Session 30 January 2010

[Bobo08]

Considering that they said schizoidia was "more or less" psychopathy, I'm thinking they're using the word more as a continuum. I'm still not sure exactly what they mean by it. Do they mean psychopathy the way Lobaczewski used it, i.e. hereditary deficiency in the instinctive substratum, of which one type is essential psychopathy? I really can't fathom 1 in 4 Americans being essential psychopaths. But if that number includes schizoids, skirtoids, asthenics, anankastics, histrionics, etc. it makes more sense. That raises the question: are these all distinct disorders, or is there an underlying similarity with additional variations?

An essential psychopath is a being with a motor- instinctive center and an intellectual center without the potential for a feeling center. They appear to process emotional content in the thinking center. Gurdjieff’s work suggests normal Men and Women have forgotten their emotion center. It is too painful and horrifying to FEEL with the insults of genital mutilation, vaccination, TV, parental abuse, educational abuse, etc. that are endured during childhood.

It is conceivable to me that a much larger percentage of men and women are effectively psychopathic, considering they exist primarily as beings with a motor-instinctive and thinking center, or a “chimera” as Mouravieff describes modern man. The contagion of psychopathy seems to induce the above described lack of emotional function. Certainly, man is capable of torturing, exploiting, and murdering his fellows if the feeling function is shut down by breeding, hypnosis, or education just like an essential psychopath who lacks the feeling function physiological substrate. The statistics of the C’s make more sense when “functional psychopaths” are included along with the genetic variety.

Hi go2,

The figure for USA is certainly unsettling but I'm not sure that "functional psychopaths" are included here. Psychopathy is genetic and has no possibility of change, while people whose consciences are asleep CAN wake up and change. I think it's more along the line AI said, i.e. all the "shades" of genetic-based character disorders are considered psychopaths, of which only a small portion are essential psychopaths. If that's the case, they would be much harder to identify (not that essential psychopaths are easy to identify in the first place), and the figure would make sense.

 

[Richs]

An essential psychopath is a being with a motor- instinctive center and an intellectual center without the potential for a feeling center. They appear to process emotional content in the thinking center. Gurdjieff’s work suggests normal Men and Women have forgotten their emotion center. It is too painful and horrifying to FEEL with the insults of genital mutilation, vaccination, TV, parental abuse, educational abuse, etc. that are endured during childhood.

It is conceivable to me that a much larger percentage of men and women are effectively psychopathic, considering they exist primarily as beings with a motor-instinctive and thinking center, or a “chimera” as Mouravieff describes modern man. The contagion of psychopathy seems to induce the above described lack of emotional function. Certainly, man is capable of torturing, exploiting, and murdering his fellows if the feeling function is shut down by breeding, hypnosis, or education just like an essential psychopath who lacks the feeling function physiological substrate. The statistics of the C’s make more sense when “functional psychopaths” are included along with the genetic variety.

I think this makes sense considering that polls have shown that the majority of people in the US agree with the idea that torture is justifiable in order to 'keep them safe'. Not much 'feeling' going on there!

 

[Aeneas]

It could perhaps also mean that they will have to go harder at each other as those of strong STS orientation have little concern for their fellow beings whether they be STS or STO, and are quite ready to knife even other fellow psychopaths on the hierarchical ladder if the opportunity arises. The corporate world shows examples of just such behaviour. A powerful STS psychopath would likely constitute quite rich food?

Considering food, in this context, is emotional and energetic, I don't know that I can agree with the idea that a powerful psychopath would be rich food. It might be food - but someone who has a more complex and in-depth emotional life would be more rich food - at least to my current understanding.

I can not say that I am sure either and surely more food is derived from someone on a STO path and with a rich emotional life. The thought was more in thinking of what the RA material were saying that a lot of people are neutral with not a strong direction going in an STS way or an STO way. If that is the case, then one could think that a powerful psychopath firmly on the STS pathway and with strong negative emotions could be relatively speaking good food. These strong negative emotions might well be very shallow and not very deep, but though intense when loosing to a stronger psychopath. This is admittedly just speculations while thinking in particular of corporate takeovers, where dog eats dog.

My thought on STS (psychopaths) battling each other is more about power and money. They would want to be "top dog" because here in 3D money and power are energy. So even if there is not as much "food" from another psychopath, you would then get there share of profits and power.

This, I think, is all that matters to psychopaths. The STS feeding would come from the "collateral damage" done by the in-fighting of psychopathic factions.

