The Carnivore Diet

[goyacobol]

I experienced something similar on the ketogenic diet. When I was on 0 carbs, I would wake up at 5am (sometimes 4am), wide awake and feeling rested, looking forward to breakfast! Some nights I'd wake up, feeling wide awake, in the middle of the night (2-3am), after which I'd go for a smoke and then back to sleep again for a couple of hours (smoking actually helped me feel wanting to go back to sleep). I don't think I ever slept and felt rested after only 3 hours, though, but people are different. I personally think it's natural, and perhaps you will revert back to 6-7 hours at some point? I'd say keep a close eye on how things go.

I also have experienced a similar effect of the lower carb ketogenic/paleo now leaning more towards the Carnivore diet. I was attributing the need for less sleep mostly to the smoking aspect but after reading some other's experience I see it can also be the effects of the diet.

I still think smoking has been a part of my requiring less sleep too. I know this thread is more about the Carnivore diet but the sleep observations may relate to the benefits of smoking. But smoking is not for everyone.

Session 27 June 1998:

Q: What altered my chosen balancing mechanism?

A: First: what is your chosen balancing mechanism?

Q: Do you mean something physical in my body?

A: Close.

Q: I don't know. Going to the gym?

A: No.

Q: Something about the way I work or function?

A: No. Something you, or one, takes into the body.

Q: Thyroid pills?

A: This substance raises hemoglobin levels.

Q: What?! I quit smoking?!

A: Yes.

Q: How can smoking be a balancing mechanism?

A: Speeds up metabolism, thus allowing greater food intake.

Q: Well, all it did for me was allow me to eat at all! I guess that now I will have to quit eating completely forever!

A: Or bring nicotine back.

Q: Well, that's not gonna happen! Isn't there something else that would work?

A: No.

Q: So, you are saying that nicotine is actually good for me?

A: Yes. Without it, you will remain with weight problems, because you will not be able to lower food intake enough to compensate. Why do you think you had the inkling to start smoking in the first place?

Q: Well, I just was going along with my friends, I thought.

A: No.

Q: What other things does nicotine do?

A: Raises defences.

Q: What kind?

A: Immunological.

Q: Anything else?

A: Excites neurotransmitters. You require less sleep.

Q: Is this true for everyone?

A: No.

Q: (A) How much nicotine is necessary?

A: 100 mg per day.

Q: (A) Can it be in pill form?

A: Cigarettes infuse it to brain tissues most effectively.

 

[Keyhole]

After Christmas I went back on a very close to zero carb carnivore diet (only a few nuts every now and then), and I started slowly to feel my 'mojo' returning – less fatigue, better and clearer thinking and a more positive mood. So, this is clearly a diet that has many beneficial effects on me, but I've lately developed a little problem – if it's a problem at all. Namely, I need much less sleep. The past weeks I've been sleeping between 4-5 hours per night, and at first it raised some concerns. However, I felt that after this short sleep it was completely impossible for me to sleep more, even when I took some extra melatonin, since I felt completely fine and rested.

If it wasn't for Jordan Peterson, who mentioned that he could manage with 3 hours of sleep since going on the 'lion diet', I would have been really concerned. Have you guys who are on the carnivore diet experienced anything similar?

Last night I slept only 3 hours, and since I had a pretty laborious work day ahead with 8 different lessons with teaching, I felt a little bit worried. I kept waiting for the 'crash' to occur, but it never came! After the last lesson, I was surprised to feel almost no tiredness.

I've searched similar testimonials on the web, and it looks like there are others who have experienced similar things. What worries me is that I have no idea if this a good thing in the long run, it's almost too good to be true. Any thoughts?

Get a blood glucose meter and measure your fasting blood glucose. Anything about 5 and you are likely experiencing a massive upregulation of cortisol.

If it continues, this diet is probably not for you... because the sleep thing WILL catch up with your body. I consult with a lot of carnivore "failures"... and this is not a good sign. It can just be a temporary thing and often times it naturally straightens out, but if it persists then you should reconsider things.

To modulate/lower nightime cortisol, you can try phosphatidyl serine at 300mg in the evening to see if that helps in the meantime

 

[anartist]

Get a blood glucose meter and measure your fasting blood glucose. Anything about 5 and you are likely experiencing a massive upregulation of cortisol.

If it continues, this diet is probably not for you... because the sleep thing WILL catch up with your body. I consult with a lot of carnivore "failures"... and this is not a good sign. It can just be a temporary thing and often times it naturally straightens out, but if it persists then you should reconsider things.

