The Mecca Mystery: Probing the Black Hole at the Heart of Muslim History by Peter Townsend

Laura

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I'd like to bring the conversation back to the topic of the thread: the fact that Mecca did not exist when Islamic stories say it did, and that Muhammad certainly did not exist when, where, and as depicted.

Also, consider what the Cs said about this in the recent session, in comparison to Christianity and Judaism. What I would like to consider is this: Islam is based largely on Judaism - the whole Abraham and Ishmael thing. But biblical scholars worth their degrees know that this story of Abraham is made up. Abraham and Moses are just basically the same character, though Moses has been stripped of a lot of features so as to explain why he, the greatest prophet of Judaism, just sort of fades from the scene.

So, Islam, as it is now, is a fraud based on a still older fraud.

The apocalyptic elements are derived from the earliest form of Christianity, i.e. the Dead Sea Scrolls zealot types who were basing THEIR apocalypticism on the books of Enoch and related texts.

Paul came along and took the idea of a messiah, looked around and said, Oh, Caesar is really the only one who fits the messiah bill, and instituted what amounted to a form of glorified ancestor worship/patronage. His Messiah was a man of mercy and forgiveness, and instituted an new reality for those who would seek his patronage and be part of his new "family."

The stories of Paul's doings got amalgamated with the stories of Caesar and presto: "Jesus Christ".

Later on, it seems that Judaizers got hold of the early church and insisted on co-opting the Old Testament against what Paul taught. So, that fraud Abraham and Moses got grandfathered in there.

Still, when all is said and done, it appears that Christianity has more of a claim to being based on something real and meaningful, that is, not entirely a lie.

So, the question is: what does it to to the souls/minds of those who believe complete lies?
 

thorbiorn

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So, the question is: what does it to to the souls/minds of those who believe complete lies?
I'm sure there are some threads and posts where we have discussed this issue of the influence of lies. This is just a few words about this topic:

If one buys into a complete lie, then one accepts something in which there is no truth, one gives in to non-being, so how will that then help one to evolve as a soul? In terms of STS and STO influences, there will be less room for STO, it seems.
I am also reminded of the quote from the C's; I don't recall the exact date, but copied it from another post:
""Life is religion. Life experiences reflect how one interacts with God. Those who are asleep are those of little faith in terms of their interaction with the creation. Some people think that the world exists for them to overcome or ignore or shut out. For those individuals, the worlds will cease. They will become exactly what they give to life. They will become merely a dream in the "past." People who pay strict attention to objective reality right and left, become the reality of the "Future.""
If one believes a lie, one also shuts out a part of the objective reality. I'm also reminded that in Christian tradition, it is a custom that a married woman may wear black when her husband or a relative dies. In Islamic cultures of several countries wearing black is just what women do; without attempting to deduce too much from such a trivial observation, perhaps that is still rather symbolic. In continuation of the answer on the individual level would be the question of what the effect is of complete lies being believed on a collective level by a whole population or group of people. Here the work on ponerology is a help; believing lies would help the work of psychopaths in society.
 
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Joe

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It's fascinating to see how easy it is to fall into identity politics, whether in its left-leaning or right-leaning manifestations. Radical islam is also identity politics to some extent. It's a trap that is avoidable by taking a step back and looking at history, geography, and psychology. For instance, is the islam of an indonesian peasant the same as the islam of a middle class lawyer in Saudi Arabia? Short answer is no, and the long answer is no as well. Without considering individual circumstances and the variability in the human condition everywhere at various times, it's easy to fall into exagerated oversimplifications. There are patterns, and there are patterns within patterns. However, one can easily be blinded by one level of analysis and miss all the others.
Very well said!
 

