The Vegetarian Myth

anart

The Living Force
Re: The Vegetarian Stance

svjetlonosa said:
I am afraid anart that your personal disagreement with my personal choices colored your vision.
I have no personal disagreement with you, svjetlonosa - I am merely pointing out the facts - there is nothing personal about this at all. I am not the least bit emotional about it, though your emotions have now created a theory that my 'vision is colored'. Do you see how that has happened? How your own emotional investment is twisting everything in your mind?

s said:
I am accusing someone of something?! Without experimenting to find out?! What are you talking about?
I am unconformtable only with close-minded uniformed approach. Learning lessons takes times. Everyone has own path and speed in that process. You should respect other people's choices regardless if they are good or not for them from your point of view.
There is no close-minded, uniformed approach other than your own in this situation. You, again, are accusing others of that which you are doing. There is really no reason at all to be so emotional about this topic! We are dealing with scientific research and real-time experimentation and presenting facts. That is all. If you could possibly remove your emotions from the equation, you might be able to see that and actually benefit.
 

svjetlonosa

Padawan Learner
Re: The Vegetarian Stance

anart said:
svjetlonosa said:
I am afraid anart that your personal disagreement with my personal choices colored your vision.
I have no personal disagreement with you, svjetlonosa - I am merely pointing out the facts - there is nothing personal about this at all. I am not the least bit emotional about it, though your emotions have now created a theory that my 'vision is colored'. Do you see how that has happened? How your own emotional investment is twisting everything in your mind?

s said:
I am accusing someone of something?! Without experimenting to find out?! What are you talking about?
I am unconformtable only with close-minded uniformed approach. Learning lessons takes times. Everyone has own path and speed in that process. You should respect other people's choices regardless if they are good or not for them from your point of view.
There is no close-minded, uniformed approach other than your own in this situation. You, again, are accusing others of that which you are doing. There is really no reason at all to be so emotional about this topic! We are dealing with scientific research and real-time experimentation and presenting facts. That is all. If you could possibly remove your emotions from the equation, you might be able to see that and actually benefit.
It seems to me that I used a word you are not familiar with: a respect of other people choices.
 

ScioAgapeOmnis

The Living Force
Re: The Vegetarian Stance

Anyone can do what they want, but others aren't obliged to agree that it's the healthiest option. If someone eats mud, for example, it doesn't make it a good idea, and that's the point of this discussion - to determine what is healthy and what isn't, regardless of someone's subjective reasons for doing something, like eating mud.

If by 'respecting' your choice you mean that others should encourage it and agree with you, then you're mistaken as it's not the same thing.
 

agni

Dagobah Resident
Re: The Vegetarian Stance

svjetlonosa said:
It seems to me that I used a word you are not familiar with: a respect of other people choices.
Svjetlonosa, to begin with, respect is not something you can demand.

At second, please be so kind to point out where anart shows disrespect of your personal choices ?
 

Laura

Administrator
Administrator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
Re: The Vegetarian Stance

agni said:
svjetlonosa said:
It seems to me that I used a word you are not familiar with: a respect of other people choices.
Svjetlonosa, to begin with, respect is not something you can demand.

At second, please be so kind to point out where anart shows disrespect of your personal choices ?
Svjetlonosa's complete lack of respect for this forum and its hard-working moderators - who don't need to put up with egotistical insults - has resulted in her banning. I spent some time earlier today reading every post she's ever written on this forum and, frankly, I don't see any real contribution nor do I see any desire to learn anything. Her cup is quite full and it was simply a lot of noise. Anart shouldn't have to put up with that, nor should any of the moderators.
 
G

Gertrudes

Guest
Re: The Vegetarian Stance

svjetlonosa said:
It seems to me that I used a word you are not familiar with: a respect of other people choices.
Svjetlonosa, as others have pointed out, this isn't a discussion on people's choices. It is a discussion on how to function optimally healthwise, which is very different from one's, more often then not, subjective and highly biased choices. Choices can easily be made out of ignorance for lack of data and experimentation, since we are discussing and trying to find out what actually works, and what not, they can't really be part of the equation.

