Slavs and Serbs(South Slavs)

Re: Slavs and Serbs(Sauth Slavs)

Greetings!

Thank you Ljubica for excellent work and you thematic lines. I agree that we can use them for our research and futher communication. I believe that we will find something interesting at the end of this road.
I have feeling that only Ljubica understand my attempt of amount an old theory. Ljubica have become my bright star at the sky.

Dear Herr Eisenheim, theory isn't „mine“ theory, this theory is very old. Mine is attemp/effort to adduce everyone information about possible origin of south Slav's. I'm aware that nationalists in Croatia use this theory for their aims. They were STS for sure and they used everything to become more powerfull. Because of that, this theory felt in silence. But, what if this theory can give us new evidence about south Slav's migration direction? This theory is very dangerous because she has connection with old Slav's origin and nationalism. When I saw nationalism, I have big fear because I saw what it can do to nations… bloody war was in Balkan region before 15 years folk! Remember Vukovar, Srebrenica and lot other towns and villages where were living normal people, and today they are dead. This was my aim when I was talking about nationalism! My attempt was on origin.

I'm sad if I have give some facts that create your opinion that I'm an manipulative person, that my statement was presumptuous… I though that I give new facts in this conversation. I saw with my eyes what nationalism can do, so when I see it I'm trying to stop it.
Be aware that I'm last person at this planet which will use somebody for some my goal. I want truth, normal living, development for everyone and other positive things.

Only truth can protect use.

Light worker
 
light worker said:
Dear Herr Eisenheim, theory isn't „mine“ theory, this theory is very old. Mine is attemp/effort to adduce everyone information about possible origin of south Slav's. I'm aware that nationalists in Croatia use this theory for their aims. They were STS for sure and they used everything to become more powerfull. Because of that, this theory felt in silence. But, what if this theory can give us new evidence about south Slav's migration direction? This theory is very dangerous because she has connection with old Slav's origin and nationalism.
You are missing the point light worker.
This theory has been around long enough but no conclusive evidence has been provided so far in order to make it more valid then other theories.
To this day the only "evidence" for this theory is etymological, i.e
* Harahvaiti and Harauvati in Iran and Afghanistan
* Hurravat and Hurrvuhe in Armenia and Georgia
* Horoouathos in Azova and the Black Sea
* Present day Croats Horvati and Hrvati along the Adriatic
Unfortunately this is not enough to make conclusive evidence.

The Iranian Origin theory has not been kept in silence as you put it, in fact it was widely popularized during the Nazi puppet state of Independent Croatia and then revived at the begining of 90-ies when Croatia gained independence. In fact many Croatian historians and linguists worked on it but they failed to produce anything more significant then the above mentioned etymological evidence.
In fact the very foundation of Iranian Origin theory is illogical to say the least. Here is why-the main premise on which the whole theory rests is the following:
The process for the change of the spoken language of the Croats of ancient Iran to the language of Slavs that was started in the 7th century continued up to the 20th century and was forcefully followed by former Yugoslavia.
This really doesn't make much sense. Since Croatia lost its independence in Middle Ages it was never ruled by Slavic nation, so you would expect ancient Iranian language of Croatian tribes to became more germanized, italianized or ugrinized until 20th century rather then become Slavic as proponents of Iranian origin would like us to believe.
Then in unexplainable twist of logic The Iranian Origin proponents would like us to believe that all Yugoslav langagues are basically the result of Croatian dominance as ancient Iranian people and their influence on other Balkan tribes and later Slavic settlers.
They do fail to explain close relation with Slovak and Polish language.


light worker said:
When I saw nationalism, I have big fear because I saw what it can do to nations… bloody war was in Balkan region before 15 years folk! Remember Vukovar, Srebrenica and lot other towns and villages where were living normal people, and today they are dead. This was my aim when I was talking about nationalism! My attempt was on origin.

Now this statement of yours is again loaded with presumption and plain twisting of facts.
It could be the language barrier, but the fact that you are insisting even after you have been provided with clarification makes me wonder.
Where did you see nationalism on this thread?
Why would you even assume that long term participants of this forum would be suffering from nationalism?
light worker said:
I'm sad if I have give some facts that create your opinion that I'm an manipulative person, that my statement was presumptuous…
I though that I give new facts in this conversation.
Well, as i pointed out rather then giving new facts you were twisting the tone of conversation and giving it non-existing spin. Whether you are doing this only because English is not your native language or there are some other reasons the time will tell.

light worker said:
I saw with my eyes what nationalism can do, so when I see it I'm trying to stop it.
And here you are doing it again.
Do you really believe that long time members of network which is based on values such as
Respect, Sharing, Relevance, Empathy, Constructiveness, Temperance - would so easily succumb to nationalistic pathos and need you to protect them?!

light worker said:
Be aware that I'm last person at this planet which will use somebody for some my goal. I want truth, normal living, development for everyone and other positive things.
On this forum we only have words and sometimes we can read between the lines.
Your discourse so far has been indicative of either inability to fully understand and share ideas in foreign language or attempts of manipulation. Or both.
At the moment I cannot be certain but I sincerely hope it is the confusion of the tongues.
 
Re: Slavs and Serbs(Sauth Slavs)

Hello!

I must agree that my English isn't good and that I have problems with using and translating some words. English language isn't my first language and there is big difference betwean Croatian and English language. I am using translator/book when I am writing this sentences. Sometimes I lost main mining of sentence when this sentence is too long.

I need help and explanation about this statement/mind.
Herr Eisenheim said:
The Iranian Origin proponents would like us to believe that all Yugoslav languages are basically the result of Croatian dominance as ancient Iranian people and their influence on other Balkan tribes and later Slavic settlers.
I'm confused in main mining: Do you think that Croats had domination on other nations in region? Or that Croat language was language from which others Slav's languages were made (In Balkan region)? Or that other Slav's nations from Balkan developed from Croats? Or something else...

