The H & W Show: The medical and social implications of gender multiplicity

[Oxajil]

I'm not sure I'm understanding your post here, Oxajil, but it sounds like you're suggesting it's better for gender reassignment to be done in children because of procedural reasons. I would have to disagree with you there.

As we said in the show, a child is really and truly incapable of making such a momentous decision that will affect them for the rest of their lives. A child really has no concept of the future, of possible consequences or of the extraneous factors that may be affecting their decision. To leave this kind of decision to a prepubescent child is completely irresponsible, IMO. Considering how many changes all children go through between childhood, adolescence and adulthood, how could one be sure that a child's feelings wouldn't change entirely during that time? I believe elective surgeries and hormonal manipulation should be illegal in children. It is reckless and irresponsible.

If you're referring to cases of hermaphrodism, where the transition is used as a corrective measure, than I think that's different.

For the life of me I cannot imagine that a child, or even teen for the matter, would have the mental capacity to make that decision for themselves. They cannot consent for even the most minor of surgeries or medical procedures let alone a lifetime or hormonal treatments and radical surgery -- the long term effects of which have not even been determined. As this article put it, it is medical malpractice. What adults choose to do with their own bodies, even if the feelings behind the decision are just as changeable, is their own business. Radically changing your entire life based on a decision made in your childhood is unconscionable to me.

That was a shocking article to read, I didn't know that many had committed suicide after such treatment.

I know that the brain isn't fully developed until at least mid 20s, and especially the frontal parts that are necessary for decision making processes. The reason I said the above is that this is what I was taught by specialists who have treated transgenders for many years; young and old. I mistakenly thought that it must be true when they said that based on their results the younger they start with the hormonal treatment etc. the better their quality of life will be. They said that if they go through a hormonal treatment and/or surgical operation at a young age, they can save a lot of years of depression and suffering that they can experience once they develop 'secondary sex characteristics'. On the other hand, what if they go through that operation (or the hormonal treatment) and find out at a later point they actually had confusing feelings and were happy the way they were before. That would be awful, and not worth taking the chance, especially considering the article you mentioned.

I looked into some studies on this. Some bits from a study entitled 'Young Adult Psychological Outcome After Puberty Suppression and Gender Reassignment' published in October 2014:

A protocol designed by Cohen-Kettenis and Delemarre-van de Waal14 (sometimes referred to as “the Dutch model”)4,7 considers adolescents, after a comprehensive psychological evaluation with many sessions over a longer period of time, eligible for puberty suppression, cross-sex hormones (CSH), and gender reassignment surgery (GRS) at the respective ages of 12, 16, and 18 years when there is a history of gender dysphoria (GD); no psychosocial problems interfering with assessment or treatment, for example, treatment might be postponed because of continuous moving from 1 institution to another or repeated psychiatric crises; adequate family or other support; and good comprehension of the impact of medical interventions.12 Puberty suppression is only started after the adolescent actually enters the first stages of puberty (Tanner stages 2–3), because although in most prepubertal children GD will desist, onset of puberty serves as a critical diagnostic stage, because the likelihood that GD will persist into adulthood is much higher in adolescence than in the case of childhood GD.15,16

This suggests that the later they start, the better it would be.

Despite the apparent usefulness of puberty suppression, there is only limited evidence available about the effectiveness of this approach. In the first cohort of adolescents who received GnRHa, we demonstrated an improvement in several domains of psychological functioning after, on average, 2 years of puberty suppression while GD remained unchanged.16 The current study is a longer-term evaluation of the same cohort, on average, 6 years after their initial presentation at the gender identity clinic. This time, we were not only interested in psychological functioning and GD, but added as important outcome measures objective and subjective well-being (often referred to as “quality of life”), that is, the individuals’ social life circumstances and their perceptions of satisfaction with life and happiness.17–19 After all, treatment cannot be considered a success if GD resolves without young adults reporting they are healthy, content with their lives, and in a position to make a good start with their adult professional and personal lives.20 Because various studies show that transgender youth may present with psychosocial problems,21,22 a clinical approach that includes both medical (puberty suppression) and mental health support (regular sessions, treatment when necessary, see Cohen-Kettenis et al12) aims to improve long-term well-being in all respects.

In the present longitudinal study, 3 primary research questions are addressed. Do gender dysphoric youth improve over time with medical intervention consisting of GnRHa, CSH, and GRS? After gender reassignment, how satisfied are young adults with their treatment and how do they evaluate their objective and subjective well-being? Finally, do young people who report relatively greater gains in psychological functioning also report a higher subjective well-being after gender reassignment?