I also think that those who are on the top of this power elite dynamic enjoy watching the show as their underlings (or pets, if you will) do to each other what they are doing to the rest of humanity. It's all a game show to them.

my 2 cents

Thank you for explaining and to others likewise for input. Has helped to clarify the issue around psychopaths and food. And like you write, those at the top probably just enjoy watching what for them is a game show.

 

[Marcus-Aurelius]

Also, looking at the governments of the past century in China and Africa, it seems to me that populations with a LOW percentage of psychopaths require a more overtly brutal and repressive government. Countries with lots of psychopaths are more "open", i.e. "free market", "dog-eat-dog". They embody the psychopathic mindset and don't need as much prodding. Just an hypothesis...

That you for sharing this! I was wondering about it too, trying to reconcile the low numbers of psychopaths that were given in the session to the, like you said, some of the brutal and repressive government system there. But your hypothesis would explain it very well.

And it seems such a repressive government system also creates a ground for an even more psychopatic society. While majority of the population experience only scarcity of almost everything, the ruling class in contrary lives indecently and openly in opulence, luxury. And the simple minded population end up having a materialistic view of a better life, associated with high politic positions. And most of the time, the only way to arrive there is to become like the ruling elite; that is by violence, lies, corruptions, etc., creating a society where the innocents/victims are punished and the violents, liars, corrupted are praised. This creates a cycle of open violence against population which progressively becomes normal as intitutions like, police, tribunals have long ago ceased to play their role. At least, this is the way I see the development in my country. They are trying to make as much normal people as possible behave like them.

I would propose a slightly different hypothesis: populations with a low percentage of psychopaths do not 'require' an overtly brutal and repressive government, but they may be MUCH easier to bring under control by the latter. On the condition that a relatively small number of psychopaths have been pulling the strings for a long time, which probably is the case in China and many countries in Africa.

This can make sense considering the huge ignorance of the masses in such countries and the difficulty for normal people to spot psychopath which is also increased by ignorance, especially of basic psychiatry.
From this perspective, it can be hypothesized that the dictatorial regimes in these countries aim at creating conditions to break apart the traditionnal comunautarism system to install indivualism and materialism which is more suitable to psychopathy and, to also add Psyche's point, characteropathy development.

 

[Snow]

<snip>

The word “Holland” is frequently used to refer to the country “The Netherlands”, where “The Netherlands” is its official name. For us Dutch “Holland” is the name of either one of the 2 provinces (North Holland and South Holland). But, to confuse the matter, we use “Holland” as well, for example during soccer matches or when asked “Where do you come from?”

I actually never call either South Holland or North Holland "Holland" myself. The dictionary (why didn't I think of looking it up before) states that Holland means either 1) The Dutch provinces of North Holland and South Holland together, or 2) The Netherlands.
soure (dutch): http://www.vandale.nl/vandale/opzoeken/woordenboek/?zoekwoord=holland

Me neither. I meant the use of the word as part of the whole name North Holland and South Holland (I apologize for not being more clear in my explanation).

So, yes, in this case by Holland The Netherlands are meant. :)

I still agree :)

Though I find the whole Low Countries comments in the session around the Holland question kinda confusing so I'm not 100% percent sure...

As I understand it, they asked the Cs if there ever was a part of the world when the concentration of psychopaths was higher than in current Israel. They responded with "The Low Countries". Before we became a republic and later a proper country, The Netherlands and its surrounding area was known as the Low Countries in the late middle ages:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_countries

Later they ask the current percentage in “Holland”. And since the name Holland and The Netherlands are interchangeable for non dutch, they meant The Netherlands.
In the session Ailèn makes the proper remark that the low countries were from the past, but she also makes the “mistake” in reference to the present to call “The Netherlands” “Holland”. I think that’s where the confusion stems from.

I hope I clarified it a bit and not created more confusion. ;)

But, the idea that in the past a lot of psychopaths were living around here gives me food for thought. I think the Dutch WIC (A powerful trading company) had a high concentration:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_West_India_Company

War, slave trade, Privateering…

 

[Arne]

Interesting to see that the most effective modern tools for domination prefered by modern psychopaths, banking an the stock exchanges, came out of the "Low countries"

"In the 1980s and 1990s attention was focused on the ‘innovations’ known as derivative products: stock market indexes and futures and options contracts based on them. Nearly all of these ‘innovations’ were in use on the great Amsterdam Stock Exchange in the 1600s and 1700s. We find the same types of contracts, the same general rules of trading, the same methods of cheating the public and manipulating markets: stock sold on margin up to 80%; monthly settlement dates; put and call options with premiums payable immediately at the Bank of Amsterdam; the ‘ducatoon’ – an imaginary share representing 1/10 of a Dutch East India Company share, with a monthly settlement price.