I'm Croat I don't know when Croats had dominance on other Balkan tribes in history. In our history classes we learnt that last 800 we had no state, and that we were under domination of other neighbour nations, and in moment when we had chance to make something good and normal we did opposite... something like total loosers.
Our the nearest Slav's neighbour are Serbs, Slovenians, Monte Negro's and we had no domination on them (language or state domination). Our languages are very similar but not same. Croat and Serbian language are very similar and we can understand each others. Slovenian and Croat languages are more different and Croats have problems to understand Slovenians but Slovenians can easily understand Croats. There is no theory that Croats had domination on other languages in region. Every nation (Slav tribe) had its own language and they developing it whole time.


I will try to find some new clues about theory of Iranian origin... :huh: This will be interesting...

Light worker
 
Re: Slavs and Serbs(Sauth Slavs)

light worker said:
I need help and explanation about this statement/mind.
Herr Eisenheim said:
The Iranian Origin proponents would like us to believe that all Yugoslav languages are basically the result of Croatian dominance as ancient Iranian people and their influence on other Balkan tribes and later Slavic settlers.
I'm confused in main mining: Do you think that Croats had domination on other nations in region? Or that Croat language was language from which others Slav's languages were made (In Balkan region)? Or that other Slav's nations from Balkan developed from Croats? Or something else...

The core of theory of Iranian origin proposes that Croats were the elite tribe which migrated from Iran to Balkans together with their Slavic slaves. In Balkans they found Slavic population that had already migrated and settled there. Then Croats exerted their influence introducing elements of their language into the Slavic language and thus shaping all the present day nations and language of South Slavs.
More recently there has been mention of Serbian tribes traveling together with Croats, but from its introduction (and especially during Pavelic Nazi regime) Iranian origin theory has been used as proof for superiority of Croats due to their pure Aryan origin.
light worker said:
I'm Croat I don't know when Croats had dominance on other Balkan tribes in history. In our history classes we learnt that last 800 we had no state, and that we were under domination of other neighbour nations, and in moment when we had chance to make something good and normal we did opposite... something like total loosers.
It looks like that being "total losers" is not only Croatian prerogative as Serbian history gives ample evidence of similar behavior. It is almost like Serbs and Croats are two sides of one coin, mirroring each other.
From karmic point of view the relationship between Serbs and Croats is very interesting, it is almost like two twin brothers, cursed at birth.
 
Ljubica

You read about Mауро Orbini?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mavro_Orbin

I have its texts while in Russian, but can cite from book "the Historiography of the people slavic" 1606г.

If the name of Slavs also is new, the glory won by the weapon and blood, is inherent in them by the nature and is inherited from the ancestors who have gained nice victories in Asia, Europe and Africa (in Asia, Europa, and Africa). They were called vandals, burgundiony,goths, ostrogoths, visigoths, gepidae, geta, alans, verlaine or herulians, avars, skiri, giry, melanhleny, bastarnov, pevkiny, dacians, swedes, normans, fenny or finns, ukry or unkrany, marcomanni, quads, thracians and illyrians. All of them were Slavs and had one language.
Leaving initially Scandinavia (della Scandinauia), their general native land, all these people (except Illyrians and Thracians) were called as one name - goths. Franchesko Ireniko (Francesco Irenico) (III, 10) speaks about that, as ants (gli Anti) (which as we have shown above on the basis of the certificate the Procopy, were the present Slavs) were goths, involving certificates of Jordan and Ablavija (Ablabio). In 42 chapter of I book of Franchesko Ireniko writes that from it is ready there are slavs, ants, avars, skiri, alans and other people. Certificates of Ablavija, Jordan will be coordinated with this statement Alansky and Pavel Barnefrida (Paolo Barnefrido) also. Procopies (Procopio) (book I "Wars with vandals") at the description of acts of barbarians (as he them names), intruded at Gonorii to Roman empire, says that "during former time of gothic tribes was much, it is a lot of them and now, but the greatest and powerful from them were goths, vandals, visigoths, gepidae, before called as Sarmatians, and melanhleny. Some authors named them geta (Geti). All of them differed under the name, but converged in all the rest. All of them had the light skin, a long fair hair reaching shoulders, a large constitution and pleasant appearance. They had one laws, all of them professed an arianism (sono di setta Arriana), had one language named gothic (Gotico), and as it seems to me, there were they one tribe, having accepted subsequently various names by name the commanders.
 
Hi Axxel,

I learned & read about MO in school and during tour guide training, I must say his idea of Pan Slavism was interesting but it is based on idea of Great Illyricum (although Illyrians are ancient tribes of Balkan and Slavs are one of the latest affix to the Balkan area), I must say MO ideas as well reminds me to the 19th century Illyrian movement in Croatia, Slovenia and in some parts in Serbia, although Illyrian movement commenced by Slovak Jan Kollar and his strong sense of unity of Slavs (pan Slavism or Pan Slavic movement), it certainly has predecessors and supporters in many intellectuals who lived in Republic of Ragusa (today's Dubrovnik Croatia) and other parts of ex Yugoslavia from the time of Renaissance up to day.
But on the end why to look forward only to the Pan Slavic idea or unity of one single race, for sure our notion should be unity of fragmented human souls and STO state of our minds no matter if on 3D, 4D or 6D, right ;).
 
Greetings!

After reading book “Cataclysm“ by Allan and Delair, lots of puzzles come to right place in my head. Now I understand what happened in our recent history (11500 years ago) and why our history classes learnt us only about „old“ civilization before some 6000 years (Babylon, China, Egypt...) and not before that.

Old towns like Derinkuy and Kaymakli now are easily explainable to me.
When I try to visualize flow of catastrophe (Phaeton) I just can't imagine how somebody managed to survive. This was amazing scenario. :shock:

Now theory that Slavs came from Caucasus area have sense to me. Caucasus area was part of Earth which elevated in crustal recombination. This part of world was damaged in lower extent compared with other parts. After Deluge came ice age for short period, and in beginning after Deluge, Europe wasn't nice place for living, but when ice started to retreat, then lot of nation (Slavs) start with migration.

Why Slavs have so similar language? I thing because they lived together for long perion in Causacus.