Their results (though mostly applicable for transwomen):

Results of this first long-term evaluation of puberty suppression among transgender adolescents after CSH treatment and GRS indicate that not only was GD resolved, but well-being was in many respects comparable to peers.

The effectiveness of CSH and GRS for the treatment of GD in adolescents is in line with findings in adult transsexuals.35,36 Whereas some studies show that poor surgical results are a determinant of postoperative psychopathology and of dissatisfaction and regret,37,38 all young adults in this study were generally satisfied with their physical appearance and none regretted treatment. Puberty suppression had caused their bodies to not (further) develop contrary to their experienced gender.

Psychological functioning improved steadily over time, resulting in rates of clinical problems that are indistinguishable from general population samples (eg, percent in the clinical range dropped from 30% to 7% on the YSR/ASR30) and quality of life, satisfaction with life, and subjective happiness comparable to same-age peers.17,19,34 Apparently the clinical protocol of a multidisciplinary team with mental health professionals, physicians, and surgeons gave these formerly gender dysphoric youth the opportunity to develop into well-functioning young adults. These individuals, of whom an even higher percentage than the general population were pursuing higher education, seem different from the transgender youth in community samples with high rates of mental health disorders, suicidality and self-harming behavior, and poor access to health services.21,22,39,40

In this study, young adults who experienced relatively greater improvements in psychological functioning were more likely to also report higher levels of subjective postsurgical well-being. This finding suggests value to the protocol that involves monitoring the adolescents’ functioning, physically and psychologically, over many years, and providing more support whenever necessary.

This clinic-referred sample perceived the Environmental subdomain (with items like “access to health and social care” and “physical safety and security”) of the WHOQOL-BREF as even better than the Dutch standardization sample.17 Whereas in some other contexts transgender youth may experience gender-related abuse and victimization,22,41,42 the positive results may also be attributable to supportive parents, open-minded peers, and the social and financial support (treatment is covered by health insurance) that gender dysphoric individuals can receive in the Netherlands.

Both genders benefitted from the clinical approach, although transwomen showed more improvement in body image satisfaction (secondary sex characteristics) and in psychological functioning (anger and anxiety). None of the transmen in this study had yet had a phalloplasty because of waiting lists or a desire for improved surgery techniques. This finding warrants further study of the specific concerns of young transmen.

Despite promising findings, there were various limitations. First, the study sample was small and came from only 1 clinic. Second, this study did not focus on physical side effects of treatment. Publications on physical parameters of the same cohort of adolescents are submitted or in preparation. A concurring finding exists in the 22-year follow-up of the well-functioning first case now at age 35 years who has no clinical signs of a negative impact of earlier puberty suppression on brain development, metabolic and endocrine parameters, or bone mineral density.43 Third, despite the absence of pretreatment differences on measured indicators, a selection bias could exist between adolescents of the original cohort that participated in this study compared with nonparticipants.

Age criteria for puberty suppression and CSH are under debate, although they worked well for adolescents in the current study. Especially in natal females, puberty will often start before the age of 12 years. Despite the fact that developing evidence suggests that cognitive and affective cross-gender identification, social role transition, and age at assessment are related to persistence of childhood GD into adolescence, predicting individual persistence at a young age will always remain difficult.44 The age criterion of 16 years for the start of CSH may be problematic especially for transwomen, as growth in height continues as long as cross-sex steroids are not provided (causing the growth plates to close). Therefore, psychological maturity and the capacity to give full informed consent may surface as the required criteria for puberty suppression and CSH45 in cases that meet other eligibility criteria.

So while these particular patients did benefit from the treatment, it is of course not entirely clear how the situation will be at a later point in time, as in this study they checked with the patients just one year after the surgery.

In another study ('Early Medical Treatment of Children and Adolescents With Gender Dysphoria: An Empirical Ethical Study') it was noted:

Although an increasing number of gender clinics have adopted this Dutch strategy and international guidelines exist in which puberty suppression is mentioned as a treatment option [8] and [9], many professionals working with gender dysphoric youth remain critical [10] and [11]. Concerns have been raised about the risk of making the wrong treatment decisions and the potential adverse effects on health and on psychological and psychosexual functioning. Proponents of puberty suppression, on the other hand, emphasize the beneficial effects of puberty suppression on the adolescents' mental health, quality of life, and of having a physical appearance that makes it possible to live unobtrusively in the desired gender role [12].

The [12] reference is to this study: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21587245

I'm starting to see that it is primarily the Dutch who seem to be the main proponents of this treatment for children.

