Session 21 November 2015

Mariama

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Besides, Ark is a public person. You cannot keep in secret some issues.
It's not up to you to decide what should be kept 'secret'. That's up to Ark and other elders. Remember free will? Using the word 'secret' sets a particular tone IMO.

Unless you have something to hide.
It seems to me that you are hinting at something nefarious, which is all in your mind.
 
It's not up to you to decide what should be kept 'secret'. That's up to Ark and other elders. Remember free will? Using the word 'secret' sets a particular tone IMO.
It seems to me that you are hinting at something nefarious, which is all in your mind.
Funny you mention free will, while I was thinking about the same, when was repeatedly asked the same question.
I'm curious about one more thing. Are you motivated by law or love in this persue? Be honest please.
 

Ant22

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Besides, Ark is a public person. You cannot keep in secret some issues. Unless you have something to hide.
It's not up to you to decide what should be kept 'secret'. That's up to Ark and other elders. Remember free will? Using the word 'secret' sets a particular tone IMO.
Ark's public persona is that of a physicist. Just like everyone else he has the right to decide which aspects of his private life he keeps private.

It seems to me that you are hinting at something nefarious, which is all in your mind.
Yeah, looks like more deflection to avoid answering the question. More defence through attack. KM hopes we are going to start explaining ourselves instead of focusing on him, or that he'll scare us off to drop the topic entirely.

I don't think it is an entirely conscious process in him. It is however a frequently observed behaviour in those who have something to hide. It's like shouting "Look over there! Don't look at me!"


This person divulged information to you that was meant to be private, and your response to being asked who this person might be is to respect the privacy of a person who doesn’t respect other people’s privacy?
Very complex problem you have here. Key factor is trust. I explain - since I was attacked for nothing (yeah, curiosity, I'm curious where those kind of curiosity is helpful)
KM, you weren't attacked, you were asked. And you refused to answer because, as Turgon said, protecting the privacy of someone who disrespected Ark's privacy is more important to you. Strange priorities for a long-time forum member.

I lost trust, so I don't wanna answer. And You want me to answer against my will. And you repeat the question, although I told enough. Maybe it seems normal in France or in USA, but for me it seems highly unfriendly. Unless I gave earlier reasons not to be trusted.
Your refusal to answer and your attitude made us lose trust in your good intentions and co-linear priorities as well. This makes your further participation on the forum rather tricky since we will have to be on guard when interacting with you. If this doesn't bother you then, well, it's your choice to proceed down that path I guess.

But I do wonder why someone whose ego and self-importance are more precious to them than doing what Gurdjieff said, i.e. submitting your wilfulness to the will of the teacher, wants to be a member of this forum in the first place. Surely it isn't for the dietary advice since you reject that in favour of your own opinion as well.

Is answering the question something that I must do, so I do such a tricks to avoid a question? I just didn't answer it and continued the conversation. I probably would tell who told me, but now when you appear to be official in your curiosity, I have to be also, so I cannot tell (unless I get the permission) who do I know it from. I can only say what I said earlier, since I write with Ark since 2008 I suppose, someone who knows both of us told me to help you find the solution you obviously dropped.
Answering the question is something that you should do in oder to comply with the rule we strive to live by here: give to those that ask.

We are not driven by simple curiosity but by the need to protect the forum and its Elders. As pointed out above, you prefer to protect those who disrespect them and their privacy. Because they like to gossip. It says a lot about you and how much you really value the forum and its creators.

You "write with Ark since 2008" and you found out through "backdoor channels" because Ark didn't tell you himself. That says a lot IMO.

It's not us who are curious in an unhealthy way, it is you. A committed forum member would have approached the forum owners immediately and told them that information they wished to keep private was circulating outside the circles they shared it with. But you probably listened to everything that was said, asked questions to find out even more and then you made cryptic remarks about "backdoor channels". As if being in possession of such information somehow made you important. It doesn't make you important KM. It makes both you and your secret sources a threat. Is that what you want to be for us here?

Besides, it's not really hard to ask Ark who else outside the forum knows about the topic of this conversation. I doubt it's a lot of people. But if the answer is 'no one outside the forum' then it will put you in a rather tricky position.
 

Ant22

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Are you motivated by law or love in this persue? Be honest please.

We are motivated by the love of the Elders, the forum and FOTCM. I'd think you would be too but this is clearly not the case.

You cannot keep in secret some issues. Unless you have something to hide.
It's not up to you to decide what should be kept 'secret'. That's up to Ark and other elders. Remember free will? Using the word 'secret' sets a particular tone IMO.
Funny you mention free will, while I was thinking about the same, when was repeatedly asked the same question.
Have you had a chance to read Gurdjieff's work? As I said above, he says that in order to progress in the Work one must submit their own will to the will of the teacher. On the forum that will be the Chateau crew. You are doing the opposite.

