The Adaptive Unconscious
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Gertrudes
Guest
Thank you for this thread and the book excerpts :)
I am yet to read the books, but on the issue of realizing our own total lack of control, despite how despairing that may be (or not), acknowledging it helps to put our feet on the ground, so to say, so that we can actually take a step, and eventually walk. Without acknowledging it no step could be taken.
I suppose that our condition is what it is, and we can only work with what we have. But to work with it, we have to first know what we have.
I found the post on Benjamin Franklin (page 3), and how he worked on his character by setting up time defined goals, highly inspiring! So much so that I actually began to set up some goals in a similar fashion. I was feeling a bit out of sorts lately, and that really gave me focus. Thank you!
I am yet to read the books, but on the issue of realizing our own total lack of control, despite how despairing that may be (or not), acknowledging it helps to put our feet on the ground, so to say, so that we can actually take a step, and eventually walk. Without acknowledging it no step could be taken.
I suppose that our condition is what it is, and we can only work with what we have. But to work with it, we have to first know what we have.
I found the post on Benjamin Franklin (page 3), and how he worked on his character by setting up time defined goals, highly inspiring! So much so that I actually began to set up some goals in a similar fashion. I was feeling a bit out of sorts lately, and that really gave me focus. Thank you!
G
Gertrudes
Guest
Megan said:
Same here
But because I usually have a hard time transferring esoteric concepts into practice (I need practical examples that I can relate to, otherwise the concept tends to get lost as it is too abstract for me to make a connection to), I just resigned to my slowness and the fact that I was not getting it :)
The point is not to find some exact correspondence between Gurdjieff's ideas and modern cognitive science, but just to read the science and utilize it and if, and when, you find a particular correspondence to report it. But this must be done experimentally. Data first, hypothesis later.
mcb
The Living Force
Gertrudes said:Megan said:
Same here
But because I usually have a hard time transferring esoteric concepts into practice (I need practical examples that I can relate to, otherwise the concept tends to get lost as it is too abstract for me to make a connection to), I just resigned to my slowness and the fact that I was not getting it :)
I was thinking the same thing, but I was less willing to admit it.
But it turns out that we were getting it. This sounds like "narratives" at work.
Eongar
Dagobah Resident
Before Dabrowski has been mentioned, and I like to make my contribution based on the theory of positive disintegration. For me it is a piece that helps you see more clearly the ideas expressed in the work on oneself. It is an article, the problem is that it is written in Spanish, and I have not dared to translate because my English is not good enough, sorry.
https://es.sott.net/articles/show/10915-Dabrowski-y-la-Teoria-de-desintegracion-positiva
https://es.sott.net/articles/show/10915-Dabrowski-y-la-Teoria-de-desintegracion-positiva
mcb
The Living Force
It has been some weeks now since I read The Adaptive Unconscious and I may need to read it again because all the different books I am reading, often concurrently, start to merge in my head after a while and I can't remember what came from where.
What I do remember about this book is that it reminded me of many things about the mind that I was taught during my early esoteric explorations, taking workshops back in the early 1980's. I was surprised (and dismayed) at how much I had forgotten! There were new insights as well.
This information, or at least the everyday application of it, is essential. I am glad to see it coming out in book form.
What I do remember about this book is that it reminded me of many things about the mind that I was taught during my early esoteric explorations, taking workshops back in the early 1980's. I was surprised (and dismayed) at how much I had forgotten! There were new insights as well.
This information, or at least the everyday application of it, is essential. I am glad to see it coming out in book form.
I've just finished reading the kindle version and I think I may have identified an example of the adaptive unconscious at work in me.
I have suffered problems with anxiety and there is a level on which I have had the tendency to label those contexts/environments where I feel anxious as always producing anxiety. But the reality of the situation is that it isn't always true.
My anxiety may have a genetic component in that it is said that my grandmother suffered from agoraphobia and my mother is an extremely anxious person. So I'm wondering if some of my anxiety is 'learned' on a level because that was in the environment that I adapted to?
For example shopping centres. Some of the worst anxiety attacks I've had have occured in shopping centres, around 50% of the time I can go to a shopping centre and be totally fine. But if I recall going shopping with my mum, she was always anxious, snappy and very reactive in shopping centres. I'm most unlikely to have an anxiety attack in a shopping centre if I go shopping alone.
I'm beginning to wonder if it is the adaptive unconscious that is most influenced by classical conditioning? In drive theory and training where a particular positive drive for survival is utilised for training an animal the resultant behaviours are said to be "adrenalin based subconscious reactions to stimuli" and training in drive is heavily influenced by classical conditioning.
I have suffered problems with anxiety and there is a level on which I have had the tendency to label those contexts/environments where I feel anxious as always producing anxiety. But the reality of the situation is that it isn't always true.
My anxiety may have a genetic component in that it is said that my grandmother suffered from agoraphobia and my mother is an extremely anxious person. So I'm wondering if some of my anxiety is 'learned' on a level because that was in the environment that I adapted to?