Considering all the above as well as your comments, I should've been more careful with what I said, it is a really big decision that shouldn't be made lightly, especially not at a young age. I'll have a look at the articles and references you provided Odyssey, I think the questions you asked are worth looking into.

 

[Gaby]

I'm starting to see that it is primarily the Dutch who seem to be the main proponents of this treatment for children.

Not only the Dutch though. As we discussed on the show, it seems that the entire field of transgender psychology is highly ponerized. As the article said, they pretty much encourage "the change" without exploring childhood trauma or other possible causes, i.e. spirit attachments. The later would be too much to ask for mainstream psychology, but from the various articles that we read for this show one can see that there is something seriously wrong.

There are exceptions here and there, but for the most part, there seems to be a transgender agenda that has been prioritized in school programs and even in education programs for toddlers.

 

[mkrnhr]

Here is a short summary about the problem of Gender Dysphoria: _https://www.acpeds.org/the-college-speaks/position-statements/gender-ideology-harms-children

this awareness develops over time and, like all developmental processes, may be derailed by a child’s subjective perceptions, relationships, and adverse experiences from infancy forward. People who identify as “feeling like the opposite sex” or “somewhere in between” do not comprise a third sex. They remain biological men or biological women.

A person’s belief that he or she is something they are not is, at best, a sign of confused thinking. When an otherwise healthy biological boy believes he is a girl, or an otherwise healthy biological girl believes she is a boy, an objective psychological problem exists that lies in the mind not the body, and it should be treated as such.

Puberty is not a disease and puberty-blocking hormones can be dangerous. Reversible or not, puberty- blocking hormones induce a state of disease – the absence of puberty – and inhibit growth and fertility in a previously biologically healthy child.

Rates of suicide are twenty times greater among adults who use cross-sex hormones and undergo sex reassignment surgery, even in Sweden which is among the most LGBTQ – affirming countries.11 What compassionate and reasonable person would condemn young children to this fate knowing that after puberty as many as 88% of girls and 98% of boys will eventually accept reality and achieve a state of mental and physical health?

This, in turn, virtually ensures that they will “choose” a lifetime of carcinogenic and otherwise toxic cross-sex hormones, and likely consider unnecessary surgical mutilation of their healthy body parts as young adults.

 

[mcb]

...Considering all the above as well as your comments, I should've been more careful with what I said, it is a really big decision that shouldn't be made lightly, especially not at a young age. I'll have a look at the articles and references you provided Odyssey, I think the questions you asked are worth looking into.

There is no simple way to make sense of these issues. Suicide rates, for example, are high in the trans community. Period. Hormones or no hormones. Procedures or no procedures. Want good, reliable data, though? Good luck.

I have been part of the trans community, and I continue to do outreach work there, although not a lot; very little compared with those that do it full time. I can see the sorry state in which many transpeople find themselves. I used to characterize the social events I attended, back when I was more involved (10+ years ago), as "woe, woe, woe," because I would go and listen and always hear the tales of woe.

Surgery is a potential treatment -- a workaround -- for gender dysphoria. It worked for me. The long term effects are reasonably well understood. The main risk that I am aware of is with the quality of work -- many transsexuals seeking surgery cannot afford (or think they can't afford) to find a well-qualified surgeon, and they go with someone that isn't. Quite a few of them end up spending the money anyway when the surgery must then be redone. Or they aren't able to have it redone.

Surgery is not, obviously, a solution for life's problems. There are an awful lot of transpeople that seem to think it is, pre-op, anyway. When it doesn't meet their expectations (wishful thinking), suicide is a distinct possible result. Transition, including surgery, will more likely complicate one's life in general. Absence of gender dysphoria is not absence of problems.

Hormone treatments are another matter. All of my research suggests that these are very dangerous substances, that can affect a person's health for years or for life. I took estradiol myself at low dose for several years, until I nearly died from a pulmonary embolism. I also had cancer while taking it. Looking, back it doesn't seem to have been such a great idea, and the medical providers I worked with were ABSOLUTELY clueless, dangerously so.

I am deeply concerned about the idea of administering hormone blockers to children, so that they can delay puberty until they are of age and can decide for themselves. It's an interesting idea in theory, but it may represent medical insanity in practice. I had an abnormal puberty myself, and I am not a healthy person. I think those issues are part of the reason.

I do from time to time encounter other transpeople that I knew 10 or more years ago. That is encouraging, because it tells me they didn't all commit suicide. There's some data for you. My greatest concern is for those who were sexually active in the gay bar scene, and those that were determined to "pass" and lead a "normal life in society."

