Show #24: Who was Jesus?

Laura

Administrator
Administrator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
Aragorn said:
Yes, that was very interesting! I could have got it wrong, but I was left wondering about a few things regarding the gap:

- Why did the falsifies need specifically the environmental/celestial data during this gap to add credibility? Couldn't they have used some other events during that time to "tie it in" chronologically? I mean, if the celestial events were from the east, and they were transferred to as happening in the west, couldn't they be easily disproved? Then again, if there is no other sources from that time, there's nothing to compare the information with.
1) there was a big religious battle going on at the time. The pagans were claiming that the catastrophes were due to the abandonment of the old gods. The Christians were claiming that the true god was simply testing humanity or punishing.
2) these events were weapons in this war.
3) the events built up to a particular event that was transferred to Gregory of Tours history that makes absolutely no sense in a Western European context, but could be the key as to what literally destroyed Rome and buried it under 27 feet of ocean silt. Moving that event out of the way was crucial.
4) such individuals are, by nature, lazy. Plus, they probably thought that people would not forget the events, though they could claim it happened somewhere else if somebody brought it up.

Aragorn said:
- What did the falsifies gain by removing the celestial data from the east during this gap? I mean - and I could have it wrong - if the reports from the east appeared again after the gap, then the evidence for cometary activity would still be there for the afterworld to read. Was there something else and special going during this period of the gap, say political, that the celestial events in the east had to be erased?
See above. The reports AFTER this gap, which contained the slam-dunk event, were rather prosaic and mild... things were calming down. The next big things that happened were the Avars followed by the Arabs.

Aragorn said:
Btw, the magnificent book by Courtney can also be found as a kindle version, and its pretty cheap, too:

Link: http://amzn.com/B006R3CPG6

Reading is a continuous "slap to the forehead" experience. Why haven't I previously noticed these glaring and blatant discrepancies in the gospels? Brilliant book!
Yes, it is an excellent book, isn't it? A real treasure. And written so entertainingly too!
 

Joe

Administrator
Administrator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
Mac said:
Great show! An intriguing idea for sure. I'll be doing some study on Julius Caesar. It may be awhile before I can agree that he is the greatest man in history, but I think it's time to remove the feeding tubes from Jesus.
For me he's been on life support for sometime. Looks like he is not going to recover. :deadhorse:

Mac
Yeah, it's going to be difficult for a lot of people. After almost 2 millennia, so many people have "taken Jesus into their hearts" (literally almost) that it'll feel like a personal loss to some to have to unseat him, even those who aren't 'true believers'. The whole thing is looking pretty insidious. A 2,000 year psyop perpetrated on the masses.

As for the 'greatest man that ever lived' thing, I'm not ready to go there yet either. This discovery is a bit too recent for me, and I'd rather not assume anything right off the bat given that we are dealing with events that transpired 2,000 years ago and many of the details still need to be dug up and the truth sorted from the fiction. It might be useful to consider the whole situation from the broad perspective of human life on planet earth.
 

Joe

Administrator
Administrator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
angelburst29 said:
Through out the broadcast, I kept wondering, "Does this "Truth" disseminated into the ether's of the World Wide Web, change Gaia's frequency into a more harmonic equilibrium for our Species survival?
I'd like to think so, because, to be honest, that's about all we can hope to do, broadcast a 'truth signal' and hope that it modulates the dominant lie signal to some extent, but I suppose it would be hard to prove it! Nice idea though.
 

Joe

Administrator
Administrator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
HowToBe said:
It's amazing because history is such a large part of our worldview. It seems like falsifying history is as fundamental a problem as falsifying laws of physics or something - how can we behave intelligently when our worldview is based on a chopped-up mess?

The thing that's boggling to me is: How much of our history has been completely lost? If we could magically reassemble all remaining recorded truth concerning humanity's past, how big would the black spaces be, for which the data has been completely lost or destroyed?
Very good question, and ya know, that second paragraph made me think immediately of a 'top secret" CIA or FBI etc. document that has about 90% of the words 'redacted', or blacked out.
 

Thomas Alan

The Living Force
Laura said:
Mac said:
Great show! An intriguing idea for sure. I'll be doing some study on Julius Caesar. It may be awhile before I can agree that he is the greatest man in history, but I think it's time to remove the feeding tubes from Jesus.
For me he's been on life support for sometime. Looks like he is not going to recover. :deadhorse:

Mac
Read the following books:

Escape From Evil by Ernest Becker
The Ancient City by Fustel de Coulange
Caesar: Politician and Statesman by Mattias Gelzer
Divus Julius by Weinstock
Julius Caesar by Philip Freeman
Et tu Judas! Then Fall Jesus by Gary Courtney
and of course, Carotta's work.

