Session 30 January 2010

[shijing]

Whoa, this thread is moving at such a quick pace! I want to jump in to thank Shijing for his response and to express my complete gratitude for all that he is contributing to the forum as a whole - an impressive amount and level of work!

I don't think I'm doing any more work than a lot of people here, but I appreciate it JEEP -- its pretty enjoyable for the most part, so it doesn't feel like work. I think thanks should go out to everyone else who's been working on this thread as well, because its really taken off since the session was posted, and largely thanks to several people jumping in and collaborating on the data -- yay for networking :)

 

[Juba]

Quote from: Shijing
Well, things get speculative at this point as far as I know. The first psychopath mutation was said to have occurred 50,000 years ago [48,000 BC], so according to that date, none of the Kantekkians should have been psychopathic when they were first migrated here. As far as having 'strong psychopathic tendencies', I guess it depends on what you mean -- if psychopathy is genetic, then I'm not sure you can have a 'tendency' strictly speaking -- it would either exist or it wouldn't. Some may have had a more general sociopathic (the way we use the term) or characteropathic bent -- possibly with an environmental component, since we have no idea what conditions were like on Kantek before it blew up. Maybe they were constantly fighting huge beasties there or something, so needed to be a bit more naturally aggressive (we also know now that they were more technologically advanced than the Earth population when they first arrived, thanks to the information that Laura posted on AI's psychopathy question thread). I don't think we can say much more than that without more information, but it does seem that they have played a special purpose in the history of the human population since their removal from Kantek.

But what if it's genetically? New Man, Predator OP W/O the soul, empty container ready for 4D STS usage, after all 4D STS time travels are constantly performed with certain agenda in last 75000 years (time of Kantekkians arrival and 200 years later farewell for Neanderthal), what 4D STS did to them, mixed some genes with Neanderthals, could someone find session where Cs said that Neanderthal gene was involved in mutation that lead to psychopathy 50000 years ago (my sincere apology I have only Croatian translation of the same). I mean if they (4D STS) allready erased Neanderthal from the earth, perhaps they would like to do same to us, unless we transfer to 4D where all involved parties will be at same level.

Now, if it's genetically, than frequency of the body suitable for the soul will "lure" soul with equal frequency, body made for automaton, psychopath or OP can not accommodate soul and the number of OP is growing all the time, it means with the time there will be no bodies on the planet that can accommodate souls, no space to reincarnate, planet will be lost......,....for us and 5D.

 

[shijing]

But what if it's genetically? New Man, Predator OP W/O the soul, empty container ready for 4D STS usage, after all 4D STS time travels are constantly performed with certain agenda in last 75000 years (time of Kantekkians arrival and 200 years later farewell for Neanderthal), what 4D STS did to them, mixed some genes with Neanderthals, could someone find session where Cs said that Neanderthal gene was involved in mutation that lead to psychopathy 50000 years ago (my sincere apology I have only Croatian translation of the same).

Here you go, from session 9/3/08:

Q: (L) You've said that psychopaths are defective OPs?

A: Yes

Q: (L) Well, how do they get to be defective? I'm trying to figure out how to ask this... Are they defective because they're born that way?

A: Yes

Q: (L) Are they defective because of something that happened in their childhood?

A: Sometimes...

Q: (A***) Were they engineered that way somewhere along the line?

A: Some are engineered especially lately. But in general it is genetics due to mutation.

Q: (L) Okay, so if it's due to a mutation, when did the original mutation occur?

A: More than one occasion, but first time was fifty thousand years ago.

Q: (L) Is it true that psychopaths... well, we know they appear in the population at a certain percentage. Do they increase at various times in history so that they grow more numerous and kind of take over the planet and create a lot of destruction, and in creating this destruction, do they destroy themselves or reduce their own numbers significantly, kind of like populations of rabbits and foxes or something like that?

A: Very similar, yes.

Q: (L) Is there anything to my idea that the present strain of psychopathy comes from a crossing between Neanderthal and Aryan types in Europe or in Asia somewhere?

A: One strain, yes. But not all psychopaths.

Q: (L) What particular strain would come from the crossing of the Neanderthal and the Aryan cross?

