Session 3 September 2008

ayamaya

The Force is Strong With This One
Or maybe Bush has finally attained his apotheosis of terminal arrogance, so he won't even deign to know his fellow conspirators in crimes against humanity?

In which case he might even attain the state of 4D STS!! :evil:

(What Gurdjieff called 'Hasnumuss' [sp?] ?)
 
ayamaya said:
Or maybe Bush has finally attained his apotheosis of terminal arrogance, so he won't even deign to know his fellow conspirators in crimes against humanity?

In which case he might even attain the state of 4D STS!! :evil:

(What Gurdjieff called 'Hasnumuss' [sp?] ?)
Welcome to sott.net ayamaya,

It is likely that Bush is, in fact, a psychopath, and thus does not have the capacity to form a consistent value hierarchy that we hypothesize is required for 4D transition.

There was a long discussion about taxonomy differences (OP's, psychopaths, etc.) in this thread.

Also check out the excellent article:
The Psychopathic Origins of Bush/GOP Wars, Torture, and Injustice
 

anart

The Living Force
Kesdjan said:
Welcome to sott.net ayamaya,
It's actually cassiopaea.org

kesdjan said:
It is likely that Bush is, in fact, a psychopath, and thus does not have the capacity to form a consistent value hierarchy that we hypothesize is required for 4D transition.
What is a 'value hierarchy' and why is it necessary to transition to 4D?
 
anart said:
What is a 'value hierarchy' and why is it necessary to transition to 4D?
From positivedisintegration.com:
These quotes capture the heart of Dabrowski's Theory of Positive Disintegration. The theory describes a process of personality development - the creation of a unique, individual personality.

Most people become socialized in their early family and school experiences. They largely accept the values and mores of society with little question and have no internal conflict in abiding by the basic tenents of society. In some cases, a person begins to notice and to imagine 'higher possibilities' in life. These disparities are driven by overexcitability -- an intense reaction to, and experience of the day-to-day stimuli of life. Eventually, one's perception of reality becomes differentiated into a hierarchy and all aspects of both external and internal life come to be evaluated on a vertical continuum of 'lower versus higher.' This experience often creates a series of deep and painful conflicts between lower, 'habitual' perceptions and reactions based on one's heredity and environment (socialization) and higher, volitional 'possibilities.' In the developing individual, these conflicts may lead to disintegrations and psychoneuroses, for Dabrowski, hallmarks of advanced growth. Eventually, through the processes of advanced development and positive disintegration, one is able to develop control over one's reactions and actions. Eventually, development culminates in the inhibition and extinction of lower levels of reality and behavior and their transcendence via the creation of a higher, autonomous and stable ideal self. The rote acceptance of social values yields to a critically examined and chosen hierarchy of values and aims that becomes a unique expression of the self -- becoming one's personality ideal.

Dabrowski acknowledged the strong and primitive influence of heredity (the first factor) and the robotic, dehumanizing (and de-individualizing) role of the social environment (the second factor). He also described a third factor of influence, a factor emerging from but surpassing heredity - "its activity is autonomous in relation to the first factor (hereditary) and the second (environmental) factor. It consists in a selective attitude with regard to the properties of one's own character and temperament, as well as, to environmental influences" (Dabrowski, 1973, p. 80). The third factor is initially expressed when a person begins to resist their lower impulses and the habitual responses characteristic of socialization. Emerging autonomy is reflected in conscious and volitional choices toward what a person perceives as 'higher' in their internal and external milieus. Over time, this 'new' conscious shaping of the personality comes to reflect an individual 'personality ideal,' an integrated hierarchy of values describing the sense of whom one wants to be and how one wants to live life. With the new freedom and force of the third factor, a person can see and avoid the lower in life and transcend to higher levels. The 'ought to be' of life can replace 'the what is.' It is important to realize that this is not simply an actualization of oneself as is; it involves tremendous conscious work in differentiating the higher and lower in the self and in moving away from lower selfish and egocentric goals toward an idealized image of how 'you ought to be.'

