The Vegetarian Myth

[RyanX]

Re: The Vegetarian Stance

he had been eating 2 to 3 pounds of raw bok choy daily for several months in the hope that it would help control her diabetes, and the bok choy had poisoned her thyroid.[/b] In addition to coma, her symptoms included low body temperature (36 C), a shrunken thyroid, dry skin and coarse hair. Her life was saved by high doses of intravenous thyroid hormone, but she still needed four weeks in the hospital before she could be moved to a nursing facility.

Remarkably, but not surprisingly in light of how little publicity is given to the dangers of plant toxins, her family wanted to keep feeding her raw bok choy in the hospital! [2]

Yikes!

That reminds me of the spinach scare a few years back where there was some hysteria over e-coli contamination in the spinach. It seemed odd to me that bacteria could be the sole cause of sickness in these cases. It probably tipped the scales, but perhaps there were other plant toxins that contributed to the weakened immunity of the people who got sick?

 

[Gaby]

Re: The Vegetarian Stance

That reminds me of the spinach scare a few years back where there was some hysteria over e-coli contamination in the spinach. It seemed odd to me that bacteria could be the sole cause of sickness in these cases. It probably tipped the scales, but perhaps there were other plant toxins that contributed to the weakened immunity of the people who got sick?

Oh yeah. We talked about spinach a little while ago. Here it is:

http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=18824.msg179170#msg179170

OXALATES IN FOOD

People who are vegetarians really have to be aware of all the oxalates they take in. The biggest culprit for all vegetarians is soy protein, and the second is spinach. Virtually everybody who eats a large spinach salad every day is going to succumb to kidney stones. I’ve tested them over and over again and the people who have the highest oxalate values invariably tell me that a cornerstone of their daily diet is a large spinach salad. If they add nuts to their salad and textured soy protein, both of which are very high in oxalates, you’ve got a cocktail made to produce kidney stones. Spinach is so high I would not recommend eating it even cooked, as a main course. Lettuces, by the way, are very low in oxalates. The biggest problem vegetarians face is eating a diet high in soy protein and spinach.

That thread (The Role of Oxalates in Autism and Chronic Disorders) is very interesting.

 

[Mr. Premise]

Re: The Vegetarian Stance

I was a vegan for about a decade and for me it was primarily about health. I tried it as an experiment and I felt WAY better and hardly ever got sick. Probably it had a lot to do with quitting dairy products, because I didn't feel as good when I was just a plain vegetarian who ate dairy. I also became a vegan to reduce the consumption of toxins, which can build up in the fatty tissues of animals. But now we have techniques for detoxing, so that is less of a concern.

The one good argument I had for the practical morality of vegetarianism is that it consumes much less resources than meat growing which is consuming grasslands and energy at a huge rate. That is true, but there is probably no good solution as far as resources go with today's technology for 7 billion people, though, any way you slice it. The moral aspect of vegetarianism did appeal to me too, since factory livestock farming does cause a lot of suffering, but being a part of this group lessened that concern for me gradually over the years, but I do try to buy the free-range, organic meats.

I am blood type A pos so that diet worked well for me. And when I quit wheat over a year ago and started taking tons of supplements, I felt even way more better. That being said, since I keep chickens, I have been having eggs for the past 5 years or so. And I always thought of veganism as a luxury of being able to buy fresh produce of many kinds 12 months out of the year and lots of supplements as well.

I have always loved hippie vegetarian food, even when I ate meat. So cutting way back on the brown rice was hard, I love the stuff, as was quitting tofu, believe it or not. I still have rice, but less often, and I soak it for 24 hours with some of the water from previous soakings to start germination and to get rid of the phytic acid. Doing that, I haven't had any problems.

I have been eating lots of meat the last couple of months as an experiment in increasing anti-inflammation. I have been trying the paleolithic diet and find that, at first it was fun to eat the bacon and beef I haven't had for years (and it was easier to order off of restaurant menus when I travel) but that I tend to overeat the high animal and saturated fat foods and feel somewhat full/too full afterwards. I think it is because when I was a vegan I could eat tons of that kind food and digest it easily and not gain weight. I just need to adjust and eat more vegetables and less bacon and coconut milk chocolates in the morning. Since I am used to eating larger volumes, when the mix is higher in fat, it is harder to digest. But it has been a blast eating bacon guilt-free.

