The Mecca Mystery: Probing the Black Hole at the Heart of Muslim History by Peter Townsend

Joe

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I'd say they were on the same team and working for the same people who want to dismantle Western Culture and the foundation on which it stood for so many centuries. That is my impression from observing all the moves visible to us on the Grand Chess Board.
And we hypothesize that it is all ultimately directed from 'higher up' with most people involved 'down here' pawns to one extent or another. But in that case, and assuming (as we do) the nature of the beings that are doing the directing, how can everything under their control in this world (most things except those who choose and work to 'opt out') NOT be designed to turn to cause the maximum chaos and suffering possible, and, MOST PREFERENTIALLY for them, to have good-natured people willingly (through deceptive means) lend their 'good intentions' to the furtherance of their evil plans?

Like I said, everything (almost) without exception, MUST be questioned, especially those narratives to which we find ourselves emotionally attracted.
 
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seek10

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Anyway, it was a question that made me question the truth or validity of the bible. For many Hindus the caste system has probably not made reincarnation such a fair concept. Even the concept of reincarnation has been abused and misused to the extent we all have to question our programming no matter what religion we are born into so to speak it would seem.
Reincarantion seems to be common all across the world before Christianity and Islam.
The word "reincarnation" derives from Latin, literally meaning, "entering the flesh again". The Greek equivalent metempsychosis (μετεμψύχωσις) derives from meta (change) and empsykhoun (to put a soul into), a term attributed to Pythagoras. An alternate term is transmigration implying migration from one life (body) to another. Reincarnation refers to the belief that an aspect of every human being (or all living beings in some cultures) continues to exist after death, this aspect may be the soul or mind or consciousness or something transcendent which is reborn in an interconnected cycle of existence; the transmigration belief varies by culture, and is envisioned to be in the form of a newly born human being, or animal, or plant, or spirit, or as a being in some other non-human realm of existence.
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The Greek Pre-Socratics discussed reincarnation, and the Celtic Druids are also reported to have taught a doctrine of reincarnation.
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Judiasm

The belief in reincarnation had first existed amongst Jewish mystics in the Ancient World, among whom differing explanations were given of the after-life, although with a universal belief in an immortal soul. Today, reincarnation is an esoteric belief within many streams of modern Judaism. Kabbalah (Jewish mysticism), teaches a belief in gilgul, transmigration of souls, and hence the belief in reincarnation is universal in Hasidic Judaism, which regards the Kabbalah as sacred and authoritative, and is also held as an esoteric belief within Modern Orthodox Judaism.
Since Greeks influenced present western world through Roman lines, I guess Christianity and Islam removed reincarnation for some reason.

For Hindu's, reincarnation is given. What 'Hindu' means has no clear definition. Some definitions are "religion", "way of life", " philosophy" , "life originated from Hindu land like - Budhism, Jainism"etc. Most common being is religion that worship of pantheon of gods.

Thus no matter how paganesque Hinduism might appear, it is not pagan in the sense attributed to the word by Abrahamic religions. As a well-known scholar of Hinduism, who was also a missionary in India for a while, Klaus K. Klostermaier observes: “Many Hindu homes are lavishly decorated with color prints of a great many Hindu gods and goddesses, often joined by the gods and goddesses of other religions and the pictures of contemporary heroes. Thus side by side with Śiva and Viṣṇu and Devī one can see Jesus and Zoroaster, Gautama Buddha and Jīna Mahāvīra, Mahātmā Gandhi and Jawaharlal Nehru, and many others. But if questioned about the many gods even the illiterate villager will answer: bhagvān ek hai — the Lord is One. He may not be able to figure out in theological terms how the many gods and the one God hang together and he may not be sure about the hierarchy obtaining among the many manifestations, but he does know that ultimately there is only One and that the many somehow merge into the One.”
It is a sort of "Open source religion". one man called LK Advani tried to politicize( A gamble nobody else in the history did in such a large scale) and get mileage out of "Hindu religion" and this what he has to say .
They believed the BJP still needed to be centrist, rather than a right-wing nationalist party, if their coalition was to hold together and get enough support from diverse sections of the population to win the next election.

Mr Advani once said to me: "Hinduism is so varied you can't actually appeal to Hindus in the name of religion."
He is the founder of India's ruling party (BJP), who rallied the Hindu's across the nation towards a march to Ayodhya in 1992, only to find himself he couldn't control them from destroying the mosque there which Hindu believe is a birthplace of their god Rama, but excavations below the mosque found it be more resembling Siva temple than Rama temple.