The idealized self is consciously constructed based on both emotional and cognitive foundations. Emotion and cognition become integrated and are reflected in a new approach to life -- feelings direct and shape ideas, goals and ideals, one's ideals work to express one's feelings. imagination is a critical component in this process -- we can literally imagine how it ought to be and how could be in this establishes ideals to try to attain.
The ideal for an STS candidate would be emotional coldness and invulnerability. These are also 'ideals' (in so far as they can have ideals) for a psychopath, but the psychopath is not future-oriented and hence can't develop in either direction (osit). Basically the only difference is that the psychopath cannot delay impulsive behavior for future gratification (since they can't conceive of the future in the first placce).
Dabrowski's 'hierarchy of values' was related to FRV, a requirement for transition (according to the glossary).
Cassiopedia said:
Polarization to either service to others (STO) or service to self (STS) is usually seen as the central requirement for the passage.
 

anart

The Living Force
Kesdjan said:
From positivedisintegration.com:
Ah, Dabrowski's value hierarchy.  I think you might be blurring some lines here, or making some stretches to directly connect this to proving your idea that psychopaths cannot advance to 4D STS.

kesdjan said:
The ideal for an STS candidate would be emotional coldness and invulnerability.
sez who?

kesdjan said:
These are also 'ideals' (in so far as they can have ideals) for a psychopath, but the psychopath is not future-oriented and hence can't develop in either direction (osit). Basically the only difference is that the psychopath cannot delay impulsive behavior for future gratification (since they can't conceive of the future in the first placce).
Again, I think you are seriously blurring some lines here and making absolute statements about things that you cannot know for sure.  That is my main issue with what you have written.  You write it as if you know - when no one yet knows the details of such things as 'transition' to 4D STS - or STO for that matter.  I understand why you've attempted to incorporate Dabrowski's work here, and while Dabrowski covers personality development in a very interesting and well-developed way, he does not approach, specifically, the concepts of STO candidacy, nor STS candidacy.

As far as psychopaths, for all we know they are merely the 3D faces of 4D STS, or they could be 4D STS candidates in some cases, or not - we don't know for sure. One of the few things I've learned - for certain - about this subject is that we've seen, and understand, only a sliver of all the possibilities.

k said:
Dabrowski's 'hierarchy of values' was related to FRV,
Could you reference where this occurred? 

k said:
a requirement for transition (according to the glossary).
Yes, but just because someone has developed a higher level personality does not necessarily mean their FRV has 'risen' or 'fallen', as it were - there may be some causative connection, but that is not a certainty, at least not that has been proven at this point in time.  Again, it seems you are blurring lines here to fit your understanding, which while quite normal is a bit troublesome since you are writing about it as if it is a certainty.
 

Approaching Infinity

Administrator
Administrator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
Kesdjan, it's important to know that "hierarchy of values" is a multilevel concept. That means it can only be experienced by multilevel individuals, i.e. those with higher centres. A psychopath has no hierarchy of values, he only has what could possible be called "pseudo-values". He values whatever fulfills his whims and drives. That is not a value in the sense that Dabrowski uses the term. A value is an inner emotional experience of something higher versus something lower.

And having a hierarchy of values does not necessarily mean you have a "high" or STO FRV. A hierarchy of values is only the prerequisite for actually living that hierarchy. That requires Work on the self: understanding of self and others through reflection, intuition, self-history, self-observation, autopsychotherapy; self-control; authentism; autonomy, etc.
 
Kesdjan said:
Dabrowski's 'hierarchy of values' was related to FRV,
anart said:
Could you reference where this occurred?
Well, its just a simple logical step, really.

The C's have said that in order for a soul to develop (and transition to 4th density), a choice has to be made between STO or STS. The C's themselves have a hierarchy placing "free will" above all other values.

anart said:
Yes, but just because someone has developed a higher level personality does not necessarily mean their FRV has 'risen' or 'fallen', as it were - there may be some causative connection, but that is not a certainty, at least not that has been proven at this point in time.
That's true, but without any values whatsoever, FRV cannot change (since its definition is one's adherance to either STO or STS values).

Kesdjan said:
The ideal for an STS candidate would be emotional coldness and invulnerability.
anart said:
This also just a simple logical step from the definition of STS. In STS hierarchies, only the ruthless survive- the same as in our 3rd Density STS hierarchies. Positive emotions (compassion, empathy, etc.) obviously ruin any attempt to climb the latter.
Invulnerability is also obviously an ideal since there is constant fighting for the top of the pyramid, just as it is in our 3rd Density STS hierarchies.
Not saying these are the only ideals, but if STS by definition organizes as a hierarchy with power as the ultimate goal, then these are characteristics which would desirable.