But I have lost a few pounds on this paleolithic diet (and my kids are thrilled that I am eating meat again, they always did). I tell them that it is only healthier if they quit dairy and wheat, but they aren't doing that (nor does my wife). I have some stiffness in my knee which I can use as a gauge of inflammation because other than that, I don't have bad reactions when I go off the diet. I have the quiet cardiovascular effects of inflammation to worry about and I am taking the leap of faith that saturated animal fats is good for me because it goes against a lifetime of programming. I have a family history of heart disease and my mom had Alzheimer's so that is my motivation.

I will say this, though, all this meat eating is WAY more expensive... beans and rice are very cheap!

 

[D Rusak]

Re: The Vegetarian Stance

I think going through a vegetarian, then vegan phase was good for me- it did get me to slowly stop eating the processed junk my family was eating in lieu of more veggies. At some point I stopped dairy and that really was pretty huge for me, I doubt I would have come to that such a long time ago if I wasn't vegetarian already first. I also learned to eat many more cuisines and foods, which has helped my cooking and become a good hobby for me. It's even helped me socially (everyone loves a decent cook!). As I mentioned in another thread though I've been feeling the need to eat meat again. It's been a slow process for me over the course of the last 10 months or so but I think it's helping restore balance.

I recall a few things on that list of "reasons" to become vegetarian were true for me, but only as justifying factors after I made the decision. Mostly I just didn't "feel" like eating meat anymore, it was too heavy or something, I lost the taste for it. Most vegetarians I know though are vegetarian for quite a few of these reasons. I agree with Mr Premise though, it is much more expensive to eat good quality meat! It's been difficult as I have lost reliable income in a recent move (which, paradoxically, has made it psychologically easier to "switch" back since I didn't have to worry about people giving me a hard time for not eating meat anymore). It really is an image thing, and often self-importance, I think in many cases. Eating meat again really has been one of the hard things for me to do and the more time goes by, the more I see how this is involved with several programs in me. I have to remind myself that I can't expect everything to change overnight, slow progress is better than none.

Preparing cautionary foods like rice/beans also takes a longer time when one is eating healthier according to the diet (ie, proper soaking, etc). I seem to do okay with a limited amount of rice and certain beans, I am also A blood type. But now that I am slowly starting to eat meat, it's possible to either reduce cooking times again or do easy things like throwing something in the oven and baking it, instead of making sure to soak stuff the day before, constantly monitoring the cooking on the stove so things don't stick or burn, etc. So I'm also starting to get excited bit by bit here.

Mr Premise, being that you are also A blood type, is it possible that some meats just don't work as well for you and that could be a contributing factor for poorer digestion? Pork has always been really weird for me. I never liked it growing up either, I totally loathed it. Turkey has been the best for me thus far, some chicken (I've been liking the darker meat better which is interesting, I always liked white meat growing up), and certain seafood (occasional mild white fish; salmon makes me feel good though I don't love the taste; shrimp; scallops). Beef has not been so good and I had lamb once, it was not as bad as beef or pork for me but I felt a little weird still after eating it. I'm starting to figure out where the farmer's markets are around my new city and hope to try some wild game meats, which I think probably would be cheaper than a gourmet grocer. This is what's been working well for me, anyway, as I've been transitioning.

 

[SeekinTruth]

Re: The Vegetarian Stance

Ahh, OK, so the article referred to was Burying the Vegetarian Hypothesis http://www.sott.net/articles/show/218541-Burying-The-Vegetarian-Hypothesis

The reason I though it was The Naive Vegetarian is because of the comment exchange there between me and Bholanath and I hadn't read Vegetarian Hypothesis because I read it in Dot Connector -- actually I hadn't noticed it on SOTT for some reason.

What astonishes me is the particular nastiness that comes out of nowhere. There are many psychological dynamics that just feel "off." Bholanath having followed these sites for 10 years is still completely clueless as to his own thinking and how he thinks his thought processes are not only reliably and his own -- in fact he is absolutely adamant about this -- but also morally and intellectually superior. So why does he get any of his information from SOTT, I wonder. And talk about projecting and black and white thinking. What I noticed in his first post and decided to reply was that he was just trying to win an argument by using debating techniques, avoiding the most crucial parts of the article -- and in that case the author is very unlikely to respond, so with whom is he arguing? It's basically a guarantee that he'll win the argument.