And speaking of free will, will you allow people like Bill Gates to exercise their own free will to vaccinate you? Why are you objecting to the free will of the medical industry to hide or smear information about the benefits of iodine? Did Putin violate the free will of the American Empire when he stood up to defend Syria?

I think you would benefit from thoroughly revising the concept of free will before you insist that yours is respected at all times and above everyone else's. A member of this forum shouldn't mistake the will of the predator's mind for free will.
 
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Ark's public persona is that of a physicist. Just like everyone else he has the right to decide which aspects of his private life he keeps private.
I assume talking about Putin's health issues was with his permission, since he is a country leader?

Yeah, looks like more deflection to avoid answering the question. More defence through attack. KM hopes we are going to start explaining ourselves instead of focusing on him, or that he'll scare us off to drop the topic entirely.
Nope, maybe it's my syntax fault, but you did get it wrong. I'm not attacking, First, I complained at Joe's behaviour, because it wasn't first time, and it came after more than ten years of knowing Joe, and even meeting him personally.
Althoughh you try to convince me that I am attackin, it isn't simply true. I'm defending myself, and you are attacking me telling me, that I attack. So let it be, but I know it isn't true.

I don't think it is an entirely conscious process in him. It is however a frequently observed behaviour in those who have something to hide. It's like shouting "Look over there! Don't look at me!"
You're absolutely right, although I keep telling everybody everything, this time I have this strong innner feeling, that I shouldn't fullfill your demands.

KM, you weren't attacked, you were asked. And you refused to answer because, as Turgon said, protecting the privacy of someone who disrespected Ark's privacy is more important to you. Strange priorities for a long-time forum member.
I was asked by Joe, but in a way that made me not easy. Then I followed unconscious signs. Then You demand answer. Not ask.
Besides, there is enough information on curreent forum to identify whom do I have the info from, so it is even not a secret.
Problem is somewhere else, some kind of STS thinking.

Your refusal to answer and your attitude made us lose trust in your good intentions and co-linear priorities as well. This makes your further participation on the forum rather tricky since we will have to be on guard when interacting with you. If this doesn't bother you then, well, it's your choice to proceed down that path I guess.
We should give to whom who ask, not demands and threaten. Besides I feel treated this way almost since beginning. I suppose thank to ex-forum member and ex-friend of Ark opinion who knew her as Magia. After travelling with her to Barcelona, I found who is she and cut the contact, right there. Ark even wrote to me how wrong I was, that I should repair the relation, be sorry, etc. I followed his instruction precisely, against my inner voice. It didn't help a bit, and then, 6 years later Magia visited Ark and made such a show, that I got info from every (front) door. Including Ark. So, in spite of fact, that I spotted danger first, was right in my view, I was treated on the forum like persona non grata ever since.

But I do wonder why someone whose ego and self-importance are more precious to them than doing what Gurdjieff said, i.e. submitting your wilfulness to the will of the teacher, wants to be a member of this forum in the first place. Surely it isn't for the dietary advice since you reject that in favour of your own opinion as well.
Baseless allegations. Who is my teacher? You? In a same way I am yours. Ark? So I will submit willfulness to the Ark will. Not yours. And don't quite follow the rest. Are you proposing authoritarian thinking?


Answering the question is something that you should do in oder to comply with the rule we strive to live by here: give to those that ask
What about demanding? Should we give them too?

We are not driven by simple curiosity but by the need to protect the forum and its Elders. As pointed out above, you prefer to protect those who disrespect them and their privacy. Because they like to gossip. It says a lot about you and how much you really value the forum and its creators.
I agree you may have your own purposes, but do the ends justify means? Especially free will bending?

You "write with Ark since 2008" and you found out through "backdoor channels" because Ark didn't tell you himself. That says a lot IMO.
No, didn't tell, I just described how our contacts "cooled". Besides, networking works better.

It's not us who are curious in an unhealthy way, it is you. A committed forum member would have approached the forum owners immediately and told them that information they wished to keep private was circulating outside the circles they shared it with.
Here you absolutely right. I didn't think about it earlier. Not kjnowing it was confident info I shared it on the forum. My mistake.

"But you probably listened to everything that was said, asked questions to find out even more and then you made cryptic remarks about "backdoor channels". As if being in possession of such information somehow made you important. It doesn't make you important KM. It makes both you and your secret sources a threat. Is that what you want to be for us here?"
Allegations. I wasn't informed with no further information. I was asked for help, because "they give antibiotics to Ark!". That was all. I still don't know what is the problem, if I don't count Ark's information about some helicobacter problems. Public, so I can share that.