_http://www.sustecweb.co.uk/past/sustec13-3/Lost%20Science%20of%20Money.htm

 

[sitta]

The psychopaths are out breeding normal men and women. Maybe those numbers are true. Yikes.

Another thing that struck me when I read the session was that Lobaczewski felt assured that psychopaths (or was it pathological deviants in general?) can never approach a majority of the population, much as they wishfully think they can teach their "experiential method" to normal people. So when I read the figure for Israel... :O

I think, that we have to remember, that Israel is a very young country, and that it's primary source of population was essentially from emigration.
That's the case for today's Israel too, even if on a smaller scale. So then it's not only possible but also probable, that big part of those people were and are psychopaths. They just moved from their former country to courren one. The world's average is still the same.
We know, that psychopathy contains very width spectrum of deviations, and as any other disorder could be in range from very mild to hard core cases.
I wonder what Lobaczewski would have told us about population, that is almost half/half psychopaths/normal people. Probably that it is easier to ponerize (is that a good word in grammatical sense?), and if it has some kind of external enemy it would survive. If not it would probably destroy itself in horrifying fashion.

I wonder if the scale of emigration and countries which are destination of those immigrants have higher percentage of psychopaths. Generally people that emigrate doing so in search of more stable and richer environment.

 

[Kasimir]

It could perhaps also mean that they will have to go harder at each other as those of strong STS orientation have little concern for their fellow beings whether they be STS or STO, and are quite ready to knife even other fellow psychopaths on the hierarchical ladder if the opportunity arises. The corporate world shows examples of just such behaviour. A powerful STS psychopath would likely constitute quite rich food?

Considering food, in this context, is emotional and energetic, I don't know that I can agree with the idea that a powerful psychopath would be rich food. It might be food - but someone who has a more complex and in-depth emotional life would be more rich food - at least to my current understanding.

I can not say that I am sure either and surely more food is derived from someone on a STO path and with a rich emotional life. The thought was more in thinking of what the RA material were saying that a lot of people are neutral with not a strong direction going in an STS way or an STO way. If that is the case, then one could think that a powerful psychopath firmly on the STS pathway and with strong negative emotions could be relatively speaking good food. These strong negative emotions might well be very shallow and not very deep, but though intense when loosing to a stronger psychopath. This is admittedly just speculations while thinking in particular of corporate takeovers, where dog eats dog.

I have been thinking the STS food source strategy couple of days now, and I came to conclusion that STS can't eat STO because the frequency doesn't match. I believe STS eats STS, those who are upper in hierachy eat those who are lower in their hierachy. At the top of the STS hierachy is of course the black hole. When they conquered and started to control us we became STS. Those STO candidates who manage to escape to 4D, are en route out of food chain (:)). These are just my thoughts...

 

[anart]

I have been thinking the STS food source strategy couple of days now, and I came to conclusion that STS can't eat STO because the frequency doesn't match. I believe STS eats STS, those who are upper in hierachy eat those who are lower in their hierachy. At the top of the STS hierachy is of course the black hole. When they conquered and started to control us we became STS. Those STO candidates who manage to escape to 4D, are en route out of food chain (:)). These are just my thoughts...

Yep, that's pretty much it and we are all STS - however, those of use with deep emotional lives are much better energetic food, so psychopaths are likely less 'delicious' - I would think - though I have no proof of this and could be mistaken.

 

[Kasimir]

I have been thinking the STS food source strategy couple of days now, and I came to conclusion that STS can't eat STO because the frequency doesn't match. I believe STS eats STS, those who are upper in hierachy eat those who are lower in their hierachy. At the top of the STS hierachy is of course the black hole. When they conquered and started to control us we became STS. Those STO candidates who manage to escape to 4D, are en route out of food chain (:)). These are just my thoughts...

Yep, that's pretty much it and we are all STS - however, those of use with deep emotional lives are much better energetic food, so psychopaths are likely less 'delicious' - I would think - though I have no proof of this and could be mistaken.