To modulate/lower nightime cortisol, you can try phosphatidyl serine at 300mg in the evening to see if that helps in the meantime

Hi @Keyhole. Did you mean above 5mmol/L for fasting (upon awakening) or around/about 5, say 4.5 to 5.5mmol/L?
I have heard of, and experienced, the Dawn phenomena, where my fasting blood glucose is higher in the morning (I thought because of the cortisol spike you get that wakens you) and then it goes down. Lately though I have not been getting this, now my fasting glucose is around 4-4.6, and then goes up a little.
what do you think of this explanation
and this guy makes a lot of sense also, especially if you are just starting out keto/carni
It sounds like @aragorn was keto/carni before Xmas, and after a break has returned to it, so perhaps this is just a temporary thing, as you say is possible Keyhole. Did you notice a similar effect when you first started keto/carno aragorn?

 

[Keyhole]

Hi @Keyhole. Did you mean above 5mmol/L for fasting (upon awakening) or around/about 5, say 4.5 to 5.5mmol/L?
I have heard of, and experienced, the Dawn phenomena, where my fasting blood glucose is higher in the morning (I thought because of the cortisol spike you get that wakens you) and then it goes down. Lately though I have not been getting this, now my fasting glucose is around 4-4.6, and then goes up a little.
what do you think of this explanation
and this guy makes a lot of sense also, especially if you are just starting out keto/carni
It sounds like @aragorn was keto/carni before Xmas, and after a break has returned to it, so perhaps this is just a temporary thing, as you say is possible Keyhole. Did you notice a similar effect when you first started keto/carno aragorn?

Yes sorry, it was a typo. I meant to say above 5 mmol/L. Thanks for the correction!

A temporary elevation is normal, although if it goes on for long enough - coupled with elevated HbA1c (5%+), then it is generally problematic as per my understanding.

 

[Oxajil]

Interesting blog post by Nora Gedgaudas on the Carnivore Diet: My Beef With The Carnivore Diet

She points out the need for veggies (the ones you tolerate):

Also, rather uniquely in the genre, I make a point of taking into account the unprecedentedly hostile, stressful, toxic modern world and incomprehensibly compromising conditions (on every possible level) that we live in today. The truth is, we need to compensate for things today that our prehistoric ancestors would simply never have even begun to conceive of or fathom.

As such, I have argued that fibrous vegetables and greens–although never having been scientifically established as truly “essential” for us (as no carbohydrate is)–may have more to offer us today than during any prior time in our long evolutionary history. Many do contain beneficial phytochemicals and antioxidant nutrients and other useful compounds that are demonstrably helpful for badly needed detoxification and extra support in our toxic world. Certain plant foods provide well-documented hormetic and even medicinal effects that may add to our potentially health optimizing arsenal. Cruciferous vegetables, alone, contain beneficial sulforaphane, indoles, isothyocyanates, carotenoids, etc. and many brassica-based compounds have shown profound detoxication (particularly of airborne pollutants and things like cadmium, PAH, xenobiotics, dioxin and other toxic compounds) and significant anti-inflammatory, and even anti-cancer benefits. They can also help induce the production of helpful detoxification enzymes and glutathione synthesis.

She also writes that excessive protein can supply cancer fueling growth factors. FWIW.

 

[anartist]

Interesting blog post by Nora Gedgaudas on the Carnivore Diet: My Beef With The Carnivore Diet

She points out the need for veggies (the ones you tolerate):


She also writes that excessive protein can supply cancer fueling growth factors. FWIW.

I get Nora's point. But I am not convinced about excessive protein, especially if it is consumed over one meal. MTOR is part of the anabolic process, and we need anabolism to grow/repair/rebuild, we can't be in a constant catabolic state, we have to balance. More protein than we need eaten many times over a day , such as three meals, would overly and unnecessarily stimulate MTOR, and that is a risk for cancer. Working out in a fasted state, and following that up with a protein heavy meal, for example, would restrict a strong anabolic state to a short time frame.
Exposing ourselves to the toxins, including lectins and oxalates, in vegetable matter can create a hormetic response, and keep our immune system strong, just look at the powerful beneficial affects of smoking.

 

[nicklebleu]

I get Nora's point. But I am not convinced about excessive protein

Same here, especially if you are combining this with intermittent fasting AND low carbs (the Inuit diet comes to mind).

At the end of the day, I doubt that there is any solid research on this question, so it’s back to the old adage: Experiment and see what happens - not every diet is right for everybody.

