The Odyssey - Manual of Secret Teachings?

Re: The Odyssey - question for all!

Ana said:
Laura said:
Obviously, our reality is a bit different from living in the bush, but the principle is the same. Observing, seeing, taking note of everything, reading the signs, responding to everything in an appropriate way, are all practices that bring us closer to our original "way of being". And even if the things we note in the environment are scary, being as fully aware as possible, being response-able to others, helps to restore us to life not to mention opening channels to happiness hitherto unknown. In a sense we can all be Odysseus though the "scenery" of our Odyssey may be somewhat different. Obviously, the dynamics are quite similar.
Thank you, Just reading the excerpts gave me shivers and an intense feeling of nostalgia, for that wich seems lost in the days we are living.

Ditto here, just got to this point in this tread and I felt a kind of relief reading it. Why, because since the beginning of summer, I felt nature is call and could hardly stay away from her.

Passage such as these;
. eco-primitivists argue that one cannot, or should not, be happy while participating in the wholesale destruction of nature. Instead, happiness that resonates with the human spirit is only possible in the context of living in harmony with the natural world. Nothing deserves to be called happiness if it contributes to the demise of life. Any true happiness is life-supporting.

Without... living exactly like our Paleolithic ancestors, we can imitate them by increasing the closeness of our extended kin. This pertains to both physical and emotional closeness. We could develop true friendships of the type that existed in an age prior to the "fair-weather" friendships that dominate today. ... begin to again notice the gifts of nature that are sources of beauty, wonder and nourishment. [/b
]

"In primitive societies, all members who reached maturity were expected to use their intelligence in order to contribute to the good of the whole. Imagine the improbability of finding members of a hunter-gatherer society who expressed pride in their lack of knowledge about hunting and food preparation. Contemporary anti-intellectualism is no less ridiculous; we've just learned to accept it as normal. Among our Stone Age ancestors, survival depended upon devoting one's full attention to one's present activities, whatever they were at the moment. That we assume that our ancient ancestors were stupid reflects an enormous gap in what we refer to today as intelligence."

Without trying to romanticise prehistoric life, the people back then undoubtedly had a tremendous eye for detail. This was born from their here-and-now time location, and their need to be intimately attuned to the immediate environment. It had the effect of tuning them to all potential channels of happiness. ...

I could have put the whole excerpts, can't wait to read the whole book, but those in quote fit exactly the reason that pushed me away from the modern "dead zone of civilisation" as John F. Schumaker call it. They were some of the lessons I tried to bring to my daughter awareness and for me a way of balancing myself within. Attuning myself to the environment, as Schumaker put it, felt like the right path for me to follow this summer. It may look egoistic for some, with all that as to be done, but I will follow my intuition this time and see what come up.
 
Re: The Odyssey - question for all!

Like for many people, but not all I guess by glancing through the subject and by printing the various extracts of shared texts, I read it when I was at school, but, the Pdf I found two months ago is ready to reading as a book on my desk as soon as I will have finish to read "Worlds in Collision" of Immanuel Velikovsky.

Furthermore, my younger daughter will be back from holidays on the next week and we will have fun certainly by starting to study it together before she get back to the College. She is fascinated with mythologies (especially Greek) and she has no idea about all the surprises that I found here and there and kept for her during the summer (because I read "The Antique Science" and others articles talking about myhtologie, science and religion after she went on holidays...). Thank you Laura! ;)
... and thank you all for sharing all these wonderful knowledges.

Be sure I will be back on this specific subject to let you know what are my "fascinating interpretations and comparisons " from these books. The Illiade is ready to be reading too. I just don't know if I will read it just after The Odyssey or if I will start to read Gnosis of Boris Mouravieff.

Maybe some of you would recommend to read Illiade just after The Odyssey? Or before? Does it have any "importance"?
 
Re: The Odyssey - question for all!

Hi,

I have been following this thread with an interest for a while as an admirer of Greek Myths. I would like to offer my take on center of the mosaic concept.

A: Maybe, but suggest you learn to blend mosaic
consciousness.
Q: (L) What is mosaic consciousness?
A: Thinking in internally spherical terms, rather than using
linear "point blank" approach. The whole picture is seen
by seeing the whole scene.
Q: (L) Well, I guess that is why I guess I get into so many
thought patterns...
A: Picture yourself as being at the center of a mosaic.

When I look at Odyssey, the only ones who see the whole scene seems to be gods, looking up to every detail, every event where Odysseus sets on his journey and his son talks to the participants of Trojan War. They see and observe everything.

