until all at once something has to break down... (L) Yeah, people who crystallize resist probably more. I think that was the case with me...

I think this relates to me too. By "crystallize" does it mean that the person's centers, especially the emotional center, solidifies around the belief in a false premise or an extremely negative experience?

The key word of "crystallization" struck me also. My reference has been the following context in ISOTM:
[quote author=Gurdjieff in In Search of the Miraculous p39]
Fusion, inner unity, is obtained by means of 'friction,' by the struggle between 'yes' and 'no' in man. If a man lives without inner struggle, if everything happens in him without opposition, if he goes wherever he is drawn or wherever the wind blows, he will remain such as he is. But if a struggle begins in him, and particularly if there is a definite line in this struggle, then, gradually, permanent traits begin to form themselves, he begins to 'crystallize.' But crystallization is possible on a right founda­tion and it is possible on a wrong foundation. 'Friction,' the struggle between 'yes' and 'no,' can easily take place on a wrong foundation. For instance, a fanatical belief in some or other idea, or the 'fear of sin,' can evoke a terribly intense struggle between 'yes' and 'no,' and a man may crystallize on these foundations. But this would be a wrong, incomplete crystallization. Such a man will not possess the possibility of further development. In order to make further development possible he must be melted down again, and this can be accomplished only through terrible suffering.
[/quote]
:wow:

Please let me know if the key word "crystallization" in the session was used in a different meaning or context.


Edit: misspelling
 

combsbt

Jedi Master
GotoGo said:
Please let me know if the key word "crystallization" in the session was used in a different meaning or context.

Looks like that's exactly what was meant by it. Sometimes Gurdjieff and the C's are remarkably similar!

C said:
A: If one crystallizes on the wrong foundation it means much more suffering.

G said:
In order to make further development possible he must be melted down again, and this can be accomplished only through terrible suffering.
 

webglider

Dagobah Resident
But crystallization is possible on a right founda­tion and it is possible on a wrong foundation. 'Friction,' the struggle between 'yes' and 'no,' can easily take place on a wrong foundation. For instance, a fanatical belief in some or other idea, or the 'fear of sin,' can evoke a terribly intense struggle between 'yes' and 'no,' and a man may crystallize on these foundations. But this would be a wrong, incomplete crystallization. Such a man will not possess the possibility of further development. In order to make further development possible he must be melted down again, and this can be accomplished only through terrible suffering.

Yikes!

GotoGo said:
Please let me know if the key word "crystallization" in the session was used in a different meaning or context.

I was thinking along the lines of some traumatic early childhood experience that is buried in the subconscious that gives rise to a faulty belief system.

In order to make further development possible he must be melted down again, and this can be accomplished only through terrible suffering

Not the answer I was hoping for.

Okay, so as I understand it, the choice is between the loss of the soul through its devolution into a state of entropy and nothingness based on its faulty belief system or a total meltdown and terrible suffering.

This is not my day.
 

mada85

The Living Force
webglider said:
Okay, so as I understand it, the choice is between the loss of the soul through its devolution into a state of entropy and nothingness based on its faulty belief system or a total meltdown and terrible suffering.

This is not my day.

It might be helpful to remember the following:

Cs said:
A: Memories of lives of pain and suffering that remained unresolved at the end of those lives. We are sorry that some of this is painful, but this method is actually the least traumatic method of any for this purpose. Once the dark dreams are processed out of the system, all will be better. Then there are no more hooks for illusion to attach to. […]

A: Just remember that the slow breathing and the meditation and prayer are the most important components. If things move too fast then cut out the round breathing doing it only occasionally. […]

Q: […] (L) So, you can gauge your own process by how uncomfortable you are. And if you're uncomfortable, back off the round breathing and just do the meditation. The meditation and the prayer are the gentle, subsurface healing process I think. Is that correct?

A: Yes

Hope this helps (even if only a little) :/
 

combsbt

Jedi Master
webglider said:
Not the answer I was hoping for.

Okay, so as I understand it, the choice is between the loss of the soul through its devolution into a state of entropy and nothingness based on its faulty belief system or a total meltdown and terrible suffering.

This is not my day.

C's said:
Q: (L) Well, there are some other people who have suffered certainly much more trauma, or at least equal trauma, who I didn't notice going through any kind of similar really outrageous suffering.