The level of self-importance and selecting what he argues with and steadfastly avoiding everything else, right from the first post, just escalates to the point where you gotta wonder how invested you must be in your beliefs to not be open to ANY new data. Then out of nowhere an emotional outburst of anger, hate and loathing, attacking Laura, her "group think" followers, the C's, etc. The reason I replied to bholanath's comment was because I thought the article covered some really important points in a very clear way. And also I had seen bholanath post on the forum for years so I figured his selecting what to respond to, dodging, and missing the crux of the matter and mixing in irrelevant arguments was a clear sign of identification with his beliefs and wanted to point that out.

He ends up writing, "Facts and data and the scientific method will take you to 'The Truth'? Good luck with that." Huh??? If that doesn't have a chance of getting us closer to truth, what, I wonder would? And again being oh so selective when he gives examples of the "scientific mind." There really IS no point discussing anything with people like this, it's for others that have some chance of learning something new that we should keep giving the truth to these well-packaged lies.

 

[Mr. Premise]

Re: The Vegetarian Stance

Mr Premise, being that you are also A blood type, is it possible that some meats just don't work as well for you and that could be a contributing factor for poorer digestion? Pork has always been really weird for me. I never liked it growing up either, I totally loathed it. Turkey has been the best for me thus far, some chicken (I've been liking the darker meat better which is interesting, I always liked white meat growing up), and certain seafood (occasional mild white fish; salmon makes me feel good though I don't love the taste; shrimp; scallops). Beef has not been so good and I had lamb once, it was not as bad as beef or pork for me but I felt a little weird still after eating it. I'm starting to figure out where the farmer's markets are around my new city and hope to try some wild game meats, which I think probably would be cheaper than a gourmet grocer. This is what's been working well for me, anyway, as I've been transitioning.

Could be, but I really think it is just the quantity of fat that is at issue. If I keep to 2 or 3 pieces of bacon, no problem, but 6 or 7, different story. Then add to it a couple of pieces of coconut oil chocolateshttp://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=20416.0...

And I got the same feeling eating too much vegan food that had too much olive oil in it. As I get older I can't process large amounts of fat as well, I guess. Pork, which is now bred to be low fat, doesn't cause me problems and beef is fine. So I just have to exercise self control after being used to eating as much volume of vegan stuff as I wanted.

 

[agni]

Re: The Vegetarian Stance

I've been a vegetarian for about a year or something. Yes, it was emotional choice, unconscious expunging of past hurt, oath not to hurt another living flash. Another emotional aspect was seeing meat as a product of dead corpse, which contributed to emotional disgust. Then I've started to find out that plants are capable of feeling too. Only difference, one can't see pain of a plant with a naked eye, as in case with animals. Thus, pain of plants and vegetables is easier to ignore.

Eventually, I've realized I am damned corpse/flash eating creature no matter what. So now I am disgusted with eating corpse's meat, and disturbed by munching on plants while they are still alive...

From ethical standpoint, it seems eating "dead" meat seems more humane, in contrast to eating "still breathing" plants alive. How is that for logic ? :p

 

[HifromGrace]

Re: The Vegetarian Stance

If the body is in a balance, it knows exactly what kind of food needs. Who would better know than the body/person? Someone else? No. It is not the knowledge talking saying that vegetarians have “a deep psychological problem”. It is a deep misunderstanding of different needs of different people; it is a matter of discrimination. Being a vegetarian or not, all people need sources of energy for living. Physical body needs physical food sources, astral/eteric body needs fine energy food and higher levels of a person, if developed, need even more sophisticated food source.

In the first sentence bolded, I suppose that "if" would be the operative word. If the body is not in balance, but the person believes it is so then they might not know better. They would need to test foods individually in order to find out as opposed to cutting out an entire group of foods. If a person is a vegetarian and yet is consuming gluten, sugar, dairy, corn and soy which have been shown to be harmful to most if not all humans, their body is not in balance. In short, our individual thoughts regarding anything cannot be trusted. While it is important for each person to take responsibility for their own health, to base a decision on whether to eat something or not eat something simply because it makes us feel like a good person is not in our best interests nor in the best interests of any other being (animal or otherwise) in the long run. It is self serving. It is in this context which we are speaking.

I'd have to agree with truth seeker here.