I found one interesting information in Seno Map (map from book). In part of the world by name Fenoscandia (top-right position) there is interesting written name: Crolandia.
I can't claim that name has some connection with Croats, but this was interesting information for me. Any comment?

After I read this book, I can say that lot of candles were inflamed in my room of knowledge... but there is still lot of place fore learn.

I wonder that somebody like me start with reading of this book. Everybody who didn't read it, should try to do.

Have a nice day.

Your Light worker
 
Hmm, Cataclysm - by Allan and Delair support lot of Velikovsky's ideas and most of them seems pretty interesting even pretty possible related to the past, but C's mentioned (as much I can remember) that Venus, Mars and cluster of the comets were actually connected to the certain "deluge like" cataclysms in the past, (in addition to the Atlantean wars and influence of the crystals). But coming back to Allan and Delair's Cataclysm, seems like they connecting Marduk (or Phaeton-Marduk) with wrong palnet, C's connect Marduk with planet Mars (I'm sorry for not placing excerpts of these seesions since I have only Croatian translations of the same). There's excellent C's timeline done by Shijing, including Venus and Mars influence on our past cataclysms: http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=13920.0

But, I was puzzled a lot with Caucasus area, and I'm still puzzled, why so many nations and tribes from the past originated from that area, is there something in the geography, climatology or is it random (although I doubt in random occurrences in this case)?? Perhaps, climate has to do something with primordial soup of many tribes and nations in Caucasus area at the time of the melting pot of nations and rise of the human, but there is lot of unknown factors and we could only speculate, perhaps one interesting question for C's.

Second interesting thing is the language, the similarities among the Slavs languages are obvious, same as the similarities of Roman and Germanic branch of languages, I'm personally fascinated with similarities of all modern languages with Sanskrit, (more on: http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=20819.15) Even the alphabet is fascinating trace, I noticed funny thing related to the alphabets, people of the pyramids or sun worshipers, mostly have signs for the sound: ć,č,đ,ž,š and the people of the circle - the moon worshipers or northern groups didn't have these sounds specified in their alphabet. Does it means that following the alphabet we could follow the Kanthekian or other cultural influences on the Earth, are there any implications in Caucasian primordial soup, does it means that differences between the moon worshipers and sun worshipers could be implemented on Slavs as well, an how, since Slavs respect both: Sun, Moon and Venus, although on the end Sun become major god and female Moon godess become semi god (nothing more than sun's old uncle)....,....

I'm not sure if the question of Slavs should be excluded from question of other nations or major groups, perhaps variation in the genome could answer the zigzag, back and forth movement of all groups across the globe, but genetic is young science and still have lot of rooms for improvemet.

Last but not the least is mythology, most of the ancient tales connected to the previous cataclysms are beautifully entangled in our myths and legends together with traces of ancient technologies and knowledge, for that purpose I sincerely recommend Laura's: Secret History of the World and How to Get Out Alive.
 
Cataclysm is a great book for helping wrap ones mind around the type of cyclical cataclysm that has shaped life on Earth, but it's fairly likely that Allan and Delair combined several events into one in their attempt to explain it. In other words, while a valuable work, it's more valuable from the standpoint of 'effect' than 'cause', from what I understand.
 
Maybe some might find interesting this article about Croatians

_http://www.studiacroatica.org/jcs/01/0103.htm

"EARLY CROATIAN CONTACTS WITH AMERICA AND THE MYSTERY OF THE CROATANS*"
 
Re: Slavs and Serbs(Sauth Slavs)

SolarMother said:
light worker said:
Thank you for explanation!

Now some my old puzzles connected in my head... Kantek population were transfered in this region. And from this region this population went in lot direction (removal). South Slavs came from region around "Karpat" mountains and before that our ancestors lived in Kavkaz (Caucasus area)... :wow:

There was one interesting story from one old history professor. He told that he has found identical folk costumes in Afghanistan like folk costumes are today in my country. From his claim came into existence theory of ancestors (unfortunately lot of people reject this theory). But he told us truth and nobody believed him... huh!
Kantek population was different from Earth Civilization... so South Slavs has the similar characteristic as them. I can say for my nation that we are capable to do impossible things and in same time to destroy indestructible. I was wondering why every generation had WAR in Balkan region? Every time somebody else import WAR in Balkan and crazy Balkan nations (old Kantek population) start fight... this is some rotten manipulation plan for sure :umm:
Don't forget that Bosnian pyramids are in Balkan Region... + old Kantek people .... ohohohooo - nice cake we have. :huh:

Light worker

I've wondered if the 'Serbs' are in some way connected to the Kurds! Both were genocized. Both have very ancient knowledge.

Consider that from 1991-1995 that "poor serbs" killed 30 000 Bonian muslims in Bosnia, and completly destroyed more than 500 mosques in Bosnia, while in same period regions that were controlled by Bosniaks (bosnian muslims) were pleces where serbs lived in peace also Bosnian chatolics so called croats.

Note that in some regions that were controlled by croats were about 3000 muslim civilians dead and 87 mosques destroyed.

In 1999 on Kosovo serbs killed about 11 000 albanias civilians and destryed evryone mosque that they found.

So before you say such stupid thing perhaps you shuould read something.

p.s. Court in deen hag verdicted genocide in Srebrenica where in 5 days were killed more than 8000 Bosniaks.
 
There is this to consider: http://www.beoforum.rs/en/comments-belgrade-forum-for-the-world-of-equals/153-criminal-kosovo-americas-gift-to-europe-by-diana-johnstone.html

Apparently hundreds of captive Serbs, at least, were murdered, even their body parts taken and sold, not by Bosnaks, but by another group. The Republic of Serb Krajina also comes to mind, along with the U.S.'s actions with unguided missiles, for example. Serbs were victims of this. Other reading material can be found by searching Yugoslavia and related terms.

To point out that one group has been 'genocized' is not ignoring their faults; that is another subject. I remember reading Sacco's book on Gorazde and being freaked out by the Serbs' actions. As far as I am concerned, there is not much difference between one ethnicity and another, especially south slavs all in the same general region - differences are really in individual personalities. I like Bosnaks, Croats, Serbs, and Albanians. Most seem like they would be nice, open-minded people, especially since they were able to live together for so long in peace. I hope that helps.
 