For example shopping centres. Some of the worst anxiety attacks I've had have occured in shopping centres, around 50% of the time I can go to a shopping centre and be totally fine. But if I recall going shopping with my mum, she was always anxious, snappy and very reactive in shopping centres. I'm most unlikely to have an anxiety attack in a shopping centre if I go shopping alone.
I'm beginning to wonder if it is the adaptive unconscious that is most influenced by classical conditioning? In drive theory and training where a particular positive drive for survival is utilised for training an animal the resultant behaviours are said to be "adrenalin based subconscious reactions to stimuli" and training in drive is heavily influenced by classical conditioning.
Ok, so I'm on the last chapter of 'Strangers to Ourselves'. I started reading this thread during Christmas, and like others mentioned, it actually made me depressed (Christmas didn't help). That is, the idea that we are nothing, or almost nothing, and that we are almost entirely controlled by mechanisms of which we know very little. That we are machines. Not that I didn't know that already - it just hit me.
Eventually, as days passed and I read more, that depression turned into insight and determination. Although I had known of Gurdjieff for years, I don't think I ever understood and saw so clearly the terror of the situation, i.e. how it is literally true that nothing can be done without Work on the self, because otherwise it is the machine doing it and nothing more. Doing good things for others, loving, being creative and heroic - all those nice ideals that I would like to guide my life are all dust if there is not a considerable amount of Work involved. It's not just the obvious programs but even the things we think are the best of us.
I don't expect me, nor any of us, to ever be fully in charge of ourselves, as I don't think it's possible for human beings (didn't the Cs say that in 3D the unconscious amounted to something like 98% of the mind?*), but a minimum amount of will and consciousness, I believe is possible and desireable. So my mind has been fixed lately on the idea that all that matters - or what matters the most, anyway - is the Work. Learning how to do what 'it' does not want to if it's right, learning to see myself through the eyes of others and my behaviour, quitting all other pretenses or at least letting them be secondary. So that at some point with that minimum of will and consciousness I can truly do some good and love as a real man.
In short, if I got something from this book it was clarity and determination. But knowing how the adaptive unconscious operates, lets see how long I can make it last. A man awakes for a minute, falls back to sleep and then dreams that he is awake. I don't mean to say this in a defeatist tone, but as a matter of fact, as something I have seen happen in myself repeatedly and with which I have to struggle. So, onwards and upwards.
*Session reference needed.
Eventually, as days passed and I read more, that depression turned into insight and determination. Although I had known of Gurdjieff for years, I don't think I ever understood and saw so clearly the terror of the situation, i.e. how it is literally true that nothing can be done without Work on the self, because otherwise it is the machine doing it and nothing more. Doing good things for others, loving, being creative and heroic - all those nice ideals that I would like to guide my life are all dust if there is not a considerable amount of Work involved. It's not just the obvious programs but even the things we think are the best of us.
I don't expect me, nor any of us, to ever be fully in charge of ourselves, as I don't think it's possible for human beings (didn't the Cs say that in 3D the unconscious amounted to something like 98% of the mind?*), but a minimum amount of will and consciousness, I believe is possible and desireable. So my mind has been fixed lately on the idea that all that matters - or what matters the most, anyway - is the Work. Learning how to do what 'it' does not want to if it's right, learning to see myself through the eyes of others and my behaviour, quitting all other pretenses or at least letting them be secondary. So that at some point with that minimum of will and consciousness I can truly do some good and love as a real man.
In short, if I got something from this book it was clarity and determination. But knowing how the adaptive unconscious operates, lets see how long I can make it last. A man awakes for a minute, falls back to sleep and then dreams that he is awake. I don't mean to say this in a defeatist tone, but as a matter of fact, as something I have seen happen in myself repeatedly and with which I have to struggle. So, onwards and upwards.
*Session reference needed.
Buddy
The Living Force
Windmill knight said:
I SEE you.
I have also recently experienced a kind of visceral realization of the distinction between some Work ideas and the way the ideas are expressed by various people in varied contexts. With regard to 'being mechanical' or 'being biological machines', there is little reason to be sad about this. It just means we are thoroughly connected, on every level and scale, to Nature's ecology; and to our programming, we are naturally very responsive.
Lately I've been thinking that what infects us with negativity and that bias towards 'negational identity' at times, are the cultural memes of people with profoundly limited awareness and a delusional state of mind. People who insist on their own indescribable importance all the time - and thinking that, because of this indescribable importance, every aspect of their being must also be indescribably important and not like mundane, inferior things at all. Oh no, they have no connection with the universe at all, do they?
In the real multi-verse, everything fits together. We live in a universe of cycles where there is no beginning and no end. In biology, we have the idea of plants feeding on fungus, insects feeding on plants, animals feeding on insects and fungus feeding on animals. No end; no beginning, so it's rather like fungus is the bottom and the top of the food chain at the same time. Even if it were not possible to achieve anything in terms of conscious evolution, I could be quite happy to be a thermodynamic or energetic equivalent of a fungus. It means I'm useful and needed. It's the very confined rigidity of those snooty azzhats that make them so limited in their usefulness to the universe, OSIT. :)
obyvatel
The Living Force
Buddy said:
Being part of organic life, we are connected to nature's ecology - whether we admit it, celebrate it or ignore it. One can play different roles in the overall chain of interconnectedness - one could simply be food for higher density negative beings or one could strive towards a different reality. Gurdjieff described this as the "two rivers of life". Mouravieff too talks about this in Gnosis under the terms General Law and the Law Of Exception. For those wishing to join the second stream of life and enter the domain of the Law Of Exception, the realization of being mechanical is painful and that pain serves as the fuel required to seriously undertake 4th Way Work.
