The Carnivore Diet

[jhonny]

Does anybody care about calcium intake?

Sure. I also was a bit worried about my calcium intake, cause I'm dairy intolerant. What I have been doing is, following some recommendations from Chrismasterjohn, Kris Kresser and Paul Saladino, including whole sardins in my diet, and a supplement: Bone Meal. Also, bear in mind that a propper balance calcium-magnesium is very important.

Another thing to have in mind when speaking of bone/theeth health is vitamin K2 and vitamin D. They play a crucial role in this equation.

 

[mrtn]

Thanks for the tip with sardines, will try those as well.

 

[anartist]

My diet is 95% beef and a carnivore diet is short of some nutrients. I never worried about calcium because even after I dropped cheese and butter I still had quite some milk with coffee. But since some months I don't use milk in my coffee anymore (which is great, it healed acne and improved brain function) and now I realized how low in calcium my diet is. Yesterday I dug out an older calcium supplement and today I ate egg shell (I did that years ago but without giving it much thought). I tried to calculate how much calcium there is per eggshell:

google: weight of an eggshell:
    An average-sized egg weighs approximately 57 grams (about 2 ounces). Of this weight, the shell constitutes 11 percent; the white, 58 percent; and the yolk, 31 percent.
    --> egg shell: (57g / 100) * 11% = 6.27g
Use of chicken eggshell to improve dietary calcium intake in rural sub‐Saharan Africa
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6221107/
        Chicken eggshell has high calcium content (380 mg of calcium/gram) and bioavailability comparable to calcium carbonate (~39%)
--> 380mg * 6.27 = 2382mg calcium per egg shell (the 39% availability would result in 928mg)

So i got 2382mg calcium per egg shell. The recommendations for calcium I read were between 600 and 1000mg per day, but I don't know if that already accounts for partial absorption and bioavailability.
I also had the impression that asians often have problems with teeth position. Could this be linked to calcium deficiency? Asians have low lactose tolerance and consequently low dairy consumption (and maybe low bone density and increasing hip fractures as I just read).
I have little, but some, 'problem' with teeth positions, but rather I was just always curious what could cause it, since it seems to vary and change over time. Usually I thought that sugar/carbs/grains would cause it but those are not part of my diet anymore for the most part. I also blamed coffee (acids) and smoking. Once I had an extended fasting period and my teeth began to align very well after/during this time, so I still think its related to diet. Anyway, now I thought calcium intake may influence this as well? Does anybody care about calcium intake?

I sort of figure bone broths would deal with the calcium intake, although I have not looked at nutritional charts to see, figuring that it would all depend on how you make the bone broth. Myself I put some apple cider vinegar in my pressure cooker when making a bone broth, thinking this would leach out bone minerals.

 

[Lukasz]

The recommendations for calcium I read were between 600 and 1000mg per day, but I don't know if that already accounts for partial absorption and bioavailability.

Some time ago I read Death by Calcium by Thomas E. Levy

In this book, he disputes the long-standing beliefs that osteoporosis is caused by a deficiency of calcium and that arteriosclerosis is caused by high levels of cholesterol. Both conditions, he claims, are in fact caused by high levels of calcium.

He says that when the bones are fully formed, the body's need for calcium is limited to the amount of loss in sweat and urine, and an additional 30% compensation because only 70% of calcium is absorbed from digested food.

Dr. Levy argues that calcium is stored in tissues throughout your life, therefore people who consumed it in excess for some period of their lives (and according to him, it is true for almost everyone) should rather worry about how to excrete excess calcium, not about the deficiencies.

He says that the focus of current studies turns to the risks of calcium supplementation, which include kidney stones, digestive problems, cardiovascular-related death in men, stroke risk, calcification found in cancerous tumors, and much more.

He describes how excess calcium from supplements and dairy foods accumulates in cells, tissues, and organs, a phenomenon called - ectopic calcification. The real problem, he says, is not a lack of calcium in the diet, but rather a relocation of calcium from the bones to other areas of the body where it does not belong.