How does reincarnation and Caste system go together to be fair?. I know people blaming Hindu religion for unfairness, but haven't heard ridiculing the incarnation as a stupid concept. For most of the Hindu's, looking at the diversity of the problems people face irrespective of stays (rich/poor or high/lower caste, healthy/unhealthy, happy/unhappy etc.) there has to be a reason, that reincarnation is one possible explanation though there is no way to prove any thing with clarity. People used word "Karma" to explain it, though some cases, it is used in fatalistic escapist sense.

1995-09-02
A: As we have told you before, if you will be patient just a moment, the universe is merely a school. And, a school is there for all to learn. That is why everything exists. There is no other reason. Now, if only you understood the true depth of that statement, you would begin to start to see, and experience for yourself, all the levels of density that it is possible to experience, all the dimensions that it is possible to experience, all awareness. When an individual understands that statement to its greatest possible depth, that individual becomes illumined. And, certainly you have heard of that. And, for one moment, which lasts for all eternity, that individual knows absolutely everything that there is to know.
There is one argument i heard enough number of times. "In the past( Hinduism is almost 4000+ years old), lower caste people are not treated badly, people lived in their mold of their parental profession and lived in their tribal communities and did their part. That's why it survived." Even though It is hard to imagine this, but it is interesting that Caste system survived this long(since Aryan Invasion). In this globalized contemporary society, it is "Racist" to discriminate any body or any thing based on any number of criteria, but we seems to have done this in our entire history all over the place.
 

Joe

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Half.That's half the population that's inbred. Microcephaly birth defect is so common they have a colloquial name for them.They're called ''rat people''.Now I am aware that some nobles were horribly inbred,but as far as I'm aware there weren't any groups identified specifically by birth defects stemming from incest.
Pakistan has the highest rate of cousin marriage in predominantly Muslim nations. But your conclusion seems to be masquerading as a premise: cousin marriage is fundamentally 'deviant' and therefore so are Muslims who practice it.
 

Joe

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Anytime you bring up negatives or wish to talk about unpleasant aspects of Islam, you get disingenuous replies that mention the crusades and inquisition as if that negates the wrongs done by the caliphate
This claim in itself can often be an attempt to shut down debate and an attempt to give sole validity to your own argument. When someone points to the crusades or the inquisition in response to negative comments about Islam, it is not, or should not be, for the purposes of whitewashing the negative aspects of Islam but to bring context to the discussion.

In the current climate around discussions of Islam, that is often a useful thing to do because so many people want to utterly demonize Islam (much to the delight of Zionists and their mandate). The point being, someone who is aware of his own failings and 'crimes' is unlikely to be so hardcore about demonizing the crimes of others. So it is sometimes necessary to remind them of those failings in an effort to get them to see things in a more balanced, nuanced way, even if the conclusion still favors one side over the other. Rarely is one side all black and the other all white, or even close that level of contrast.
 
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Joe

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My point is that it's one thing to say ''don't lose your way,keep the faith'' and another when you're confronted with the cold reality of what people with a wildly different set of cultural values are actually like.
I understand and agree with what you're saying, but if you are directly and personally confronted with predictable negative aspects of this evil plot, then you more than anyone may need to take a breath and step back. The last thing I'd like to see is you out in a right wing anti-immigrant march. Not necessarily because I totally disagree with the reasons people go to such marches, but because I think it would be a dangerous thing for you to get directly involved in that way.
 

seek10

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All this discussion reminds me of events of past and for what it's worth, I will write it down. Given that India hosts 3rd largest muslim population and largest minority Muslim population, the frictions are interesting and shapes the politics and others. when I read these ancient religious texts and political realities, my mind try to correlate it to current situation.

-When i was a kid (5-9 in 70's) I used to live in a small town where I was told "Don't cross the railway track and if you go there, they will do sunthi(means circumcision)". of course it is stereo typing. It happened that, this small town (Don't mean to generalize it across the country) has lot of Hindu- Muslim conflicts and their own territories and schools etc. When I went Muslim area for some other reason, At first, i was startled by meat shops and big knifes they display on the shop etc, but got used to it. Interestingly, after coming to US, I had procedure that i came to know later(after a decade) that is called "medical circumcision".;-)

- When I was in college( late 80's), we all used to watch cricket matches on a common TV. India, Pakistan matches tend to be intense, Muslims tend to cheer Pakistan and irritated Hindu's tend to shout, If you like Pakistan, why don't you go there, Any way, they will treat you like second hand citizens ( Mujahirs ). I got a impression that, our muslim friends really did lot thinking and stopped cheering for Pakistan after that.

