The Carnivore Diet

aragorn

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
It seems to be the case for some people. I have taken a LOT of people OFF of the carnivore diet and many have felt better for it. On the other hand, I also put many people on the diet and they also feel better.

It is tricky to pinpoint whether it is suitable for you or not. I have come to the conclusion it is not for me, at least not all of the time 24/7 all year round anyway.

I used to be a fan of Nora, but now tend to disagree with a lot that she says. Her demonization of protein is silly IMO and makes a lot of people feel worse. She is also orange to look at, which makes me suspect she has excessive carotenoids deposited in her skin. She certainly does not look healthy in my eyes, anyway.
Yeah, I’m not too impressed with Nora these days either. I don’t have the same knowledge base as you, but since her first book ‘Primal body, primal mind’, which was mind blowing at the time, I feel that she hasn’t come up with anything exactly new. I remember being quite disappointed with her book on fatigue (can’t remember it’s name). She conducts quite aggressive marketing, with a lot of ‘fantastic stuff’ and ‘you don’t want to miss this’. Marketing is of course a necessity, but I somehow feel put off by her messages and wordings.
 

Tuatha de Danaan

Dagobah Resident
FOTCM Member
Not having the bother of going to work anymore but being active nonetheless, eating bacon, liver and sausage for breakfast and meat and veg for tea I do have days where I am ravenous at lunchtime but mostly I can glide through the day and not feel any pangs. I usually put this down to temperature outside.

One very strange thing that has happened was when I went off eggs for a few months to see if I had an allergy. I then bought some, brought them home and got the frying pan out. I cracked an egg and immediately felt very sick. The thought of eating one was totally repulsive and I've not been able to look at one since.

This was and is so strange to me as I grew up on a farm with fresh eggs every day, especially when I was poorly and had my egg and Soldiers. That was such a lovely treat. I love the thought of scrambled eggs as well but I just can't eat them anymore.
 

anartist

Jedi Master
FOTCM Member
I'm not convinced this is good for everyone, because we are already exposed to many toxins in our environment, so by exposing ourselves voluntarily to more toxins wouldn't be a good idea.
What I think regarding this matter of vegies is, we need to choose the less damaging ones like cruciferous vegetables, avocados, cabbages and others.
I'm currently doing a Carnivore-Keto(ish) diet with some veggies (evening meal) mencioned above, 2 days of just bone broth, and the rest of the days with liver, bacon, lean meat, and some eggyolks. As breakfast I just have a bulletproof coffee (Ghee and mct oil). I'm very ok with this.

My 2 cents.
Hi jhonny, I think I know what you are saying about toxins, as one who has been doing chelation therapies for a while now! However toxins found in vegetables are ones our bodies have adapted to, unlike mercury or EMF, and so seem to be used to provoke a hormetic(beneficial) response. I don't think they are necessary though, unlike those pushing 'whole food' 'plant-based' diets. In fact I would, and do, rather avoid them. To keep my body guessing and vigilant, I will occasionaly eats some vegtables, mostly cruciferous, some roots, etc.
 

jhonny

Dagobah Resident
FOTCM Member
However toxins found in vegetables are ones our bodies have adapted to, unlike mercury or EMF, and so seem to be used to provoke a hormetic(beneficial) response.
This is what I have been listening/reading from some practicioners in the functional and orthomoleculare medicine.
Specially from Chrismasterjohn, and altough he does a very good job explaining very clear all about the biochemistry in nutrition, he pushes very hard the consumption of great amounts of veggies, particularly spinach and kale. It seems he thinks if you don't have any condition related to kidney stones or digesting oxalates, it is ok eating them. But in my opinion he doesn't have in mind that you could develope such condition when you are constantly loading you body with such compounds. I may be wrong here, but this is my conclusion after listening to his podcasts and videos.
One the other side you have this guy Paul Saladino who says, don't eat veggies at all, and just eat nose-to-tail. In doing so (he says) you have all the nutrients you need without loading you body with those damaging compounds. He also is "against" supplements.
 

Stoneboss

Jedi Master
FOTCM Member
Thanks to Keyhole for the great video! Very helpful!



I was certainly one who was suffering from bile acid disorder when I went full carnivore and had no idea what that was until I watched the video. Recently, per the recommendation in the video, I started taking milk thistle and BOOM! Diarrhea cured practically overnight. I will also add that I have also been eating fermented kimchi with every meal as well which technically isn't full carnivore but seems to be working for me.

On a different note I was wondering if anybody has experienced 'emotional detox' while on this diet?

