The Carnivore Diet

[Keyhole]

The mTOR stuff is mostly based on animal data and lacks necessary context I personally think.

In fact, most people who fail to thrive on animal-based, keto, or low carb from what I have seen so far do so because they don't eat enough protein!Weight loss, muscle loss etc all tend to occur when protein intake goes below 1g/kg body weight.

Now, therapeutic ketosis for a condition like cancer, epilepsy, or type 1 diabetes requires lower protein intake for obvious reasons.

That said - here is an excellent interview on mTOR and protein "causing cancer":

mTOR starting at 24:57:

 

[aragorn]

Thanks, Keyhole for your input. That was a great interview you posted, I really liked these two (Saladino & Lyon).

So, it seems like the connection between high protein, mTOR' and cancer is made up, just like with animal fats, cholesterol and cardiovascular disease. This talk in the video above confirmed my initial layman's thought as I read some of those studies: that even if they've found 'upregulated mTOR's' in many cancer patients, that doesn't mean that there's a linear connection. An upregulated mTOR does promote growth (that's it's main purpose), and thus in a cancer patient it would promote growth of the cancer cells, but it does not initiate the cancer – there's no proof of upregulated mTOR (by high protein) initiating cancer.

And as they say in the video, the thing that activates mTOR even more is insulin – so why is animal protein suddenly the bad guy?!

I went through the article by Gedgauda's a few more times to get a sense where she's getting her confidence regarding the mTOR-cancer connection. It looks like she relies for the most part, if not solely, on the lectures of Ron Rosedale. She writes:

"The recent AHS19 talk given by medical pioneer and metabolic expert, Ron Rosedale, MD (link below article) underscores this concern about excessive protein consumption in no uncertain terms. No rational, honest person can dismiss his meticulously considered arguments and conclusions."

And here's the link to to Ron's talk she talks about:

Well, I had a look at what he is saying about the mTOR-thingy (he talks about it towards the end), and have started to collect those studies he is referring to. After a quick read through a few of them, the evidence for the dangers of high animal protein does not seem too convincing. Rosedale makes a whole lot of assumptions that are not necessarily there. For instance, one of the reasons for the recommendation for restricting protein consumption to 1g/kg of body weight comes from the fact that this equals the protein ratio in mother's milk. Rosedale says that (paraphrased) "...since infancy is the time when you as a human grow the most, this protein ratio is optimal, and you shouldn't need more."

However, as they say in the video with Saladino, if you want to stay healthy as you get older, you need more protein than when you were younger!

Out of curiosity I'm gonna read these studies Rosedale cites (which Gedgauda's conviction is apparently based on), and I'll post if I find something interesting. Right now I'm starting to think that Gedgauda's is convincing herself of these bogus claims because it helps her promote her own program (The Primalgenic Plan). Luckily there seems to be many other even smarter nutritionist out there (like Saladino and Keyhole) these days.

 

[RedFox]

Really interesting stuff Keyhole.
Hopefully not too off topic, but I've been thinking the last few days about what resources the body would need in order to adapt to the coming changes, or in general (the mind needing the right knowledge/attitude).
If as mentioned in the video the muscles are used as a pool of amino acid resources in times of healing, I'd assume they are used for adaptation/overcoming stressful situations too? Eating more meat/increasing muscle density through weight lifting might be super useful then.

 

[luc]

In fact, most people who fail to thrive on animal-based, keto, or low carb from what I have seen so far do so because they don't eat enough protein!Weight loss, muscle loss etc all tend to occur when protein intake goes below 1g/kg body weight.

That was my experience as well - I couldn't do with low to zero carb AND protein restriction. Carnivore seems to work better, which in my case means lots of protein, and not that much fat. However, there are still some issues, what seems to work for me is having certain veggies and in the evening from time to time (those I tolerate). Some carbs in the evening don't seem to hurt either, at least in forms I tolerate well. But sticking to meat during the day seems important in my case. So carnivore by day, Paleo by night kinda thing

I also remember Scottie saying something about the fact that our nutritional needs seem to change over time - this has been my experience as well. Maybe it depends on our inner states, minds, physical shape, hidden illnesses etc. in ways we don't fully understand, or perhaps it is also related to some natural/cosmic cycles? Whatever the reason, it's useful to keep that in mind when experimenting IMO.