And keep in mind that the extant contemporary histories from which the data is drawn were hostile, the friendly histories were "lost" quite conveniently. So if you read with Ponerology in mind, everything begins to fall into place.
I have Courtney and Gelzer books ordered. And the kindle version of the complete writings of Caesar on hand. Learning is Fun!

Mac
 

Joe

Administrator
Administrator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
Laura said:
Gawan said:
I only have questions: This suggests that it also was a conscious act to do it that way, or that these people had more knowledge? Or is there possibly a 4d-sts influence involved? At least this must have been an agenda imo.
Read the response to WK above. One doesn't have to bring in any 4D STS explanations for what happens naturally in an STS world.
Yeah, if you factor in psychopathy, you've said, and explained, a lot, although that doesn't exclude the possibility of some super secret group of initiates or something that had some preternatural understanding or belief system about controlling the world or masses of people, but the chance of finding proof for such an idea is rather slim to say the least. So while such musings can be held as an idea in the back of the mind, the actual historical details that CAN be uncovered, and the pieces that CAN be put together to form a more objective and plausible history are much more sensational precisely because they are historically provable and plausible to the 'rational mind'.
 

Laura

Administrator
Administrator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
Perceval said:
Laura said:
Gawan said:
I only have questions: This suggests that it also was a conscious act to do it that way, or that these people had more knowledge? Or is there possibly a 4d-sts influence involved? At least this must have been an agenda imo.
Read the response to WK above. One doesn't have to bring in any 4D STS explanations for what happens naturally in an STS world.
Yeah, if you factor in psychopathy, you've said, and explained, a lot, although that doesn't exclude the possibility of some super secret group of initiates or something that had some preternatural understanding or belief system about controlling the world or masses of people, but the chance of finding proof for such an idea is rather slim to say the least. So while such musings can be held as an idea in the back of the mind, the actual historical details that CAN be uncovered, and the pieces that CAN be put together to form a more objective and plausible history are much more sensational precisely because they are historically provable and plausible to the 'rational mind'.
And that is, ultimately, what the whole Cassiopaean Experiment is about, isn't it? 10% inspiration and 90% perspiration?
 

chrismcdude

Padawan Learner
Wow. That was incredible, and awe-inspiring. I was just blown away by all the information that was presented in the show and by the implications of it all.

I read Shakespeare's 'Julius Caesar' when I was in school. The story basically portrays Caesar as a successful military general who was assassinated by a group of jealous conspirators, among whom were men like Brutus, who enjoyed Caesar's trust ('Et tu Brutus, then fall Caesar'), because Caesar was getting over-ambitious. And then after the assassination, Mark Antony, Caesar's right hand man, chides the Roman mob and reminds them of Caesar's good deeds and his will in which he left huge tracts of land and money for them, and instigates the mob against the conspirators.

Now obviously, this was a Shakespearean play and parts of it may have been historically inaccurate (I absolutely loved it because of the richness of language and emotions), but it's very exciting to see how the oligarchic ruling class of that time would have felt threatened by this man, who was already a favorite among the people and would have conspired to have him removed, taking advantage of his trust or forgiveness.

The first order of things for me would be to read everything I can about Caesar and some factually accurate accounts of his life and his ideas. This idea that the story of Jesus was based on an actual historical figure, whose life was a reflection of his values, and someone who we can actually read about is just so damn exciting. It has to be the, dare I say, the most profound re-discovery of the millenium. I knew this was going to be another mind-opening session, but it turned to be so much more. All I can do is quote from Hamlet, when he says to Horatio,

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
Having said that, all this info has opened a small can of worms in my head. There are threads dangling around that need to be tied up and dealt with. Most of the issues are similar to Windmill Knight's post. For one, I must confess that I mostly do count the Cs as a source for a lot of things. I know what they say is generally backed up by all the research that's done here. So what happens now to the idea that Jesus was probably an individual called Jesinavarah who taught people spiritual truths? It's a question that can be asked in one of the sessions I guess.

And also, what about the spiritual teachings and the mystical aspects of Christianity, like Gnosis by Boris Mouravieff and other streams/teachings which might have survived elsewhere like in the Russian Orthodox Church etc. What source would those teachings have come from? Did they branch off from the Mithraic Mysteries or some similar Mystery Schools of the time. Or were there other people who were teaching these things and they got entwined with stories/passion plays around Julius Caesar's life? I have to yet to read Caesar's writings, but who would then be the originator of these spiritual teachings?