The problem within the latter group is that they could be heading out of the frying pan and into the fire, merging in with a whole mess of other depressed, material-oriented people with no idea where they are going, and yet always having to hide their past, more so than the others. The most important change that I made, of everything I did, was to refuse to hide any longer.

As for medical ponerization, it's alive and well with treatment of both gender issues and autism. Nothing surprising there, not to me, anyway.

 

[mcb]

Here is a short summary about the problem of Gender Dysphoria: _https://www.acpeds.org/the-college-speaks/position-statements/gender-ideology-harms-children

You can't really, meaningfully, talk about "the" problem of Gender Dysphoria. There are as many different variations as there are people that experience it. I do see some good points in the summary, that would apply to some people.

My own situation is that my endocrine system was broken from birth, if not before, and I did not develop as a proper male or female. I assume the two are connected; I don't have positive proof. And part of what I had removed was cancerous, not healthy. Some transpeople are in that situation; most are probably not.

I could try to break things down further, but I don't really have time right now and I don't exactly see the point. It seems to me like many people don't have any idea what to do with themselves or their lives, and that this leads to an unimaginable variety of problems of all descriptions. I can see the historical trends that led to the present situation, and I have some notion of what the underlying causes might be. I think the task of understanding it - the big picture - is something that we each need to take on, personally, in a big way.

 

[Voyageur]

I'm starting to see that it is primarily the Dutch who seem to be the main proponents of this treatment for children.

Not only the Dutch though. As we discussed on the show, it seems that the entire field of transgender psychology is highly ponerized. As the article said, they pretty much encourage "the change" without exploring childhood trauma or other possible causes, i.e. spirit attachments. The later would be too much to ask for mainstream psychology, but from the various articles that we read for this show one can see that there is something seriously wrong.

There are exceptions here and there, but for the most part, there seems to be a transgender agenda that has been prioritized in school programs and even in education programs for toddlers.

Yeah, and the mind is subject to information flow as a receiver, and the information flow is changing on many levels commensurate with, as was discussed above by Woodsman, the biological changes from our manipulated food sources along with spiked chemical and environmental toxins. A weakened body/mind may well indeed be a magnet for attachments, and as you say, that is a hard one to look at in our psychological society. On a societal programing level, a continuous message of 'everything goes' helps people dealing with confusion around these issues to fixate on a cure for their feelings without exploring options.

In yesterdays show 'The Health & Wellness Show: Connecting the Dots: Smart drugs in a dumb world', was reminded of a slightly different condition with children, with the same medical reaction. This was on ADHD drugs (Adderall, I think) which was compared as similar to crystal methamphetamine. So the answer was to give children, to get them when they are young, to start taking these drugs that may last for the next twenty or more years. When did diet ever come into a physicians consciousness, or the parents - and the schools system seems to help direct problem children to seek drug induced help. So like that perceived problem, and with some exceptions, children are started on a course of hormones because of a perceived feeling of gender confusion, and this leaves a lot of unchecked causation's.

...Considering all the above as well as your comments, I should've been more careful with what I said, it is a really big decision that shouldn't be made lightly, especially not at a young age. I'll have a look at the articles and references you provided Odyssey, I think the questions you asked are worth looking into.

There is no simple way to make sense of these issues. Suicide rates, for example, are high in the trans community. Period. Hormones or no hormones. Procedures or no procedures. Want good, reliable data, though? Good luck.

I have been part of the trans community, and I continue to do outreach work there, although not a lot; very little compared with those that do it full time. I can see the sorry state in which many transpeople find themselves. I used to characterize the social events I attended, back when I was more involved (10+ years ago), as "woe, woe, woe," because I would go and listen and always hear the tales of woe.

Surgery is a potential treatment -- a workaround -- for gender dysphoria. It worked for me. The long term effects are reasonably well understood. The main risk that I am aware of is with the quality of work -- many transsexuals seeking surgery cannot afford (or think they can't afford) to find a well-qualified surgeon, and they go with someone that isn't. Quite a few of them end up spending the money anyway when the surgery must then be redone. Or they aren't able to have it redone.

Surgery is not, obviously, a solution for life's problems. There are an awful lot of transpeople that seem to think it is, pre-op, anyway. When it doesn't meet their expectations (wishful thinking), suicide is a distinct possible result. Transition, including surgery, will more likely complicate one's life in general. Absence of gender dysphoria is not absence of problems.