Approaching Infinity said:
Kesdjan, it's important to know that "hierarchy of values" is a multilevel concept. That means it can only be experienced by multilevel individuals, i.e. those with higher centres. A psychopath has no hierarchy of values, he only has what could possible be called "pseudo-values". He values whatever fulfills his whims and drives. That is not a value in the sense that Dabrowski uses the term. A value is an inner emotional experience of something higher versus something lower.
Right, but I was thinking was that the STS candidate (and for now, lets assume that they are neccessarily non-psychopathic, souled individuals) experiences a kind of reverse multilevelness- that is, he will experience psychopathic characteristics as higher, and devalue the "higher emotions" that are developed in normal Positive Disintegration. Could a person with normal emotions and high overexcitablity go through a personality disintegration, suppess their emotions, and integrate at a lower psychopathic level while retaining goal-orientedness (something a psychopath doesn't have)?

anart said:
As far as psychopaths, for all we know they are merely the 3D faces of 4D STS, or they could be 4D STS candidates in some cases, or not - we don't know for sure.
I think you're referring to Laura's post in the OP thread that said:

Laura said:
But we have also looked at a most mysterious creature, the so-called "Essential psychopath," as Lobaczewski calls him, speculating that this may be a souled being that has consciously chosen STS and thus has opened the self to "perfect possession."

Here are a couple of excerpts on the subject of Hitler that may give an indication:
C's said:
Q: (L) Was Adolf Hitler possessed by demons or evil spirits?

A: Close.

Q: (L) Was Adolf Hitler under the control of the negatively oriented aliens?

A: Close.

Q: (L) Where is Adolf Hitler now?

A: Sleeping.

Q: (L) How long will he sleep?

A: Indefinite.

Q: (L) Will Adolf Hitler return to incarnation at some point in the future?

A: Yes.

Q: (L) Can you predict what kind of life he will lead in his future incarnation?

A: No.
...
Q: (L) What influence was Adolf Hitler under when he
undertook to do the things he did. Who was guiding him?

A: Lizards. Indirectly.

Q: (L) What connection did they use to influence him?

A: Projected beings of human type, inspired forms of great
Aryan spirits.
...
Q: (L) Now you say there are 36 million Nephilim heading this
way, are they 4th density beings?

A: No. They live in 4 d but are 3 d. They are as physical as
you. Behave like gestapo. Gestapo was inspired by
Nephilim through Lizard beings' influence over Hitler.
It was a practice run.
...
Q: (L) Why was Hitler so determined, beyond all reason, even
to his own self-destruction, to annihilate the Jews?

A: Many reasons and very complex. But, remember, while still
a child, Hitler made a conscious choice to align himself
with the "forces of darkness," in order to fulfill his
desires for conquest and to unite the Germanic peoples.
Henceforth, he was totally controlled, mind, body, and
soul, by STS forces.
There are several things about Hitler that I don't think quite fit the "essential psychopath" mold. E.g.

The Psychopathic God: Adolph Hitler p. 177 said:
Boyhood Plans For a New Reich
During their long evening walks and daytime excursions into the hills, castles and monasteries surronding Linz, Adolf talked interminably to his young friend about the social order he would establish in his new Reich. The concept was to him a holy mystery which he refused to profane by definition. But he was sure that one day a greate Reich would be established under his leadership. [...]
Ond day in 1939 the Fuhrer of the Third Reich made one of his many pilgrimages to the shrine of Wagner at Bayreuth. On that occasion he told Frau Wagner that his political career had been miraculously laid open before him one night in Linz when, as a boy, he attended a performance of Wagner's Rienzi. "That was the hour, it all began," he said.
The hour had struch one blustery day in November 1906 [when Hitler attended Rienzi and conceived of his destiny as creator of the Third Reich].
Compare this to Hare's Checklist:

Impulsive: In the pursuit of self-gratification, psychopaths make impulsive decisions with minimal foresight and planning. They often live day-to-day with no serious thought for the future. (Hare, 58-9) However, they are also capable of elaborate planning.
While it says they are capable of elaborate planning, I am not sure essential psychopaths would be capable of long-term planning over decades.

Other red flags are his paintings, which, while mediocre, he nevertheless spent considerable time and effort on for no apparent tangible reward. It seems to me that this would strike essential psychopaths as a useless activity only engaged in by "inferior" normal people.

And i'm not quite sure, but I think it was Cleckley who said suicides among (essential) psychopaths were extremely rare.

Anyway, I won't say anymore on the OP issue- it's too confusing.
:huh:
 

anart

The Living Force
Kesdjan said:
Kesdjan said:
Dabrowski's 'hierarchy of values' was related to FRV,
anart said:
Could you reference where this occurred?
Well, its just a simple logical step, really.
Your logical steps are actually presumptions and reaching - in other words, subjective interpretations.  As Approaching Infinity explained, hierarchy of values has nothing to do with FRV.  You might reach a broader understanding of these concepts if you question your assumptions more and defend them less.

kedjan said:
anart said:
As far as psychopaths, for all we know they are merely the 3D faces of 4D STS, or they could be 4D STS candidates in some cases, or not - we don't know for sure.
I think you're referring to Laura's post in the OP thread that said:
Not specifically, no.  I am referring to the entire body of research thus far.  You are again making assumptions and taking them for fact - thus wandering around in left field, assured you are correct.  No offense is intended, but the fact that you basically ignored the explanations thus far in favor of your presumptions suggests a significant lack of objectivity. 
 