There are probably other issues which might arise as I work this framework. But so far so good. This was a really cool session and I truly mean it. Thanks a lot.
Looking forward to future sessions where other issues can be dealt with perhaps. Kudos!
:rockon: :clap: :perfect:
 

Joe

Administrator
Administrator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
chrismcdude said:
And also, what about the spiritual teachings and the mystical aspects of Christianity, like Gnosis by Boris Mouravieff and other streams/teachings which might have survived elsewhere like in the Russian Orthodox Church etc. What source would those teachings have come from? Did they branch off from the Mithraic Mysteries or some similar Mystery Schools of the time. Or were there other people who were teaching these things and they got entwined with stories/passion plays around Julius Caesar's life? I have to yet to read Caesar's writings, but who would then be the originator of these spiritual teachings?
Maybe look at it this way. Say there is some 'mystery school' that has preserved and passed on secret teachings throughout the ages. If such a group were in possession of this almost ultimate truth, one aspect of that knowledge would be that the nature of this world, and how it is ultimately controlled, means that there isn't really any possibility for a person, like a member of such a group, to rise to a position of power and spread the Truth to the masses and transform the world into a utopian paradise. Maybe they would have understood the idea of "free will" and the "mechanical nature of humanity" and, basically, held the same knowledge as Gurdjieff. The C's have said that such teachings had been preserved, ultimately, from the "time of the fall".

It seems that one teaching, albeit in a slightly corrupted and basic form, of such groups has been that the world is "ruled by an evil god" and that humanity itself was "evil", and that such groups espoused a "hatred of humanity". That last idea is, in fact, mentioned in sources from the Roman era, that there was a group around that time that adhered to a "vile superstition" that they had a "hatred for humanity" and claimed that the world was "soon to be destroyed". So there may have been such a group extant around that time, which, in a broader sense, might have been part of an important 'stage' or 'nexus point' in the evolution of humanity. But that's getting a bit too esoteric for our purpose here, which is to uncover and make sense of as much of the actual history as possible.

As to whether or not any such 'secret' teachings might have gained widespread (or anything close to widespread) acceptance is hard to know because surely such ideas would have been top of the list for deletion from the historical record by the gatekeepers. Depending on how you interpret the information in the gospels, it's possible to see little hints of ideas that may have come from some 'gnostic' teachings, but they've been so thoroughly distorted and edited and re-edited, that it's hard to tell. That's why the transposing of the life of Caesar onto the manufactured "Jesus" is so attractive, because it's so freaking blatant! As we said on the show last night. If you consider that there IS historical evidence for Caesar and the details of his life, and that he was "on first" in the timeline, and then look at the "Jesus" story and realise that it very closely mirrors the life of Caesar, and yet there is NO historical evidence for Jesus and he came AFTER Caesar, how can any rational person NOT come to the conclusion that the story of "Jesus" was just stolen from Caesar.
 

Laura

Administrator
Administrator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
chrismcdude said:
Wow. That was incredible, and awe-inspiring. I was just blown away by all the information that was presented in the show and by the implications of it all.
All of us here are also blown away by the implications. Heck, when that began to emerge in my head simply as a result of the historical research, I was afraid to even talk about it. I've been sitting on it for many months and only opened up about it to the Croatian members back in June.



chrismcdude said:
The first order of things for me would be to read everything I can about Caesar and some factually accurate accounts of his life and his ideas.
Indeed. See the list I gave Mac. You can only understand Caesar and what he did in the total context of his times and that requires background research. That's what my next book is turning into. But nothing replaces your own deep research.

chrismcdude said:
This idea that the story of Jesus was based on an actual historical figure, whose life was a reflection of his values, and someone who we can actually read about is just so damn exciting. It has to be the, dare I say, the most profound re-discovery of the millenium.
I agree. That's why I think Atwill's book is something of a distraction. He misses the much larger point that the worship of "Christ" was already a powerful influence at the time, inspiring the Judaic Rebellion. It was only AFTER the destruction of Jerusalem that the "story of the life of a historical Jesus in Palestine" came into being to shove aside the life of Caesar, the heroic parent of the common man, the true "messiah".

chrismcdude said:
Having said that, all this info has opened a small can of worms in my head. There are threads dangling around that need to be tied up and dealt with. Most of the issues are similar to Windmill Knight's post. For one, I must confess that I mostly do count the Cs as a source for a lot of things. I know what they say is generally backed up by all the research that's done here. So what happens now to the idea that Jesus was probably an individual called Jesinavarah who taught people spiritual truths? It's a question that can be asked in one of the sessions I guess.
Indeed. And, if you read Atwill with all the rest in mind, you may find some answers to even that question. There was a "Jesus" who was part of the Jewish Rebellion according to Josephus. This person may have very well been inspired by Caesar's example, by the Cynic and Stoic teachings contained within the Mithraic Mysteries, and there may have been some Jewish/Mithraic/Stoic/Cynic/Passion of Caesar syncretism going on. And certainly, the things that Carotta points out were also in play in all these groups scattered around the empire.