Hormone treatments are another matter. All of my research suggests that these are very dangerous substances, that can affect a person's health for years or for life. I took estradiol myself at low dose for several years, until I nearly died from a pulmonary embolism. I also had cancer while taking it. Looking, back it doesn't seem to have been such a great idea, and the medical providers I worked with were ABSOLUTELY clueless, dangerously so.

I am deeply concerned about the idea of administering hormone blockers to children, so that they can delay puberty until they are of age and can decide for themselves. It's an interesting idea in theory, but it may represent medical insanity in practice. I had an abnormal puberty myself, and I am not a healthy person. I think those issues are part of the reason.

I do from time to time encounter other transpeople that I knew 10 or more years ago. That is encouraging, because it tells me they didn't all commit suicide. There's some data for you. My greatest concern is for those who were sexually active in the gay bar scene, and those that were determined to "pass" and lead a "normal life in society."

The problem within the latter group is that they could be heading out of the frying pan and into the fire, merging in with a whole mess of other depressed, material-oriented people with no idea where they are going, and yet always having to hide their past, more so than the others. The most important change that I made, of everything I did, was to refuse to hide any longer.

As for medical ponerization, it's alive and well with treatment of both gender issues and autism. Nothing surprising there, not to me, anyway.

Your post came in after what I wrote, yet you are said the same thing when it came to medical ponerization. I was sorry to here you had cancer while undergoing this therapy, that's a pretty scary aside.

 

[Oxajil]

Hormone treatments are another matter. All of my research suggests that these are very dangerous substances, that can affect a person's health for years or for life. I took estradiol myself at low dose for several years, until I nearly died from a pulmonary embolism. I also had cancer while taking it. Looking, back it doesn't seem to have been such a great idea, and the medical providers I worked with were ABSOLUTELY clueless, dangerously so.

I am deeply concerned about the idea of administering hormone blockers to children, so that they can delay puberty until they are of age and can decide for themselves. It's an interesting idea in theory, but it may represent medical insanity in practice. I had an abnormal puberty myself, and I am not a healthy person. I think those issues are part of the reason.

I'm so sorry you had to go through all of that, MB. It boggles my mind, I don't know why I thought that there is a health department actually devoted to help these children in the best way possible! It all certainly is an eye-opener for me.

The most important change that I made, of everything I did, was to refuse to hide any longer.

I'm glad you did.

 

[mkrnhr]

You can't really, meaningfully, talk about "the" problem of Gender Dysphoria. There are as many different variations as there are people that experience it. I do see some good points in the summary, that would apply to some people.

My own situation is that my endocrine system was broken from birth, if not before, and I did not develop as a proper male or female. I assume the two are connected; I don't have positive proof. And part of what I had removed was cancerous, not healthy. Some transpeople are in that situation; most are probably not.

I'm not a medical doctor but what you describe is indeed a medical problem related to physiology, not a psychological dysphoria as described above. It has been mentioned in the thread that some physiological conditions require intervention. However, extending those kind of interventions to cases of "identity crisis" where simple growth of personality or therapy would help can be a dangerous generalization.

 

[bjorb]

[quote author= MB]There is no simple way to make sense of these issues. Suicide rates, for example, are high in the trans community. Period. Hormones or no hormones. Procedures or no procedures. Want good, reliable data, though? Good luck.[/quote]

I should have been more considerate with some of my sentences.

You can't talk about this without addressing that first and foremost, there is a lot of suffering going on.

I can't even fathom to feel how painful all of this can be.


[quote author= Oxajil][quote author= MB]The most important change that I made, of everything I did, was to refuse to hide any longer.[/quote]

I'm glad you did. [/quote]

Yes, same here !!

 

[mcb]

...
I'm not a medical doctor but what you describe is indeed a medical problem related to physiology, not a psychological dysphoria as described above. It has been mentioned in the thread that some physiological conditions require intervention. However, extending those kind of interventions to cases of "identity crisis" where simple growth of personality or therapy would help can be a dangerous generalization.

I shake my head in disbelief at what I see happening, but I realize that these people are making choices without having a proper context for doing so. It is an expansion of something that was happening when I transitioned (2004 - 2007), and had been going on for decades, but that I never dreamed would expand this way.

I contradicted myself, slightly, in saying that the main risk with surgery was poor-quality work. The main risk, as I went on to hint at, is that people will think that surgery -- and hormones -- are going to solve their problems. The more immature and irresponsible someone is going in, the worse the situation can be afterward. Gatekeepers are supposed to look for this and intervene. Sometimes they are successful.

There is a trend now away from surgery, which could be a positive development in some respects. It might favor those that have no idea what they are doing and will eventually change their minds. If they proceed with hormones, though, they may end up with unexpected -- and unidentified -- consequences for years to come, if not for life.