To speak of food "needs", somehow my mind jumps back to the original quote that started this thread. It seems likely to me that diets become an emotional fulfillment or reenactment of sorts. Most people do not eat to be healthy, productive, evolving human beings -- it is quite the opposite from what I've observed. So, you're right that everybody has different needs, but typically this ends up being different needs for emotional calming and addiction. On that note, there is a quote that I'm rather fond of by Margaret Mead:

"It is easier to change a man's religion than to change his diet."

So when it comes to 'needs', consider the comparison to religion and the need that it fulfills for most people. What does that tell us?

Like truth seeker said, one can't possibly know what foods are "good" for us (good as defined as life restoring rather than life-taking). Our brains just aren't set up that way. We judge foods on taste, texture, visual appeal, and lastly the brain chemical spikes that come from these foods. We live in a haze of sluggishness and chronic health problems that we've told ourselves are "normal". How is anybody able to form an objective opinion of their real dietary needs in a state like this? Like any addiction it takes outside intervention and a group effort, I think.

I tried the vegetarian diet years ago and I haven't gone back since. I made all the same rationales that everybody has different needs and tastes, and that one can survive off of fruits, veggies and grains alone. I suspect I'm still recovering from this episode in my life. There's no way I would recommend it to anybody else. That diet isn't designed for "humans", OSIT.

GREAT THREAD! The above quotes clearly spelled out the topics I was initially going to ramble on about!

I stopped being a vegetarian three months ago, after being one for 20.

20 years is a lonnggg time, my entire adult life AND identity, and really a sign of devotion to an ideal. I practiced vegetarianism with gusto, never snitched once, and can identify with all the rationalizations that go along with what is ultimately a need to feel superior and “spiritual.” It was intrinsically tied to my sense of spirituality actually. I look at it now as highly unproductive, misplaced idealism (ehem, PROGRAM handed to me on a silver platter!).

This lifestyle went hand in hand with rationalizing being a druggie for over 20 years too. Although I was able to turn my back on that subculture/cult a year earlier than the vegetarian thing. Interestingly enough, nearly all of my stoner friends abandoned our relationship when I decided to try something different (hello cult!), additionally, 80% of them were vegetarians. Seems like those two subcultures are interwoven as socially acceptable ways of being self-satisfied as being counter-culture-lite. Although, from what aaron r was talking about, no one but me had a prior history of reading that New Age channeling disinformation mumbo jumbo (not that I deny aaron r’s point, I whole heartedly agree that it lends to the body of their argument. Incidentally, Channel Watch was the second thing that I got way into on this forum years ago! It was music to my ears!).

I had to have hypnosis to be able to take my first bite of meat, even though rationally, I knew I had to expand my diet, that’s how deep rooted the brainwashing was. Now eating meat, I never ever have that nagging sense of hunger and agitation that I didn’t even know I had compromised myself with. What’s interesting to me, is that I’m a big fan of Metabolic Typing, and knew that I had to eat tons of protein & fats to keep me centered and satisfied, but in spite of my monumental efforts, it didn’t satisfy my body to be a vegetarian.

A turning point, as others have mentioned, is that being a vegetarian backs you into a corner of eating an inordinate amount of common allergents, and the health-fanatic in me trumped over ideology.


With all my food escapades over the years, I really identify with what D Rusak said about his/her diet adventures being stepping stones for a gradual acclamation to being open for dietary change. My heart empathically goes out to the folks on this forum who are still in the “cookie binging, drive-thru junkie, meal out of a box” stage of diet awareness. Food is Culture; Culture = Media.

Been there, done that. I’m 40 and it’s taken me this long to undo those cultural influences, and that’s with being health conscious with tenacious inquisitiveness for 30 of those years – and I can’t imagine what it’s like for someone just starting out, blind sighted about how food controls them at age 40, 50, etc., it’s such a long haul to go from “food from a box” to fermenting with glee. I have nothing but compassion for those starting out on this journey.

"It is easier to change a man's religion than to change his diet."

 

[Pierre]

Re: The Vegetarian Stance

20 years is a lonnggg time, my entire adult life AND identity, and really a sign of devotion to an ideal. I practiced vegetarianism with gusto, never snitched once, and can identify with all the rationalizations that go along with what is ultimately a need to feel superior and “spiritual.” It was intrinsically tied to my sense of spirituality actually.

