Session 25 April 2010

[Buddy]

So when the intellect uses this emotional energy to tell you what is going on, it is NOT going to tell you what you are really feeling, first because its job is to "protect" you from hurt and pain (which it has decided from past experience is what happens when you show your emotions), second, because it is not going to admit anything about you that conflicts with the 'perfect' image you have of yourself. And third because it can't really access your emotions because that is not its job.

Perceval, thank you for that wonderful post. Every word of it is meaningful to me, but the part I quoted is a fairly recent realization and I am happy to see it confirmed.

 

[Joe]

I'll give an example, I am working on a project and I am really frustrated and angry because it does not work out well, I can't find the right way to do it.
I am attached to these negative feelings because I feel justified and it is almost impossible not to see for a short moment that I "enjoy" this state I am in.
It's very difficult to remove myself from these feelings and accept that it is the way things are, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.
Just because I actually "enjoy" this suffering I don't let go.
When I say I, it's not really me who likes that but the predator's mind and it feeds.

Well do act out this frustration and anger? Does it get you attention from someone else? It sounds like it may be propping up a belief that the world is out to get you, that you are repeatedly thwarted in your efforts, maybe that you "can never do get anything right". Do you ever say things like these when you are in that state?

 

[Joe]

You have to pay in advance, for every little thing that you don't want to do, for every resistance, for every inaction, pay with the loss of your false personality and you're going to suffer, but this suffering has a purpose.

What would a concrete forward paying motion be? At the level that I understand it; would be by exercising brutal honesty towards the machine. But how to pay the false personality currency in interactions, besides observation and external consideration?

There is a bit of Gurdjieff that might be useful here. When he talks about the sacrifice of suffering, you might think that this is contradictory with the above, but there is much subtlety here - he is talking about sacrificing of elements of the false personality, imagined elements even, such as personal identification with suffering, in my understanding. So, actually it is very relevant to current events. There are some other really thought-provoking passages in ISOTM, but this is the one I'm talking about:

I have already said before that sacrifice is necessary. Without sacrifice, nothing can be attained. But if there is anything in the world that people do not understand it is the idea of sacrifice. They think they have to sacrifice something that they have. For example, I once said that they must sacrifice "faith", "tranquility", or "health." All these words must be taken in quotation marks. In actual fact, they have to sacrifice only what they imagine they have, and which in reality they do not have. They must sacrifice their fantasies. This is difficult for them, very difficult. It is much easier to sacrifice real things.

Another thing that people must give up is their suffering. It is very difficult also to sacrifice one's suffering. A man will renounce any pleasure you like but he will not give up his suffering. Man is made in such a way that he is never so attached to anything as he is to his suffering. And it is necessary to be free from suffering. No one who is not free from suffering, who has not sacrificed his suffering, can work. Nothing can be attained without suffering but at the same time, one must begin by sacrificing suffering. Now, decipher what this means. [Emphasis in bold is mine]

In a previous session, Laura asked the C's to comment on the nature of pity, and they stated: "Pity those who pity". To my understanding, most negative emotional states (anger, jealousy etc.) are usually a form of self-pity, and the act of observing these states in yourself without attachment is the beginning of "concrete forward paying motion" that allows you to begin the work. Only that way can you become brutally honest with the machine and identify false personality. OSIT

Very true IMO. And what is self pity? It is narcissism, an overweening love for the self that is born of an attempt to prop up a very fragile self image, fragile because it is not backed up by evidence, fragile because it is a false image. And why do we have a false self image? Because we built one in the place of our real selves, one that conformed to the image that our parents or peers demanded. Because our real selves were denigrated and rejected as children. Our real selves are children, with all sorts of hurts and childish feelings. But society, and therefore most people around us) does not accept that the simple feelings of a child could be expressed through an "adult". These denied and stuck childish, hurt feels are blocking our progress to more mature and pure feelings, and the correct functioning of our centers that would allow us to perceive things as they truly are.

 

[atiil]

Perceval these really are great thought provoking posts. To me it appears as if we have spent most of our life's creating fragile and false personas to deal with the hurt and pain - true or imagined - of ordinary life. Each time we create another prison and soon we have created so many conflicting personalities resulting in taking us far away from the very essence of being a human. We start losing the ability to communicate with our centers and the only way we can start to break out of these self built prisons is through the self observation of which you speak, the stealing of energy from one center to another makes perfect sense as one can become dominant and overpowering, emotions I have felt many many times in my life. However I really do think the EE program is having a positive effect as I do now catch myself during some impulsive moments and step back, but like you say self observation is something that needs to become part of the fabric of our lives for true growth. Thank you for your post it really struck a cord with me.