Renaissance

Ambassador
Ambassador
FOTCM Member
Kesdjan said:
The C's have said that in order for a soul to develop (and transition to 4th density), a choice has to be made between STO or STS. The C's themselves have a hierarchy placing "free will" above all other values.
I think you may still be using an incorrect definition of 'hierarchy' in trying to make ends meet. As far as my understanding goes, Dabrowki's hierarchy does not place any value above another. A value has a natural progression of deeper experiences as it develops. For example, preservation of self can develop into preservation of family, then community, then country, then the human species. So it seems that one value isn't placed above another because it's perceived as more useful for development but because it actually shows a progression of development, or multilevelness. I think developing a hierarchy of values is more related to knowledge and understanding than being. Living it, as Approaching Infinity mentioned, is something different. Someone can have 'concern' about the injustices occurring to the people of the world and yet completely disregard their own family or even their own health and well-being. This would indicate a relatively low FRV even though some sort of hierarchy of values is known, I think.

I also agree that you seem rather on the defensive Kesdjan.
 

T.C.

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Approaching Infinity said:
Kesdjan, it's important to know that "hierarchy of values" is a multilevel concept. That means it can only be experienced by multilevel individuals, i.e. those with higher centres. (...) A value is an inner emotional experience of something higher versus something lower.

And having a hierarchy of values does not necessarily mean you have a "high" or STO FRV. A hierarchy of values is only the prerequisite for actually living that hierarchy. That requires Work on the self: understanding of self and others through reflection, intuition, self-history, self-observation, autopsychotherapy; self-control; authentism; autonomy, etc.
Can I ask, is there anyone here who has done the Work for a long time who, when they began, found it difficult to identify any higher values in themselves, but since applying the Gurdjieff/Cassiopaean framework to their lives now have them?

I have the worry that because I haven't been able to find anything like this within myself, that I am an O.P. But I hold onto the hope that I am only this way because of my sleep/hypnosis, and that these values will begin to come if I work to wake up.
 

webglider

Dagobah Resident
T.C. said:
I have the worry that because I haven't been able to find anything like this within myself, that I am an O.P. But I hold onto the hope that I am only this way because of my sleep/hypnosis, and that these values will begin to come if I work to wake up.
Posted on: Yesterday at 03:58:22 AMPosted
Isn't the desire for "values" a value in itself?
 

T.C.

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
webglider said:
Isn't the desire for "values" a value in itself?"
Sorry, but when I try to answer that question, I find there are a lot of different psychological factors that come into it which make it long and complicated and I tie myself up in knots. And, after some thought, I don't actually think this problem of "values" should rank very high on my list of priorities right now.

I hope this doesn't sound like I'm avoiding your question; but I realise I've got more practical things to work on first, before I venture into more philosophical questions. Thanks sincerely for trying to help.
 

Craig

Jedi Master
[quote author=T.C.]Can I ask, is there anyone here who has done the Work for a long time who, when they began, found it difficult to identify any higher values in themselves, but since applying the Gurdjieff/Cassiopaean framework to their lives now have them?[/quote]

Sounds like school kids collecting Pokemon cards or something... ;)

[quote author=T.C.]I have the worry that because I haven't been able to find anything like this within myself, that I am an O.P. But I hold onto the hope that I am only this way because of my sleep/hypnosis, and that these values will begin to come if I work to wake up.[/quote]

I think if you value truth above all else, then the rest will fall into place at the right time.
 
T.C. said:
Can I ask, is there anyone here who has done the Work for a long time who, when they began, found it difficult to identify any higher values in themselves, but since applying the Gurdjieff/Cassiopaean framework to their lives now have them?
Ironically, if you truly worry that you may be an OP, you already have "dissatisfaction with oneself", and therefore, some perception of multilevelness.

Positive Disintegration Glossary (positivedisintegration.com) said:
DISSATISFACTION, WITH ONESELF, is an early form of the dynamisms of valuation. It contains a strong emotional component expressed in disapproval of some of the elements of one's own mental structure. (1970)
As has been said before, if you worry that you may be an OP, you are not an OP (provided, of course, that you really worry, and are not merely saying so to "fit in").

anart said:
As Approaching Infinity explained, hierarchy of values has nothing to do with FRV.
I don't want to sound as if I'm rigidly defending my ideas, because I do think that I have expressed them in too absolute a manner, but I don't think that is quite what Approaching Infinity said.