Before focusing on the addition (which will include the latest information on the origin of the South Slavs), would like to address several issues found in the topic. There's some misinformation which is a result of personal subjective point of view, lack of knowledge (which was not available first-hand at the time, for example on Wikipedia, or in the books to non-South Slavic speakers) or critical understanding of the topic. Think this should be noted to not cause any further confusion. The posts as such included POV or misinformation which is caused by manipulation, were it nationalistic, political, cultural, ideological and so on.

Also there several posts about the modern history ie. the war and misfortune that happened in the territory of ex-Yugoslavia, which don't know how are related to the original topic - origin of the South Slavs. Those posts perhaps could be moved to a different topic which would discuss those pre-WWI, WWI, WWII and post-WWII events in the territory of ex-Yugoslavia. Eärwen once rightly called it - Balkan's Pandora's box.

Review:

Graalsword said:
Something similar was asked here: http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=12968.msg91719#msg91719
Z said:
On the historic scene South Slavs of Balkan appear quite suddenly,almost out of nowhere. The usual theory pushed by German historians is that they migrated from river Visla plains but there is very little evidence for this.
Some theories propose Celtic origins. Other that South Slavs are really different groups of older indigenous groups of people which were Slavenized and accepted the same language- recent genetic study which shows Croats to have predominant Ilyrian haplotyoe could support this theory. So where did the South Slavs really come from?

It could be said that South Slavs appear suddenly. They were part of the sudden semi-nomadic migration which (generally) started in the 3rd century with Huns invasion from the East, and Goths invasion from the North. What characterizes the Slavs is their sudden appearance of the name in historical records, implying they were called in the past with different, tribal names. As well should be noted that the Roman Empire boundary was on the Danube, and generally did had notable trade contacts with the "barbarian" tribes from the north and east of it, beside with those which had a political and economical ie. geographical interest. The "usual Visla theory" is mainstream scholarship consideration based on archeology and historical evidence, not specifically pushed by some "German agenda", yet Slavists and generally modern scholars. Celtic theory is never mentioned in the scholarship books (personally never heard of it after years of research). South Slavs, like any modern nation with complex ethnogenesis, are comprised of migrating and indigenous population, but the issue about the number of the newcoming and autochthonous population, as well such a wide Slavicization without any relevant remains of culutural heritage of the indigenous population (some consider more numerous), seeks serious questions rather such simplified generalization.

The "same language" - well, that's another misinformation or better to say misinterpretation caused by socio-political events in Yugoslavia. Serbo-Croatian was the standardized language through which was attempted to loose the linguistical difference between the Serbs and Croats (as well other South Slavs) making a new national identity - Yugoslavs, but there several dialects among the South Slavs which are very different between themselves with distinctive vocabulary and grammar charatheristics. Some scholars like renowned Radoslav Katičić, consider them a distinctive regional or local languages - indicating different Slavic tribes within different regional influence. The genetic study does not show that the Croats have predominant Ilyrian Y chromosome, ie. male, haplogroup because: a) it is not known to which Y haplogroup predominantly belonged the Illyrians (which is a term used for different tribes(!) inhabiting the region of Illyria) and b) it is not known with security whether the haplogroup in question can be considered autochthonous.

light worker said:
There was one interesting story from one old history professor. He told that he has found identical folk costumes in Afghanistan like folk costumes are today in my country. From his claim came into existence theory of ancestors (unfortunately lot of people reject this theory). But he told us truth and nobody believed him... huh!

That claim is part of the wrongly called Iranian theory. The right name is Persian theory of the origin of the Croats (as "traces" the name of the Croats to the territory of the former Persian Empire, but even further into the past), and could be said that is justly rejected because those claims are based on loose evidence, even manipulation, as was pushed by non-professional scholars. Unfortunately, it was more shouted out by some agenda because of which the genuine Iranian theory was wrongly understood and rejected sometime.

light worker said:
I look in the history of my nation again. There are two theory about my ancestors (Croats). First is that we (south slaves) came from region of Polland in 4-7 century A.D. and second is that our ancestors came from IRAN and part of Afghanistan and Syria (From Iran to Polland, then to Balkan region) ... Population from Kantek came at planet Earth in bigger number I suppose, not some few thousend... possible few milion and more, and they started with expansion. One group went in Polland and from there in Balkan region, and another went in Iran, Syria, Afghanistan etc.

That information was probably based on the previous revision of the then very poorly written Wikipedia article "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_hypotheses_of_the_Croats#Genetics_and_anthropology". They are called South Slavs (not slaves). Note again, the Iranian theory name does not come from the name of the geographical country Iran, but the socio-linguistical and cultural term Iranian, which was spread in lands outside of Iran or Persian Empire (example the Scythians). In the article was probably a mix of the Iranian and Persian theory. If the population from Kantek came to planet Earth, we don't know the exact routes they migrated, and theres obvious difference to the Slavic and Iranian speaking population migrations, with several hundreds and thousands of years difference.

Avala said:
Not to mention that "nation's" names like "Serbs" "Croats" and other are newer days invention, from 18th or 19th century. And that the name itself originally could mean something totally different than today.

The modern day nations of the Serbs and Croats (as well in the case of other South Slavs, but also English, German, Italian etc.), are invented in the 18-19th century period. However, the names of Croats and Serbs are not modern invention as are traced to ancient times, I mention it for someone to not misunderstand the previous statement.

dannybananny said:
You are right on that, genetics shows it, here is an excerpt about research of one Croatian scientist.

As Avala then already concluded, that study is written from nationalistic point of view, and is not cited by the professional scholars (not because of some "hidden truth", because it is simply written from a specific agenda)

Avala said:
I think that anyhow genetics is not so important here, but the mentality and "spiritual composition" of almost any "nation" on the Balkans is the one and same.