A: They didn't crystallize, they split.

Q: (L) So one difference is that some people crystallize to survive, and some people split to survive. Is that it?

A: Yes

Q: (L) And I guess if you split to survive, all you have to do is bring yourself together and merge, and therefore it is somewhat easier than somebody who has crystallized and has to break everything down. Is that it?

A: Yes

It seems that if one "crystallizes" in the wrong direction it makes it a bit more traumatic to correct. Do you have reason to believe this is the case with you? I'm curious as to how one could identify whether this is the case, or if one has just 'split'. I guess a good indicator would be how we are reacting to the breathing program. Experiencing strong resistance could suggest this crystallization.

A: Just remember that the slow breathing and the meditation and prayer are the most important components. If things move too fast then cut out the round breathing doing it only occasionally.

I can see taking it slow as good advice to strong resistance, but I still think at some point, if it is present, one will still have to "tear down the wall." I guess we should continue the breathing program and see how it goes.
 

RedFox

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
webglider said:
Not the answer I was hoping for.

Okay, so as I understand it, the choice is between the loss of the soul through its devolution into a state of entropy and nothingness based on its faulty belief system or a total meltdown and terrible suffering.

This is not my day.

Hi webglider
You may be looking at things a little to closely perhaps? Maybe take a step back and do some pipe breathing?
The idea of suffering seems to have triggered some old defensive programs in you....
webglider said:
But I also draw back from exploring it because I don't want to experience the shattering of my entire self. That happened once before, and it was really dangerous.

It may be worth revisiting this with as much objectivity as possible (after some pipe breathing to calm yourself down). Its a bit like a catch 22.....you had an experience in the past (a shattering of your entire self) that is linked to the emotions you are now feeling and the idea of danger. So its tapping your core defences. Yet the E-E program is about releasing trapped/unpressed emotions.....
Can you see how you are now fighting yourself and this is where the tension is coming from?
Something pepperfritz once said comes to mind that may be of help

PepperFritz said:
webglider said:
I really do feel that if she doesn't make it, it will be the end of the world. I feel it in such a deep level of being that the sense of responsibility and helplessness throws me completely off balance and I lose myself.

I don't know if this will be helpful or not, but take if for what it's worth:

Something that has always helped me to break the emotional loop of catastrophic thinking is a kind of visualization exercise. When I begin to feel those panicky "What if" feelings start to overwhelm me, I let myself imagine the very WORST thing that could happen in the current situation, then (and here is the important part) I "problem-solve" into the future and see myself successfully coping with it. It's kind of the opposite of what the "positive thinking" new-agers tell you to do, but it really works for me. Instead of reacting to that great unknown and unknowable catastrophe looming in the future, I turn it into a knowable negative event in the real world, one that I may not want, but one that I have the ability to cope with.

In your case, this would mean vividly imagining all the terrible things that will happen if your daughter "screws up". Imagine that she doesn't graduate. Then visualize how you will handle that situation from that point forward. See yourself laying down the law forcing her to get a job. See her "hating" you for a while, moving out, working at McDonalds, and living in a hell-hole apartment. Visualize yourself accepting that outcome, being OK with her learning her own lessons. Then visualize her learning those lessons, asking to move back home so that she can finish school, get back on track, etc. Keep repeating a mantra to yourself: "It'll be OK, I can deal with it", etc.

Like I said, it has always worked really well for me. Quickly calms me down and gets me out of the loop. Gives me confidence that whatever happens, it won't be the end of the world, just another challenge to face, another problem to solve....

webglider said:
When the breathing and meditation program first came out, I was practicing almost everyday. The world felt intesely bright and vibrant. But then Victoria died, and her death really unbalanced me. It's strange, as I'm writing this, I'm starting to cry. This can't be about Victoria - it has to be about something that she represents to me, but I'm at a loss to try to figure out what it is.