However, there is another person with the same ability. It is Tiresias, the blind prophet who was dead and summoned by Odysseus in the underworld. He gave Odysseus valuable information about his journey ahead and warned him of dangers that lurk in the great sea.

Tiresias is an interesting character, in terms of how he obtained ability to see this whole secene. There are various versions:

Tiresias was blinded by Athena after he stumbled onto her bathing naked. His mother, Chariclo, a nymph of Athena, begged Athena to undo her curse, but the goddess could not; instead, she cleaned his ears, giving him the ability to understand birdsong, thus the gift of augury.

If we ignore the specifics of seeing Athena naked, an important point, ability to understand birdsong is made in this version. Greek myths state that those who understand the birdsongs can see the future because birds, by seeing earth from a distance above, have the ability of gods seeing things ahead of time. And how this ties with alchemical and Sufi concept of Language of the Birds is an interesting question.

Another version is:

On Mount Cyllene in the Peloponnese, as Tiresias came upon a pair of copulating snakes, he hit the pair a smart blow with his stick. Hera was not pleased, and she punished Tiresias by transforming him into a woman. .... According to some versions of the tale, Lady Tiresias was a prostitute of great renown. After seven years as a woman, Tiresias again found mating snakes; depending on the myth, either she made sure to leave the snakes alone this time, or, according to Hyginus, trampled on them. As a result, Tiresias was released from his sentence and permitted to regain his masculinity. This ancient story is recorded in lost lines of Hesiod.

In a separate episode, Tiresias was drawn into an argument between Hera and her husband Zeus on the theme of who has more pleasure in sex, as he had experienced both conditions: Was it the man, as Hera held firm; or, as Zeus claimed, the woman? Tiresias replied, "Of ten parts a man enjoys one only." Hera instantly struck him blind for his impiety. Zeus could do nothing to stop her, but he did give Tiresias the gift of foresight and a lifespan of seven lives.

Stripped of its narrative, anecdotal and causal connections, the mythic figure of Tiresias combines several archaic elements: the blind seer; the impious interruption of a natural rite (whether of a bathing goddess or coupling serpents); serpents and staff (Caduceus); a holy man's double gender (shaman); and competition between deities.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiresias

Again, if we move past the vulgarity of being a prostitute and pleasure from sex, another interesting concept, being a man and a woman is present here. This may also be related to the unity of feminine and masculine principles or energies as also seen within alchemical works.
 
Re: The Odyssey - question for all!

Scarlett said:
Maybe some of you would recommend to read Illiade just after The Odyssey? Or before? Does it have any "importance"

The Iliad comes before The Odyssey and describes the events of The Trojan War.

Way before I found Sott, I learned about hyperdimensional beings from The Iliad even though I didn't realize what I had been dealing with until I found this website and put 2 and 2 together.

From a human perspective, The Illiad is absolutely terrifying as petty, vain, out of control gods control everything. Yet, and this is what makes this book so special to me, is that in the broad strokes in which the poet creates the canvas of war, there is also celebration of and mourning for the individual. While the gods are petty and care only for themselves, there is a quality of nobility in the suffering of both the Trojans and the Greeks of which the gods seem incapable.

There is a profound metaphor in The Iliad - The Shield of Achilles -forged by Hephaestus, the blacksmith of the gods for the greatest hero of the Greeks.

This shield contains the whole world upon it: all that is in both heaven and earth expressed in duality. In other words, one part of the world will always be at war, while another will always be at peace, one part will be day and the other night. It reminds me of the words of Ecclesiates in The Bible:

"There is an appointed time for everything. And there is a time for every event under heaven ~
2 A time to give birth, and a time to die; A time to plant, and a time to uproot what is planted.
3 A time to kill, and a time to heal; A time to tear down, and a time to build up.
4 A time to weep, and a time to laugh; A time to mourn, and a time to dance.
5 A time to throw stones, and a time to gather stones; A time to embrace, and a time to shun embracing.
6 A time to search, and a time to give up as lost; A time to keep, and a time to throw away.
7 A time to tear apart, and a time to sew together; A time to be silent, and a time to speak.
8 A time to love, and a time to hate; A time for war, and a time for peace.

In The Iliad rules of civilization and culture disintegrate and fall apart.

But this is not so in The Odyssey where justice and balance is being restored.

Maybe the lessons that we need to learn right now are in The Odyssey which is why Laura chose to have us study it now instead of The Iliad.

But later, if you have time, yes I do think it is important and recommend that you read it.