Joe

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So, the question is: what does it to to the souls/minds of those who believe complete lies?
I think it might have more to do with what part of the religious teaching a person internalizes. Also, given that an awful lot of history (even very recent history) is complete lies, I hope that people cannot be condemned for believing complete lies, otherwise almost everyone is in big trouble. Maybe the real problem is with believing complete lies that are known to be lies (even allowing for after-the-fact narratives to justify it). People that believe lies that they sincerely believe are truth may get a 'dispensation', to some extent.
 

thorbiorn

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So, the question is: what does it to to the souls/minds of those who believe complete lies?
If it is true that "knowledge protects", then it should follow that a lie doesn't protect.
There have been some articles about lies: Slippery slope: Telling small lies desensitizes your brain to self-serving dishonesty -- Sott.net
"Telling small lies desensitises your brain to the associated negative emotions and may encourage you to tell bigger lies in the future, suggests new research at University College London.

The research provides the first empirical evidence that self-serving lies gradually escalate and shows how this happens in our brains.

The team scanned volunteers' brains while they took part in tasks where they could lie for personal gain. They found that the amygdala, a part of the brain associated with emotion, was most active when people first lied for personal gain. The amygdala's response to lying declined with every lie while the magnitude of the lies escalated. "
But here they are talking about knowing that one lies, but if a person does not know, as would be the case when one believes in a relgious dogma, what then?

However some dogma to function requires cognitive dissonance in the mind. About cognitive dissonance there was How and Why We Lie to Ourselves: Cognitive Dissonance -- Sott.net which ends:
A beautiful theory

Since this experiment numerous studies of cognitive dissonance have been carried out and the effect is well-established. Its beauty is that it explains so many of our everyday behaviours. Here are some examples provided by Morton Hunt in his classic work 'The Story of Psychology':
  • When trying to join a group, the harder they make the barriers to entry, the more you value your membership. To resolve the dissonance between the hoops you were forced to jump through, and the reality of what turns out to be a pretty average club, we convince ourselves the club is, in fact, fantastic.
  • People will interpret the same information in radically different ways to support their own views of the world. When deciding our view on a contentious point, we conveniently forget what jars with our own theory and remember everything that fits.
  • People quickly adjust their values to fit their behaviour, even when it is clearly immoral. Those stealing from their employer will claim that "Everyone does it" so they would be losing out if they didn't, or alternatively that "I'm underpaid so I deserve a little extra on the side."
Once you start to think about it, the list of situations in which people resolve cognitive dissonance through rationalisations becomes ever longer and longer. If you're honest with yourself, I'm sure you can think of many times when you've done it yourself. I know I can.

Being aware of this can help us avoid falling foul of the most dangerous consequences of cognitive dissonance: believing our own lies.
 

thorbiorn

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I think it might have more to do with what part of the religious teaching a person internalizes.
I agree, and there is also the concept of being a cultural Christian, a cultural Muslim, a cultural Hindu, Buddhist or Jew. A cultural Christian would be What is cultural Christianity?:
Question: "What is cultural Christianity?"

Answer:
Cultural Christianity is religion that superficially identifies itself as “Christianity” but does not truly adhere to the faith. A “cultural Christian” is a nominal believer—he wears the label “Christian,” but the label has more to do with his family background and upbringing than any personal conviction that Jesus is Lord. Cultural Christianity is more social than spiritual. A cultural Christian identifies with certain aspects of Christianity, such as the good works of Jesus, but rejects the spiritual aspects required to be a biblically defined Christian. Some people consider themselves “Christians” because of family background, personal experience, country of residence, or social environment. Others identify as “Christian” as a way of declaring a religious affiliation, as opposed to being “Muslim” or “Buddhist.” Famed scientist and atheist Richard Dawkins refers to himself as a “cultural Christian” because he admires some of the ceremonial and philanthropic aspects of Christianity. Dawkins is not born again; he simply sees “Christianity” as a label to use.
A cultural Muslim is similarly according to writers of the Wiki Cultural Muslim - Wikipedia
Cultural Muslims
are religiously unobservant, secular or irreligious individuals who still identify with the Muslim culture or the religion due to family background, personal experiences, or the social and cultural environment in which they grew up. Cultural Muslims can be found across the world, but are especially numerous in the Middle East (Arabic speaking countries as well as in Israel, Turkey and Iran), Europe, Central Asia, North America, and parts of South and Southeast Asia.