You are 30 percent more likely to have a heart attack and up to 20 percent more likely to have a stroke if you take an extra 500 mg of calcium per day

According to Dr. Levy, the average calcium requirement by age is (for men and women):

Age​	Bone growth (av./day)​	Excretion (av./day)​	Sum (av./day)​	Total demand* (av./day)​
15 - 35​	~80mg​	~170mg​	~250mg​	300-400mg​
36 - 80​	0mg​	~170mg​	~170mg​	200-300mg​

* additional 30% compensation because only 70% of calcium is absorbed from digested food


Calcium content in fish (per 100g):

• sardines - 325mg
• salmon - 181mg
• cuttlefish - 180mg
• pike, walleye - 110mg
• octopus - 106mg
• lobster - 96mg
• shrimp - 91mg
• herring - 83mg
• trout - 75mg

Calcium content in beef (per 100g):

• variety meats and by-products, tripe, cooked, simmered - 81mg
• ground beef, 70% lean meat / 30% fat, crumbles, cooked, pan-browned - 41mg
• short loin, top loin, steak, separable lean only, trimmed to 1/8 fat, choice, raw - 29mg

Calcium content in pork (per 100g):

• feet, raw 70mg
• loin, sirloin (chops), bone-in, separable lean only, cooked, broiled - 65mg
• loin, country-style ribs, separable lean only, bone-in, cooked, broiled - 61mg
• shoulder, (Boston butt), blade (steaks), separable lean only, cooked, braised - 25mg
• ground pork, 72% lean / 28% fat, cooked, pan-broiled - 20mg

 

[Tyomodachi]

My diet is 95% beef and a carnivore diet is short of some nutrients. I never worried about calcium because even after I dropped cheese and butter I still had quite some milk with coffee. But since some months I don't use milk in my coffee anymore (which is great, it healed acne and improved brain function) and now I realized how low in calcium my diet is. Yesterday I dug out an older calcium supplement and today I ate egg shell (I did that years ago but without giving it much thought). I tried to calculate how much calcium there is per eggshell:

google: weight of an eggshell:
    An average-sized egg weighs approximately 57 grams (about 2 ounces). Of this weight, the shell constitutes 11 percent; the white, 58 percent; and the yolk, 31 percent.
    --> egg shell: (57g / 100) * 11% = 6.27g
Use of chicken eggshell to improve dietary calcium intake in rural sub‐Saharan Africa
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6221107/
        Chicken eggshell has high calcium content (380 mg of calcium/gram) and bioavailability comparable to calcium carbonate (~39%)
--> 380mg * 6.27 = 2382mg calcium per egg shell (the 39% availability would result in 928mg)

So i got 2382mg calcium per egg shell. The recommendations for calcium I read were between 600 and 1000mg per day, but I don't know if that already accounts for partial absorption and bioavailability.
I also had the impression that asians often have problems with teeth position. Could this be linked to calcium deficiency? Asians have low lactose tolerance and consequently low dairy consumption (and maybe low bone density and increasing hip fractures as I just read).
I have little, but some, 'problem' with teeth positions, but rather I was just always curious what could cause it, since it seems to vary and change over time. Usually I thought that sugar/carbs/grains would cause it but those are not part of my diet anymore for the most part. I also blamed coffee (acids) and smoking. Once I had an extended fasting period and my teeth began to align very well after/during this time, so I still think its related to diet. Anyway, now I thought calcium intake may influence this as well? Does anybody care about calcium intake?

Regarding the curvature of the teeth in Asians (the most striking example is the Japanese). As I believe, this is due to the fact that rice is the basis of their diet. Rice is soft food (and let's not forget that because of Buddhism in Japan there were several centuries of a ban on meat - solid food) (and all Japanese cuisine is very soft. Even soft meat, marbled beef were invented by them. As a result, insufficient load on the jaw and crooked teeth)), and for the formation of straight teeth you need to eat solid food from an early age. For example, hunter-gatherers do not have such a large-scale problem to put braces

 

[Tuatha de Danaan]

n fact, most people who fail to thrive on animal-based, keto, or low carb from what I have seen so far do so because they don't eat enough protein!Weight loss, muscle loss etc all tend to occur when protein intake goes below 1g/kg body weight.

That's the standard advice to avoid cachexia in fragile elderly populations: eat more protein and build up some muscle mass.

I have liver, bacon and sausage for breakfast. Chop with brocolli and cauliflour for tea but am still very underweight. Doing the Chu Ark workout makes me feel I've not got any muscle to work with as I am so bony.
Reading through the Carnivore Diet and highlighting Gaby's and Keyhole's comments above I wonder if I should introduce some oats, which I ate as porridge in childhood and loved. If I was to do that has anyone any recommendations as to what milk to use, I could use glycine to sweeten.

I've stopped taking supplements at the moment as I'm not sure if they are aiding weight gain. I do alternate Vit C, Bicarb of Soda and elderberries. What other protein could I introduce?. Anyone else experiencing this problem?