First thing to do might be to read Courtney which helps to clear the palate. Then move on to filling the gap thus created by doing the historical research. And always read with the idea in mind that what you are reading is filtered through a certain kind of mind. Cicero, for example, was an authoritarian follower of the worst kind. Keep the criteria for an authoritarian follower in mind while reading him. You might even want to read about Cicero himself in order to better understand how he saw and presented Caesar. A good one for this is D. R. Shackleton Bailey's Classical Life and Letters: http://www.amazon.com/CICERO-Classical-Letters-Shackleton-Bailey/dp/B000T314G2/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1373885945&sr=8-3&keywords=cicero+classical+life+and+letters

chrismcdude said:
And also, what about the spiritual teachings and the mystical aspects of Christianity, like Gnosis by Boris Mouravieff and other streams/teachings which might have survived elsewhere like in the Russian Orthodox Church etc. What source would those teachings have come from? Did they branch off from the Mithraic Mysteries or some similar Mystery Schools of the time. Or were there other people who were teaching these things and they got entwined with stories/passion plays around Julius Caesar's life? I have to yet to read Caesar's writings, but who would then be the originator of these spiritual teachings?
Did you read the thread I started about the Stoics and the comparisons between their ideas and what Gurdjieff presented and my speculation that Gurdjieff must have encountered a tradition that goes directly back to the Stoics??? I've been dropping clues all over the place for months now.

What about the things I wrote about Stoyanov's "The Other God" taken in the context of cometary disasters and the ideas/and teachings that would arise from such events? Have you read "The Ancient City" by Fustel de Coulanges yet? This describes the kind of belief systems that would have arisen during a Dark Age of cometary events.

I'll give you another clue: a question that occurred to me is "where did the Romans come from?" They were obviously different from the indigenous Latins and Etruscans. I found a number of clues to suggest that whoever they were, they were powerfully influenced by the Assyrian Empire traditions. The archaeology supports this. So their history of the first "kings of Rome" is probably a distortion of the last kings of Assyria. I have yet to do a comparison of those kings to see if it fits, that's just my conjecture at this point. What I will eventually do is create tables comparing what is written about the Roman kings with what is known about the Assyrian kings. In preparation for that, I've had to divert into a whole pile of Assyrian history - even to getting and reading the translated tablets from Assurbanipal's library. That was fun. The go-to book to get started on that is: Assur is king! Assur is King! http://www.amazon.com/Assur-King-Religion-Exercise-Neo-Assyrian/dp/9004123288/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1373886515&sr=1-1&keywords=Assur+is+king

I should note here that Caesar's family apparently stemmed from the Etruscans... so he may not have had the same genetics as most of the oligarchs of Rome though there was some blending over the centuries.

It's important to gather as much hard data as possible first, such as the study done by Weinstock and then any archaology you can find, along with reading narrative histories and antiquarian collections such as that put together by Seutonius. Reading a book about Seutonius and his methodology is useful too. See: http://www.amazon.com/Suetonius-Classical-Paperbacks-Andrew-Wallace-Hadrill/dp/1853994510/ref=sr_1_5?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1373886823&sr=1-5&keywords=wallace+hadrill

Reading the original texts is very useful, as I've found. But, it is important to know what method the historian is using when he compiles his history not to mention knowing his biases. A lot of history of ancient times was written by "retired politicians" who had very definite biases and an need to justify themselves and their views. Modern historians also have very definite biases and that problem is addressed by Marc Bloch and others of his "school".

So, reading books about historiography is also important. One of the best experts on this topic is Arnaldo Momigliano. You can follow his recommendations for further reading as well.

Theodor Mommsen's "History of Rome" is a seminal work. I believe you can get all five volumes in a kindle edition. Not as much fun as hard copy where you can highlight, make notes, and put in sticky markers, but it will serve.

Behind it all is, of course, the most ancient history of the Steppe peoples... and that can only be derived from the archaeology. Thankfully, there is Anthony's "The Horse, the Wheel and Language."

So, carry on!
 

chrismcdude

Padawan Learner
Haha..Man, do I love this forum and your research work Laura. When I said everything, I did mean as much as I could, but not in the exact sense that you are used to because I am a terribly slow reader and my capacity for assimilating knowledge (and retaining things in my memory) is still very abysmal compared to the people here.

