Session 4 April 2015

[Εἰρήνη]

If you are interested in number esotericism, you might want to read Walter Burkert's "Lore and Science in Ancient Pythagoreanism". It's probably the best book on the origins of mystical numbers and what they may or may not have meant I've read thus far. He pretty much strips away all the BS and tries to get back to the origins. This should be read in conjunction with "Redefining Ancient Orphism" by Radcliffe Edmonds.

From this study, it can be suggested that all the number business that came AFTER the Pythagoreans, including that in the OT which was written in the early third century, came from this really fascinating kind of early fundamentalism. It might even be suggested that, since the Pythagoreans were also obsessed with ritual purity and pure foods that the ideas for many of the legalistic nitpicking of the OT came from them, too.

The Pythagoreans are known for their theory of the transmigration of souls, and also for their theory that numbers constitute the true nature of things. They performed purification rites and followed and developed various rules of living which they believed would enable their souls to achieve a higher rank among the gods. Much of their mysticism concerning the soul seems inseparable from the Orphic tradition. The Orphics included various purifactory rites and practices as well as incubatory rites of descent into the underworld. Apart from being linked with this, Pythagoras is also closely linked with Pherecydes of Syros, the man ancient commentators tend to credit as the first Greek to teach a transmigration of souls. Ancient commentators agree that Pherecydes was Pythagoras's most "intimate" teacher. Pherecydes expounded his teaching on the soul in terms of a pentemychos ("five-nooks," or "five hidden cavities") — the most likely origin of the Pythagorean use of the pentagram, used by them as a symbol of recognition among members and as a symbol of inner health (eugieia Eudaimonia).

Interestingly, the there was a guy named Mousaios (or Musaeus) who was said to be either the son or disciple of Orpheus, the probable origin of the name of "Moses" in the OT.

Anyway, the two books mentioned above are among the most interesting and informative I've ever read on this topic - just LOADED with information and obscure stuff that can only be gleaned by dedicated scholars.

Laura, thank you very much for your response and guidance. I am going to get the two books you mentioned immediately. I can't wait to read them.

 

[Al Today]

[...]
And that's also why personal responsibility is so important because the fall of one member can affect all the rest.

This statement is so profound where my one reply can never even begin to state the implications. I must have lost my way of thinking of the individual. Although I do agree that nobody can do this alone. To shoulder this burden of responsibility is immense in that the one can bring down the efforts of many. For myself, I do not think I can handle the burden of being responsible for others in this respect. What I mean is that if I cannot perform, if I cannot Do, cannot Be, I do not want others to suffer for my actions/in-actions. I do not think I could bear the sorrow of halting someone elses progression.

 

[Al Today]

I must have lost my way of thinking of the individual.
[...]

I think this shows I just do not understand the bigger picture which many of you seem to be aware of. I have not dived in totally and am a "part-time" forum member. Have been to no gatherings nor given anything extraordinary besides perusing this forum and make casual comments here and there. I do want to thank you all for bearing with me and letting me "hang out". Perhaps when the time is needed, I can come through with something of substantial effort where someone receives help/support.

 

[Εἰρήνη]

Laura, I am also curious about this thing:

if a potentially souled individual conceives a child with an organic portal, what are the chances of the baby developing an appropriate genetic makeup that will be able to accommodate a soul? And what are the chances of the baby becoming an OP? 50/50?

 

[Laura]

[...
Anyway, the two books mentioned above are among the most interesting and informative I've ever read on this topic - just LOADED with information and obscure stuff that can only be gleaned by dedicated scholars.

As in colleges and universities there are the 100 level courses, the 200 level courses, the 300 level courses and so on... All of a building block nature. If one would take a 300 level course without the prerequisite 100 & 200 level, well... That'd be a waste of time, doomed for frustration and failure. Is the implication here that these may be like a 500 level course? Without background, attempting to comprehend what the writer is saying is lost... Then again, with time and continued learning, the pieces of the puzzle may fall into place...

Well, both books are, indeed, pretty heavy duty on erudition etc. However, a reasonably intelligent person can read them and get a good grip on the topics - I think. They are both heavy duty academics writing for academics, and Burkert takes a little getting used to because he writes in German and I read him in translation.

But, once you do read these books, you never look at the OT the same way again because you see the source of much of its doctrine though, of course, Burkert and Edmonds never make such a claim.

