Hi Gandash & everyone,
I’ve been distracted by other aspects of life (such as preparing for the next GFC) so apologies for not being here sooner.
Anyway, Shijing is correct in that my evidence is not mainstream & the other evidence i promised hasn’t been assembled yet due to other higher but less enjoyable priorities. But below is some brief written evidence:
“
Byzantine documents concerning the Hungarian prince Termatzu from Árpád's lineage assert that the oldest name of the Hungarians was Sabartoi Asphali, recalling their ancient Mesopotamian name Subar-tu and Sabir-ki, while Asphali was the Arab name of the Lower Zab river.1
Scythia, which early Hungarians called Hetmagyar ("Seven Magyars", of whom we speak furtherly) is recorded in the ancient legends of Persia, the Zend Avesta, under the name of "Haetumat", and located in Sakastan (Scythia).
One of the most valuable documents regarding their early history is the "Church History" by Zachariah the Rhetor, written in Assyrian language (Syriac Aramaic) in the sixth century c.e., and describes the Caucasus as the "Huns' lands", listing thirteen peoples: Abdel, Alan, Avar, Avgar, Bagrasir, Bulgar, Dirmar, Hephtalit, Khazar, Kulas, Kutargar, Sabir and Sirurgur.”
Source: http://www.imninalu.net/myths-Huns.htm
1. If correct then from this we can assume that the Magyars were not Sumerians but rather neighbours, which therefore suggests many possible reasons for language similarities.... & the theories by Mario Alinei suggest Magyar (Sabirs) lived close to Sumarians.
Anyway, irrespective of what I say or suspect all I want is for professionals to take the possibility of the antiquity of Magyar seriously & do the appropriate research to determine the truth. Not rely on books that relied on books that relied on books from a politically motivated past. And in the process to be more holistic in their approach ie use different fields such as archaeology, rather than just relying on conventional linguistics alone. I don’t have the qualifications to argue with experts so all I can do is try to find evidence from semi or non-mainstream experts that believe the connection exists & present it to western experts to review. And maybe show that if I can understand some old words from other languages & show that its meaning/s r similar in Magyar then that can be a ‘heads-up’ for mainstream experts to review as well. Other than becoming qualified myself there isn’t much else I can or should do. My opinion, even if correct, cannot be officially proven by me.
My other concern is that since IMO no science is 100% understood or proven (except maths) that scientists therefore need to think outside the square rather than dismissing anything not satisfying existing rules of just 1 field which may in itself be wrong or partially inadequate. That is where the widely read & trained professionals of centuries past had an advantage over today's specialists. In the past a person may speak 50 languages, live in & learn many cultures, study several sciences, etc. Few people r like that today & so may not see links via just 1 field.
As a business analyst with qualifications & experience in IT, Commerce, nature/environment, law, economics, engineering, marketing, psychology, etc, I can view a problem from a broader perspective & see how systems r interconnected whereas specialists will have a rudimentary idea at best of other systems. The specialist however will be more advanced in their 1 field & can implement my solution in a technically superior manner than I can. Both roles r needed to arrive at the BEST outcome.
A generalist ‘finds’ the way while the specialist ‘implements’ the way.
The Tatárlaka written tablets pre-date Sumerian & Egyptian but can be partially interpreted with Hungarian Runic script. But that is also disputed by some.
I saw a you-tube of a group of Russian scientists that found 14,000 year old Hungarian Runic script in AXUM & LALIBELA Ethiopia. My understanding is that u cant carbon date carvings in stone (the Time Team from the UK would agree) so there r several possible reasons for inscribed runes to be younger than the 14,000 yrs old walls. Such as a Magyar merchant visited 1000 + yrs ago, or a delegation, etc etc. But if proven it would create absolute havoc for conventional historical knowledge.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=nqYB9yqWxnI
My complete lack of linguistic knowledge forces me to rely on common sense methods like sound + spelling + meaning correspondence.
I collect ancient coins, & some r written in a manner simple to pronounce in Magyar, but also meaningful in Magyar. Though I would expect experts to claim coincidence as usual. ;) For eg:
KINGS OF Parthia.
• Orodes Orod = Mill; os = old or parent, etc depending on situation; es = and
• Phraates ("Frater" = “animal" I guess the double aa is a long a, which is how its pronounced in Magyar, like “Park”.)
• Phraatakes Animal + (teker = slew)+ (es=and) (e in Magyar is pronounced like an ‘a’ in English)
• Artabanus (arta = hurtful & ban = noble)
• Pacorus “Pacor” is a Magyar surname
• Volagases bottom (bum)
Susa mint: Some of these coins were minted in Susa, which is also a female Magyar name.
Mario Alinei states that the Etruscan and Magyar & ancient Greek languages are very closely related therefore 1 possibility is that the kings names were greek &/or latin inspired hence can be pronounced easily in Magyar as well as having possible similar meanings... I’m not making any claims of a direct connection, but possibly some indirect connections.
Non-Magyar speakers cannot detect meaning nuances & therefore need Magyar experts to point out a ‘possible’ connection. Simple definitions of Magyar words are inadequate, like trying to teach a pacific islander 500 yrs ago what ice is - words & pictures describing ice will only go so far... And Magyar words can have many meanings & emotions based on situation as the list below illustrates somewhat. English is virtually devoid of this, so English-only speakers cant grasp this concept well unless taught the language AND culture by a Magyar.