Laura said:
Indeed. See the list I gave Mac. You can only understand Caesar and what he did in the total context of his times and that requires background research. That's what my next book is turning into. But nothing replaces your own deep research.

Did you read the thread I started about the Stoics and the comparisons between their ideas and what Gurdjieff presented and my speculation that Gurdjieff must have encountered a tradition that goes directly back to the Stoics??? I've been dropping clues all over the place for months now.
Not to mention I can be incredibly dense sometimes.

I see that I have a LOT of reading to do but I am also quite pumped up right now. Will have to put aside a couple of months to catch up with the books on Caesar itself and prepare for the next volume of HoM. And radio talk shows on this topic won't hurt at all in the meantime. This is an awesome development and thanks for sharing it. Thanks a ton! Woot woot!!
 

Horseofadifferentcolor

Jedi Council Member
Wow....... I can not stop thinking about this. It is strange that I feel a little sick about it. I am not a follower of the whole Jesus thing and I still have very strong emotions about this. I can only wonder what this info would do to Joe public :shock:

I am going to have to duct tape the strategic enclosure thread to my face on this one!
 

Laura

Administrator
Administrator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
chrismcdude said:
Haha..Man, do I love this forum and your research work Laura.
Thanks. What is interesting is it always happens that just as I am really starting to get somewhere, get things organized, figure stuff out, all kinds of weird things come at me like bugs out of the woodwork or out of left field. As far as I can see, there can be no other explanation than 4D sts maneuvers, flipping the switches on the various "agents", cranking up the volume on agents already placed, etc. Damnedest thing you've ever seen!

chrismcdude said:
I see that I have a LOT of reading to do but I am also quite pumped up right now. Will have to put aside a couple of months to catch up with the books on Caesar itself and prepare for the next volume of HoM. And radio talk shows on this topic won't hurt at all in the meantime. This is an awesome development and thanks for sharing it. Thanks a ton! Woot woot!!
I'm pretty pumped myself. What I need now is some peace so I can get it all written the way it needs to be with all sources lined up and connections linked, and as entertaining as possible so that anybody can read it and get it.

Meanwhile, the crew here have set up a little "set" for me to get back in front of the camera and talk about certain topics that have been laid aside for too long now. So much to do, so little time, so much attack and betrayal, and so few helpers.

Well, the difficult we do immediately, the impossible just takes awhile. I'd say that figuring out the Jesus question was a biggie even if I find that a couple other people have figured it out before me. As I said, that is actually a comfort and I'm thankful that each of them has done it exactly the way they have because now I can just quote and cite them and concentrate on the "rest of the story."
 

Laura

Administrator
Administrator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
Horseofadifferentcolor said:
Wow....... I can not stop thinking about this. It is strange that I feel a little sick about it. I am not a follower of the whole Jesus thing and I still have very strong emotions about this. I can only wonder what this info would do to Joe public :shock:

I am going to have to duct tape the strategic enclosure thread to my face on this one!
I don't feel sick, I feel so thankful that at least one real human being in our god-forsaken history was truly such a man that anybody, knowing the true story, can find in him a hero and a role model.

At the same time, just thinking about the reality of his life, all he did for humanity at large, only to be betrayed by small-minded, petty, jealous and greedy people, strikes me in the heart the way the Jesus story never did.
 

Horseofadifferentcolor

Jedi Council Member
Laura said:
Horseofadifferentcolor said:
Wow....... I can not stop thinking about this. It is strange that I feel a little sick about it. I am not a follower of the whole Jesus thing and I still have very strong emotions about this. I can only wonder what this info would do to Joe public :shock:

I am going to have to duct tape the strategic enclosure thread to my face on this one!
I don't feel sick, I feel so thankful that at least one real human being in our god-forsaken history was truly such a man that anybody, knowing the true story, can find in him a hero and a role model.

At the same time, just thinking about the reality of his life, all he did for humanity at large, only to be betrayed by small-minded, petty, jealous and greedy people, strikes me in the heart the way the Jesus story never did.
That is what makes me feel so yucky is the fact that so many things have been done in the name of lies. All the wars and borders. Yes, I know I should know all this already, but somehow this seems much larger. I feel shakin by this and do not really understand why? I am very thankful for all of your hard work and how you have taught me to be able to think. Still just sitting here going...... Wow!

It is crazy to know that one man was so powerful and good that all of history was rewritten to hide it. Wow..... cheers to truth!!!!!!!
 
Top Bottom