As was already stated, and will be shown further in the addition, the genetic and historical background of every "nation" in the Balkan is heterogeneous, comprising a mix of several many different communities who have found themselves in the same place. Every community brough own carma and "mental programs". Think such a subjective point of view, a common generalization is unobjective and illogical.

dannybananny said:
I don't know of studies about Serbs but here is what is said on Wikipedia

That information is partially outdated, and some sub-haplogroups don't have the same name today

light worker said:
I'm sure that South Slaves were neighbours somewhere in Caucasus region. Our languages are vere-very similar, out temperament is very similar, our body constitution again is very similar.

As previously said, there many differences between regional "dialects" (or "languages", as some scholars consider), and think that generalization is bringing people on the wrong path. Yes, the ideal of somekind "divine mission" is attractive, but as someone previously said - Croats and Serbs seem like different side of the same coin. This reminds me of something Gurdjieff said about the nation consciousness which has a specific relationship with other nation consciousness on regional or global scale, and losing them this important relationship (even own national existance) is lost. Globalization, like the idea about the Yugoslavs, is destroying national consciousness - national identity. Perhaps this diversity within a mission - could be the mission.

Think that a good example and argument against the idealistic thought above is Croatia because of the geographic layout, but also of the socio-genetic differences between the regions. The genuine "language", temperament and body constitution (as well genetics) is (more-or-less, generally speaking) different between a person in Dalmatia and Slavonia.

light worker said:
Last two weeks I have search for information about history of Croats. And I found that story which connect Croats and ancestors from Iran and Afghanistan has good based.

As previously said, the Persian theory is not based on good evidence. Irano-Turkish words are generally considered borrowings from the Ottoman period (unless proven to be from before, and during Slavic-Iranian contact in Eurasian steppe). The folk costume, or just one part of it, is not an evidence, as well the influence of specific region could have influenced a far greater area and multiple ethnic groups, not exclusively Croats. At the Behistun Inscription by Darius I (c. 550–486 BCE) is written ''Harauvatiš'', while on other also "Harahvaitī" and the people "Harahuvatiya", however it is considered etymologically incorrect, will explain later. The mentioned use of colors as designation of cardinal points wasn't something specific to the Iranians, as the same system had Turkic-speaking people of the Eurasian Steppe (including the Huns).

Z said:
It is certainly very interesting but there are still some lose ends there, besides this theory has been heavily politicized since the break up of Yugoslavia and used as argument for Croatian supremacy over Serbs in Balkans, therefore I am very suspicious but nonetheless keeping my mind open.

Z said:
Let me explain - the theory about Croats coming to Balkan from Iran was very often equalized with Croats being chosen people and as such used in speeches of many politicians who rallied masses for war either to win more territories in Bosnia, or to drive Serbs as inferior race out of Croatia.

Unfortunately, this is another misunderstanding of the events. The Iranian (or Persian) theory were not used by political means as an specific argument for Croatian supremacy over Serbs. It has not been politicized (in such an extent), but ideologized because it is based on solid considerations. The argument to have been politicized is because many people who grown up in Yugoslavia were educated in the system where this theory was forbidden (because of the political and cultural ideology of the Soc-Communist regime), and its again confirmation among the national scholars after the colapse resulted with initial (and for some still) misunderstanding. Those who propagated the Persian theory were often driven (as usually being amateur researchers) by national-egoism, which resulted with some conclusions with resemblance to "Croats being chosen people". However, in Serbia is also considered a possible Iranian origin for the Serbs, and there were also issues, like with all nations in the Balkan, where were tried to depicted themselvess as the "chosen one".

Eärwen said:
The frequency of Haplogroup R1a ranges from 63.39% in the Serbs...

Factually wrong information (probably their "ancestors" Sorbs from Lusatia, in Germany and Poland)

Z said:
The Iranian Origin theory has not been kept in silence as you put it, in fact it was widely popularized during the Nazi puppet state of Independent Croatia and then revived at the begining of 90-ies when Croatia gained independence. In fact many Croatian historians and linguists worked on it but they failed to produce anything more significant then the above mentioned etymological evidence. In fact the very foundation of Iranian Origin theory is illogical to say the least.

Z said:
The core of theory of Iranian origin proposes that Croats were the elite tribe which migrated from Iran to Balkans together with their Slavic slaves. In Balkans they found Slavic population that had already migrated and settled there. Then Croats exerted their influence introducing elements of their language into the Slavic language and thus shaping all the present day nations and language of South Slavs.
More recently there has been mention of Serbian tribes traveling together with Croats, but from its introduction (and especially during Pavelic Nazi regime) Iranian origin theory has been used as proof for superiority of Croats due to their pure Aryan origin.

The Iranian, or other Persian, theory was noted during the NDH, but was not emphasized and official like the Gothic theory. Actually, another misunderstanding is that national scholars invented and worked on it, while actually was considered by international scholars during the time Yugoslavia. Since then scholars managed to find some "evidence" or connect the dots, as here people like to call it. However, in the comment above the main emphasize is on the Persian theory, which is not supported even by those scholars who consider the Iranian theory. No, the core of the Iranian theory proposes that the Croats (Hrvati) were a tribe of Sarmatian or Alanic ie. Scythian origin who during the Huns invasion migrated to the West and got Slavicized, or happened specific Iranian cultural-linguistic-religious or ethnogenesis influence on the Slavs (ie. the Antes) in the Eurasian Steppe (in short). They became the Slavs, but preserved the non-Slavic name, and perhaps initially even non-Slavic personal names among the rulers, but did not bring with them some "Slavic slaves". This would be it for now on past discussions.
 