 

[Meechel17]

Well, after a holiday in Belize in December, where I fell off the keto wagon, got very sick with a nasty bug of some kind - got home and felt awful for a week, and took two more to really feel like myself, I decided to bite the bullet and try the Carnivore diet. After eating corn, rice and beans for most of three weeks in Belize, I wasn't sure if I was still sick, or having a "keto flu", or what, but I stuck with it - eating cheese to try and stay off vegetables and chocolate. So I am three weeks in - not losing any weight as I am not being strict about portions and have now gotten rid of cheese as I am able to control my cravings with meat and eggs. I am still having coffee with coconut milk and stevia with my break-fast, but I am gradually going decaf, and will likely cut it out completely at some point. Which is so sad as I really love a nice creamy coffee, but I am sure the coconut milk is causing problems. I am also using everly crystals in my water still to make sure I drink enough.
I'm pretty happy that I'm where I'm at, but I'm ready to start taking it up a notch where I'm having appropriate fat and protein for my activity level and goals. I'm also pretty happy that I'm not stuck near the bathroom for the first half of the day - that lasted a few days after about a week in. It was unpleasant to say the least, ha ha!
I've been having some troubles sleeping, but unlike some have commented, I'm not rested, and I'm a little "on edge" from lack of sleep. I am pretty sure that is my coffee - gonna cut my amount in half tomorrow and going forward, and it will be 2/3 decaf, soon to be 100% decaf.
Energy levels are similar to keto levels when I get enough sleep, so that is good. And my skin is clearing up now that I am off cheese and the carbs I succumbed to in Belize.
I'm quite amazed at this point that I am quite happy eating salted meat and eggs for all my meals - I've always been a huge "foodie" and especially a veggie lover. I'm still cooking keto/paleo for my husband and it isn't even bothering me not to eat that stuff. That is amazing!

 

[aragorn]

Thanks for the replies to my inquiries. I found the site posted by anartist very helpful, and I highly recommend reading everything here:

Start Here - Kevin Stock

The website of Dr. Kevin Stock sharing his research in health, his yearly challenges including art and music, and his noteable Saturday 7 newsletter.

www.kevinstock.io

and on it's companion site:

Meat Health

meat.health

I've now read his 30-day carnivore guide, and some other stuff, and I think what's going on with me is an adaptation period. Although I've been low carb for ca 10 years, and keto for almost as long, I've for the most part always eaten a tiny bit of vegetables with my meat (mainly at work, for not to appear too weird). From reading, it appears that ditching veggies (and the small amount of fiber) that goes with it, will cause all kinds of adaptation symptoms – i.e. 'keto-flu' nr. 2. The details he mentions are all interesting, and those that fit my situation right now are insomnia and nocturia i.e. peeing at night (which I never had before).

I'm going to stick to this diet for a while longer and see if things change. Overall, I feel good, so I'm very curious to see if continuing this will make an even greater difference once I break through the 'barrier' of adaptation. The key seems to be, from what I read, that you must not cheat with even a tiny bit of veggies – just meat and water! I think that during the previous period I was on the carnivore diet, I really wasn't, since I every now and then ate veggies (although a very tiny amount).

 

[jhonny]

Exposing ourselves to the toxins, including lectins and oxalates, in vegetable matter can create a hormetic response, and keep our immune system strong

I'm not convinced this is good for everyone, because we are already exposed to many toxins in our environment, so by exposing ourselves voluntarily to more toxins wouldn't be a good idea.
What I think regarding this matter of vegies is, we need to choose the less damaging ones like cruciferous vegetables, avocados, cabbages and others.
I'm currently doing a Carnivore-Keto(ish) diet with some veggies (evening meal) mencioned above, 2 days of just bone broth, and the rest of the days with liver, bacon, lean meat, and some eggyolks. As breakfast I just have a bulletproof coffee (Ghee and mct oil). I'm very ok with this.

My 2 cents.

 

[aragorn]

I'm not convinced this is good for everyone, because we are already exposed to many toxins in our environment, so by exposing ourselves voluntarily to more toxins wouldn't be a good idea.
What I think regarding this matter of vegies is, we need to choose the less damaging ones like cruciferous vegetables, avocados, cabbages and others.
I'm currently doing a Carnivore-Keto(ish) diet with some veggies (evening meal) mencioned above, 2 days of just bone broth, and the rest of the days with liver, bacon, lean meat, and some eggyolks. As breakfast I just have a bulletproof coffee (Ghee and mct oil). I'm very ok with this.

My 2 cents.