ártáblázat tariff
ártalmas adverse
ártalmas deleterious
ártalmas destructive
ártalmas deteriorative
ártalmas harmful
ártalmas hurtful
ártalmas injurious
ártalmas insalubrious
ártalmas maleficent
ártalmas malign
ártalmas miasmal
ártalmas miasmatic
ártalmas mischievous
ártalmas noxious
ártalmas pernicious
ártalmas pestilent
ártalmas pestilential
ártalmas poisonous
ártalmas unwholesome
ártalmasság destructiveness
ártalmasság hurtfulness
ártalmasság insalubrity
ártalmatlan harmless
ártalmatlan innocuous
ártalmatlan inoffensive
ártalmatlan unhurting
ártalmatlan white
ártalmatlanít make harmless
ártalmatlanul inoffensively
ártalom harm
ártalom hurtfulness
ártalom maleficence
ártány barrow
ártartomány range of prices
ártatlan artless
ártatlan blameless
ártatlan guiltless
ártatlan harmless
ártatlan ingenuous
ártatlan innocent
ártatlan sinless
ártatlan white
ártatlanság artlessness
ártatlanság innocence
ártatlanság naivety
ártatlanság naiveté
ártatlanul ingenuously
ártatlanul wrongly
-ban in
-ban inboard
-ban inside
-ban under
banális banal
banális commonplace
banális quotidian
banális stale
banális trite
banalitás banality
banalitás triteness
banalitás triviality
banán banana
banándugó pin
banánfürt hand of bananas
bánásmód deal
bánásmód dealing
bánásmód treatment
bánat chagrin
bánat discomfort
bánat distress
bánat grief
bánat heartache
bánat pits
bánat rue
bánat sore
bánat sorrow
bánat tribulation
bánat woe
bánatos dreary
bánatos pained
bánatos rueful
bánatos sorrowful
bánatos trist
bánatos tristful
bánatos woebegone
bánatos woeful
bánatos yellow
bánatosan ruefully
bánatosan sadly
bánatosan woefully
bánatosság dump
bánatosság dumps
bánatosság ruefulness
bánatosság tristfulness
õs- palaeo-
õs- primal
õs- prime
õs ancestor
õs forbear
õs forebear
õs forefather
õs old man
õs original
õs parent
õs primaeval
õs pristine
õs progenitor
õs sire
Below shows how languages & cultures can intermix....
http://www.pr.com/press-release/37575
Tribe of Hungarian Origin Discovered in Africa
Anthropologists of the Geneva-based Africa Research Institute (ARI) discovered an unknown tribe in the Mid-African Democratic Republic of Congo. The tribe presumably originates from the Magyarabs living at the border of Egypt and Sudan since the 16th century.
Geneva, Switzerland, May 03, 2007 --(PR.com)-- The Africa Research Institute (ARI) in Geneva has been pursuing anthropological research since May 2005 in the north-western regions of the civil war stricken Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC). The expedition led by Gabor Varga anthropologist discovered a tribe of possible Hungarian origin last May near a tiny village called Halitu. "The village is situated approximately 100 kilometres from Aba in the north-western region of the country. The tribe had lived in a completely secluded area and rarely moved out of the well protected village," said Dr. Varga.
The ARI researchers scrutinized the tribe's language, customs and culture for nine months and gained full cooperation of the tribe's elderly. The tribe at present has 573 members who call themselves "Madjari". According to the tribe's legend, their ancestors broke away from the "big family" of Madjarabs.
The Madjarab (meaning: Tribe of the Magyars) are a people living along the Nile River in Egypt and Sudan. They are of Hungarian ancestry, dating back to the late 16th century. According to the legend, Hungarian soldiers serving in the Ottoman army were fighting in southern Egypt. Some of them stayed and intermarried with the local Nubian women. Their leader, Ibrahim el-Magyar is highly respected amongst the Madjarabs even today.
Further research proved that the Madjari tribe in the DRC has actually preserved a lot more of its Hungarian culture and traditions than their relatives living in Egypt and the Sudan. People in the Madjari tribe still use words that have Hungarian sounding. Their ritual music recalls the original Hungarian themes and patterns. The ARI will publish its research findings following approval by the Board of Directors of the institute. The document will warn the public that the survival of this small group has been endangered by continuous tribal wars and the nearby oil exploration that completely devastates the environment today.
Below is a debate at another site.
“No, but there is a tiresome "word list matching." The truth is that given several large and complex languages of 60,000 words or so and given that the human mouth can only make a limited number of signs, you can "relate" ANY language to any other language as long as it has a sufficient number of words. You can probably relate Klingon to native tribal languages in India if you look hard enough.
Linguists look, instead, for root words, sentence structure, and other things. Word lists are considered "lame" by non-alternative sources. So the relationship of Hungarian to Finnish is a good link. The relationship of ancient Egyptian to Coptic is a good link.
The relationship of Sumerian to Hungarian is not, and the scripts, I'm afraid, aren't even very similar.”
I agree word matching alone is weak evidence but that doesn’t prove word matching can’t be a good starting point. And what r the odds of many words being unrelated despite spelling, sounding & meaning the same thing, irrespective of the qty of words in a language? As low as winning lottery. To me, if the meaning is the same then that is proof of some sort of connection. Next step would then be to assemble other sciences, archaeology, etc & if they also find connections then to me that is far more powerful proof than 1 science alone can ever match with the oft claimed ‘coincidence’ or ‘unknown’ or 'borrowed' excuses.
Anyway, I know my proposals r full of official holes but that is of little importance. My role is to draw attention to the issue by the west to make sure some things aren’t left behind or ignored accidentally.
All the best
Rob :D