A cultural Muslim internalizes the Islamic cultural tradition, or way of thinking, as a frame of reference. Cultural Muslims are diverse in terms of norms, values, political opinions, and religious views. They retain a shared "discourse or structure of feeling" related to shared history and memories.[3] Spyros A. Sofos; Roza Tsagarousianou (2013). Islam in Europe: Public Spaces and Civic Networks. Palgrave Macmillan. ISBN 978-1137357779.

The concept of a cultural Muslim - someone who identifies as a Muslim yet is not religious - is not met with acceptance in conservative Islamic religious communities..[4] Corinne Blake (2003). Brannon M. Wheeler, ed. Teaching Islam. Oxford University Press. p. 175. ISBN 0-19-515224-7
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:BookSources/0-19-515224-7
 

Approaching Infinity

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So, the question is: what does it to to the souls/minds of those who believe complete lies?
I don't think there's a simple answer to that question! First of all, I'll just say that I think believing lies ALWAYS has some negative effect, thought it is probably hard to measure. That's impossible in a materialistic worldview, because if such a thing is true, there must be some way in which the unconscious is able to recognize the truth in any situation where a lie is believed. In other words, some way for the lie to be recognized as a lie and thus have some real effect.

In many cases, however, there's a direct worldly response to believing a lie, which doesn't require such a subconscious recognition. For example, believing that a loved one is a great person when they are actually a psychopath (or vice versa). When beliefs with direct relevance to practical life are wrong, there is a mismatch with objective reality and your actions will not get the results you think the should. For example, drinking vodka when believing it is water. (That said, I haven't figured out how to fit placebo/nocebo effects into this framework! Maybe another time.)

But there are cases when there is too much causal 'distance' between the belief and the thing believed. Say you believe your favorite piece of music was composed in June of 1632 when it was actually in May. That fact is unlikely to influence your life in any meaningful way. But if there IS a subconscious access to the entire field of information - however weak or strong it may be in practice - then on some level your psyche will be aware of this mismatch between belief and reality.

So I think there must be levels of lies and the levels of the impact they have on the psyche. Some are more relevant and potentially more harmful than others. For instance, just considering 'matters of fact', I'd say there are at least 4 categories of errors: small and insignificant, large and insignificant, small and significant, large and significant. Of course, figuring out where each particular lie falls within the categories is hard work. Minor details can be trivial or catastrophic in their effects. Same with 'big ideas', I think. Is believing in the historical reality of a particular figure who didn't actually exist as portrayed important? What about NOT believing in someone who did? I think context is probably everything, which leads to another set of categories to consider: matters of value.

Just as there are small and large, and significant and relatively insignificant, facts, I think there are good and bad principles/values which can be rightly or wrongly understood: bad principles accepted as true and put into practice, good principles wrongly understood, bad principles wrongly understood, good principles rightly understood and practiced.

Then there's the factor of the depth and breadth of the belief in one's life: how much impact it actually has on your behavior.

Without going through all the possible permutations, I'll just say I don't think it's impossible to have a person who believes a big lie who turns out to be a better person than the person who doesn't believe that particular lie. And I think the deciding factor there is probably the values that are imbibed. So there's no one-size-fits-all answer. But as with most things of this sort, the majority of people will be swayed positively or negatively based on the nature of the belief and the values or lack thereof that accompany it. And it may be that with the right combination you get a cluster of lies that is on the whole toxic for the majority of people who believe that lie. Other clusters will affect more or fewer people.

So to answer this particular question, we'd need to look at the whole cluster: what are the specific beliefs, how might those beliefs affect an overall worldview and the resulting actions, what values are present or absent? Those are some of the things I hope to tease out in my reading this year...
 

seek10

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I have seen some who believed in God (one form or other whether they are historically correct or not), doing good for others according to their immediate environment circumstances. I tend to think it depends on what they do with it. There are some who did good to their environment, but not to the family and vice versa. So there may be different criteria for each. There are some come to power with lies, but does good for lot of people and vice versa. Those who deliberately lie and knowingly hurt are the one's worst one's.