From now on think the topic should follow the footsteps previously noted by Laura and Eärwen:

1. Where, when and how did Slavs rise up from primordial Caucasus; Did other Kanthek groups had substantial initial influence on them; The route of Slavic expansion from Caucasus area to today's European habitats

2. When did Slavic languages got separated form other Indo-European languages; How did Slavs languages become so much different than other two main Euro groups, the Latin and Germanic; The real meaning and origin of the term Slav

3. What Slavic mythology could reveal about their origin, influences and historical facts

4. How Milograd culture, Chernoles culture, Lusatian culture and Vinča culture have to do anything with Slavs or some other more ancient groups or other Kanthekian variations

5. What genetic studies on Y and X chromosome haplogroups indicate

I will try to answer on this questions by starting from historical aspect of the origin of the Croats, due to being most studied, and partially Serbs. Croats and Serbs are chosen because belong to the South Slavs who migrated (have a specific route), and whose tribal names can be traced before the Slavic migration in comparison to the Western and Eastern Slavs. The Bosniaks, Montenegrins are not chosen because are more regional ethnic identity, compared to tribal origin of the Croats and Serbs. The Slovenes thrhough history signifiated a mass of Slavs which migrated to the specific territory, and also doesn't have a tribal name. The Bulgarians are a mix of the Seven Slavic tribes who Slavicized the mixture of nomadic Turkic-speaking Bulgars from whom received the name. The Macedonians are those Eastern Slavs, also under influence of Bulgars incrusion, who migrated in Southern Balkan, and are related to the Bulgarians, and also doesn't have a tribal name. However, through this aspect it will be easly to grasp the specific pattern of ethnogenesis evolution of a specific nation, ie. Slavic community.

After the historical aspect will try to connect those migratory routes with genetic studies (and basic cultural and linguistic information). After those two time-line aspects are established, can follow the expansion on the mythological and linguistic ie. cultural contacts between (South) Slavic and other ethnic groups.
 
The post will be about the historiographical aspect of the origin of the Croats and Serbs. The text, to get some basic information, will be cited from few generally informative Wikipedia articles which statements already have references to specific reliable sources (to not link them here).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_hypotheses_of_the_Croats (current revision in work since March 2015)
White Croats (current revision in work since January 2016‎)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_of_Croatia (current revision in work since March 2015)

Also advise for basic information:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Slavs
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Slavs
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorbs

When is mentioned the origin of the Croats (Hrvati) and Serbs (Srbi), should be clearly distinguished what is meant by specific ethnonym: a) the origin of the Slavic tribe which arrived in the Middle Ages b) the origin of the modern Slavic nation.

In the case of present-day Croatian nation it could be said that several components or phases influenced its ethnogenesis (according to mainstream scholarship):

  • the indigenous prehistoric component which dates from Stone Age, before 40,000 years, and the younger Neolithic culture like Danilo dated 4700-3900 BC, and Eneolithic culture like Vučedol dated 3000 and 2200 BC.
  • the protohistoric component, which includes ancient people like Illyrians, the Dalmatae and Liburnians in coastal Croatia, and the Celts people, the Iapydes, Taurisci, Scordisci and Pannonii in continental Croatia. In the 4th century BCE there also existed several Greek colonies on the Adriatic islands and coast.
  • the classical antiquity component caused by the Roman conquest, which included a mixture of ancient people and Rome's colonists and legionaries, as well presence of Iranian-speaking Iazyges.
  • the Late Antiquity-Early Middle Ages component from the Migration Period, started by the Huns, and which in Croatia included in the first phase Visigoths and Suebi, who didn't stay for a long period of time, and Ostrogoths, Gepids and Langobards, who formed Ostrogothic Kingdom (493-553 AD). In the second phase occurred the great Slav migration, often associated with the Avars' activity.
  • the final Middle Ages-Modern Age component, which included Franks, Magyars, Italians, Germans/Saxons. After the 14th century, because of the black death, and the late 15th century, because of Ottoman invasion, the Croatian ethnonym expanded from the historic Croatian lands to Western Slavonia, which caused Zagreb to become capital city of the Croatian Kingdom, and to become incorporated the population ethnogenesis of that territory. The Ottoman invasion caused many migrations of the people in the Balkans, in Croatia like those of Vlachs, but the upcoming world wars and social events also influenced the Croatian ethnogenesis.

The Slavic ancient homeland "Urheimat" have traditionally been placed in the Pripet marshes of Ukraine, or alternatively between the Bug and the Dniepr. In the 5th century Slavs are mentioned as living north of the Danube in the written sources from that era. From the 5th century, they supposedly spread outward in all directions. The Balkans was one of the regions which lay in the path of the expanding Slavs.

Regarding the Slavs mentioned by 6th-century Byzantine chroniclers, Florin Curta states that their 'homeland' was north of the Danube and not in the Belorussian-Ukrainian borderlands. He clarifies that their itinerant form of agriculture (they lacked the knowledge of crop rotation) "may have encouraged mobility on a micro regional scale". As a reaction to this economic isolation, and external threats caused political and military mobilisation. The Danube basin hypothesis is also supported by an early Medieval Slavic narrative source – Nestor's Chronicle.

The mention of the Croatian ethnonym Hrvat for a specific tribe before the 9th century is not yet completely confirmed. According to Constantine VII's work De Administrando Imperio (10th century), a group of Croats separated from the White Croats who lived in White Croatia and arrived by their own will, or were called by the Byzantine Emperor Heraclius (610-641), to Dalmatia where they fought and defeated the Avars, and eventually organized their own principality. According to the legend preserved in the work, they were led by five brothers Κλουκας (Kloukas), Λόβελος (Lobelos), Κοσέντζης (Kosentzis), Μουχλώ (Mouchlo), Χρωβάτος (Chrobatos), and two sisters Τουγά (Touga) and Βουγά (Bouga), and their archon at the time was father of Porga, and they were baptized during the rule of Porga in the 7th century.

The old historical sources do not give an exact indication of the ethnogenesis of these early Croats. Constantine VII partially identifed Croats with Slavs. John Skylitzes in his work Madrid Skylitzes identified Croats and Serbs as Scythians. Nestor the Chronicler in his Primary Chronicle identified White Croats with West Slavs along Vistula river, with other Croats included in the East Slavic tribal union. The Chronicle of the Priest of Duklja identifies Croats with the Goths who remained after king Totila occupied the province of Dalmatia. Similarly, Thomas the Archdeacon in his work Historia Salonitana mentions that seven or eight tribes of nobles, which he called "Lingones", arrived from present-day Poland and settled in Croatia under Totila's leadership.