Most transpeople taking hormones do not die of pulmonary embolism; that much I know. But they are messing with their basic life subsystems in unpredictable ways, and the gatekeepers and providers don't appear to understand that or what it implies. It's an incredible contrast to me that in the alternative health field the dangers of manipulating hormones this way are well understood, and that women's health providers recognize this too, although maybe not quite as well, but where transsexuals are involved it's "have all you want."

When I do direct trans outreach work, which is not often, I try to understand where the person is at and work from there. I don't try to explain all this to them. I look for things to say that might have a chance of making a difference; not too much at one time. Every kind of direct outreach I do is like that, and I guess that's why I don't do much direct outreach. When the opportunity arises, I try to get through to others that are leaders in the particular community.

None of what I see in the trans community surprises me greatly. I have seen enough of how this world works to have an idea of where it comes from -- to see the larger issues. I am not discouraged, at least not entirely or always. I think there is a way through this. I don't exactly know where or what it is, but I keep doing what I can find to do.

 

[adam7117]

I just wanted to say a few words about this edition of the H&W show and a couple of comments in the thread.

Having come across it yesterday, I spent the time to carefully listen to the recording and did it again this morning. Unfortunately, the show has left me somewhat confused and disappointed - the initial listen caused a strong emotional reaction (outrage) which somewhat calmed down on the second go.

I am certainly not impressed by Beau's comments in this thread and expect a higher standard of reasoning from a senior member of the group. It is good to see that he decided to soften his blows somewhat.

The cause of my initial strong reaction was due to the format and language used during the show. As you acknowledged in the beginning, this is a very sensitive topic for many people and their families. You'd think that this would necessitate a clinical approach supported by evidence and research. Instead, I heard frequent use of loaded words like "crazy", "ponerized" and "brainwashed". I also could not process the reasons for frequent giggling and somewhat derisive language - this left me confused. It seemed more like "tranny bashing" under the banner of SOTT.net

I began to wonder whether I accidentally downloaded a Fox News podcast.

The manner in which you put your points across - some agreeable - detracted from the substance. This topic necessitates a clinical approach supported by facts which is where I hoped Gaby could step in. I thought that was lacking on this occasion - it was speculation at best. In fact, the panel did state several times that they just did not know, that there were no hard numbers available, etc. Nevertheless, it did not stop them from speculating on the prevalence of the issue, the impact on the health and well-being of the people struggling with gender identity etc.

Quite frankly, it all came across a bit jockey to me, lacking in substance and aiming at hystericisation instead of enhancing understanding.

In terms of "political correctness" - I would like to remind everyone that this group consists of many LGBT members and their families. We even have input - in this very thread - from a person with direct experience in transgender issues. You are not expected to protect "sacred cows" but you are expected to act in an "externally considerate" manner - externally considerate to the members of your group and others who may be listening.

Since you carry a SOTT.net banner, the hope is to have a high standard of intelligent discourse supported by facts. Not necessarily a personal opinion or speculation - especially on such sensitive topics. It would be ideal if we could remain united in our understanding and not divided based on prejudice.

Also, please bear in mind that the argument of "political correctness is out of control" is being used globally by the far-right fascist groups who are eager to use language as an inflammatory weapon. To incite violence, to cause harm to the marginalised members of our society, etc - it appears to be on the increase. I did not expect to hear this argument on your show at all.

It may be a good idea to start publishing your sources in the future so that the listeners can do their own work and make up their own minds. This is lacking at the moment and I can't easily go back to have a read at what had formed your opinions. Also, it is OK to have a good time doing the show but giggling at the word "penis" is just demonstrating lack of maturity. I actually thought that Zoya's piece was good - as well as Erica's bit on two-spirited shamans.

I did miss stories from people who actually underwent gender reassignment surgery - it would have explained some of the uncertainty expressed on the panel regarding the process, the counselling requirements and the legal challenges along the way. It's not just about the chop.

No surprise that, apparently, there was little online chatter during the show. Perhaps your audience was left wondering what was going on?

Also, have you seen, "Louis Theroux: Transgender Kids", yet? If not, do make an effort to source it as it is very well done and may improve the group's understanding of the issues at hand.

OK, I'm getting off the soapbox now. My 2 cents.