For better or worse historically I have been one who cries very rarely yet recently since I've gone almost full carnivore I've cried somewhat heavily twice in two weeks. First, while reading Missing 411 (east coast edition) and second watching Lord of the Rings. Now, both of these probably qualify as cry worthy affairs, Missing 411 for how disturbing the disappearances were and LOTR for how inspirational it is, but again I almost never cry! Yet, there I was balling my eyes out in what I felt was a healthy manner. Additionally, I also felt more emotionally centered and strong while at work and when socializing with friends. So for what it is worth going carnivore may have more benefits than just physical and intellectual health but emotional as well.
I had the same problem. But after reading your post about a week ago, I started taking milk thistle and diarrhea was cured practically overnight. Thanks for that info!
 

aragorn

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Paul Saladino, MD, who has researched the carnivore diet apparently extensively, is soon coming out with a book:


I'm not too familiar with him or his work, but Mikhaila Peterson sometimes shares links where he features. Here's one clip where he calmly tries to defend his position against the 'hyenas' on the TV show The Doctors:

 

jhonny

Dagobah Resident
FOTCM Member
I'm not too familiar with him or his work, but Mikhaila Peterson sometimes shares links where he features.
I have been listening to his podcasts. His arguments in favor of the Carnivore diet are very strong, supported with evidence based on research, and his own experience as physician.

On his webpage, he has released the table of contents of his book:
Table of contents:
Foreword by Mark Sisson
Introduction
Section 1: Where we’ve come from
1: Our Beginings
2: The worst mistake in human history
Section 2: Plants are not always our friends
3: Chemical warfare- types of plant toxins
4: Isothiocyanates: is broccoli a super hero or super villain?
5: Polyphenols: unicorns and fairy tales
6: Attack of the oxalates
7: Lectins: of kidney beans and Parkinson’s disease
Section 3: Debunking myths about animal foods
8: Myth 1- We need plants for complete nutrition
9: Myth 2: We need fiber for a healthy gut
10: Myth 3: Red meat causes cancer, and shortens our life
11: Myth 4: Red meat causes heart disease
Section 4: Returning to the ways of our ancestors
12: What to eat on a carnivore diet, AKA how to be radical
13: Common pitfalls and questions
14: The end of the road, the beginning of new adventures
Appendix:
FAQ, Recipes, Meal Plans, Bloodwork recommendations, Resources

Are you ready for it?! Drop a comment below on what you’re most excited about to learn from The Carnivore Code! Release date is February 25th 2020! Amazon page is here.
 

Keyhole

Ambassador
Ambassador
FOTCM Member
Paul Saladino, MD, who has researched the carnivore diet apparently extensively, is soon coming out with a book:


I'm not too familiar with him or his work, but Mikhaila Peterson sometimes shares links where he features. Here's one clip where he calmly tries to defend his position against the 'hyenas' on the TV show The Doctors:

Paul Saladino provides excellent arguments in favor of carnivore, and is a rich source of information. He seems slightly myopic with regard to dietary approach however. Some clients of his who have later come to me have said that he was very black-and-white with the carnivore diet, simply told one guy to "eat beef and drink water" when there were clearly multiple other things that could be done to help this guy (supplementation etc).

There is a lot of dogma in that whole community... particularly in regard to supplementation. It is sad because often times, the diet is a fantastic TOOL when used in conjunction with OTHER tools like supplementation, and some people see miraculous benefits.

I am giving a talk at the international carnivore conference this May in Colorado to discuss this very topic - how many people fail on diet alone, but with targeted nutrient therapy, make immense improvements!
 

Meechel17

Jedi
FOTCM Member
I started carnivore in early January - was eating cheese like there was no tomorrow in order to stave off the cravings for coconut, veggies, etc. Once I seemed to have those under control, I cut dairy and replaced that with just eating lots of fat and meat and eggs - enough to control any cravings. Yes, I was over-eating, but now I seem to be settling into a happy place - eating two meals a day, drinking lots of water, have cut out extra fats as I can burn a bit of extra body fat instead for now. The only thing I haven't cut out yet is my coffee with additive free coconut milk and a few drops of stevia. I am gradually cutting back with plans to eliminate that as well. Skin is starting to clear up, hormones are definitely balancing (yahoo). I am only supplementing with himalayan salt and RealSalt , magnesium and potassium. So far so good. I think this is going to work for me :) This is the first time in my life I haven't had terrible cravings for some sort of carbs or another... What a blessing!
 

aragorn

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Lately I’ve been reading and learning about oxalates, and wow, that’s some pretty nasty stuff! I’ve also watched one of your interviews, @Keyhole, on the subject (which was excellent) and it had many important points. One of the most important things you said, IMO, was how many individuals on the ketogenic diet fail, because they have a very high oxalate intake (almonds, greens, chocolate etc.). I think that’s why I never truly thrived on the keto diet, either. This is something that everyone on low carb or keto should be aware of, otherwise you might get seriously ill!

Knowing this, it’s even more astonishing how many ‘paleo/keto experts’ (like Gedgaudas) advocate eating vegetables and other substances with high oxalate content. It’s highly irresponsible!