Approaching Infinity said:
And having a hierarchy of values does not necessarily mean you have a "high" or STO FRV. A hierarchy of values is only the prerequisite for actually living that hierarchy. That requires Work on the self: understanding of self and others through reflection, intuition, self-history, self-observation, autopsychotherapy; self-control; authentism; autonomy, etc.
You can have a hierarchy of values, not live it, and remain at the same FRV. Still, a hierarchy of values is a prerequisite for change. Even if you do have an ideal and live it, it may have elements of both STS and STO, so you still remain at the same FRV. I can't understand any kind of development without some kind of idea of what to strive for (i.e. a value hierarchy). Thus, the concept of a value hierarchy is loosely related to the concept of FRV by virtue of the fact that it is neccessary for any development in the emotional/ethical dimension. What you incorporate into your value hierarchy determines whether it has any affect on FRV, osit.

As far as psychopaths as STS graduates are concerned, maybe it would be productive to talk about some things that led me to hypothesize that psychopaths do not graduate to 4th Density STS.

Entry in Cassiopedia: "Graduation to 4th Density" said:
Many speak of a balance of centers or functions as a necessary condition for graduation. We could say that the lessons are learned only when they form a balance that is not overly weighted on one side nor is anything skipped. Ra speaks of the balance and intensity of the rays or chakras. STO is balanced but STS graduates by a sort of omission, by skipping the heart chakra or higher emotional center and directly going to the higher intellectual functions for accessing 'magical' powers. The 4th Way says the same in different words, after all even the name of Gurdjieff's institute was the Institute for Harmonious Development of Man. The lower centers must be balanced and brought under the control of the magnetic center, which fuses with the higher emotional center and finally opens the higher intellectual center. Opening the higher intellectual center by other means is black magic and is no part of the 4th Way.
Here, I assumed (incorrectly?) that psychopaths do not have higher centers. My understanding was that 4D STS can perceive reality objectively (since they are connected to the higher intellectual center), but are limited by wishful thinking/fantasies that get in the way of their plans. I assumed that psychopaths, on the other hand, cannot perceive reality objectively, even in principle, because they don't have any emotions. Whereas, psychopaths were linked to pathogens that didn't know their actions would destroy both the host and themselves, I thought that 4D STS would, on some level, be aware of this, but ignore it due to wishful thinking.

Another thought was that all 4D beings have higher being, or "togetherness of experience", than densities 1-3. Several aspects about psychopaths, such as their inability to comprehend certain abstact concepts (future, emotions, facts, etc.), seem to indicate a very low "togetherness of experience", osit. For example, their inability to have or complete long-term goals seems completely at odds with 4D STS's manipulation of the entire human history.

Adding to the confusion, the C's and Lobaczewski seem to be talking about two different things:

Q: (L) That leads me to my next question. You've said that psychopaths are defective OPs?

A: Yes

Q: (L) Well, how do they get to be defective? I'm trying to figure out how to ask this... Are they defective because they're born that way?

A: Yes

Q: (L) Are they defective because of something that happened in their childhood?

A: Sometimes...
Lobaczewski uses "characteopath" to describe acquired emotional pathology and "psychopath" for inherited pathology.

Probably, OP/Psychopath/STS development is not that important of an issue anyway, and we should instead be focusing on the Work.
 

anart

The Living Force
k said:
My understanding was that 4D STS can perceive reality objectively (since they are connected to the higher intellectual center), but are limited by wishful thinking/fantasies that get in the way of their plans.
This is completely contradictory.  One cannot see objectively if one is prone to wishful thinking.  4D STS (hypothetically!) may be able to see 'more' than 3D STS - but that does not mean they see objectively. 

k said:
You can have a hierarchy of values, not live it, and remain at the same FRV. Still, a hierarchy of values is a prerequisite for change. Even if you do have an ideal and live it, it may have elements of both STS and STO, so you still remain at the same FRV. I can't understand any kind of development without some kind of idea of what to strive for (i.e. a value hierarchy). Thus, the concept of a value hierarchy is loosely related to the concept of FRV by virtue of the fact that it is neccessary for any[/b] development in the emotional/ethical dimension.
This makes little sense at all - you are, again, twisting things to make round pegs fit into square holes - and confusing concepts.  Is there a reason you are unwilling to grasp that you are mistaken? If you could open your mind a bit to grasp that, you might be able to make some progress in understanding these concepts.
 
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