 

[bjorb]

Hi Adam,

Bit to late now but I would certainly rephrased some of my comment differently since they can come across rather incentive. Sorry for that, It was meant against the corrupt elements of 'gender theory'


[quote author= adam7117]Also, please bear in mind that the argument of "political correctness is out of control" is being used globally by the far-right fascist groups who are eager to use language as an inflammatory weapon. To incite violence, to cause harm to the marginalised members of our society, etc - it appears to be on the increase. I did not expect to hear this argument on your show at all.[/quote]

I think that's a good argument, but political correctness is out of control. It's only that the far-right hijacks this for their own diabolical agenda and perverts the truth about why this is happening.

And the truth about political correctness I think is to convince the public of treatments that are in fact not treatments at all, but programming meant to inflict further suffering.

Since the MSM is pushing this, we should be rather careful I think. The media isn't on our side after all. Life-styles the MSM or society in general is most often selling aren't designed to make us happy. But rather are meant to cause suffering.


[quote author= adam7117]In terms of "political correctness" - I would like to remind everyone that this group consists of many LGBT members and their families.[/quote]

It was about the corrupt elements within the LGBT movement. Not the LGBT movement itself. Many rightful movements have corrupt elements.


[quote author= adam7117]Also, have you seen, "Louis Theroux: Transgender Kids", yet? If not, do make an effort to source it as it is very well done and may improve the group's understanding of the issues at hand.[/quote]

I have, it was aired on State Dutch TV. From what I remember it follows families and kids even as young as 3 year being convinced that they are born in the wrong body. The parents believe the kids and their therapists who are so called specialist on the issue tell them that 'gender theory' is the solution.

Than they follow the lives of other young transgender all being happy with their body-chance and what their struggles are. I think the docu wasn't very objective, simply because it didn't showed people who did regret their sex-chance. And there are plenty out there.

So it did promote 'gender theory' But this only works for a few. Not for the majority who think that 'sex chance' is the solution. Besides,The MSM media gave the docu excellent reviews. For me that is another red flag.


- From what I understand, pushing 'sex chance' on very young children is wrong.

 

[Gaby]

I think that's a good argument, but political correctness is out of control. It's only that the far-right hijacks this for their own diabolical agenda and perverts the truth about why this is happening.

And the truth about political correctness I think is to convince the public of treatments that are in fact not treatments at all, but programming meant to inflict further suffering.

Since the MSM is pushing this, we should be rather careful I think.

I think that I speak for all the co-hosts when I say that this was a difficult subject, one that reveals several layers of societal pathology and where children are vulnerable. It was important to not censor our truthifying arguments.

I was personally deeply shocked to realize how bad the situation was when I prepared for this show. We did use emergency humor and we also spoke plainly and seriously about some of the arguments. I shared my notes about my clinical experience with transgenders due to congenital issues involving the endocrine pathways, pseudohermaphroditism and hermaphroditism. As we pointed out in the show, these cases are few across the board. We also spoke about xenoestrogens. What we are seeing is something that goes beyond that and this is what was covered in the show.

The quality of the show may have not been to the best standards of the listeners. Nevertheless, we said things that needed to be said. People need to be aware about this subject, as sensitive as it might be.

The following articles provide more information about this subject:

https://www.sott.net/article/329328-Transgender-couple-gives-birth
https://www.sott.net/article/328191-WTF-Australian-4-y-o-beginning-transgender-transition
https://www.sott.net/article/318710-Bizarro-world-Think-Progress-editor-argues-that-males-can-menstruate-and-get-pregnant
https://www.sott.net/article/243617-Are-Boys-Turning-in-to-Girls-Because-of-Man-Made-Chemicals
https://www.sott.net/article/241500-UK-Sex-Change-British-Man-Gives-Birth-to-Son
https://www.sott.net/article/153318-Pregnant-man-stuns-medical-profession
https://www.sott.net/article/328908-Feelings-change-but-the-body-doesnt-A-sobering-look-into-transgenderism-and-medical-malpractice
https://www.sott.net/article/241960-UK-Five-year-old-boy-opts-to-become-a-girl
https://www.sott.net/article/326080-Feminist-Camille-Paglia-Transgender-mania-is-a-symptom-of-Wests-cultural-collapse
https://www.sott.net/article/310485-Political-correctness-gone-wild-You-can-now-be-fined-250000-dollars-if-you-offend-a-transgender-woman-in-New-York-City
https://www.sott.net/article/295117-Subjected-to-constant-bullying-16-year-old-transgender-teenager-commits-suicide
https://www.sott.net/article/254407-American-Psychiatric-Association-to-stop-classifying-transgender-people-as-having-a-mental-illness
https://www.sott.net/article/265462-Transgender-Harlem-woman-dies-days-after-being-assaulted-in-hate-crime-attack
https://www.sott.net/article/326146-Albuquerque-New-Mexico-Teachers-told-not-to-use-the-terms-boys-and-girls
https://www.sott.net/article/326842-Federal-judge-ruled-Transgender-cant-force-lifestyle-on-employer
https://www.sott.net/article/318626-Policing-of-speech-NYC-to-fine-businesses-for-not-using-the-correct-gender-pronoun
https://www.sott.net/article/327248-Ridiculous-Whats-your-preferred-pronoun-Gender-non-conformist-students-adopt-new-badge-of-courage
https://www.sott.net/article/325799-Princeton-U-HR-department-Do-not-use-the-word-man
https://www.sott.net/article/322884-Political-correctness-gone-wrong-Schools-in-Australia-ban-use-of-mum-or-dad-teachers-told-to-refer-to-pupils-using-gender-neutral-language
https://www.sott.net/article/326146-Albuquerque-New-Mexico-Teachers-told-not-to-use-the-terms-boys-and-girls
https://www.sott.net/article/279645-Mummy-why-is-Daddy-wearing-a-dress-Daddy-why-does-Mummy-have-a-moustache
https://www.sott.net/article/279037-Eradicating-beauty-The-destruction-of-art
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3590067/Children-young-seven-taught-transgender-experiences-primary-school-education-program.html
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/parents-threaten-remove-children-primary-7567192
http://www.thetransgendercenter.com/index.php/femaletomale1.html
https://www.genderspectrum.org/
https://www.sott.net/article/329902-Global-war-against-marriage-and-family-Pope-Francis-denounces-gender-theory
https://www.sott.net/article/241890-Gendered-Grammar-Linked-to-Global-Sexism

 

[bjorb]

[quote author= adam7117]The cause of my initial strong reaction was due to the format and language used during the show. As you acknowledged in the beginning, this is a very sensitive topic for many people and their families. You'd think that this would necessitate a clinical approach supported by evidence and research. Instead, I heard frequent use of loaded words like "crazy", "ponerized" and "brainwashed". I also could not process the reasons for frequent giggling and somewhat derisive language - this left me confused. It seemed more like "tranny bashing" under the banner of SOTT.net[/quote]

I felt dishonest for not answering this since I think this affected you the most?, I hope the things I will mention are reasonable, or makes sense in general.


People usually laugh about things outside of their normal experience. That doesn't mean that they mock others. They just find it bizarre that they have to laugh.

Laughter according to Gurdjieff happens because of a 'Yes' and 'No' conflict. So it's kind of natural for people to laugh when it is bizarre for them. They look at something and they think, ''who is this for real'' And than they realize it is. And they laugh. That is in short the science of it.

It's not always considerate, that is certainly true. And in truth the things that they find funny doesn't has to be bizarre. For some this lifestyle others find funny is in fact perfectly right for them.

But for others, this lifestyle wouldn't fit. So in a way, others will always find things funny about each other, it can't be helped. But that doesn't mean that they don't respect their lifestyles.

Ofcourse being external considerate and not laugh when it makes others uncomfortable is important.


There was some jiggling during the podcast. But I don't believe the intent was meant to mock others.

Also, they where emphasizing how many are suffering because of it. To me the podcast had an overall very serious feel to it.


BTW,

I fall in the autistic spectrum and some of my behavior isn't normal.

When I tell people that I used to check the locks 30 times before going to bed, people laugh. For them it's silly. They probably would find a lot of things I do silly and by that funny. I can't say that I really care, some times it can get to me. But if people can't laugh at the things they find silly means they have to be serious 100% of the time. And being 100% serious is toxic for our Being.

So I have set a difference, when people laugh it's about the intent that matters.

- If they use it to mock others they can go to hell.

- If they laugh just because it's silly to what they are familiar with I don't see a reason to get all upset about it.


I have to admit that I found some of the several genders mentioned funny. That's because it's just so outside of what feels normal for me. But that doesn't mean that it is abnormal for them or that I disrespect their lifestyle, not at all.

 

[Beau]

I just wanted to say a few words about this edition of the H&W show and a couple of comments in the thread.

Having come across it yesterday, I spent the time to carefully listen to the recording and did it again this morning. Unfortunately, the show has left me somewhat confused and disappointed - the initial listen caused a strong emotional reaction (outrage) which somewhat calmed down on the second go.

I am certainly not impressed by Beau's comments in this thread and expect a higher standard of reasoning from a senior member of the group. It is good to see that he decided to soften his blows somewhat.

I think you're confusing me with someone else. I wasn't on the radio show, nor have I posted in this thread until now.