It should be noted that some terms, like in the case of Scythians, Goths, Huns and so on, later became generic terms often used no matter of the tribal actual origin and identity(!). The exact etymological origin of the five brothers and two sisters (as well first known ruler) is not known, and varies between Turkic, Iranian and Slavic (see the article "White Croats").

Nestor the Chronicler in his Primary Chronicle (12th century) mentions them, depending on manuscript, as Horvate Belii or Hrovate Belii: "Over a long period the Slavs settled beside the Danube, where the Hungarian and Bulgarian lands now lie. From among these Slavs, parties scattered throughout the country and were known by appropriate names, according to the places where they settled. Thus some came and settled by the river Morava, and were named Moravians, while others were called Czechs. Among these same Slavs are included the White Croats, the Serbs, and the Carinthians. For when the Vlakhs (Romans) attacked the Danubian Slavs, settled among them, and did them violence, the latter came and made their homes by the Vistula, and were then called Lyakhs (Lendians or Lechites). Of these same Lyakhs some were called Polyanians, some Lutichians, some Mazovians, and still others Pomorians". Other historical sources mention can be found in linked articles.

The epithets "white" for Croats and their homeland Croatia, as well "great" (megali) for Croatia, is in relation to the symbolism used in ancient times. The epithet "white" is related to the use of colors for cardinal directions among Eurasian people. It meant "Western Croats", in comparison to lands where they lived before. The epithet "great" signified "subsequently populated" land, but also "old, ancient, former" homeland for newly arrived Croats to the Roman province of Dalmatia.

Theories​

The theories were sometime elaborated in non-scientific terms, supported by specific ideological intentions, and often by political and cultural intentions of the time. There four main theories about the origin of the Croats:

  • Slavic
Pan-Slavic, is a theory which considers that Croats and Serbs, ie. all South Slavs belonged to the same group of pure Slavs who arrived in one migrational wave to "partially empty house". However, such a viewpoint was emphasized because of the political context and was the only officially accepted theory by the regime, and other theories or foreign elements in the ethnogenesis were usually ignored. The main problem with the theory was the fact that the Croatian (and Serbian) ethnonym could not be derived from the Slavic language.

Autochthonous-Slavic theory considers that the Slavs homeland was in the area of former Yugoslavia, and they spread northwards and westwards rather than the other way round. If a Slavic migration occured, the actual number of Slavic settlers was small and that the autochthonous ethnic substratum was prevalent in the formation of the Croats. However, there several issues with such a view point. One is that a possible autochthonous majority completely adopted minority's culture and language, without any exact trace of autochthonous heritage. Theoretically, this scenario can only be explained with the possible distortion of cultural and ethnic identity of native Romanized population that happened after the fall of West Roman Empire, and that the new Slavic language and culture was seen as a prestigious idiom they had to, or wanted to accept. Archaeological evidence of burial graves and cemetery types indicate an uninterrupted continuity of traditions from late antiquity, reflecting a contiguous demographic spread that chronologically matches with the arrival of Slavic-speaking groups. There's still debate about it.

  • Gothic
Without excluding that some Gothic segments could survive the collapse of Gothic Kingdom, is based on loose evidence. The main argument, about the ruling caste which was formed from the foreign non-Slavic warrior element, was the Gothic suffix mære (-mer, famous) found among the names of Croatian dukes on stone and written inscriptions, as well Slavic suffix -slav (slavan, famous), and that -mer eventually was changed with mir (peace), because the Slavs twisted the interpretation of the names according their language. Thus exist contradictory Ratimir, Trpimir, Zvonimir. The accounts from the late 12th and 13th work by Priest of Duklja and Thomas the Archdeacon, where Croats are identified with the Goths, can be easly reidentified with the Slavs, like in the case of seven or eight tribes of nobles, which he called "Lingones" (probably wrong transcription of a certain Slavic tribe, like Lendians), and arrived from present-day Poland, to the legend where the Croats were led by seven nobles (five brothers and two sisters).

  • Avar-Turkic
It was initially developed by Otto Kronsteiner in 1978, on several rejected claims. The theory considers Avar (Mongoloid Turkic-speaking nomadic tribes from the Steppe, similar to the Huns) origin. Later developed by Walter Pohl, the mention of two sisters is interpreted as additional elements which joined the alliance "by the maternal line", and the symbolism of the number seven is often encountered in the steppe peoples. Pohl noted that the Kronsteiner's merit was that, instead of the previously usual "ethnic" ethnogenesis, he proposed a "social" one. As such, Croatian name would not be an ethnonym, but a social designation for a group of elite warriors which ruled over the conquered Slavic population on the Avar Khaganate's boundary, the designation eventually becoming an ethnonym imposed to the Slavic groups. He did not support Kronstenier's derivation, nor consider the etymology important as it is impossible to establish the ethnic origin of "original Croats", i.e. the social categories which carried the title of "Hrvat".

  • Iranian
Iranian-Caucasian theory, dates to the 1797 and the doctoral dissertation by Josip Mikoczy-Blumenthal who, as the dissertation mysteriously disappeared in 1918 and was preserved only a short review, considered that Croats originated from Sarmatians who were descending from Medes in North-Western Iran. It is generally considered that the name of Croats - Hrvat/Horvat/Harvat, etymologically is not of Slavic origin, yet a borrowing from Iranian languages. It is considered that the ethnonym Hrvat is first attested on the two Tanais Tablets (the father of the devotional assembly Horouathon and the son of Horoathu, while on the smaller inscription Horoathos, the son of Sandarz, the archons of the Tanaisians), founded in the Greek colony of Tanais in the late 2nd and early 3rd century AD, at the time when the colony was surrounded by Iranian-speaking Sarmatians. First Iranian tribes who lived on the shores of Sea of Azov were Scythians, who arrived there c. 7th century BCE. Around 4th century BCE they withdrew before the incursions of Sarmatians. In that area happened extensive Early Slavic and Iranian cultural and linguistical contacts.