Perhaps it is to do with loss, change (symbolic death of the 'self') and grieving for such? I would always cry when I watched something about death on a film or TV program (mostly only fictional). For me part of it was about unexpressed grief and my subconscious finding an outlet for it. The grief was for what I had lost in childhood....the loss of part of myself. When I split that part off and buried it but had not grieved for it (how could I, I was a child).
So maybe it is grief for a split (rather than crystallisation)?....and the fear of disintegration is really just the fear of loosing more of yourself?
There is also the possibility that your predator is using this fear to hang on for dear life.....and the fear is its not yours?
Be gentle on yourself and take a step back, and remember to breath :)

Also for what its worth, if you are unable to explore this past experience yourself it may be worth exploring it on the forum?
 

go2

Dagobah Resident
Session 13 September 2009 said:
(Keit) So this is what we have to do, find what is of hope. Continue being the lighthouse. Because if you live in a hopeless environment, you either give up and kill yourself, or you give up in the sense that you kill your own soul. What's the only way you can live in a soulless environment? Lose your soul.

(C**) I think they were saying that the music or Laura's voice can like give them strength or counter the negative frequencies that take away hope.

(L) The illusion is that there is no hope. And once you get rid of the illusion that there is no hope, and you can begin to see what you really can do, then…

I do not understand hope as it is used by Keit and Laura in this passage. It seems to me, as if it is an illusion that there is no hope and a reciprocal illusion that there is hope. What does hope or not hope have to do with the Work. Does not “complete bankruptcy” mean the surrender of all hope? I cannot say I have or have not hope, yet I go on with the invisible combat, without hope. What else can I do?

I have noticed, at least it has been my perception that hope is a thing of the personality, a thread of the predators mind to bind and confuse me. Is hope a self-calming or self-improvement program?

Am I missing something? Please tell me what I cannot see about hope?
 

RyanX

The Living Force
go2 said:
I do not understand hope as it is used by Keit and Laura in this passage. It seems to me, as if it is an illusion that there is no hope and a reciprocal illusion that there is hope. What does hope or not hope have to do with the Work. Does not “complete bankruptcy” mean the surrender of all hope? I cannot say I have or have not hope, yet I go on with the invisible combat, without hope. What else can I do?

I have noticed, at least it has been my perception that hope is a thing of the personality, a thread of the predators mind to bind and confuse me. Is hope a self-calming or self-improvement program?

Am I missing something? Please tell me what I cannot see about hope?

I'm probably off on this, but it seems to me that one cannot truly have hope without "complete bankruptcy". Until all of the illusions have passed, "hope" is just a mirage. If what you consider hope is still linked to the predators mind, is it truly "hope" or is it just another buffer or "self calming" program? Something to consider...
 

Mountain Crown

The Living Force
[quote author=go2]I have noticed, at least it has been my perception that hope is a thing of the personality, a thread of the predators mind to bind and confuse me. Is hope a self-calming or self-improvement program?[/quote]

Hope that is of the personality would be false, because the personality is false.

Genuine hope then could only available to the soul.

The question may be whether hope is necessarily self-calming? Or is it that which provides impetus for the work? Why would one do the work at all, if there was no hope for reaping any benefit from it?
 

ScioAgapeOmnis

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
go2 said:
I do not understand hope as it is used by Keit and Laura in this passage. It seems to me, as if it is an illusion that there is no hope and a reciprocal illusion that there is hope. What does hope or not hope have to do with the Work. Does not “complete bankruptcy” mean the surrender of all hope? I cannot say I have or have not hope, yet I go on with the invisible combat, without hope. What else can I do?

I have noticed, at least it has been my perception that hope is a thing of the personality, a thread of the predators mind to bind and confuse me. Is hope a self-calming or self-improvement program?

Am I missing something? Please tell me what I cannot see about hope?
The way I see it, it's not hope that the future *will* be different, but hope that it *can* be. The same goes for the Work - it's not hope that you *will* wake up but hope that such a thing is even possible, that there even exists an alternative to the way things are. If you have no hope that an alternative even exists, if you think that what you see is the only way things can be, then you have no reason or will to even make any attempt to escape the matrix.

I think in this sense it is equivalent to going from a closed state to an open state in terms of your interaction with the creation and yourself. You go from imposing your limiting assumptions on the universe and what is possible (assumptions that you have been brainwashed with by the world itself) to getting rid of those assumptions to some extent. So when we reach a total bankrupcy we go from having a "false hope" to real hope, from closed to open. We go from the false assumption that a certain ritual or belief system will bring us the "answers" or "salvation" to becoming open to all possibilities for the first time in our lives, and allowing the universe to truly bring us the possibility of salvation through knowledge.