Besides, it's not really hard to ask Ark who else outside the forum knows about the topic of this conversation. I doubt it's a lot of people. But if the answer is 'no one outside the forum' then it will put you in a rather tricky position.
Just go ahead. I provided enough information already.
 
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We are motivated by the love of the Elders, the forum and FOTCM. I'd think you would be too but this is clearly not the case.
I judge by the fruits, so I don't believe you in that. You might believe it, but sorry, I don't. And I believe you are wrong with second part of the sentence.

Have you had a chance to read Gurdjieff's work? As I said above, he says that in order to progress in the Work one must submit their own will to the will of the teacher. On the forum that will be the Chateau crew. You are doing the opposite.
I read about Gurdjieff's work written by Uspienski, brilliant work. Although as we know, his amazing knowledge didn't asure he went the right path unfortunatelly.

And speaking of free will, will you allow people like Bill Gates to exercise their own free will to vaccinate you?
Yeah, they KEEP INSISTING.

Why are you objecting to the free will of the medical industry to hide or smear information about the benefits of iodine?
I don't. I keep telling people about it, but I know it is natural. It was set this way. I'm not objecting it. It's the reason I don't expect, need or want anything from it. I have the knowledge, they always try to hurt. And I'm still afraid you do not have so profound confidence...

Did Putin violate the free will of the American Empire when he stood up to defend Syria?
Don't get the comparison. Who am I in it, American Empire?

I think you would benefit from thoroughly revising the concept of free will before you insist that yours is respected at all times and above everyone else's. A member of this forum shouldn't mistake the will of the predator's mind for free will.
Ok, I will do, but promise me You will too. A member of this forum shouldn't judge so easily who has predator's mind. And even if, one should know what kind of weapons STO candidate may use.
 
I read many of them. I even searched where the idea come from. As I told earlier, the earliest source I found was vegan pages. And I don't have any trust in their arguments. None of the told properties of the milk was observable among people I know who drink a lot of milk.
I was sure for some time, that milk causes osteoporosis, or breast cancer (there were quite good arguments), but it appeared to be so wrong. Osteoporosis is caused mainly by fluoride and bromine poisoning, as well as lack of animal fats in youth. Breast cancer has similar causes (poisoning by other metals, like Al from antiperspirants blocking detox as well), plus iodine defficiency. Milk is a source of iodine, so it should help avoid breast cancer. In order to manage with calcium overload, one just has to use vinegard sometimes, that dissolves calcium deposits in body organs and vessels.
On the other hand, I have knowledge about bad reactions for milk. I have knowledge about bad reactions for eggs and even red meat. The source of those effects is in my opinion are three mechanisms:
- infection, that "likes" very much one of milk indigrients (lactose for example, or rather casein),
- allergic reaction (like for eggs), provoked by vaccinations,
- detox effect that is provoked by animal fats.
I think you should focus on the physiological processes at the intestinal level and autoimmune problems, the ones you have mentioned as casein are usually named, but so by themselves they do not say much ... as I said we can go on and on because we are going around in circles , the best thing would be to go to the forums or to this article: Why Milk Is So Evil -- Sott.net and comment on the points on which you do not agree (although you think well what you will answer, do not make noise please) ... you say that we can have chemical reactions to many things like eggs, red meat ... yes, it is true, but we are relativizing too much, milk is different! And although, like meat, not all is the same, it is clearly much more problematic ... I reiterate that if you are doing many things well in your diet and way of life, a problematic food can go unnoticed and your body seems to totally support it, more even if it tastes good and feels nice from casomorphins and fat like milk. ps: it would be good for you to remember the topic of the questions and answers that "look like attacks", it is one of the things mentioned in the information provided to become a member.
 
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Turgon

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Very complex problem you have here. Key factor is trust. I explain - since I was attacked for nothing (yeah, curiosity, I'm curious where those kind of curiosity is helpful), I lost trust, so I don't wanna answer.
I'm not sure how asking questions about where you got your information from equals being attacked. But it's not that complex of an issue. You, and whoever this person is are selective about respecting other peoples privacy. Although I certainly am not forcing you or telling you what you should or shouldn't do, just pointing out the inconsistency of your actions.

Maybe it seems normal in France or in USA, but for me it seems highly unfriendly.
I'm not from the USA or France, but where I come from, if you divulge something in confidence to someone else and that person goes ahead and tells other people about it, that person earns a reputation of being untrustworthy. Now, maybe it was said accidentally or without thinking, and that happens. People make mistakes. But at least own up to and apologize for it and make an effort not to do it again. You earn back trust and respect by doing that.
 