The problem I wrote in my previous post is still there, I still sleep very little. But my hypothesis right now it’s because of the ‘oxalate dumping’ going on, which would also match with some on-and-off symptoms I’m having. I’m going to follow a strict carnivore diet a few more weeks and see if my sleep improves. Besides, for the most part I feel so darn good! I’m also taking magnesium and potassium citrate, other electrolytes and vitamin B’s to speed up the dumping process.
 

aragorn

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Nora Gedgaudas has recently (last November) published an article called 'My Beef With The Carnivore Diet'. It's quite long and contains at least on the surface a number of arguments against following a 100% carnivore diet. Basically, she says the same things as in her book PBPM, talking about the importance of not activating the mTOR pathway by eating too much protein, which might promote cancer, according to her. Also, although she recognizes the role of oxylates, she doesn't seem to take it as a serious problem (just: some people might be sensitive to it, and should reduce them a bit). She talks about the importance of diversity and fiber by adding some plants. She talks about how excess protein will turn into glucose, thus turning you into a 'carbovore' instead. She talks about how caloric (especially protein) restriction promotes longevity.

Here's the link: My Beef With The Carnivore Diet

I've read these points before, and to be fair, she could be onto something. There are of course scientific studies backing up her claims. At this point I'm not sure what to think, and frankly don't have the time and expertise to dig deeply into the details. What do you guys, @Keyhole and other experts think about this stuff? If I and others feel great on a carnivore diet, are we – if we listen to Nora – taking a huge risk, and possibly setting us up with cancer?

One thing that struck me with that article, was how the evolutionary aspect is always offered as proof. Considering the flaws of the whole Darwinian evolutionary theory, I would rather think that instead of finding out what evolution has led us to 'thrive on'
we should figure out what humans were designed to eat.
When you look at this from a design perspective, it might very well be that our diet is designed to be way more simpler that we think – that the whole argument of 'dietary diversity' is bogus.
 

aragorn

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
I just want to add, that what I said of not having the time to explore the topic was selfish...of course I’ll find the time and do the necessary work to find answers, that’s what life is all about! :)
 

Yas

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
I'm definitely not an expert on the subject, but I tend to think that even though the carnivore diet is a very good tool for many people, including myself, it isn't a diet for everyone to follow over a long period of time. Just like we've come to realize with the ketogenic diet and many other health experiments here, there's no "one size fits all" approach to diet and health, although some general guidelines will apply to most people, for sure (I'm thinking about a gluten-free, dairy-free, and generally low-carb, high-fat diet, also avoiding toxins in processed foods as much as possible, for example).

Some people may thrive on a pure carnivore diet for long periods of time, but some other may indeed need some vegetables on their diet, while keeping on the low-carb side of things. Many, many, many doctors recommend some vegetables to "feed the probiotics" in our guts, and although I'm one that is certainly very sensitive to most vegetables, they seem to have very good arguments for it as well. The evolutionary argument is not that simple though, because for me, it would be easier to believe that our ancestors diet wasn't very "varied", but rather simple, because there wasn't such availability of varied products as today. Yet, this would also depend on the region. For example, tropical regions would have more variety of plant-based food, fruits, and so on, while colder regions may have adapted to less of those and higher amounts of meat and fat. Here, it makes sense that we are also different depending on our genetic background and maybe other factors, and this could manifest as more or less tolerance to veggies, carbs, certain foods, etc.

So I think that it may be good to try the carnivore diet as a way of "resetting" the body and lowering the inflammation, as an elimination diet of sorts. But then, after some time, it may be good to add some vegetables and see how we feel with them. Well, that's MHO...
 

Artem Yalovyi

The Force is Strong With This One
Probably the post is not in the topic, but while studying the nutrition of hunter-gatherers, I came across this schedule and I was interested in something, namely the roots.
After reading about the edible roots, I found in them one common thing is inulin
Inulin is a pretty strong prebiotic that can nourish the intestinal microbiome a little more efficiently than regular fiber, and many hunter-gatherer nations from Native Americans to Ainu consume roots
I’ll just suggest to those who may have problems on the carnivore diet, for example, drink chicory (2-6 teaspoons a day) if you don’t want your microbiome to starve so you can feed the bacteria and still keep 0 carb for the drink will be almost free of carbohydrates
paleo-diet-half-baked_3.jpg
 

Turgon

Ambassador
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FOTCM Member
I just finished reading Gedgaudus' article and it was really interesting. Although I’m not sure how ‘dangerous’ excess protein is compared to carbs and whether activating the mTor pathway through excess protein is comparable to carbs/sugar. I noticed that eating a lot of protein in one sitting never produced the same issue of an insulin spike or side effects the way carbs do. The carnivore diet has been a good reset and whenever I go off the rails it works really well to stabilize things afterwards but isn’t something I would stay on long term. I lose weight quickly and the amount of meat needed to supplement that weight loss is very expensive. So she is right that a certain amount of cruciferous veggies can act as a necessary adjunct and keep the weight on if your a skinny type.

During the Phil Escott interview with Objective: Health, he said he only ate one meal a day until satiety so that is probably a good way for him to keep the mTor pathway somewhat down regulated through a fasting period even though he probably eats a lot more protein in that one meal than what Gedgaudus recommends to stay below the mTor threshold, which I think is around 3oz or 25grams per meal.

Although I also think you can only tolerate so much fat to make up for protein and carb restriction and would being in a constant state of caloric restriction over an extended period of time be just as extreme in the way Gedgaudus believes only eating meat is?

I guess it really depends on what the persons health issues are and what they want to accomplish with the dietary changes they are making.
 
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