[quote author=Bud]
Lately I've been thinking that what infects us with negativity and that bias towards 'negational identity' at times, are the cultural memes of people with profoundly limited awareness and a delusional state of mind. People who insist on their own indescribable importance all the time - and thinking that, because of this indescribable importance, every aspect of their being must also be indescribably important and not like mundane, inferior things at all. Oh no, they have no connection with the universe at all, do they?
[/quote]
Have you had the chance to read any of the recently recommended books in this section of the forum - including the current topic? If you did then maybe you would see that the "they" you are referring to who have delusional states of mind may not necessarily exclude "you".
[quote author=Bud]
In the real multi-verse, everything fits together. We live in a universe of cycles where there is no beginning and no end. In biology, we have the idea of plants feeding on fungus, insects feeding on plants, animals feeding on insects and fungus feeding on animals. No end; no beginning, so it's rather like fungus is the bottom and the top of the food chain at the same time. Even if it were not possible to achieve anything in terms of conscious evolution, I could be quite happy to be a thermodynamic or energetic equivalent of a fungus. It means I'm useful and needed. It's the very confined rigidity of those snooty azzhats that make them so limited in their usefulness to the universe, OSIT. :)
[/quote]
Perhaps this goes some way in explaining the persistent resistance that you have been exhibiting towards even considering the objective data provided in the recently recommended books in this section of the forum which bring out the mechanicalness and lack of conscious evolution in humanity at large.
[quote author=Bud]
[/quote]
To me, it seems that the essence of the above quote is captured in the bolded portion above - daydreaming - or what Gurdjieff referred to as "sheep pretending to be magicians".
BTW, I am not sure if you saw Laura's post here .
Mrs.Tigersoap
The Living Force
Gertrudes said:Same here
But because I usually have a hard time transferring esoteric concepts into practice (I need practical examples that I can relate to, otherwise the concept tends to get lost as it is too abstract for me to make a connection to), I just resigned to my slowness and the fact that I was not getting it :)
And same here. As I was saying earlier, just before I began reading You are not so smart and Strangers to Ourselves, I had been thinking on and off about how all my life people around me were always telling me that I'm intelligent or something along these lines. I'm not sure why, to be honest: nothing I say is the cat's pyjamas (maybe because I remember stuff they don't?), but there it was. So sure enough, I started believing it. And this puts me sometimes in a position where I need to confirm this idea that others have of me: with what I say, what I do. And to some extent, it does help: I will try not to answer too quickly and think before I say something, etc. So I do learn stuff by pretending to be intelligent!
And when I realized that I was working at it, I thought 'Hmm... you're probably not as intelligent as others think' and it was both hurtful and a relief: I could just let my hair down, basically. No need to make an effort anymore. So I took the opposite direction: 'Why bother? I'm an idjit anyway". I can see how this all could very quickly become a self-fulfilling prophecy...
Biomiast
Jedi Master
Windmill Knight said:
I too have realized all the good things I have done were simply my unconscious tricks me to do to feel good about myself. Not only this is depressing, but also makes me question myself as to is there anything real in me? If all I have done is selfish in a certain way and I mask it from myself, where is true love or how can I reach it? Is there any quality in me that makes this love attainable?
I know we have talked about higher centers or things like that, but from where I stand, I can not see anything but selfishness on my part, and I am not sure I experience any love, kindness, sympathy towards anyone, I just pretend that I do, without knowing I am pretending. I have recently come to see ALL my actions were based on "how I feel about doing this", "what would others think about me", "is this satisfies my ego" and selfish thoughts like that.
In a practical sense, after you see the lies your false personality creates, what can you do about it? I don't feel or experience any genuine, pure emotion towards anybody, or so I think. I somehow expected after realizing this DCM would hit me with pure emotions that can be replaced with old ones, but it seems this is not gonna happen. My ego, still thinks it is special after all these pain and suffering.
Psalehesost
The Living Force
Biomiast said:In a practical sense, after you see the lies your false personality creates, what can you do about it? I don't feel or experience any genuine, pure emotion towards anybody, or so I think. I somehow expected after realizing this DCM would hit me with pure emotions that can be replaced with old ones, but it seems this is not gonna happen. My ego, still thinks it is special after all these pain and suffering.
I think all we can do is to keep up the efforts of seeing ourselves as we are. When the last lie dies - the last, deeply rooted lie within us - perhaps the false personality will die as well, leaving an emptiness where, perhaps, something new might be able to grow. Perhaps - that's all we can hope for, I think. We shouldn't count on anything, but however it turns out in the end, truth is beautiful - even when it feels horrible - and worthwhile in itself, and the only genuine reason we have to keep going.
Appreciation for truth might well be the only real thing in us - and as such, it is our only hope.