- When Ayodhya mosque was destroyed in 92, nation went into violence taking around 2000 lives. At that time, I was in Muslim dominated areas of Hyderabad(India) and lot of violence and we came under 2 or 3 weeks of 24 hrs shoot at sight curfew and food shortage. I was puzzled to see One of my 5 yr old neighbor kid shouting "Let the B***D's come, I will Kill them all". What the hell this 5 yr old kid knows except, he can't play on the street, probably he didn't had milk for a 2 or 3 weeks. This is the first time I wondered about Hindu Muslim relation beyond the tribalistic caste relations.

Identity politics of the country went through lot of changes during the last 30 years.

- Since 90's, Hindu nationalist party became big force, mainly due to the weakness in the secular Congress party which ruled most of the time. Most of the average people are secular.

- By 2014, Modi from Hindu nationalist party became PM on "economy platform" and all the Hindu fundamentalists who were protesting for so long for their "Victim hood"( under 400 years of mogul + 150 years of British rule) had their wishes fulfilled. Then What?

- "Cow Politics": They did banned Cows slaughter and so called "Cow vigilantes" splashed news with lunchings (28 dead since 2010, out of which half of the time, hindu party BJP in power), secular and muslim leftists moaned saying country became "Lynchistan", Muslim celebrities went on to TV to leave the country, Leftists like Arundhati Roy returned their Govt. awards etc. where will they go? - they can't become 2nd citizen in Pakistan or live in Islamophobic West, so only people who left the country are who looted the banks irrespective of religion.
As time passed by late 2017, opposition congress party(supposed to be secular Gandhi-Nehru dynasty) which was struggling make any footing, jumped on to Hindu appease mode and even won couple of states narrowly recently. Once in power in the state of Madhya Pradesh, first thing Congress did is to creating shelters for Cows. Why do cows needs shelter if they are so revered?. Well, Economy trumps God. As the Cows has milking season and after it is over, people are leaving them on street. Now Media is crying that "Govt's are giving shelter to cow ignoring the farmers who are committing suicide". Even Modi, who promoted this "Sacred Cow" thing at first, went silent on this and even criticized the lynching though slow due to usual internal politics.

My guess is, soon Cow Politics will run out of fuel and nobody will care about Cows in future.

- "Temple Politics": This is a long saga of stalemate after destruction of Ayodhya Mosque in 1992 and one thought this issue will be resolved after 2014. Well, nothing happened. Way back in 2010 under Secular Congress rule, Allahabad court decided to split the "destroyed Mosque area" are in to 3 parts - one for Hindu temple, another for Muslim Mosque and another part to another Hindu contestant. No party is happy with this. So, It went to Supreme court, Even Modi govt. don't want it to come out of Court after 2019 elections. Small right wing parties like Siva Sena (which has only local presence in state of "Maharastra") against Modi Govt. for not building temple, though the real reason is BJP local cadre thinks they can win without Siva Sena help. This is how it works in Politics.

- "Reservation Politics": Since Gandhian time (Before independence in 1947), oppressed classes(lower caste people) wants the reservations in higher education and they got it after independence and it was supposed to be for 25 years. But no body can dare to remove, in fact, it went to all sort of morphing during every election season mostly at according to regional political configurations of the time. some upper caste wants their caste to be marked as backward caste so that they are eligible for reservation etc. Lot of shades to it. In Late 80's, our local state govt. decided to make reservations to 80% from 50%, upper caste people all went onto streets in silent protests as we will n't have merit based low cost higher education, luckily it was reversed. so I can attribute my education to this reversal.

As the 2019 elections coming closer, "Free bee politics" are in full swing. Telangana state govt. increased reservations to backward Muslims to exceed supreme court limit of 50%, Congress party promised 10% reservations to low-income upper caste people, if they are elected in 2019, so Modi put the bill to give 10% reservation to the same group before the elections. So the "Circus" goes on.:headbash:

You must be wondering What the hell all this is, how this country even survive at all. If you feel that, you are not alone. Thanks to the so-called "Democracy" and politics that facilitates it, all sorts of things happen. Not bad when compared with other options and Democracy is the only way country is united.

Majority of Indian Muslims are not much of middle class, but no body prevented them, they decided to follow their Imam's not to get educated and become mainstream. That doesn't mean there is no Muslim contribution to the country as some fundi Hindu's loves to point out. There LOT of examples of their contribution and most of the majority Hindu's are secular. It looks majority Muslims tend to be in their world, aggressively and vehemently oppose any interference. When Western money or local politics adds to the fuel, results are bad.
 