 

[Lukasz]

I have liver, bacon and sausage for breakfast. Chop with brocolli and cauliflour for tea but am still very underweight. Doing the Chu Ark workout makes me feel I've not got any muscle to work with as I am so bony.
Reading through the Carnivore Diet and highlighting Gaby's and Keyhole's comments above I wonder if I should introduce some oats, which I ate as porridge in childhood and loved. If I was to do that has anyone any recommendations as to what milk to use, I could use glycine to sweeten.

I've stopped taking supplements at the moment as I'm not sure if they are aiding weight gain. I do alternate Vit C, Bicarb of Soda and elderberries. What other protein could I introduce?. Anyone else experiencing this problem?

I also have a similar problem. It's hard for me to gain weight even if I eat a lot. I think that genes and healthy digestion also play a big role in body weight. Have you ever performed a genetic test to check your polymorphisms? It can be very helpful in determining what problems your body is facing and what supplements are worth trying.

For example, I have polymorphisms associated with methylation problems. When it comes to MTHFR, some things you should work on are among others gut repair and digestion. For a long time, I had some trouble with digestion, especially digesting fat. Eating has cost me more energy than it was giving me. So I reduced fat intake, took digestive enzymes, and the situation improved.

For me the MTHFR protocol was a game-changer and I think it greatly contributed to my muscle gain as well as many other things. Maybe you too have MTHFR mutations?

If you haven't done it yet, I would recommend checking this topic:

MTHFR mutations

Note: I've split this from the Endothelial Dysfunction thread since it seems to deserve its own. I want to give an update since I just had another cardio appointment yesterday and got my bloodwork results back. As it turns out, my cardiologist requested a series of genetic tests for both...

cassiopaea.org

I would like to quote here one excerpt from RedFox which was of great help to me some time ago and also I can relate to his experiences to a great extent.

(...)
I'm quite a skinny guy and have never been able to put much fat or muscle on (despite eating a lot). Generally eating a lot left me feeling drained and gave me head fog. This cleared up around week 4. I could eat as much as I wanted then without problems, but still wasn't gaining much weight. Muscle stamina was increased but still seemed to have a maximum I couldn't get past. Before that I exercise would leave me debilitated for a week or two, and I'd loose muscle mass.

The phosphaidylserine (which has a lot of research around healing neurological conditions such as alziemers and dementia. It can only be created in the body if it has enough B12 and folate, and is a buffer to stress/elevated cortisol) really changed things.
It did need me to take it for a week or so (with additional fish oil) before it started effecting my body.
Several distinct things happened, following heavy exercise for a period of a week I gain about 2kg of muscle and 2kg of fat! Eating extra protein now seems to cause me to gain muscle weight despite not always exercising, and eating additional carbs causes me to gain fat. I have never in my life been able to gain and keep weight like this!
In the last 3 weeks I've gone from 64kg to 70kg (which is the most I've weighed since starting to track my weight over 4 years).

Previous to this no amount of food and/or exercise would have this effect. The most I could gain in a week would be 1/2kg of muscle and fat combined, both of which would evaporate after 1-2days. A stressful event, eating too many carbs/protein, lack or sleep, heavy exercise or illness would cause me to loose about 3-6kg in a week (mostly in muscle weight).
(...)

Regarding oats, I would be careful and rule out any gut problems you may have before you try it. In my opinion potato starch and rice flour are a bit safer so whenever I need some more carbs, I prepare super easy, fast, and gluten-free pancakes. This is a great companion to meat and green leaves and just two of them, from time to time, are enough for me to not lose weight.

 

[Tuatha de Danaan]

Regarding oats, I would be careful and rule out any gut problems you may have before you try it.

Wow Lukasz, what a wealth of information. Thank you so much. Much to think about. On the mention of oats and maybe replacing them with potato starch and rich flour, I have just today received potato starch and am waiting for the rice flour. Never having used them before I ordered them when I saw Chu's Gluten free pizza crust with an option for making small loaves. I shall try this as an alternative to the oats as you suggest.

Have you ever performed a genetic test to check your polymorphisms?

Not had this test done and it seems the way to go. Out of curiosity what do you mix with the flour for the pancake? I'm off dairy milk.

 

[Ant22]

Reading through the Carnivore Diet and highlighting Gaby's and Keyhole's comments above I wonder if I should introduce some oats, which I ate as porridge in childhood and loved. If I was to do that has anyone any recommendations as to what milk to use, I could use glycine to sweeten.

Hey Tuatha de Danaan, as for porridge, I like it best with almond milk. It gives my porridge a smooth flavour and it tastes delicious with blueberries! Rice milk is nice too but it tastes a bit too sweet for me, I'd skip glycine with it. I never tried porridge with oat milk but I suspect it may taste too 'oaty'.