Indeed! Sometimes the debate gets hot because it touches a very sacred cow which is the foundation (consciously or not) of a good share of self-importance, sense of spirituality and superiority complex.

I've been vegetarian for a while too. I started in 1998. The official reason was "animal compassion" as we call it. And at the time I really believed it was the real reason. Who would not feel bad when seeing what happens in slaughterhouses?

So from 1998 to 2009, I ate absolutely no meat and my whole diet was organic. I was doing sports, sleeping well, avoiding chemicals. Then in summer 2009, I
was diagnosed with a grade III brain cancer.

Well the diet might not have been the only cause but it was certainly one of them.

The problem is some vegetarians are aware enough to realize modern diet is bad so they make a change but it's a wrong change and they end up eliminating healthy food and sometimes eating more unhealthy food. That was my case, eating tons of gluten, soy, dairy and sugar.

Anyhow, this cancer forced me to think about its causes. Obviously something was really wrong: gluten, casein, lectins and their capacity to cross the blood brain barrier and their neurotoxicity.

Since then I'm doing the Paleodiet. One year and half later I'm still alive (death rate is 60% for this kind of cancer), I didn't get anymore tumour (relapse rate is 80%) without going through any radiotherapy or chemotherapy. I don't take any drug, energy level and motricity is almost totally back.

About the ethical dimension, as others said: in order to live we have to kill. Vegetarian don't eat animal life forms but they eat vegetal life forms.

They give more importance to animal life than to vegetal life maybe because of an anthropocentric vision of the world: animals look like human more than vegetables do, therefore they deserve more respect. Though lettuces, cows, apples or chickens are all part of the creation, they all are living entities.

What is the really reason for being a vegetarian? I can't speak for others but being vegetarian made me feel special. I held secretly this kind of contempt for meat-eaters who were spiritually so undeveloped. I felt superior, enlightened.

Ironically, these feelings of contempt and superiority are certainly the proof of undeveloped spirituality and overdeveloped ego! Just observe how aggressive some vegetarian become when their sacred cow is threatened, such reactions don't seem highly spiritual

Here is something ironic (and slightly off topic) that I noticed amongst some vegetarian friends: they were also actively pushing the save the planet thing. They were the first ones to ask for and use bioethanol. But bioethanol is made of plants that therefore can't be used for human consumption.

You have third world countries that use a fair share of their farming production to produce bio ethanol while locals are literally starving. So you have rich Westerners who, to fulfill their illusion that they help the planet are in fact helping the starvation of people.

Almost as if animal life (who can't be eaten because of compassion) has more value than human life (who can starve to produce fuel) :(

 

[Mrs.Tigersoap]

Re: The Vegetarian Stance

It's interesting to see that many of us used to be vegetarians! We tried it, saw what it did to us and we moved on. I was a vegetarian for 16 years. My first motivation was animal compassion, just as Belibaste. At first, I was not concerned with health to be honest. Seeing the way animals were treated (I happened to have several butchers and slaughterers in my family and entourage at the time) and the inhumane condition in which they were killed was something I did not want to be a part of. I was not buying products that were tested on animals and there I was, eating them! I felt like a hypocrite.

I think that there is also a bit of black and white thinking here, in that most morally induced vegetarians will only consider the big companies of meat industry and the appalling conditions in which they raise animals, also mentioned in SAO`s quote, but will often completely neglect their local organic meat producers who provide their animals a much greater quality of life, and even deaths.

At the time, I could not understand how a farmer could love an animal and then kill it to eat it. It was like killing your dog and eating it. So local organic meat producers (and they were rare in my region anyway) were also a no-no. Maybe that's why some vegetarians neglect that aspect?

I'm probably one the few people who actually put on weight while being vegetarian (a lot of them usually look very emaciated), probably from the dairy, gluten and sugar. I wanted to go gluten/dairy free and realized that I could not survive on beans, lentils and rice. I was never a great fan of soy, so I that was not a big problem. It took a long time for me to make the jump. The guilt was terrible. That, and letting go of my pride of being a vegetarian! Belibaste was talking about feeling special. I personally was hiding it as much as possible (in my experience, people tend to think you're in a cult if you're vegetarian or they just make fun of you at every opportunity), but I did feel like I was right and they were wrong.