From the 4th until 7th century, Slavs who lived in that area and to the West between Dniester and Dnieper (both of Iranian etymology) in the medieval sources are known as Antes (Iranian etymology). It is considered that White Croats were part of the Antes tribal polity who migrated to Galicia in the 3rd-4th century, under pressure by invading Huns and Goths. They lived there until the Antes were attacked by the Pannonian Avars in 560, and the polity was finally destroyed 602 by the same Avars. The theory is further explained with the Avar's destruction of Antes tribal polity in 602, and that the early Croats migration and subsequent war with Avars in Dalmatia (during the reign of Heraclius 610-641) can be seen as continuation of war between Antes and Avars.

The thesis was subsequently supported by Francis Dvornik, George Vernadsky, Roman Jakobson, Tadeusz Sulimirski, and Oleg Trubachyov among others. In 1985, Omeljan Pritsak considered early Croats a clan of Alan-Iranian origin which during the "Avarian pax" had frontiersman-merchant social role.

The hetereogenous composition of the Croatian legend in which are unusually mentioned two women leaders Touga and Bouga indicate what the actual archaeological findings confirmed - the existence of "warrior women" known as Amazons among the Sarmatians and Scythians. As such, Trubachyov tried to explain the original proto-type of the ethnonym from adjectives *xar-va(n)t (feminine, rich in women), which derives from the etymology of Sarmatians, the Indo-Aryan *sar-ma(n)t (feminine), in both Indo-Iran adjective suffix -ma(n)t/wa(n)t, and Indo-Aryan and Indo-Iranian word *sar- (woman), which in Iranian gives *har.

Another interpretation was given by the scholar Jevgenij Paščenko, according to whom under the ethnonym Hrvati should not be necessary seen a specific or even homogeneous tribe, yet archaic religion and mythology of a heterogeneous group of people of Iranian origin or influence who worshiped the solar deity Hors (Sun, heavenly fire, force, war).

General consideration is that whether the early Croats have been Slavs who taken the name of Iranian origin or were ruled by Sarmatian elite caste, or were Slavicized Sarmatians, the remote Irano-Sarmatian elements or influences on the Croatian ethnogenesis cannot be entirely excluded.

However, following the Croatian ethnonym even further back in the past, in the the Achaemenid Empire (550-330 BCE) as noted before, or certain hurrwuhé and hurâti in the alleged kingdom Harauvatiya (2600-2323 BCE), Hurátina (2843-2578 BCE), Hurrwuhi-Ehelena (3520-3268 BCE) and Hurrwúrtu (4360-3710 BCE), and some other names in between, are very problematic. Firstly, while researching couldn't find information on those names and other connections, seemingly are from outdated sources and misunderstood. Secondly, although the suggestive similarity, it is etymologically incorrect, for example the region Arachosia (Harahuvatiš) in Indo-Iranian mean "one that pours into ponds", which derives from the name of (mythological) Sarasvati river. Thirdly, the genetic timeline doesn't abide with the Persian theory. Fourthly, following them to the Afghanistan-Pakistan and India, there's major departure from the evidence (and C's report) which is near Caucasus.

Croats and Serbs​
Thus, while there is difficult to detect (see the article "White Croats") an exact Croatian tribe by name in pre-9th century sources, it is generally considered that the Croatian name can be followed from the Balkan where arrived in the c. 630s AD from the area of Bohemia-Galicia, where arrived from the East ie. city of Tanais ie. somewhere north of the Sea of Azov (north of Caucasus) in 2nd-3rd century AD. For other scholars ethnonym etymologies see "Name of Croatia".

The Serbs also arrived in the 630s AD to the Balkan from the area of Bavaria-Bohemia, probably both during the uprising of the Slavs led by the king Samo in between 631 and 658 AD (temporally and geographically suited as passage). The name of the Serbs is considered to be of better luck as is mentioned by Pliny the Younger in his work Plinii Caecilii Secundi Historia naturalis from the first century AD (69–75), mentioned as Serbi, who lived near the Sarmatian tribes, presumably on the Black Sea and the Sea of Azov; and the 2nd century (around 175 AD), the Egyptian scientist Claudius Ptolemy mentioned in his Geography people named Serboi or Sirboi, who presumably lived in the north hinterland of the Caspian Sea (North-East from the Caucasus).

Conclusion​
According to the latest scholars considerations, both tribes came from the territory known as Sarmatia, and their ethnonyms can be historically, linguistically and geographically related to the Iranian languages - ie. the Scythian language which belong to the Eastern Iranian languages. The Scythians (including Sarmatians and Alans, although some migrated to Great Britain during Roman times, or Spain after leaving the Huns alliance) although influental, were entirely assimilated by the Slavs (perhaps not including the Northern Baltic Slavs). The Iranian-Scythian heritage can be seen in some elements, as the ethnonyms and toponyms, vocabulary, for example some consider words for god (*bogъ), demon (*divъ), house (*xata), axe (*toporъ) and dog (*sobaka), but the extensive contacts cannot be proof for the many considered loanwords due to the general Indo-European and Sanskrit roots of the words. Possible matriarchy. The same usage of colors for cardinal directions (general feature of Eurasian nomads). The solar deities Hors and Simargl. Possibly the official titles like župan, ban, gospodar, and many more.

The Iranian, was it ethnogenetical or ethnocultural influence, resulted with strong Slavic-speaking tribes of probably non-Slavic ethnonyms who managed to preserve their names in both Central-Eastern and Southern Europe until at least 20th century, becoming minorities and nations in Europe. With the arrival of those already heterogeneous tribes to the Balkan, there encountered other Slavs (who arrived before them in the 500s AD) and the indigenous population, probably hidden in the mountains. Why in the mountains? Because part of those populations were Romance speaking pastoralist communities (some later known as the Vlachs and Arbanasi) who lived a semi-nomadic lifestyle and geographically didn't need valleys for pasturage like the Slavs who were known for the agriculture (but it wasn't always the case). From that point on, started another and new chapter in ethnogenesis of the Croats and Serbs. The next chapter will discuss the genetics of humanity, and whether it can connect with these theories.
 
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