A: The kind with the drive to destroy.

I mean if they (4D STS) allready erased Neanderthal from the earth, perhaps they would like to do same to us, unless we transfer to 4D where all involved parties will be at same level.

I think that's the general idea, and why there is supposed to be a 'new model' in development...

Now, if it's genetically, than frequency of the body suitable for the soul will "lure" soul with equal frequency, body made for automaton, psychopath or OP can not accommodate soul and the number of OP is growing all the time, it means with the time there will be no bodies on the planet that can accommodate souls, no space to reincarnate, planet will be lost......,....for us and 5D.

I think this scenario may be basically correct, and dovetails with what Laura suggested about spoiling the Earth as an active reincarnative school. This may have to do with the spindle cell discussion above, as well -- what if one of the features of the 'new model' of human is a lack of these spindle cells that faciliate normal incarnation (assuming that is what they do)? That would definitely shut the door on 5D, even as 4D STS used this 'new model' for their own purposes, possibly including their own version of reincarnation by downloading into these new 3D bodies.

 

[Juba]

Thank you Shijing,

About spindle cells. I might be wrong but somehow I got a feeling that spindle cells have something with intuition, kind a like spiritual intelligence and senses, if 7th chakkra, Third eye is Conglomerate of Hearth chakkra and Crown chakkra (open only to people with ESP abilities, extrasense), and spindle cells are pretty near to the trinity area: Thalamus Hypothalamus and amigdala, seems to me, with the way spindle cells are looking like they certainly provide some kind of connection, or even antenna role, super fast extremely well placed antenna and connection for, why not, super luminal communication. Again what is funny only individuals with soul have it, so if only people with soul have spindle cells, it would be logically to assume that spindle cells are connected to spiritual senses as much as for physical super coordination. Perhaps spindle cells and their amount in our brains are IQ-metre for our spiritual intelect.

 

[Approaching Infinity]

I find it interesting that the countries with high psychopathy populations are predominantly "white". Suggests a link with "Aryan genes"... Also, looking at the governments of the past century in China and Africa, it seems to me that populations with a LOW percentage of psychopaths require a more overtly brutal and repressive government. Countries with lots of psychopaths are more "open", i.e. "free market", "dog-eat-dog". They embody the psychopathic mindset and don't need as much prodding. Just an hypothesis...

Or perhaps related to frontal characteropathy. Perhaps the countries with low percentage of psychopaths, will have those with frontal characteropathy due to i.e. perinatal damage stand out as it were, since there is not many real psychopaths that will "take over" for them. Just thinking out loud.

This is a really good point. Lobaczewski even describes the family ruled by a frontal characteropath as the prime authoritarian model. Such parents are brutal, demanding, inconsistent, impulsive, etc. Psychopaths are more calculating and not as likely to "fly off the handle" with rage and aggression. Their respective ways of governing will most likely reflect those natures. If you look at "Western" government, they are much more psychopathic. Communism was more "in your face" and overtly authoritarian. Nazism was more paranoid. But Western types are more like the Israeli model: "By way of deception." The really sick stuff is more covert. At least, that's the way it appears to me.

 

[go2]

(Belibaste) We wanted to know the percentage of psychopaths geographically speaking, like in the US, Israel, UK.

(L) Alright, let's take them one at a time.

(Belibaste) USA?

A: 23 percent.

Q: (Belibaste) United Kingdom?

A: 14 percent.

Q: (L) That's because they all went to America. (laughter)

(Ailén) Israel?

A: 42 percent.

Q: (Belibaste) France?

A: 10 percent.

Q: (Burma Jones) Russia?

A: 17

Q: (Belibaste) What about some poor country like Ethiopia?

A: 3

Q: (Joe) That's 75 million people in the US.

(Burma Jones) That's a lot of psychopaths.

What accounts for the wide divergence of Timorone Cassiopaea’s statistics of the prevalence of psychopaths from the research of Dr. Robert Hare, who places the figure for North America at 1 percent? Is it possible that Timorone Cassiopaea has redefined psychopathy? Is it possible that Timorone Cassiopaea’s figure of 23 percent of the population of the United States being psychopaths is based on understanding psychopathy as existing on a continuum?