I eventually went to see a Chinese medicine doctor who told me flat out that I needed to start eating meat again.

I wonder if some people have had some deep wounding and attempt to fix the past because they were hurt so badly - they don't want to be responsible for hurting anyone the way they've been hurt?

I once went to an Asian nutritionist and she was irrate, asking how I dared refusing meat while some people were starving! She asked me if I had pets as a child, so I told her about my dogs and goat. When we moved from our big house to a small one, my mother 'gave them away' (to this day, I don't know what happened to them). She then told me that being a vegetarian would not bring back my dogs and goat and that I should stop punishing myself. At the time, that woman just seemed crazy to me. Now, not so much...

 

[anart]

Re: The Vegetarian Stance

It's interesting to see that many of us used to be vegetarians!
...
I'm probably one the few people who actually put on weight while being vegetarian

Add me to the list! I was also up to 50 pounds heavier on the vegetarian diet, than on the current diet.

I can also attest to the fact that it had nothing at all to do with health for me. I would even tell people that. I was a vegetarian for over 20 years and ate loads of cheetos, little debbie cakes, soy and diet mountain dew for most of that time. I just didn't like the 'idea' of eating animals, it kind of made me nauseated. Plus, red meat literally did make me nauseated (I'm blood type AB), so I went from that experience, removed red meat and then eventually eliminated all animals, and ended up with loads of health problems, resulting in several major surgeries!

As much as I still hate the idea of having to kill to survive (which is really what it comes down to for me), I do know without question that my body is much healthier since I've added bacon, pork chops and fish to my diet - not to mention removing all dairy and gluten. There is absolutely no comparison, it's like living in a different body!

Regarding the psychological aspects, it very well could be due to a desire to 'protect' animals who are helpless since I was never protected when I was helpless. It's certainly worth considering. I never felt superior to others, though, and was never bothered by others eating meat in my presence nor did I ever try to convince anyone they should stop eating meat. I just silently harmed my body for over twenty years, thinking that at least I wasn't contributing to the suffering of animals - and I never thought twice about plants! Interesting discussion!

 

[HifromGrace]

Re: The Vegetarian Stance


Belibaste – CONGRATULATIONS !!!!!!!!!

Thanks for sharing your personal story, I appreciated that. You also bring up many salient points.

I wonder cancers like yours happen more often than we hear about… something else I was thinking about in regards to this topic, is about this detox pathways chart I saw years ago. It pointed out the nutrients and amino acids necessary for both stages – as a vegetarian, it was glaringly obvious that I was not meeting the base nutrients in either stage (unless I ate pumpkin seeds by the pound on a daily basis – you’d think that woulda scared me straight!?); thus I was never detoxing, no matter how clean I ate, etc. [I can’t find the doc on the web right now to share unfortunately. Maybe it was in the two above links? My bad if it was, I started with reading the comments and it just made my ears bleed listening to the bait and rants – makes this thread all the more refreshing!]

Anart, I almost peed myself when I read this, “I was a vegetarian for over 20 years and ate loads of cheetos, little debbie cakes, soy and diet mountain dew for most of that time.” TRUE THAT! What on earth were we thinking!!! I marvel that I wasn’t more ill, or ended up with something critical like Belibaste, I practically have survivor’s guilt thinking about all that now….

And Mrs. Tigersoap, “She then told me that being a vegetarian would not bring back my dogs and goat and that I should stop punishing myself. At the time, that woman just seemed crazy to me. Now, not so much...” Yeah, I had a similar experience in my youth – the pet geese & chickens kept magically breaking a leg when I’d visit busha. Plus I walked in on my parents butchering all my pet rabbits when I was 7 – I wish they were upfront about the whole thing, I would not have been as traumatized by the experience. Amazing insight from your nutritionalist – funny about eating your words about thinking she was crazy.

Another addendum, in respect to framing the whole “who/what gets harmed in the process of eating” argument. My therapist had been a vegetarian for 30 years, so she was a wellspring of compassion and insights. She re-framed the whole argument for me, and pointed out that there is no case for morals here. We SHARE everything on earth – from all our bodies to every molecule of air – we are interconnected and have to share it all, it’s the nature of existence here: sharing. This made me at peace with my decision.

 

[truth seeker]

Re: The Vegetarian Stance

First of all, Apologies SeekInTruth and all for not initially posting the link to the article.