Thanks for your comment anart. I agree. Those STO candidates who make it to 4D likely have deep emotions and may become craved game.

 

[tracer]

Q: (Joe) That's 75 million people in the US.

(Burma Jones) That's a lot of psychopaths.

What accounts for the wide divergence of Timorone Cassiopaea’s statistics of the prevalence of psychopaths from the research of Dr. Robert Hare, who places the figure for North America at 1 percent? Is it possible that Timorone Cassiopaea has redefined psychopathy? Is it possible that Timorone Cassiopaea’s figure of 23 percent of the population of the United States being psychopaths is based on understanding psychopathy as existing on a continuum?

It is noted in the research that most psychopaths are males. This would mean that approximately 40 percent of American males are psychopaths. I have lived in the USA and met thousands of people in my lifetime. I have read all the research on psychopathy referenced on this forum. It is inconceivable to me, that Timorone Cassiopaea is accurate in these statistics, unless there is a different definition of psychopathy from that of Hare, Cleckley, and Lobaczweski. Or perhaps, I am missing something.

Hi,
And how do you classify souled individuals who have consciously decided to became evil? Do you think they are included in data given by Timorone Cassiopaea?
Psychopaths are corrupted OPs and these individuals are not. They do have souls. Black souls.
How do you think?

 

[Breton]

Q: (Joe) That's 75 million people in the US.

(Burma Jones) That's a lot of psychopaths.

What accounts for the wide divergence of Timorone Cassiopaea’s statistics of the prevalence of psychopaths from the research of Dr. Robert Hare, who places the figure for North America at 1 percent? Is it possible that Timorone Cassiopaea has redefined psychopathy? Is it possible that Timorone Cassiopaea’s figure of 23 percent of the population of the United States being psychopaths is based on understanding psychopathy as existing on a continuum?

It is noted in the research that most psychopaths are males. This would mean that approximately 40 percent of American males are psychopaths. I have lived in the USA and met thousands of people in my lifetime. I have read all the research on psychopathy referenced on this forum. It is inconceivable to me, that Timorone Cassiopaea is accurate in these statistics, unless there is a different definition of psychopathy from that of Hare, Cleckley, and Lobaczweski. Or perhaps, I am missing something.

Hi,
And how do you classify souled individuals who have consciously decided to became evil? Do you think they are included in data given by Timorone Cassiopaea?
Psychopaths are corrupted OPs and these individuals are not. They do have souls. Black souls.
How do you think?

Individually souled beings are not OPs nor can they be defective OPs, i..e psychopaths. I doubt the C's would use the word psychopath differently than Laura and this group. In fact, I believe they even show this in the discussion of Hitler, but it has been awhile and I may not remember exactly.

 

[WIN 52]

Only 1/2 way through so excuse if not valid.

The earthquake in China was just after the Chinese had sort of declared economic action that would have put the US in a not so good position, considering the economic pressure the US was under.

Can we say "sabre rattling" 4D style?

Now, Haiti has been hit. Could that be to prove the point to China, seeing that they are not as easily manipulated by psychopathic behaviour as the general public has low percentages affected by this type of thing?

On another note, in China there is only a small percentage of people who have money. Is there a connection between wealth and psychopathic behaviour, besides the obvious one?

 

[Yossarian]

On another note, in China there is only a small percentage of people who have money. Is there a connection between wealth and psychopathic behaviour, besides the obvious one?

I suspect so. In the psychopath saturated US, for example, I suspect that almost all the money is controlled by path's. I think this is a factor of their nature and because they are directed and enabled by the control system--and because in our world, money IS power.

It could be the esoteric meaning behind the scripture that it's easier for a rich man to pass through the eye of a needle than to enter the Kingdom of Heaven (i.e., a world where a psychological worldview is present and normal people protect themselves from psychopaths and related characteropaths-- at least that's one interpretation of the "kingdom" the other is 4d sto. )

The earthquake in China was just after the Chinese had sort of declared economic action that would have put the US in a not so good position, considering the economic pressure the US was under.

Very interesting speculation.

 

[Mr. Premise]

Seek10 this wording seems a little disturbing to me, calling it "feast time" when a new session is posted. That has connotations of 'feeding' in a negative way. I could be off base here, and I know English is not your first language, but it almost seems like feeding off the C's. I guess I would ask if you feel a kind of intensity while awaiting a new session? And what does that mean?

Once again thanks for the session. it is the feast time, when ever a new session is posted.