Thanks Keyhole for diving into all that so thoroughly

 

[Gaby]

Eating more meat/increasing muscle density through weight lifting might be super useful then.

That's the standard advice to avoid cachexia in fragile elderly populations: eat more protein and build up some muscle mass.

 

[anartist]

Probably the post is not in the topic, but while studying the nutrition of hunter-gatherers, I came across this schedule and I was interested in something, namely the roots.
After reading about the edible roots, I found in them one common thing is inulin
Inulin is a pretty strong prebiotic that can nourish the intestinal microbiome a little more efficiently than regular fiber, and many hunter-gatherer nations from Native Americans to Ainu consume roots
I’ll just suggest to those who may have problems on the carnivore diet, for example, drink chicory (2-6 teaspoons a day) if you don’t want your microbiome to starve so you can feed the bacteria and still keep 0 carb for the drink will be almost free of carbohydrates
View attachment 33972

I find it hard to beieve the Inuit diet consisted of (approx. it looks like) 5% fruits and vegetables.Unless that 5% was 'sea vegetables' and a few berries in the summer. Even that is a stretch. Do you have a source for this chart?

 

[anartist]

That's the standard advice to avoid cachexia in fragile elderly populations: eat more protein and build up some muscle mass.

Yes, and something like KAATSU is an awesome way to easily build up muscle, especially for the elderly. You can build muscle when only lifting around 10% of your maximum. I have a system and highly recommend it

 

[anartist]

Paul Saladino, MD, who has researched the carnivore diet apparently extensively, is soon coming out with a book:

The Carnivore Code: Unlocking the Secrets to Optimal Health by Returning to Our Ancestral Diet - Kindle edition by Saladino MD, Paul. Health, Fitness & Dieting Kindle eBooks @ Amazon.com.

The Carnivore Code: Unlocking the Secrets to Optimal Health by Returning to Our Ancestral Diet - Kindle edition by Saladino MD, Paul. Download it once and read it on your Kindle device, PC, phones or tablets. Use features like bookmarks, note taking and highlighting while reading The Carnivore...

www.amazon.com

I'm not too familiar with him or his work, but Mikhaila Peterson sometimes shares links where he features. Here's one clip where he calmly tries to defend his position against the 'hyenas' on the TV show The Doctors:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1224396931444572160

I have been listening to a two hour interview by Dr Mercola with Dr Saladino, and I am impressed with Dr Saladinos perspective and knowledge.

 

[Tyomodachi]

I find it hard to beieve the Inuit diet consisted of (approx. it looks like) 5% fruits and vegetables.Unless that 5% was 'sea vegetables' and a few berries in the summer. Even that is a stretch. Do you have a source for this chart?
[/ QUOTE]
From this biased critical article How to Really Eat Like a Hunter-Gatherer: Why the Paleo Diet Is Half-Baked [Interactive & Infographic]

 

[Chad]

I find it hard to beieve the Inuit diet consisted of (approx. it looks like) 5% fruits and vegetables.Unless that 5% was 'sea vegetables' and a few berries in the summer. Even that is a stretch. Do you have a source for this chart?

I don't know about the percentages, and i would guess it varies depending on the time of the year and from region to region, but according to Wiki:

Inuit cuisine - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Food sources

• Hunted meats:
  • Sea mammals such as walrus, seal, and whale. Whale meat generally comes from the narwhal, beluga whale and the bowhead whale. The latter is able to feed an entire community for nearly a year from its meat, blubber, and skin. Inuit hunters most often hunt juvenile whales which, compared to adults, are safer to hunt and have tastier skin. Ringed seal and bearded seal are the most important aspect of an Inuit diet and is often the largest part of an Inuit hunter's diet.[3]
  • Land mammals such as caribou, polar bear, and muskox
  • Birds and their eggs
  • Saltwater and freshwater fish including sculpin, Arctic cod, Arctic char, capelin and lake trout.
• While it is not possible to cultivate native plants for food in the Arctic, Inuit have traditionally gathered those that are naturally available,[3][4][5][6][7][8][9] including:
  • Berries including crowberry and cloudberry
  • Herbaceous plants such as grasses and fireweed
  • Tubers and stems including mousefood, roots of various tundra plants which are cached by voles in burrows.
  • Roots such as tuberous spring beauty and sweet vetch
  • Seaweed

In my general reading it appears to me that peoples living in extreme conditions make efforts to add some variety to their diet (when possible) - going to what we may consider extremes - as well as their already staple diet of eating head to tail.