Edit=Quotes
 
Re: The Odyssey - question for all!

I have never read the Iliad or Odyssey or. I will take for them next month.
 
Re: The Odyssey - question for all!

I hadn't find time of reading it, but I like to interpret mythology so I'll try to read it all.
 
Re: The Odyssey - question for all!

The discussion on shamanism in the latest session prompted me to take a look at a book I had on the shelf: The Strong Eye of Shamanism: A Journey Into the Caves of Consciousness by Robert E. Ryan. Here are a couple interesting quotes from the Introduction:

{list of cultures with shamanic influence} And classical scholars E. R. Dodds, Erwin Rohde, W. K. C. Guthrie, and Walter Burkert all see shamanic figures moving dimly behind Greek myth, religion, and philosophy. ...

And Eliade notes, "It is likewise probably that the pre-ecstatic euphoria [of the shaman] constituted one of the universal sources of lyric poetry." he goes on:

"The shaman's adventures in the other world, the ordeals that he undergoes in his ecstatic descents below and ascents to the sky, suggest the adventures of the figures in popular tales and the heroes of epic literature. Probably a large number of epic "subjects" or motifs, as well as many characters, images, and cliches of epic literature, are, finally, of ecstatic origin, in the sense that they were borrowed from the narratives of shamans describing their journeys and adventures in the superhuman worlds."
 
Re: The Odyssey - question for all!

Thank you for mentioning this here, AI.

For a while now I was mulling over the problem of the status of the reciters of lyric poetry in ancient times and cultures and couldn't come to definite conclusions - but a shamanic background could well be the answer to this issue. I couldn't decide whether they had the status of druids, high priests, trouvères (troubadours), stand up comedians, or just teachers or mere memory artists.

Would we go for the shamanic linkage, that would tie in nicely with the problem we had earlier with the different text versions. The more ancient version would be closest to shamanic interpretations, while the later 'corrections' could be due to changed circumstances, i.e. the imperial context of Hellenistic culture and the library work on ancient texts in Alexandria for instance - giving them 'new' (politically correct) meanings for those days and ages. One can almost see a process of canonization and codification at work, leading to different forms of alienation from the real roots of the subject matter.

Similarly as has happened with Christianity and other 'ideologies'... fwiw.
 
Re: The Odyssey - question for all!

Yep. Couple of years ago at the local 'varsity. Classical Civilisations course. Enjoyed it a lot. :)
 
Re: The Odyssey - question for all!

The more I meditate on the ring composition structure of The Odyssey, The more I feel that some of the clues to understanding are to be found in The Iliad. The ancient audience would have been familiar with both, and as both are sacred texts, I would like to suggest that the teachings of one would support and possibly expand those of the other.

I have always been fascinated with the description of The Shield of Achilles. I believe that there is a sacred meaning embedded within it, Circular in shape as is the ring composition structure of The Odyssey, the symbols forged on the shield are those representing dualities, whereas the journeys taken by Odysseus seem to represent the process of transcendence over duality which, when overcome, results in the union of the male and female energies. This union is so powerful that it transcends even Time as Athena extends the night and holds back the dawn for Odysseus and Penelope as they join together for the first time in twenty years in their bed made from a living tree rooted deep into the ground.

What is the meaning of that tree? Does it in some way refer back to the tree in the Garden and offer a clue as to how to undo the Fall?

Both books taken together describe so many relationships between the male and the female - none of which - with the exception of that of Odysseus and Penelope - leads to the sacred union. In fact the abduction of Helen by Paris is the cause of the Trojan War.

Is the contrast between these two couples part of the teachings? The triumph over Time which Odysseus and Penelope achieve through their loyalty and faithfulness to one another seems in some sense a triumph over death whereas Paris' violation of the host-guest bond when he abducts the willing Helen while her husband, Menelaus, is out hunting causes unimaginable death, suffering, and destruction to the pious and highly civilized culture of Troy.

I have so many questions about how all the pieces fit together for this teaching.

And here is one more question: This is taken from the beginning of the description of the shield. Is it possible to locate the exact location of Troy by identifying where the location of the constellations were when the Iliad was written?

http://classics.mit.edu/Homer/iliad.18.xviii.html

First he shaped the shield so great and strong, adorning it all over and binding it round with a gleaming circuit in three layers; and the baldric was made of silver. He made the shield in five thicknesses, and with many a wonder did his cunning hand enrich it.