 

[Pierre]

Hi Perceval,

I have posted some similar realizations in this thread. Here is a copy of the post:

I've recently started to discover some Work related elements that were totally new to me thought they can seem quite obvious. Here's a description of those latest developments. If you suffer from a dead emotional center, you're not alone! Smiley

For years I had been self-observing, but I was only observing the observable. For years I thought I had managed to not be slave of my emotions but all I was doing was denying them, using them as fuel for emotional thinking (paranoia, fantasies, unrealistic theories...)

Emotions were repressed for at least two reasons. First, because of education: "only girls cry", "stop your tantrum", "you've no reason to be sad", "if you don't stop crying I'll slap you, so you've a good reason to cry"... Second, some childhood events were so traumatizing that fully experiencing them could have made me literally insane. So I learnt to repress, normalize, dissociate, deny, intellectualize emotions to a point where they became totally invisible (and all the more nefarious and damaging).

So during self-observation I could see the intellectual byproducts and consequences of emotions, I could see what triggered them, I could see the connection with various childhood traumas and events, I could also intellectually describe them, but something was missing.

Recently, I decided to discover them, face them, acknowledge them, live them. For that I used two methods. First, if I had an interaction with someone that generated negative emotions I tried to share what I was feeling (despite the overwhelming fear due to the unconscious reenactment of the child/narcissic parent interaction, so here you need really understanding people). Second when I was alone and perceived this slight malaise, I would ask myself, "what do you feel?" I would try to find the emotions, connect to it, and express it.

When I first tried to connect to these emotions, which were a totally new thing, a totally new world, it would manifest just as "something slightly off", "a subtle change", "a vague uneasiness" , then the predator mind would start saying "there's nothing", it's not important", "here is the logical explanation"... So in the beginning it was really difficult to know when a negative emotion was there.

But in such situation I was trying not to listen to the predator, and to see this unknown thing, sinking my attention in my tummy, allowing this thing to go out, expressing it spontaneously without filtering or censorhip and it would go out! Well it's not very nice or elaborate. It just like a child expressing himself in a very raw but very genuine manner: "I feel bad / betrayed / useless / angry / sad / ... or whatever combination of emotions.

I had read about connecting to the inner child years ago but the intellectual wall, the fear of suffering, the fear of doing what was forbidden, the fear of not being loved anymore, the fear of being scolded or punished, the belief he didn't exist, the belief that there were no more negative emotions (!) were probably too strong.

When I allowed the inner child to express himself it would be usually enough for him to calm down, the emotions and their intellectual byproducts would just automagically disappear.

Once I knew these emotions, I could start really avoiding to be slave of them. It's like this game where you're listening to a song, when hearing the first notes you've to guess what song it is and the music stop. But at least in my case I had first to know intellectually and emotionally the whole song to be able to really tame it and not deny it.

Another consequence is that when your negative emotions are allowed to be expressed or acknowledged the positive ones start to emerge. And such long forgotten emotions like joy, enthusiasm, lightness, playfulness reappear. And you don't have to stop this kind of emotions!

Well I won't whistle past the grave since I'm just at beginning of this process but I wanted to share this recent discovery that might helpful. It might sound very simple, in particular to female members who have this wonderful gift: an active emotional center.

To tame my emotions, I have to know them, to know them I have first to allow them to live / be expressed. To self-observe emotions, I must first have observable emotions. For years, I have missed this intermediate step trying to tame something I didn't know, trying to observe something that was invisible.

 

[Carlybee]

Insightful session! The dream work sounds Interesting too, is there any more info on doing this dream work?
Once again, great session, thankyou guys!

 

[Vulcan59]

Hi Carlybee,

A new topic, Dream Work has been started where you may get more insights. :)

 

[Carlybee]

Thanks Vulcan! I'm into it :D

 

[Jones]

I'll add my thanks for your posts on the subject of self observation Percival. They have been very helpful for me, and I have some thoughts and questions that I'll take to a new subject.

 

[Jones]

Oops just realised that Belibaste has also given some very helpful stuff and has also started a thread. Thankyou for that, I'll read that thread first. :)

 

[Mona]

The reference to Ark's journals was in terms of "how to think about a problem of the self" and write it down as a way to help identify the core issue which is then to be thought about before sleep. In thinking about the problem in a clear way before sleep, the idea is that this may help to bring up some other information from deep down that will help with the problem resolution. If and when this happens, the dream or information should be written down and recorded and used as further material think about before more sleep and dreams. That's how I understand the process. So in that respect it was about "controlling" dreams, but it is something that I believe unfolds naturally by following this procedure.