For example, the Yupik will apparently eat the stomach contents of Caribou - i'm pretty sure they're not the only ones that do this either:

Yup'ik cuisine - Wikipedia
Yup'ik cuisine
Caribou
Yup'ik cuisine (Yupiit neqait in Yup'ik language, literally "Yup'iks' foods" or "Yup'iks' fishes") refers to the Eskimo style traditional subsistence food and cuisine of the Yup'ik people from the western and southwestern Alaska.
[...]
The stomach contents such as sedges and other greens, were eaten. Virtually all of the edible parts of the animal was utilized.

Two other things i came across that may be of interest:

The skin and blubber of a whale is consumed by the Inuit, it's called Muktuk, and this is apparently high in vitamin c:

This Inuit Dish of Whale Skin and Blubber Is Rooted in Respect

Muktuk is part of a long tradition of using the whole animal for food and tools.

www.atlasobscura.com

Muktuk is one such dish that uses cuts of meat that are unconventional to the modern palate, but help utilize the whole animal. A deeply traditional Inuit food, muktuk consists of the skin and blubber of a whale, usually a bowhead, beluga, or narwhal, depending on the indigenous community. It’s best served raw in tiny cubes, but it can also be deep-fried, pickled, or stewed.

Muktuk is a rich source of vitamin C, critical in the North where diseases such as scurvy remain a threat.

Finally, in reading some of the Wiki footnotes there was this interesting point about eating raw meat:

Tigullaraq, Elijah (May 2008). "Why eat raw meat?" (PDF). Nunavut Municipal Training Organization. Retrieved 2014-05-19. A person may sweat as the food gets processed in the stomach even when it’s extremely cold outdoors after eating raw meat. A person may find it difficult to sleep when he has eaten raw meat before bed-time. Inuit try not to eat raw meat before bed-time, because you will sweat a great deal when the food starts to get processed in the stomach. A hangover is nothing compared to "sweats" in the middle of the night, all night, from eating raw meat. Inuit are known to have warm hands when you shake hands with them. That’s from eating raw meat or mammal meat from the sea.

So it would seem that even for the Inuit who are used to eating meat in a variety of ways, their bodies still find digesting raw meat taxing?

Anyway, just thought the above things were interesting.

 

[AzarHyun]

pathetic

 

[aragorn]

I have been listening to a two hour interview by Dr Mercola with Dr Saladino, and I am impressed with Dr Saladinos perspective and knowledge.

Btw, Saladino's book that I mentioned previously just came out, and I've just started reading it. It appears interesting and comprehensive.

Link/Paperback

Link/Kindle

 

[Seppo Ilmarinen]

pathetic

Those people in Peta are lacking essential nutrients in their diets and can't think clearly: they just misunderstood a "hint" from the Universe how one should be equipped to battle such viruses!

Anyway, I've had problems with dandruff and dry skin for several months, and after watching this video that EONutrition (thanks Elliot for making it!) had recently released, I noticed it matched almost exactly my own situation (which I've mainly treated with shea butter). And also realized I haven't eaten organ meats for the same period. Dandruff and dry skin in my face started to clear out in few days after introducing liver again!

Funny how sometimes the answer to a problem is so simple and obvious!

 

[SMM]

For the past month I have not eaten carnivore due to stress from lack of sleep and changes in routine. That was after 11 months of carnivore.