I think the context here is religious lies that gets propagated to billions of vulnerable who blindly follow thinking it is truth. It will creates a large section of zombie authoritarian followers that only produces devolution.
 

goyacobol

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So, the question is: what does it to to the souls/minds of those who believe complete lies?
I am not sure I understand precisely "complete" lies. But in a general sense lies that are believed strongly vs with-reservation might make a difference. And as others commented the situations are almost infinite when it comes to the environments and the levels of damage that could result to souls/minds.

I was thinking of the descriptions you gave in The Wave about "light eaters" which really seems to describe what 4D STS has done with religions. They weave strands of truth into their stories/histories that have just enough to keep the followers believing/obeying but never allowing them to learn the "complete" truth/light of reality.

I picture this 4D STS creature carrying a black bag containing "light". He has gathered so much light that he can not eat it all at once but does not want to share it so he hides it for himself. The more he gathers the weight of the bag becomes heavier and heavier. Eventually the bag stretches so much it starts to get holes here and there, from the pressure. He tries to plug the holes but as soon as he fixes one leak another one appears. Looking around him he sees other 4D "light eaters" who offer to help by eating the light escaping from the bag.

This works for awhile but eventually the bag bursts and the light spills out all over the place. There are not enough 4D STS light eaters to gather all the light and without the bag to hide the light those who never could see that light begin to notice all that light that was previously hidden in the black bag which was tightly woven and constructed using "lies".

Also, there were those 3D STO candidates who could not previously see some of the light hidden in the bag until holes started letting the light escape into their reality. They quickly gathered up as much light as they could and began to share it with others who also were desperately searching for the light/truth.

Well, I don't know how the story ends and I didn't really plan to answer exactly like this. Hope it is not off-topic.
 

thorbiorn

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Regarding the question of belief and the influence on the brain/mind/soul there is also from a Session where the Zulu tribe in Southern Africa is discussed in Session 31 July 2002 :
A: [...] Groups of people represent energy portals in cosmic rather than global terms.
[...]
Q: (Perceval) So their genetics...it's a function of genetics... (A) I would ask if there is any other say nation or tribe of similar make-up? (S) Yeah, maybe there's a tribe in every section of the world, or something.

A: There is a "spectrum" as Mouravieff suggests, however the Zulu compose a sort of "drone" tone.

Q: (S) So is this something they do deliberately or is it something unconscious?

A: It is a function of the 4th density energies they "represent."
If there is an interactive relationship between the genetics of the body and the environment, and if part of the environment can be taken to include the belief systems, as these influence not only the mind, but also the way we behave, what we eat or don't eat (including fasting), then it may be that the lies believed by a group of people also influence the unfolding of their genetic potential.

At the same time, the lies believed by a group of people may influence the quality of the energy portals they participate in. From this perspective there might be a difference between a groups of people who mostly only have a cultural relationship to the religion practiced by the forebears be it cultural Muslims, cultural Hindus, cultural Christians or Jews.

What I'm curious about is, if some of the lies have been promoted in some regions of the planet among some groups of people not only to institute control, but also to forestall particular possible developments of their genetic potential that could be valuable from an STO perspective?

Regarding the situation in the ME, might some of the suffering and mayhem not only benefit the STS forces in terms of their desire for control and the spread of chaos, but also in others increase their chances of achieving quick growth of knowledge and ultimately transformation?
 

Arwenn

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So, the question is: what does it to to the souls/minds of those who believe complete lies?
This has been discussed on the forum before, but the topic of believing in lies always reminds me of Michael Topper’s Précis on Stalking:

The higher density positive entities are light beings. The higher density negative entities are "light eaters." Love is light, is knowledge. When they induce belief against what is objectively true, they have "eaten" the light-knowledge of the person who has chosen blind belief over fact! When you believe a lie, you have allowed the eating of your energy of awareness!

When you do not take the time and trouble to check things out for yourself, to do the research, to compare, to network, to get a consensus, you have given away your power. You have failed in the creative act of learning.