It is noted in the research that most psychopaths are males. This would mean that approximately 40 percent of American males are psychopaths. I have lived in the USA and met thousands of people in my lifetime. I have read all the research on psychopathy referenced on this forum. It is inconceivable to me, that Timorone Cassiopaea is accurate in these statistics, unless there is a different definition of psychopathy from that of Hare, Cleckley, and Lobaczweski. Or perhaps, I am missing something.

 

[shijing]

Thanks AI for bringing up this idea. Reading this brought up another thought that the C's mentioned in another session which seems related:

Q: (L) Why are there different races?
A: Many reasons. Experimental creations. Partly.
Q: (L) Where did the Orientals come from?
A: Same as all others. Result of experimentation.
Q: (L) Did they originate on this planet? Are they native to this planet?
A: Both. Orientals reserved for souls most advanced; Aryans most aggressive;
Negroes most naturally attuned to earth vibrational frequency. So are "native Americans".

I just remembered that Martha Stout said something in The Sociopath Next Door that jibes with the figure given for China (and GotoGo, if you're reading, this might ease your curiosity a bit about Japan). On p. 136 she says:

Intriguingly, sociopathy would appear to be relatively rare in certain East Asian countries, notably Japan and China. Studies conducted in both rural and urban areas of Taiwan have found a remarkably low prevalence of antisocial personality disorder, ranging from 0.03 percent to 0.14 percent, which is not none but is impressively less than the Western world's approximate average of 4 percent, which translates to one in twenty-five people. And disturbingly, the prevalence of sociopathy in the United States seems to be increasing...Apparently, cultural influences play a very important role in the development (or not) of sociopathy in any given population.

So her numbers for the Chinese population (assuming that Taiwan is approximately the same as China) are still low, but not too far off -- not nearly as much as those given for the USA. The interesting thing, though, is the correlation between this and the C's figures proportionally.

It is noted in the research that most psychopaths are males. This would mean that approximately 40 percent of American males are psychopaths. I have lived in the USA and met thousands of people in my lifetime. I have read all the research on psychopathy referenced on this forum. It is inconceivable to me, that Timorone Cassiopaea is accurate in these statistics, unless there is a different definition of psychopathy from that of Hare, Cleckley, and Lobaczweski. Or perhaps, I am missing something.

I know that its hard to conceive, and I'm not sure if we can make the definite assumption about the gender difference, although its possible. I think that one explanation might be something that has been mentioned already a couple of times, that being that psychopaths may not be distributed evenly throughout society -- they might clump, not only geographically, but also sociologically, and this might be part of the reason they aren't more visible. This is just one possibility.

 

[Niall]

What accounts for the wide divergence of Timorone Cassiopaea’s statistics of the prevalence of psychopaths from the research of Dr. Robert Hare, who places the figure for North America at 1 percent? Is it possible that Timorone Cassiopaea has redefined psychopathy?

I also wondered about this also go2. I don't think it's a matter of the C's "redefining psychopathy", but that our counting methods are skewed by a combination of things: difficulties calculating their numbers when they are hidden in plain sight, their control of the fields of psychology and psychiatry and some wishful thinking on the part of researchers who lean towards conservative figures because the higher ranges they meet in their studies are too shocking to take seriously.

 

[Approaching Infinity]

What accounts for the wide divergence of Timorone Cassiopaea’s statistics of the prevalence of psychopaths from the research of Dr. Robert Hare, who places the figure for North America at 1 percent? Is it possible that Timorone Cassiopaea has redefined psychopathy?

I also wondered about this also go2. I don't think it's a matter of the C's "redefining psychopathy", but that our counting methods are skewed by a combination of things: difficulties calculating their numbers when they are hidden in plain sight, their control of the fields of psychology and psychiatry and some wishful thinking on the part of researchers who lean towards conservative figures because the higher ranges they meet in their studies are too shocking to take seriously.