Philo was also pretty interested in Pythagoras and all the apparent coded numbers he found in the OT and because of the name "Moses", apparently the tale had been fabricated that he was the teacher of Pythagoras. How else could they explain the many correspondences? Poor Philo truly believed that his scriptures were the most ancient in the world when, in fact, they were quite recent. No wonder he went bananas seeing all kinds of connections to Greek philosophy etc: that's where the author(s) got much of it!

 

[Laura]

Laura, I am also curious about this thing:

if a potentially souled individual conceives a child with an organic portal, what are the chances of the baby developing an appropriate genetic makeup that will be able to accommodate a soul? And what are the chances of the baby becoming an OP? 50/50?

Well, I'm not sure that you can apply ordinary genetics rules to the thing. Recall the Cs said that sometimes, the intending soul can influence the genetics prior and after incarnating. While there are certainly issues that must apply MOST of the time, we have to leave the door open to the exceptional cases. We don't even know if the "soul genes" are sex-linked in which case a particular set of rules might apply.

 

[Palinurus]

If you are interested in number esotericism...

As it so happened, today I stumbled upon a stunning example of some sort of numerical sleight of hand (in my eyes):

_http://www.fivedoves.com/tng/gospelinstone.htm

_http://homepage.virgin.net/vernon.jenkins/oracle.htm

Hope this adds something of value. :)

 

[sitting]

That's probably because in a network where there is some connection, what is gained by one, can be added to all. And that's also why personal responsibility is so important because the fall of one member can affect all the rest.

Hi Laura,

That concern was in the back of my mind the whole time.
And maybe they used the phrase "proper networking" for good reason.

When you (willingly & willfully) connect your chakras with those of others, you're in essence exposing your own energy field. With the others doing the same in return. That's a rather big decision and responsibility. On all parties. I'm very grateful you brought this out in such clear fashion.

The wrong intent on the part of some, may indeed damage the whole. And that's why I thought the connection ought to be made individually first--before a group link. But I now understand what your interpretation is. And I totally agree.

Thank you.

 

[Al Today]

NUMBERS...

There was a one day convention in town this one weekend. Three(3) guys met in the hotel lobby where a room costs thirty(30) dollars per night. These three guy talked amongst themselves. "We are only going to be here one(1) night so why don't we split the price and save some money?" So, these three dudes each pitched in 10 dollars for the 30 dollar a night room...
After they registered, and were in their room, the night manager walked into the office and said: "It's only 25 dollars tonight, special convention rate." And then the manager gives a bellboy five(5) dollars to take back to the three(3) gentlemen.
So what we have here is:
3 guys pitched in 10 dollars a piece for the 30 dollar a night room.
The bellboy, in the elevator thought to himself: "5 dollars don't divide equally for the three(3) gentlemen. So... I'll give them back one(1) dollar each and keep two(2) of the five(5) dollars for myself.".
So... Each guy gets back one(1) dollar and the bellboy kept two(2), okay?
That means, each guy spent nine(9) dollars.
The bellboy kept two(2)
Three(3) times Nine(9) equals 27, yes?
The bellboy kept two(2)
That's a total of twenty Nine(29) dollars, eh?
Where is the missing dollar?
Numbers, you gotta love them...

 

[Human]

NUMBERS...

There was a one day convention in town this one weekend. Three(3) guys met in the hotel lobby where a room costs thirty(30) dollars per night. These three guy talked amongst themselves. "We are only going to be here one(1) night so why don't we split the price and save some money?" So, these three dudes each pitched in 10 dollars for the 30 dollar a night room...
After they registered, and were in their room, the night manager walked into the office and said: "It's only 25 dollars tonight, special convention rate." And then the manager gives a bellboy five(5) dollars to take back to the three(3) gentlemen.
So what we have here is:
3 guys pitched in 10 dollars a piece for the 30 dollar a night room.
The bellboy, in the elevator thought to himself: "5 dollars don't divide equally for the three(3) gentlemen. So... I'll give them back one(1) dollar each and keep two(2) of the five(5) dollars for myself.".
So... Each guy gets back one(1) dollar and the bellboy kept two(2), okay?
That means, each guy spent nine(9) dollars.
The bellboy kept two(2)
Three(3) times Nine(9) equals 27, yes?
The bellboy kept two(2)
That's a total of twenty Nine(29) dollars, eh?
Where is the missing dollar?
Numbers, you gotta love them...