Such beings are associated with darkness because the light- knowledge is drawn into the cavernous "black hole" of their congenital emptiness. […] All the massive, cosmic project they are engaged in in full consciousness and on the grand scale, is ultimately a means of "cornering the market" on energy, monopolizing all the known fields of light or light potential.


The expanding order they attempt to impose, the totalitarian control over increasingly large numbers they attempt to exert, is the fantastical and internally self-contradictory project of coercing everything in creation to work for them, to cultivate and keep the fields of their energy-reserves and to furnish self-replenishing "herds" of emotional source-nutriment which can be converted into useful energy or light-capital.


Since the negative beings can’t generate an important light-energy source themselves, they they use the reserves of the beings effectually harnessed in thrall to them. […]

There is an immediate psychic bond produced by belief. There is an instantaneous linkage and interpenetration with the individual who has chosen to believe a lie. The higher-dimensional beings have subtle, vertical filamental axes fixed on human beings. Those subtle nerve-networks process radiant-energy values, drawn in through the etheric "chakras" of the higher-dimensional systems, represented by the pineal/pituitary glands.

 
EVERYTHING BEGINS WITH A THOUGHT/IDEA.
Niall reply 104:

Joe said:
At least someone agrees with me!

Pro-Brexit activist said all Muslims should be removed from UK
Oh dear.

Niall said:

Joe's gone full Crusader.

Never go full Crusader!
------------------
IN ONE OF THE POSSIBLE WORLDS:

He can not go alone, Niall, he needs a partner.

I imagine Joe and Niall riding the two on a single horse in the middle east in a new crusade to get information about the secret place where the parchment is hidden with the formulas necessary for Laura and her assistant monks to decipher, and save France from chaos, and begin to unify Europe using SOTT as one of the blessed networks.

How about traveling with this music.

 
Laura said:
"So, the question is: what does it to to the souls/minds of those who believe complete lies?"

Exactly, a few hours ago I was thinking that, related to another thread where Pashalis referred to "facts" and I started thinking about the facts: THE LIE IS ALSO A FACT.
 
So you are referring to Muhammed/Muhammad...Looks like it actually could have been Xerxes or Caesar? Puts a whole new light on Caesar if that would be the case.

Thank heavens, I thought we were going to end up with a Caesar was Mohammed thread there at one stage ;-)

Xerxes, now that's a whole different matter......... or maybe not.

Reminds me of that old adage;


Kill a man - you are a murderer

Kill many - you are a conqueror

Kill them all - you are a god

But then I've just got home from night shift so I might actually be thinking a Megadeth song?

Either way, as Dave Mustaine says so elegantly -

Captive honour, ain't no honour


Oh dear.

Joe's gone full Crusader.

Never go full Crusader!

Gee, I don't know Niall?

While I don't agree with everything Joe says, much of it uncannily mirrors my own opinions such that I could have written it myself (though if I was more eloquent and clearer of mind).

And I wonder if this emergence of a slightly more strident opinion isn't due to his warrior aspect also trilling to the faint sussuration of el Degüello that seems to be on the wind?

In light of the recent session;


(Joe) Is the promotion in Western society of a hostile attitude towards traditional masculine qualities part of a broader nefarious plan?

A: Yes

Q: (Joe) Is part of that to try and make a generation of weak men?

A: Yes

I feel that it may be prudent to remember that - as a first priority - we've got women and children to look after?

You blokes in particular!


Maybe now some of you will understand why our final statement on the matter of human society is sometimes to declare "bring on the comets!" That's not a reckless, nihilist wishing for it all to end for our own sakes, but more like a rational conclusion after judicious study of the problem.

And personally, the reality of 'comets' still strikes me as a two edged sword?

Though due to his passion and glorious disregard for self, I'm going to nominate Joe as William Travis.

Hopefully we can raise 200 this time my friend......

Victory or death lads :cool2:
 
I am halfway into Mecca Mystery. One thing that comes to mind when reading about the hadiths is the french expression "Téléphone arabe" (litteraly : Arab telephone / English expression: grapevine). Oh ! the grape is in there too ;)
 
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