Considering that they said schizoidia was "more or less" psychopathy, I'm thinking they're using the word more as a continuum. I'm still not sure exactly what they mean by it. Do they mean psychopathy the way Lobaczewski used it, i.e. hereditary deficiency in the instinctive substratum, of which one type is essential psychopathy? I really can't fathom 1 in 4 Americans being essential psychopaths. But if that number includes schizoids, skirtoids, asthenics, anankastics, histrionics, etc. it makes more sense. That raises the question: are these all distinct disorders, or is there an underlying similarity with additional variations?

 

[gotogo]

I just remembered that Martha Stout said something in The Sociopath Next Door that jibes with the figure given for China (and GotoGo, if you're reading, this might ease your curiosity a bit about Japan). On p. 136 she says:

Intriguingly, sociopathy would appear to be relatively rare in certain East Asian countries, notably Japan and China. Studies conducted in both rural and urban areas of Taiwan have found a remarkably low prevalence of antisocial personality disorder, ranging from 0.03 percent to 0.14 percent, which is not none but is impressively less than the Western world's approximate average of 4 percent, which translates to one in twenty-five people. And disturbingly, the prevalence of sociopathy in the United States seems to be increasing...Apparently, cultural influences play a very important role in the development (or not) of sociopathy in any given population.

So her numbers for the Chinese population (assuming that Taiwan is approximately the same as China) are still low, but not too far off -- not nearly as much as those given for the USA. The interesting thing, though, is the correlation between this and the C's figures proportionally.

Thank you, Shijing (also for your new post on Language thread)! That is interesting.

 

[foofighter]

What accounts for the wide divergence of Timorone Cassiopaea’s statistics of the prevalence of psychopaths from the research of Dr. Robert Hare, who places the figure for North America at 1 percent? Is it possible that Timorone Cassiopaea has redefined psychopathy?

I also wondered about this also go2. I don't think it's a matter of the C's "redefining psychopathy", but that our counting methods are skewed by a combination of things: difficulties calculating their numbers when they are hidden in plain sight, their control of the fields of psychology and psychiatry and some wishful thinking on the part of researchers who lean towards conservative figures because the higher ranges they meet in their studies are too shocking to take seriously.

Considering that they said schizoidia was "more or less" psychopathy, I'm thinking they're using the word more as a continuum. I'm still not sure exactly what they mean by it. Do they mean psychopathy the way Lobaczewski used it, i.e. hereditary deficiency in the instinctive substratum, of which one type is essential psychopathy? I really can't fathom 1 in 4 Americans being essential psychopaths. But if that number includes schizoids, skirtoids, asthenics, anankastics, histrionics, etc. it makes more sense. That raises the question: are these all distinct disorders, or is there an underlying similarity with additional variations?

I had the exact same question as go2 in my mind when I read it, i.e. comparing to Hare's muuuuch lower number. If the definition is widened it makes more sense, and also taking into consideration that the method to detect psychopathology might be less than perfect. Might it also be related to what group is being studied? If the selection for Hare's number mainly comes from the prison environment, then that might simply not be an accurate reflection of society in general?

Another issue is: if that many are psychopaths, and we then add to that all the other mental disorders (schizophrenia, MPD, NPD, bipolar, etc.), wouldn't that total reach above 50%? If so, that is quite depressing, and leaves not much room for hope of it changing anytime soon.

 

[go2]

What accounts for the wide divergence of Timorone Cassiopaea’s statistics of the prevalence of psychopaths from the research of Dr. Robert Hare, who places the figure for North America at 1 percent? Is it possible that Timorone Cassiopaea has redefined psychopathy?

I also wondered about this also go2. I don't think it's a matter of the C's "redefining psychopathy", but that our counting methods are skewed by a combination of things: difficulties calculating their numbers when they are hidden in plain sight, their control of the fields of psychology and psychiatry and some wishful thinking on the part of researchers who lean towards conservative figures because the higher ranges they meet in their studies are too shocking to take seriously.

Considering that they said schizoidia was "more or less" psychopathy, I'm thinking they're using the word more as a continuum. I'm still not sure exactly what they mean by it. Do they mean psychopathy the way Lobaczewski used it, i.e. hereditary deficiency in the instinctive substratum, of which one type is essential psychopathy? I really can't fathom 1 in 4 Americans being essential psychopaths. But if that number includes schizoids, skirtoids, asthenics, anankastics, histrionics, etc. it makes more sense. That raises the question: are these all distinct disorders, or is there an underlying similarity with additional variations?