This meaning of hope seems to be the same as what the C's meant by "faith" when they refer to "faith in terms of our interaction with the creation". Those with no hope have no faith in themselves or the universe, they impose their own assumptions and beliefs on the universe and place their faith and hope in those false beliefs, which is really a twisted "ponerized" definition of faith and hope. As I understand it, having hope means being open to all possibilities and acknowledging to yourself at the deepest level that the future is truly open and allowing the universe, in its infinite wisdom and infinite potential, to "reveal itself" to you. Basically knowing that you CAN learn and understand and grow if you only stop limiting yourself with assumptions, illusions, and beliefs, and to stop having "hope" that the universe will conform to your expectations of it.
 

webglider

Dagobah Resident
Mada85 said:
It might be helpful to remember the following:

Cs said:
A: Memories of lives of pain and suffering that remained unresolved at the end of those lives. [/b]We are sorry that some of this is painful, but this method is actually the least traumatic method of any for this purpose. Once the dark dreams are processed out of the system, all will be better. Then there are no more hooks for illusion to attach to. […]

A: Just remember that the slow breathing and the meditation and prayer are the most important components. If things move too fast then cut out the round breathing doing it only occasionally. […]

Q: […] (L) So, you can gauge your own process by how uncomfortable you are. And if you're uncomfortable, back off the round breathing and just do the meditation. The meditation and the prayer are the gentle, subsurface healing process I think. Is that correct?

A: Yes

Hope this helps (even if only a little) Undecided

Thanks Mada85. I had totally forgotten about the role and influence of past lives in this one.

I also don't know how I could have missed the instructions you presented above. I backed off from the program entirely when the intense feelings began to surface, but now that I know that I can control the pace of the process, I feel much more comfortable at the prospect of starting again.

combst said:
Do you have reason to believe this is the case with you? I'm curious as to how one could identify whether this is the case, or if one has just 'split'.

I had an experience years ago that seems to fit this description:

Q: (L) And I guess if you split to survive, all you have to do is bring yourself together and merge, and therefore it is somewhat easier than somebody who has crystallized and has to break everything down. Is that it?

A: Yes
When everything was breaking down, I saw things that I ordinarily never see. It was absolutely terrifying. It wasn't about reconnecting to a part of myself that I had forgotten although I did retrieve a terrifying memory which my mother identified as something that really did happen when I was 10 months old.

The process, though, wasn't about memory; it was about seeing the truth about the way things actually are - suddenly knowing that the beliefs I held as truths were actually lies. The process happened way too fast, and it overwhelmed me.

RedFox said:
The idea of suffering seems to have triggered some old defensive programs in you... Its a bit like a catch 22.....you had an experience in the past (a shattering of your entire self) that is linked to the emotions you are now feeling and the idea of danger. So its tapping your core defences. Yet the E-E program is about releasing trapped/unpressed emotions.....

In thinking about what you've written, Redfox, it seems to me that the releasing the trapped/unexpressed emotions is what is most unnerving because the process is so unpredictable. It was totally unexpected the first time because the emotions that came up were not the ones I was used to dealing with. They consisted of a terror that was so great that it was almost impossible to bear.

It's not the same experience this time. This time the emotions are more manageable so far, but I am concerned that there is something underneath the surface that may be connected to that terror that visited me before. So far, all that's come up is grief triggered by Victoria's death. I haven't felt it for a while, and yet when I was writing the post before, it came up again out of nowhere.

It must have something to do with a need to feel in control. The prospect of intense emotions coming at me seemingly out of nowhere is very unnerving. About a week or so ago the emotions started intensifying, and I pulled back. It felt as though I were in two worlds at the same time, and I made a choice to return to the rational one, and, as they say, pulled myself together so that I could function as usual.

But now that I realize that I can have some control over the process by choosing to eliminate the round breathing, I'll do that.

There is also something else which I just thought of having to do with the prayer. Actually, it's two parts of the prayer.

Here are the lines:

"Holy awareness in All Creation" and "That I may know and love/The Holiness of True Existence."

These lines seem to be asking for the knowledge of everything in the universe: knowledge of both good and evil,and the ability to not only be aware of them, but to know and love them both.

Perhaps love is invoked in the prayer as a power capable of balancing the two. It must be a very different quality of love than the one we refer to in life. Maybe its presence will mitigate the evil and make awareness of it much less terrifying and thus able to be borne.
 
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