"Illogical" puzzle... :)

3 guys gave 9$ each = 27$, out of which they paid for the room 25$ and the bellboy took the remaining 2$.
No missing money after all, when "room service" is included into the account. ;)

And BTW, thank you all for this amazing session and all the discussion arisen from it.

 

[David]

I must have lost my way of thinking of the individual.
[...]

I think this shows I just do not understand the bigger picture which many of you seem to be aware of. I have not dived in totally and am a "part-time" forum member. Have been to no gatherings nor given anything extraordinary besides perusing this forum and make casual comments here and there. I do want to thank you all for bearing with me and letting me "hang out". Perhaps when the time is needed, I can come through with something of substantial effort where someone receives help/support.

More or less, the same here... except I’m more of a lurker...

NUMBERS...

{snip...}

So... Each guy gets back one(1) dollar and the bellboy kept two(2), okay?
That means, each guy spent nine(9) dollars.
The bellboy kept two(2)
Three(3) times Nine(9) equals 27, yes?
The bellboy kept two(2)
That's a total of twenty Nine(29) dollars, eh?
Where is the missing dollar?
Numbers, you gotta love them...

Seems like misdirection.... original 30 – 5 change = 25 men get 27 – 2 tip = 25 osit

The two should be subtracted... the number should come to 25, instead of alleging it to be 30.

I think the puzzle, might make for example, of Laura’s saying, ‘believing lies makes one stupid,’ though I’m more like blunt instrument in tool box, as such puzzles frazzle my brain, and I think of the world, and see the same thing, bedazzling brain frazzling slights of logic, that’s presented as truth. osit

Thanks TC

And Thanks Laura, and crew, and forum members... god my brain hurts, probably made mistake LOL

 

[Mr.Cyan]

Many thanks Laura for the recommendation, much appreciated. I have an interest too in in finding out more about numbers, and their deeper/esoteric meanings - and will definitely look to get these books.

 

[fabric]

NUMBERS...

{snip...}

So... Each guy gets back one(1) dollar and the bellboy kept two(2), okay?
That means, each guy spent nine(9) dollars.
The bellboy kept two(2)
Three(3) times Nine(9) equals 27, yes?
The bellboy kept two(2)
That's a total of twenty Nine(29) dollars, eh?
Where is the missing dollar?
Numbers, you gotta love them...

It adds up to $30 I think. If they got $5 back (so $25 to split between them), and tipped the bell boy $2 and kept the other $3, they now have $28 to split between them. The "missing dollar" is in the change (25/3 = $8.33) - If they each got a dollar back, then they really paid $9.33 each so $9.33 x 3 = $27.99

add 2 and it's $29.99

so real question is where did the other penny go? :P

 

[goyacobol]

NUMBERS...

{snip...}

So... Each guy gets back one(1) dollar and the bellboy kept two(2), okay?
That means, each guy spent nine(9) dollars.
The bellboy kept two(2)
Three(3) times Nine(9) equals 27, yes?
The bellboy kept two(2)
That's a total of twenty Nine(29) dollars, eh?
Where is the missing dollar?
Numbers, you gotta love them...

It adds up to $30 I think. If they got $5 back (so $25 to split between them), and tipped the bell boy $2 and kept the other $3, they now have $28 to split between them. The "missing dollar" is in the change (25/3 = $8.33) - If they each got a dollar back, then they really paid $9.33 each so $9.33 x 3 = $27.99

add 2 and it's $29.99

so real question is where did the other penny go? :P

Well, I think Gurdjieff would be ashamed of all of us but I have been following this conversation so long I decided to add my 1 cent so to speak. Just recall that the bell hop said he kept $2 so add the 1 penny to that $2 and you get $2.01. That dirty little bell hop lied and said he only kept $2 when he really kept $2.01. Then if you add the $2.01 to the 27.99 you have the original $30.00 dollars if the room rate stayed the same. :P

 

[sitting]

Three(3) times Nine(9) equals 27, yes?
The bellboy kept two(2)

Hi AL,

Yes, three x nine does indeed equal 27. But twenty five plus three gives 28.