Hindsight Man

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I understand and agree with what you're saying, but if you are directly and personally confronted with predictable negative aspects of this evil plot, then you more than anyone may need to take a breath and step back. The last thing I'd like to see is you out in a right wing anti-immigrant march. Not necessarily because I totally disagree with the reasons people go to such marches, but because I think it would be a dangerous thing for you to get directly involved in that way.
I'm not about to join any marches,though I am sympathetic to their cause.Imagine your neighborhood suddenly being full of Sudanese gang members and the police being utterly useless in the face of disgusting violence(as they often are when it comes to anything other than speeding tickets).

Look I mostly agree with what you said,I just hope that you remember that I'm not some hypothetical right wing neo nazi that's come to take this forum over. Yes I'm obviously right leaning and have plenty of politically incorrect opinions,but I didn't stick around for years just to flunk out now.
 

Joe

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I'm not about to join any marches,though I am sympathetic to their cause.Imagine your neighborhood suddenly being full of Sudanese gang members and the police being utterly useless in the face of disgusting violence(as they often are when it comes to anything other than speeding tickets).
Glad to hear it! And I know from personal experience how provocative it can be to see that kind of thing up close and personal, but like I said, that's all the more reason to take a step back from it, even if it is all the more difficult in that situation.

Look I mostly agree with what you said,I just hope that you remember that I'm not some hypothetical right wing neo nazi that's come to take this forum over. Yes I'm obviously right leaning and have plenty of politically incorrect opinions,but I didn't stick around for years just to flunk out now.
I neither think that about you nor do I imagine it would be a problem even if you were. :-D So it's all good on that front. And in case you haven't noticed, most of us are right leaning and have plenty of politically incorrect opinions around here. But I'm disinclined to be fully possessed by any of the earthly ideologies that are on offer these days. Like I keep saying, everything going on right now smells like a setup, and while I'm more than happy to interact with it all, I don't trust myself enough to not question every idea that happens to come across my feed or into my mind. There's always more to learn and understand, always more details, more nuances, more complexity. At least, that's what I've come to understand.
 

Joe

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All this discussion reminds me of events of past and for what it's worth, I will write it down. Given that India hosts 3rd largest muslim population and largest minority Muslim population, the frictions are interesting and shapes the politics and others. when I read these ancient religious texts and political realities, my mind try to correlate it to current situation.
Thanks for that brief history of Indian politics and Hindu/Muslim relations, very interesting.
 

luc

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I neither think that about you nor do I imagine it would be a problem even if you were. :-D So it's all good on that front. And in case you haven't noticed, most of us are right leaning and have plenty of politically incorrect opinions around here. But I'm disinclined to be fully possessed by any of the earthly ideologies that are on offer these days. Like I keep saying, everything going on right now smells like a setup, and while I'm more than happy to interact with it all, I don't trust myself enough to not question every idea that happens to come across my feed or into my mind. There's always more to learn and understand, always more details, more nuances, more complexity. At least, that's what I've come to understand.
Well said IMO! And I think this is the kind of attitude we must learn to master, especially if we are potentially dealing with "higher intelligences" trying to screw our minds. Perhaps it comes down to this: do you accept evil, do you make yourself an accomplice to evil in any way? Like the comment the C's made about "accepting torture" as the "mark of the beast": do you accept torture, literally or figuratively?

You can do that in many ways, whether you're a Muslim making up excuses for the radical elements in Islam and Sharia law, or whether you're a Westerner buying into Gender ideology. And while we all wish that our leaders should be better than they are, it's still our responsibility to draw the line, if only in our minds, whether you live under the Saudi head choppers or under the Western Gender-bender-child-abusers. Whether you're an extreme right-winger itching to shoot migrants or a lefty do-gooder excusing raping migrants. There are so many ways to become an accomplice of evil, and the trick is to navigate reality so as to see through the various setups and traps. And I'm thankful we have this network here - it's becoming more obvious by the day how important that is and that we wouldn't stand a chance alone!!
 

Hindsight Man

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Glad to hear it! And I know from personal experience how provocative it can be to see that kind of thing up close and personal, but like I said, that's all the more reason to take a step back from it, even if it is all the more difficult in that situation.