Almost as if animal life (who can't be eaten because of compassion) has more value than human life (who can starve to produce fuel)

Absolutely! This is one conclusion that I was led to when thinking further about this issue.

Seamas recently made a connection to certain vegetarian stances with this c's transcript:

Quote from: Session 30 May 2009
Q: (L) {First question} L*** A*** just had to have her two old sick doggies put down yesterday partly so she could start her new life, but also because there is simply no other choice considering the situation. {Note: The individual is moving to a new city where she has an offer to live and work, and the apartment does not accept dogs. Both of them were quite old and on various meds so not good candidates for adoption.} She's very upset and missing them. Is there anything I can say or anything you can say to give her any kind of pointer as to whether or not this was the right thing to do?

A: Right 5D for pets

Q: (L) Okay. Is there any particular goal for her to focus on at the present time?

A: Getting well will be facilitated by focusing on others as the reason to get better. Giving her life to dogs didn't give much to the world nor did it bring much return except subjective illusion. As Gurdjieff said, you get back what you give to life.

Q: (L) Well, for a long time she didn't have anything except the dogs, and now the dogs are gone. I think she's feeling pretty bereft. And you're saying the doggies went to doggie 5D so to speak...

A: One day she will have a dog that will return the favors.

Q: (L) She made the remark that since her dogs were old and sick and on medication, and she was sick and on medication, that maybe she wasn't worth keeping alive either.

A: Apples and oranges. Dogs are subjective and personal and a human can be objective in terms of what can be given to others.

Q: (L) So you're saying that keeping a dog alive {by extraordinary means} is just keeping alive something that's subjective and personal to you, while a human can be kept alive and give a great deal that's objectively beneficial to other people {depending on the individual, of course}. Is that it?

A: Yes

In order for us to have the stamina to affect the necessary changes required to give birth to a new world, we need to do everything possible to support that. If we are not fully in our right minds, we simply cannot help others regardless of what incarnation or density they are in. When we choose to act in out own best interests, we serve all.

The problem is some vegetarians are aware enough to realize modern diet is bad so they make a change but it's a wrong change and they end up eliminating healthy food and sometimes eating more unhealthy food. That was my case, eating tons of gluten, soy, dairy and sugar.

Same here. What I also find interesting is that when the concept of removing the "foods" mentioned above comes up, how some still feel the need to defend their choice. This can happen even without any mention of incorporating meat into the diet! This aspect in particular leaves me scratching my head. Perhaps some feel that they have given up enough things already and don't want to deprive themselves further?

 

[shijing]

Re: The Vegetarian Stance

They give more importance to animal life than to vegetal life maybe because of an anthropocentric vision of the world: animals look like human more than vegetables do, therefore they deserve more respect. Though lettuces, cows, apples or chickens are all part of the creation, they all are living entities.

I find this to be the case amongst all of the vegetarians I know. I have one friend who was a longtime vegetarian, but who recently included fish in his diet to get more protein -- he now calls himself a "fishetarian". There does seem to be this kind of ingrained anthropocentric hierarchy that goes: fruit/seeds > plants > (insects) > fish > fowl > other mammals, where people feel increased guilt pangs as they move from the left to the right end. Meat-wise, it's interesting that all of the white meat is on the left side, whereas red meat is located at the far right -- so there might still be a health correlation there.

 

[Richs]

Re: The Vegetarian Stance

Eventually, I've realized I am damned corpse/flash eating creature no matter what. So now I am disgusted with eating corpse's meat, and disturbed by munching on plants while they are still alive...

That doesn't seem to leave very much in the way of nutritional options!

From ethical standpoint, it seems eating "dead" meat seems more humane, in contrast to eating "still breathing" plants alive. How is that for logic ? :p

I think it is just more 'logical' to realize we are in bodies which are designed to be omnivorous in this reality and which require certain nutrients which can, for the most part, only be had by using a combination of both animal and plant sources. Since we are here, and our bodies require these things, it might be better to just accept that this is the current circumstance, and that this is the way reality works for us at present without bemoaning the fate of the plants and animals we consume for our existence. I do think that we should be 'grateful' for the nutrition these food sources provide for us, even though that is apparently what is their function and reason for being here.

Perhaps 'one day' we will have no need for this type of consumption, but for now we appear to just have to live with the situation as is.