My diet went by the wayside, carbaggedon-style. The biggest impact of not being carnivore and eating more of a standard Western diet in fact have been mentally and emotionally: lack of focus and concentration, migranes returned, increased dissociation and detachment from the body, change in concept of time, and carb cravings. It's had me feeling disconnected, shocked and isolated over the last month that after 11 months of carnivore and being in a better state than I can remember ever being in terms of health all of my life (not perfect, but vast improvement), things seemed to be going downhill.

March 11th was my carnivessary. I'd started carnivore twice before for up to 11 days; that's the hardest day for me. The first time I started was November 27th 2018.

Adding this here as it may be useful going forward.

Since mid-February, when diet (and life, because what good are you when you're constantly thinking about food) became really hard to manage, getting on social media or online was difficult partly due to frame of mind and partly due to time (I have one job now as of this week, not two, so that has freed up some time).

The idea of going through adaptation on such a busy schedule with no real immediate support around me (I could explain to my family, friends and colleagues here about diet transition - half whom may not understand, the other who may not care) was literally overwhelmingly. The plan was and is to go back to keto-carnivore as soon as possible. I knew the notice period at work would be up this week so it made sense. When I initially started carnivore, I had one iob only and was off 5 out of 7 days in the week. A month ago, I have no days off in the week, and I get anxiety from leaving the house and returning to the house. Nothing unbearable, but adaptation on top of that is something else. It's harder.

Late last year, I had chronic diarrhoea which was new on carnivore and caused concern as a colleague had gastroenteritis around the same tine. I later realised I was eating less organ meat and more ground beef. It tied in with the vitamin C and probiotic information in this video by EONutrition (thanks Elliott!):
[Media]

Since stopping carnivore the diarrhoea has gone, so monitoring this as I restart.

I am aiming for 44 days keto-carnivore starting tomorrow until April 26th. I'd like to post here with updates. I think it'll help me stick it out past 44 days to share the progress on here. Mainly eating fat bombs made with tallow, salt and sometimes glycine and red meat (a steak a day), or organ meat. I'll continue to supplement minerals and have been considering getting or making organ supplements.

The 11th day of carnivore is usually the worse for me. That'll be March 25th. It might not be the case this time after 11 months carnivore. I've marked it on my calendar (FOTCM calendar - a really handy way of having everything in sight) and made some notes. We'll see how it goes I suppose!

Glad to be mentally in a better place now than a month ago! Here's to change! Best

 

[mrtn]

My diet is 95% beef and a carnivore diet is short of some nutrients. I never worried about calcium because even after I dropped cheese and butter I still had quite some milk with coffee. But since some months I don't use milk in my coffee anymore (which is great, it healed acne and improved brain function) and now I realized how low in calcium my diet is. Yesterday I dug out an older calcium supplement and today I ate egg shell (I did that years ago but without giving it much thought). I tried to calculate how much calcium there is per eggshell:

google: weight of an eggshell:
    An average-sized egg weighs approximately 57 grams (about 2 ounces). Of this weight, the shell constitutes 11 percent; the white, 58 percent; and the yolk, 31 percent.
    --> egg shell: (57g / 100) * 11% = 6.27g
Use of chicken eggshell to improve dietary calcium intake in rural sub‐Saharan Africa
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6221107/
        Chicken eggshell has high calcium content (380 mg of calcium/gram) and bioavailability comparable to calcium carbonate (~39%)
--> 380mg * 6.27 = 2382mg calcium per egg shell (the 39% availability would result in 928mg)

So i got 2382mg calcium per egg shell. The recommendations for calcium I read were between 600 and 1000mg per day, but I don't know if that already accounts for partial absorption and bioavailability.
I also had the impression that asians often have problems with teeth position. Could this be linked to calcium deficiency? Asians have low lactose tolerance and consequently low dairy consumption (and maybe low bone density and increasing hip fractures as I just read).
I have little, but some, 'problem' with teeth positions, but rather I was just always curious what could cause it, since it seems to vary and change over time. Usually I thought that sugar/carbs/grains would cause it but those are not part of my diet anymore for the most part. I also blamed coffee (acids) and smoking. Once I had an extended fasting period and my teeth began to align very well after/during this time, so I still think its related to diet. Anyway, now I thought calcium intake may influence this as well? Does anybody care about calcium intake?