I neither think that about you nor do I imagine it would be a problem even if you were. :-D So it's all good on that front. And in case you haven't noticed, most of us are right leaning and have plenty of politically incorrect opinions around here. But I'm disinclined to be fully possessed by any of the earthly ideologies that are on offer these days. Like I keep saying, everything going on right now smells like a setup, and while I'm more than happy to interact with it all, I don't trust myself enough to not question every idea that happens to come across my feed or into my mind. There's always more to learn and understand, always more details, more nuances, more complexity. At least, that's what I've come to understand.
I'll do my best to be civil as long as civility is possible. Cassies said that the psychos are going to be blamed and a new world is coming,so there's a ray of hope.But it also pays to keep in mind that we're living (literally) through biblical times and there's a whole lot of darkness coming.Considering that the plan is to embroil the entirety of the west in a civil war I imagine there's going to be a fair bit of violence. I highly suspect that the elite's plan of swooping in and ''saving'' the west at the final moment won't work. I get your point regarding politics though,for example the Australian Liberal party is technically the right wing one,but in actuality they're corporatist whores.The Labor party is better for workers,but is becoming increasingly infested with leftist ideology.The Greens are dirty commies and you can't change my mind on that one.What's a man to do?

This is a bit of a tangent,but some years ago I had a dream in which I saw symbolic progression of my life,if that makes sense.At first I was just on a ship full of people,then I started learning about technology,then a powerful wave came,except it wasn't water.It was more like a kinetic wave.After that I was stuck with a small group of people trying to survive against an organised group of paramilitaries/slavers. I saw London lying in ruins.The weird part is that I occasionally connect small things in daily life to that dream.Last year I started a technical course on a whim and it feels like my life now is covering that particular chapter in the dream. It's not the only one I've had,but the more I trust my intuition the more it feels like I'm on that particular path.In fact listening to my intuition is what made me more right wing in the first place.
Again,I think I'm articulating myself poorly,but I'm tired.I appreciate you taking the time to extrapolate your points instead of leaving it at a condescending remark.
 

thorbiorn

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You must be wondering What the hell all this is, how this country even survive at all. If you feel that, you are not alone. Thanks to the so-called "Democracy" and politics that facilitates it, all sorts of things happen. Not bad when compared with other options and Democracy is the only way country is united.

Majority of Indian Muslims are not much of middle class, but no body prevented them, they decided to follow their Imam's not to get educated and become mainstream. That doesn't mean there is no Muslim contribution to the country as some fundi Hindu's loves to point out. There LOT of examples of their contribution and most of the majority Hindu's are secular. It looks majority Muslims tend to be in their world, aggressively and vehemently oppose any interference. When Western money or local politics adds to the fuel, results are bad.
Thank you for the review of the life and politics in the second most populated country in the world, close to (and perhaps more in reality) than 1,4 billion: Population by Country (2019) - Worldometers
Maybe a functional chaos is what makes India incomprehensible and still in a situation to continue existing.
 

Joe

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Cassies said that the psychos are going to be blamed and a new world is coming, so there's a ray of hope
Even if not, we're all gonna die some day too. So 'how do you want to live you life?' should be the question, and leave the rest up to 'the universe' or 'god' or whatever. The new age idea of 'if you choose to not focus on the bad stuff, it won't manifest in your life' is wrong, as we know. Instead, learn everything there is to learn about life - good and bad - to the best of your ability, and THEN choose. You are under no obligation to suffer and die horribly in some civil war or horrible conflagration. Gather knowledge, apply it, and have faith. You can do no more.
 

mkrnhr

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It's fascinating to see how easy it is to fall into identity politics, whether in its left-leaning or right-leaning manifestations. Radical islam is also identity politics to some extent. It's a trap that is avoidable by taking a step back and looking at history, geography, and psychology. For instance, is the islam of an indonesian peasant the same as the islam of a middle class lawyer in Saudi Arabia? Short answer is no, and the long answer is no as well. Without considering individual circumstances and the variability in the human condition everywhere at various times, it's easy to fall into exagerated oversimplifications. There are patterns, and there are patterns within patterns. However, one can easily be blinded by one level of analysis and miss all the others.
 

SlipNet

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I neither think that about you nor do I imagine it would be a problem even if you were. :-D So it's all good on that front. And in case you haven't noticed, most of us are right leaning and have plenty of politically incorrect opinions around here. But I'm disinclined to be fully possessed by any of the earthly ideologies that are on offer these days. Like I keep saying, everything going on right now smells like a setup, and while I'm more than happy to interact with it all, I don't trust myself enough to not question every idea that happens to come across my feed or into my mind. There's always more to learn and understand, always more details, more nuances, more complexity. At least, that's what I've come to understand.
As I've gotten older (44 now) I've noticed that my understanding and perspective has shifted as I listened more to the nuances of politicians when they speak. I was always cynical of the right in the UK, but I've subsequently become by the same token more nuanced to the left also. This has resulted in me taking a centrist position which supports neither side, but takes the best aspects of both. I find the conservatives to be less ideologically annoying, but there remains massive assumptions about our historical past which rankle me.

I'll remain in the centre, and watch on as extremists continue to annoy and bemuse me....
 
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