He wrought the earth, the heavens, and the sea; the moon also at her full and the untiring sun, with all the signs that glorify the face of heaven- the Pleiads, the Hyads, huge Orion, and the Bear, which men also call the Wain and which turns round ever in one place, facing. Orion, and alone never dips into the stream of Oceanus.

Here is the entire description of the shield:

When he had so said he left her and went to his bellows, turning them towards the fire and bidding them do their office. Twenty bellows blew upon the melting-pots, and they blew blasts of every kind, some fierce to help him when he had need of them, and others less strong as Vulcan willed it in the course of his work. He threw tough copper into the fire, and tin, with silver and gold; he set his great anvil on its block, and with one hand grasped his mighty hammer while he took the tongs in the other.

First he shaped the shield so great and strong, adorning it all over and binding it round with a gleaming circuit in three layers; and the baldric was made of silver. He made the shield in five thicknesses, and with many a wonder did his cunning hand enrich it.

He wrought the earth, the heavens, and the sea; the moon also at her full and the untiring sun, with all the signs that glorify the face of heaven- the Pleiads, the Hyads, huge Orion, and the Bear, which men also call the Wain and which turns round ever in one place, facing. Orion, and alone never dips into the stream of Oceanus.

He wrought also two cities, fair to see and busy with the hum of men. In the one were weddings and wedding-feasts, and they were going about the city with brides whom they were escorting by torchlight from their chambers. Loud rose the cry of Hymen, and the youths danced to the music of flute and lyre, while the women stood each at her house door to see them.

Meanwhile the people were gathered in assembly, for there was a quarrel, and two men were wrangling about the blood-money for a man who had been killed, the one saying before the people that he had paid damages in full, and the other that he had not been paid. Each was trying to make his own case good, and the people took sides, each man backing the side that he had taken; but the heralds kept them back, and the elders sate on their seats of stone in a solemn circle, holding the staves which the heralds had put into their hands. Then they rose and each in his turn gave judgement, and there were two talents laid down, to be given to him whose judgement should be deemed the fairest.

About the other city there lay encamped two hosts in gleaming armour, and they were divided whether to sack it, or to spare it and accept the half of what it contained. But the men of the city would not yet consent, and armed themselves for a surprise; their wives and little children kept guard upon the walls, and with them were the men who were past fighting through age; but the others sallied forth with Mars and Pallas Minerva at their head- both of them wrought in gold and clad in golden raiment, great and fair with their armour as befitting gods, while they that followed were smaller. When they reached the place where they would lay their ambush, it was on a riverbed to which live stock of all kinds would come from far and near to water; here, then, they lay concealed, clad in full armour. Some way off them there were two scouts who were on the look-out for the coming of sheep or cattle, which presently came, followed by two shepherds who were playing on their pipes, and had not so much as a thought of danger. When those who were in ambush saw this, they cut off the flocks and herds and killed the shepherds. Meanwhile the besiegers, when they heard much noise among the cattle as they sat in council, sprang to their horses, and made with all speed towards them; when they reached them they set battle in array by the banks of the river, and the hosts aimed their bronze-shod spears at one another. With them were Strife and Riot, and fell Fate who was dragging three men after her, one with a fresh wound, and the other unwounded, while the third was dead, and she was dragging him along by his heel: and her robe was bedrabbled in men's blood. They went in and out with one another and fought as though they were living people haling away one another's dead.

He wrought also a fair fallow field, large and thrice ploughed already. Many men were working at the plough within it, turning their oxen to and fro, furrow after furrow. Each time that they turned on reaching the headland a man would come up to them and give them a cup of wine, and they would go back to their furrows looking forward to the time when they should again reach the headland. The part that they had ploughed was dark behind them, so that the field, though it was of gold, still looked as if it were being ploughed- very curious to behold.

He wrought also a field of harvest corn, and the reapers were reaping with sharp sickles in their hands. Swathe after swathe fell to the ground in a straight line behind them, and the binders bound them in bands of twisted straw. There were three binders, and behind them there were boys who gathered the cut corn in armfuls and kept on bringing them to be bound: among them all the owner of the land stood by in silence and was glad. The servants were getting a meal ready under an oak, for they had sacrificed a great ox, and were busy cutting him up, while the women were making a porridge of much white barley for the labourers' dinner.

He wrought also a vineyard, golden and fair to see, and the vines were loaded with grapes. The bunches overhead were black, but the vines were trained on poles of silver. He ran a ditch of dark metal all round it, and fenced it with a fence of tin; there was only one path to it, and by this the vintagers went when they would gather the vintage. Youths and maidens all blithe and full of glee, carried the luscious fruit in plaited baskets; and with them there went a boy who made sweet music with his lyre, and sang the Linus-song with his clear boyish voice.