I agree. I’m aware of how there are individual differences, and how many experts like Nora G. promote the idea of eating some veggies, but I’m starting to think that maybe the healthiness of vegetables is one of the ‘greatest hoaxes’ out there. Even the paleo gurus aren’t ready to completely abandon recommending them in small amounts, because surely there must be something good in eating them? I’m no expert, but my gut feeling is that there’s something off with this whole ‘eat your veggies’ business!

 

[Chad]

Same here, especially if you are combining this with intermittent fasting AND low carbs (the Inuit diet comes to mind).

At the end of the day, I doubt that there is any solid research on this question, so it’s back to the old adage: Experiment and see what happens - not every diet is right for everybody.

I'd agree that it's a case of trial and error, and using what we're learning as a guide. Because, using the Inuit diet as one example, if it's true that some of these groups of people are quite genetically distinct (as one article points out Nunavik Inuit genetically unique among present-day world populations, study finds) then how much of their diet also relates to their genetics/epigenetics?

This article about the genetics of 3,800 year old woman found in Japan comes to mind:

The woman, who was elderly when she died, had a high tolerance for alcohol, unlike some modern Japanese people, a genetic analysis revealed. She also had moderately dark skin and eyes and an elevated chance of developing freckles.

Surprisingly, the ancient woman shared a gene variant with people who live in the Arctic, one that helps people digest high-fat foods. This variant is found in more than 70% of the Arctic population, but it's absent elsewhere, said study first author Hideaki Kanzawa, a curator of anthropology at the National Museum of Nature and Science in Tokyo.

But then, can we even be sure we know what genes are doing what? When the epigenetics become activated? I don't know. Maybe for some things?

As Gedgaudas points out, ancient people weren't and aren't exposed to the same environment that we are today, and they didn't grow up eating the foods most of us have - and could our dietary history have an effect on our current dietary requirements?

That said, i'm not in full agreement with Gedgaudas - who, by the way, is offering a new service providing eating plans and an education program for customers (costing ~$300?), and in the short video i watched advertising it she does discuss the above briefly .

So yeah, I do think that we should experiment, find what works for us and bear in mind that with time, as we age, depending on a number of factors, from the time of year, what's going on in our lives, how physically/mentally taxing it is, and so on, our needs may change.

 

[Oxajil]

I agree. I’m aware of how there are individual differences, and how many experts like Nora G. promote the idea of eating some veggies, but I’m starting to think that maybe the healthiness of vegetables is one of the ‘greatest hoaxes’ out there. Even the paleo gurus aren’t ready to completely abandon recommending them in small amounts, because surely there must be something good in eating them? I’m no expert, but my gut feeling is that there’s something off with this whole ‘eat your veggies’ business!

There's not necessarily a need for veggies (depends on the person). Nora says that considering the toxic world we live in, some veggies can help with detoxification. She also recommends tests to see which veggies you can tolerate and which you can't. In addition, it also brings more variety to your plate. I agree that everyone would have to see what works best for them. I like to have some veggies!

Also, the C's said:

A: For many, the transition in diet is either not possible due to epigenetic factors, or must be undertaken very, very slowly. For some, the requirements for carbohydrates is higher. They need to fulfill this need as safely as possible. In this case, the individual has intuited the relationship and should do some experimental adjustments adding root type vegetables and some greens and berries.

 

[Keyhole]

There's not necessarily a need for veggies (depends on the person). Nora says that considering the toxic world we live in, some veggies can help with detoxification. She also recommends tests to see which veggies you can tolerate and which you can't. In addition, it also brings more variety to your plate. I agree that everyone would have to see what works best for them. I like to have some veggies!

Also, the C's said:

It seems to be the case for some people. I have taken a LOT of people OFF of the carnivore diet and many have felt better for it. On the other hand, I also put many people on the diet and they also feel better.

It is tricky to pinpoint whether it is suitable for you or not. I have come to the conclusion it is not for me, at least not all of the time 24/7 all year round anyway.

I used to be a fan of Nora, but now tend to disagree with a lot that she says. Her demonization of protein is silly IMO and makes a lot of people feel worse. She is also orange to look at, which makes me suspect she has excessive carotenoids deposited in her skin. She certainly does not look healthy in my eyes, anyway.

 

[Meechel17]

After reading Kevin Stock's stuff that Aragorn so helpfully posted, I am not going to start eating proper portion sizes, etc. It looks like I'm on track for what he recommends, so I'm going to do his 3 levels and see what happens! I'm pretty optimistic :)