Thank you, Perceval, for making this more clear to me. Now I understand how the dreams can be used for further research into past lives. I had no idea that I could actually control my dreams every night so that I can get more details each night pertaining to one specific issue that comes up in my life over and over again. I am sure I wont have any problems trying this out on my own, I am actually excited, as dreaming is my most favorite part of my day. I loooooooooooooove to dream; the mystery in my dreams and the variety in them and vividness is just fascinating to me. Thanks Perceval. Also, Ark mentioned to keep the alarm clock as far away as possible from the bed. I actually have to have two of them, I have to wake up at 5 am and I am also deaf in one of my ears, so that's why I need to have two of them to make sure that I do wake up, just in case I end up sleeping on my good ear. But, I would not mind placing the alarm clocks further, as one of them is very annoying and loud.

Thank you

 

[Infiniteness]

Thanks :D

 

[Tigersoap]

I'll give an example, I am working on a project and I am really frustrated and angry because it does not work out well, I can't find the right way to do it.
I am attached to these negative feelings because I feel justified and it is almost impossible not to see for a short moment that I "enjoy" this state I am in.
It's very difficult to remove myself from these feelings and accept that it is the way things are, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.
Just because I actually "enjoy" this suffering I don't let go.
When I say I, it's not really me who likes that but the predator's mind and it feeds.

Well do act out this frustration and anger? Does it get you attention from someone else? It sounds like it may be propping up a belief that the world is out to get you, that you are repeatedly thwarted in your efforts, maybe that you "can never do get anything right". Do you ever say things like these when you are in that state?

Hi Perceval,

Anything I try to write seems hollow so I have to say yes, I do think these things but I don't think the world is out to get me.
I am most often fear to not do it right, but what is right really when I cannot see things clearly.
I have to go back to the root of these feelings and also see how some part of me is addicted to it.
On this, the EE helped to clear things up but I still have a long way to go.
Thanks.

 

[Ollie]

Thank you Perceval for your recent series of posts, a stark reminder of what we have to do on a moment by moment basis, and thank you Belibaste for your post and starting a new thread - which I'll read with interest (intellectually speaking!!! of course), of a way to connect with those repressed, and traumatised emotions.

 

[abbyjo]

"A key key to observing the self is to turn the attention simultaneously towards others to notice their true reactions to what you think you are doing or how you think you are being perceived."

from personal experience, this works best with very small routine changes, details tell the story of whether there is any "vertical thinking" going on...

Yes, one does have to be "RUTHLESSLY HONEST" (emphasis added!). With oneself, primarily....and I'm still a jerk sometimes, but less often, and for shorter periods and with much more awareness...here, guilt is a totally useless emotion...for me personally the desire not to be a jerk often comes from seeing my jerkiness displayed in front of me by my son...acting it out for me for our mutual awareness...and out of frustration, or both.

When i lived in Berkeley, there was a group founded by followers of Marshall Rosenberg. I went to a few different practice groups for a few years, now I do not go, but:

In a nutshell, communication = OBSERVATION + FEELING + NEED +REASONABLE REQUEST (one not violating free will).

A FEELING is something on this list: _http://www.cnvc.org/node/176

A NEED is something on this list: _http://www.cnvc.org/node/179

I have no affiliation with The Center for Non Violent Communication, but at one point I was hoping schools would teach it to kids…that was rather naïve, considering what i now understand to be reality…but the organization still exists: _http://www.cnvc.org.

The “trainings” get involved because most people have trouble with the first step, the OBSERVATION. This is intended to be OBJECTIVE, SENSORY observations, I see, I hear...or simple statements...when i hear you say ___, I feel ___ (and using the list helps). The other difficulty is honestly saying to someone while looking at them what the honest FEELING is…but once the first person does it, it becomes easier. This also makes it much easier to observe STS in action…a computer program is a computer program...once you see the pattern in yourself, it's very easy to see it everywhere and to stop feeding into it.

I would appreciate feedback on any/all of my posts...is this sort of thing helpful? My son & I discuss "perception" often...the thing we are reacting to is often our perception of reality...what we think we heard someone say...not what the reality actually IS or what the person actually DID either say or intend to say.