He wrought also a herd of homed cattle. He made the cows of gold and tin, and they lowed as they came full speed out of the yards to go and feed among the waving reeds that grow by the banks of the river. Along with the cattle there went four shepherds, all of them in gold, and their nine fleet dogs went with them. Two terrible lions had fastened on a bellowing bull that was with the foremost cows, and bellow as he might they haled him, while the dogs and men gave chase: the lions tore through the bull's thick hide and were gorging on his blood and bowels, but the herdsmen were afraid to do anything, and only hounded on their dogs; the dogs dared not fasten on the lions but stood by barking and keeping out of harm's way.

The god wrought also a pasture in a fair mountain dell, and large flock of sheep, with a homestead and huts, and sheltered sheepfolds.

Furthermore he wrought a green, like that which Daedalus once made in Cnossus for lovely Ariadne. Hereon there danced youths and maidens whom all would woo, with their hands on one another's wrists. The maidens wore robes of light linen, and the youths well woven shirts that were slightly oiled. The girls were crowned with garlands, while the young men had daggers of gold that hung by silver baldrics; sometimes they would dance deftly in a ring with merry twinkling feet, as it were a potter sitting at his work and making trial of his wheel to see whether it will run, and sometimes they would go all in line with one another, and much people was gathered joyously about the green. There was a bard also to sing to them and play his lyre, while two tumblers went about performing in the midst of them when the man struck up with his tune.

All round the outermost rim of the shield he set the mighty stream of the river Oceanus.

Then when he had fashioned the shield so great and strong, he made a breastplate also that shone brighter than fire. He made helmet, close fitting to the brow, and richly worked, with a golden plume overhanging it; and he made greaves also of beaten tin.

Lastly, when the famed lame god had made all the armour, he took it and set it before the mother of Achilles; whereon she darted like a falcon from the snowy summits of Olympus and bore away the gleaming armour from the house of Vulcan.
 
Re: The Odyssey - question for all!

Roland JP said:
I'm looking at the sword and the severing of the Medusa head on the Cassiopedia Page; symbolic for separating lies from truth from within and without: which brings me to this picture taken between 2000-2002: Its very elaborate for this to go unannounced given the topic and what this can exemplify?

That's really cool, you know as a young teenager 10 years or a little more ago I used to feel very identified with Medusa, I know that sounds messed up, but taking into consideration this thread and the essence of it, I feel the shoes fitted at the time, and also I feel I've come a long way since then and I'm happy I get to look back and understand my pathway.
 
Re: The Odyssey - question for all!

That's really cool, you know as a young teenager 10 years or a little more ago I used to feel very identified with Medusa, I know that sounds messed up, but taking into consideration this thread and the essence of it, I feel the shoes fitted at the time, and also I feel I've come a long way since then and I'm happy I get to look back and understand my pathway.

No it dosen't sound messed up, we all have identified with it in one way or another... ;)
 
Re: The Odyssey - question for all!

Found this in Transcripts of Gurdjieff's Meetings 1941-1946. Puts a new spin on theoxeny for me:

Simone: I feel that I must introduce in my task, in my work, a person close to me, but what adds to the difficulty is that I feel in this person weaknesses similar to my own, and my weaknesses reinforce hers and her weaknesses reinforce mine. I don't know how to defend myself against this and what attitude to take.

Gurdjieff: You must pay no attention to the exterior. This is exterior. You must only know your task and do it interiorly. The other person, consciously or not, plays her role, acts her character. You do not know her, you do not know who she is, whether it is Moses, or some other person. It is not important. What is important for you is your inner task.

It's easy to get caught up and identified when interacting with others. Someone says something we don't like and we take offense; they get angry with us and we get hurt and lash out with covert or passive aggression; we expect people to treat us a certain way, consider us more. All the while we do not consider them. In short, we take ourselves very seriously and our egoism runs the show. But when we follow Gurdjieff's advice, and separate the inner from the outer, we can learn to stop identifying. Every person is simply playing their role. If you're acting in a play, you may be in a scene where the other actor's character is yelling at you, annoying you, acting like an insolent child, etc., but do you take offense? No, you know it's part of the script and you play your part, with some element of detachment. There is a distance between what you really feel and what you do 'exteriorly'. This practice and awareness of 'theoxeny' seems to me to be a great way to promote both self-remembering and external consideration, in short, hospitality.
 
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