An essential psychopath is a being with a motor- instinctive center and an intellectual center without the potential for a feeling center. They appear to process emotional content in the thinking center. Gurdjieff’s work suggests normal Men and Women have forgotten their emotion center. It is too painful and horrifying to FEEL with the insults of genital mutilation, vaccination, TV, parental abuse, educational abuse, etc. that are endured during childhood.

It is conceivable to me that a much larger percentage of men and women are effectively psychopathic, considering they exist primarily as beings with a motor-instinctive and thinking center, or a “chimera” as Mouravieff describes modern man. The contagion of psychopathy seems to induce the above described lack of emotional function. Certainly, man is capable of torturing, exploiting, and murdering his fellows if the feeling function is shut down by breeding, hypnosis, or education just like an essential psychopath who lacks the feeling function physiological substrate. The statistics of the C’s make more sense when “functional psychopaths” are included along with the genetic variety.

I know a little of plant and animal breeding for specific traits, and I could imagine taking 100 human beings and selecting the most psychopathic male to breed the females for a few generations to create a race of psychopaths. That is being done with the psychopathic traits accorded status and economic benefits in a pathological society. The psychopaths are out breeding normal men and women. Maybe those numbers are true. Yikes.

The C’s statistics indicate that I have 23,000 psychopaths for neighbors in my hometown of 100,000. What a horrifying thought!

 

[gotogo]

An essential psychopath is a being with a motor- instinctive center and an intellectual center without the potential for a feeling center. They appear to process emotional content in the thinking center. Gurdjieff’s work suggests normal Men and Women have forgotten their emotion center. It is too painful and horrifying to FEEL with the insults of genital mutilation, vaccination, TV, parental abuse, educational abuse, etc. that are endured during childhood.

Hello go2, I think we can look at what kind of 'energy' is behind each 'center' also. Gurdjieff said usually one's emotional center is not working with its proper energy which is Hydrogen 12. And from 'Food Diagram' possible Hydrogen 12 are Si 12 AKA 'sex energy' that is 'natural' results of the 1st 'food' octave or Mi 12 that can be only available from the 3rd 'impression' octave through 'self-remembering'. And my understanding and observation is that using 'sex energy' for emotional center leads to wrong work of center and if Mi 12 is used for emotional center, which actually leads to 'connect' to the higher emotional center. Also to my observation, that is when one can 'see' many contradicted emotions at the same time, which actually fits into the Gurdjieff's definition of 'conscience' (I posted this line of thoughts with references before also).

Actually what I posted in this thread before was with this line of thoughts. I hope it makes sense to you also. :)

 

[Niall]

The psychopaths are out breeding normal men and women. Maybe those numbers are true. Yikes.

Another thing that struck me when I read the session was that Lobaczewski felt assured that psychopaths (or was it pathological deviants in general?) can never approach a majority of the population, much as they wishfully think they can teach their "experiential method" to normal people. So when I read the figure for Israel... :O

That raises the question: are these all distinct disorders, or is there an underlying similarity with additional variations?

I'm thinking there must be an underlying similarity, and that the C's are implying this by referring to psychopaths "loosely" and not within the definitions we've inherited from Lobaczewski and others. Maybe there isn't such a clear distinction between essential psychopaths and the lesser deviants that "break down" during their lifetime. Can a "sociopath", one made psychopathic by environmental factors, "improve" its condition until it's "on the level" with one born that way? Can genes be turned on or off by external influences, enabling the other disorders that orbit essential psychopathy to "mutate" into essential psychopaths without having to be born that way?

Maybe the overall numbers of psychopaths (as a continuum) has increased exponentially in recent years because as the Wave approaches, they're "waking up" to their mission density profile and grooving into ever denser negative FRV?

 

[Sodajaxon]

could it be that some of these psychopaths are in jail or prison, and not able to mingle with society at large?

i read too that the failed psychopath are the ones that get caught, and the real ones, we would never know.

or rather one would need a very honed sense of 'seeing' in order to identify them.