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Luks

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@Kenny McCormick

In my opinion, you were a bit of overactive to Joe's response. The English language is more direct, and if you don't hear the voice, or do not see another person, you can't recognize correctly attitude toward you. I do not think that Joe wanted to be offensive or something, for what a reason? :-) I suppose that he was surprised by your response. Take into account how he can feel and see things (external consideration over internal consideration) ;-)

If I remember correctly, in the past, you were happy about your successes on Salon24 when your blog gained popularity, and Ark commented that you are an intelligent guy, and this a success you deserve - paraphrasing. So I do not see any logical explanation of why he could be against you or anyone from this Community. The best write to Ark directly.

Magia - Interesting that you mention her. She was definitely a bad person, and she was finally disclosed, and she left the Community, as far as I know. You see Ark and others aren't any kind of Super Seer, and, as I see, they think first about growing the community, this is why they recommend not to lose relationships, I think. What is good.

To other members from the forum. You see, the important thing for growing to 4D STO is networking. If you find that another one is going to be defensive, aggressive, passive, he is wrong, whatever; it is not externally considerate to point his/her things out and put them out of the circle, just keep them in the circle and calm down the situation and find a solution.
But I do wonder why someone whose ego and self-importance are more precious to them than doing what Gurdjieff said, i.e. submitting your wilfulness to the will of the teacher, wants to be a member of this forum in the first place.
Ant22, STO network isn't about following authority in particular whos who isn't in this world. The reason for The Work is i.a. USING ONE'S MIND. So your words are too much exaggerated. As we know, G. was wrong about many things; however, he was often RIGHT and did A LOT GOOD things comparing to the average person. But he isn't a master. He is just another guy, clever guy, but another guy.

In STO, one's should be independent and be the authority to himself, not search to be managed from outside. However, people from outside can assist, give some clues and help when asked.
 
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Joe

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Ant22, STO network isn't about following authority in particular whos who isn't in this world. The reason for The Work is i.a. USING ONE'S MIND. So your words are too much exaggerated. As we know, G. was wrong about many things; however, he was often RIGHT and did A LOT GOOD things comparing to the average person. But he isn't a master. He is just another guy, clever guy, but another guy.

In STO, one's should be independent and be the authority to himself, not search to be managed from outside. However, people from outside can assist, give some clues and help when asked.
Using one's mind does not preclude the idea of "submitting your will to a teacher", in fact, it is often a function of using one's mind in a useful and independent way. After all, deciding to "submit to the will of a teacher" is a sovereign, independent choice that usually takes a level of personal insight, strength and courage that most people lack.

When referring to "the teacher", Ant22 wasn't referring to a single person as Gurdjieff suggested, but rather to the network. In the case of our group, the network is "the teacher", and it's pretty clear that she is correct that Kenny is not interested in accepting the input of the network, in this case or in any other as far as I can tell.

Few, if any, people can be an effective "authority to themselves". Those that know this viscerally (through hard-won experience of their perception and thinking errors and the painful results) have usually lost enough self-importance to insist that they should never be 'managed from the outside'.
 
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Joe

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Kenny, in order to avoid any more of this pointless nitpicking and obtuse argumentation that you seem to enjoy so much, I'll bring this discussion back to the SINGLE point that started it and which you appear to still not understand.

You posted in this public section of the forum information about a private matter. You do not have access to that private information, and you hinted that you got it from someone who does. We have pretty strict rules about privacy here, and they apply to all members. The rules are to protect the privacy of all members. This is not acceptable behavior on this, or any other respectable forum, either by you or the person who provided you with the information. If you continue to disrespect the rules of this forum you will no longer be permitted to participate in it.

Do you understand? Think carefully about your response.
 

Luks

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FOTCM Member
Using one's mind does not preclude the idea of "submitting your will to a teacher", in fact, it is often a function of using one's mind in a useful and independent way. After all, deciding to "submit to the will of a teacher" is a sovereign, independent choice that usually takes a level of personal insight, strength and courage that most people lack.

When referring to "the teacher", Ant22 wasn't referring to a single person as Gurdjieff suggested, but rather to the network. In the case of our group, the network is "the teacher", and it's pretty clear that she is correct that Kenny is not interested in accepting the input of the network, in this case or in any other as far as I can tell.

Few, if any, people can be an effective "authority to themselves". Those that know this viscerally (through hard-won experience of their perception and thinking errors and the painful results) have usually lost enough self-importance to insist that they should never be 'managed from the outside'.
In this sense, it's okay :) It mirrors my own view.

Thanks for your precise response.
 
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