 

[Lukasz]

Out of curiosity what do you mix with the flour for the pancake? I'm off dairy milk.

Me too. I just use water and eggs. 1 - 2 eggs is enough for 8 pancakes. It depends what texture you prefer. And the pancakes really taste like 'real ones' this way (for clarification, I don't mean american style pancakes but the thin ones).

If you can't tolerate eggs, I think the water itself would be enough but the preparation may be more difficult. In such a case, you should mix everything really well, probably add also some baking soda, and change the proportions so to add less of the rice flour perhaps.

What a coincidence that you have just today received potato starch. Good luck with experimenting with it then

 

[Tuatha de Danaan]

Hey Tuatha de Danaan, as for porridge, I like it best with almond milk

Almond milk sounds good to me. I used to make my own almond milk a few years back but it always tasted a little bit watery for my liking. Blue berries with porridge will certainly be a leap of faith for me but would certainly be tastier than glycine. Thank you Ant22. You and Lukasz have given me wonderful suggestions and I am very grateful.

 

[Tuatha de Danaan]

What a coincidence that you have just today received potato starch. Good luck with experimenting with it then

Amazing how things turn up exactly when you need them. I have been unable to eat eggs recently and don't know why but I would like to try them again in pancakes and add a bit more to my diet. Can't wait for the rice flour to turn up and start experimenting.

 

[Goemon_]

Calcium:

It is my understanding that calcium from dairy can actually lead to osteoporosis. The explanation being that dairy contain a form of calcium not easily assimilated. And it can attract calcium from your bone, bind to it and then being excreted.

I personally did eat a lot of dairies for years. I had frail nails for a long time. When I started low carbs high fat, no dairy, no grains my nails greatly improved.

My carnivore diet:

I am now on a 100% carnivore diet for around three weeks. For now it seems to be the perfect diet for me.

On the very beginning of the year I went carnivorish. I was often eating sardines. That's one of the -ish part because it comes with olive oil. There was some gluten free beers, on and off, and there was a lot of coffee. And some occasional whisky.

I first tried to reduce the coffee intake. I find it hard to stick to a rule that says this particular thing (the coffee in that example) is allowed but only three cups a day. That works for some time and then my mind tend to go like, well, either it's allowed or it's not allowed, so it's slowly becomes allowed without limit.

So I ditch the coffee completely something like four month ago.

Then I had an occasional beer that went a bit less occasional. that's not exactly like coffee because I certainly don't want to get drunk but it is kind of the same process.

So I ditch the beer an whisky a few month ago.

The problem with sardines is actually kind of the same. I used it as an occasional third meal when I felt hungry in the late evening and then I tended to have almost always three meals a day.

So I ditch the sardine and I have stick to the two meals a day since then.
I had a couple of hunger in the evening at first but that went easily away by eating bigger meals.

So, for the last three weeks I have been eating beef with dried lard around 12 o'clock and around 6 PM. From time to time I add bone broth to the mix. Occasionaly I have some confit of duck. One day a week is reserve for ham with duck fat. And once in a while I roast some pork with added dried lard.

I had some pork liver before. I will probably add that back to the mix at some point.

 

[mrtn]

I think @Tuatha de Danaan is already aware of this, but I just want to mention that @Keyhole said somewhere in the thiamine thread that thiamine can help with problems to gain weight. It might have been this post/video among others.

 

[aragorn]

Almond milk sounds good to me. I used to make my own almond milk a few years back but it always tasted a little bit watery for my liking. Blue berries with porridge will certainly be a leap of faith for me but would certainly be tastier than glycine. Thank you Ant22. You and Lukasz have given me wonderful suggestions and I am very grateful.

Just a note, in case you haven’t heard about it, but almonds supposedly contain a lot of oxalates that at least in large amounts cause all kinds of havoc on the body.Kale is also high in oxalates, and broccoli and cauliflower are moderately high in my understanding. Keyhole has many excellent videos on this, I recommend checking those out.

I’m saying this because I was on a ketogenic diet for years (ca 6 years) and was disappointed in the results-I just couldn’t get the energy levels up, at least not the way ‘everyone’ was talking about. But that changed when I cut out all veggies and every oxalate source, eating just meat and fat ca 5 months ago, and increasing my protein intake considerably. It’s been a bumpy ride with all kinds of ‘oxalate dumping’ symptoms, but so many things, energy levels included, have improved so I’m not going back, at least for now.