The closest this discussion comes to people's choices, is how they can actually affect one's health.

It is also a discussion on how some people can react when having those choices challenged, as in the example of vegetarianism. Perhaps this is happening with you as well?


Added: I must have hitted post at the same time as Laura. Just read that Svjetlonosa was banned.
 

SeekinTruth

Ambassador
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FOTCM Member
Re: The Vegetarian Stance

It's very interesting that some people had seen animals being butchered and this led to not being able to bring themselves to eat meat. I had a somewhat similar experience when I was around four years old. My father took my brother and me fishing with some of his coworkers. On the way to the pond, we were walking through some woods and couple of the coworkers had hunting guns apparently and they shot at some fowl. The really loud noise of the gun and the idea that they wanted to kill these birds made me and my brother start crying.

It was really traumatic and I even felt repulsed by the idea of fishing because of it. Although, I've never been a vegetarian, I can see how seeing animals being killed at a young age can have a very traumatic and long lasting affect on people.

And for the personal choices issue, there's a repeating pattern of accusing others of what the person who's insisting on their choice being right is doing. Bholanath does this throughout his comments to the Naive Vegetarian article.

Another thing I remembered is that the Yoga teacher had a young assistant who had also become a vegetarian and he also displayed this sense of superiority and self-satisfaction. They were both adamant that if anyone wanted to be healthy, they had to become vegetarian. :rolleyes: And both were very condescending and full of derision toward the general Armenian population who are big meat eaters, but ironically also big bread eaters so their health problems can be blamed on eating meat while the large amount of bread and pastries will be seen as harmless.

Both were also very anti-smoking. And as they pressed me about why I smoke I just gave them some facts about nicotine and that it helps me concentrate and think straight. They looked at me like I had two heads. A friend of mine who had told me about this teacher and these upcoming classes, who also smokes by the way, said they're not going to convince me about not smoking so they dropped it. Funny thing is this friend is worried about his own smoking and believes it's really bad for him. Meanwhile he has a serious drinking problem. After about two drinks he, becomes very drunk and if he has a third, he passes out. But he has very strong cravings. I've told him several times to forget worrying about his smoking and make sure he never touches another drop of alcohol. But he still worries about his "smoking problem."

And another interesting thing I observed was that the Yoga teacher took shots at Hari Krishnas as something beneath contempt. And that other "guru" who's been living in Paris just happens to be a Hari Krishna convert.

All things considered, sure seems convincing that Lizzies don't like to eat meat eating smokers. :lol:
 

Laura

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FOTCM Member
Re: The Vegetarian Stance

Gertrudes said:
...this isn't a discussion on people's choices. It is a discussion on how to function optimally healthwise, which is very different from one's, more often then not, subjective and highly biased choices. Choices can easily be made out of ignorance for lack of data and experimentation, since we are discussing and trying to find out what actually works, and what not, they can't really be part of the equation.
That's pretty much the bottom line. A lot of our learning/experimenting has included going against our "natural choices" - most of which are driven by unconscious motivations - and just trying to deal with the facts as we find them.

I was always inclined to think that vegetarianism was a better way. I tried it to one extent or another at various times. I even had the idea that it would be good to just eat fruit, nothing else. You know, like the "garden of Eden." I do NOT like the fact that other beings - creatures and vegetables - must give their lives to support mine. At times I have even thought that I just would not eat at all because it was too cruel - I'd rather die. I, and several others I know, have hit the wall on this more than once. I've run myself into the ground to the point of almost dying more than once for lack of care of my machine. the most recent being 2008. It was then that I realized that if I don't sort this out, find out what really works and works most efficiently, I will not be around much longer and I have a LOT of work to do and many people who depend on me to do it.

I had learned a lot over the years already from dealing with health issues, but I had never really gone into it deeply enough. I'd find something that was a quick fix - like fasting or mono-food diets that can't be sustained - and go up and down like a yo-yo. But the general progression was down, overall with the result being that, in 2008, I knew it was time to solve this once and for all, find what I could be doing on an ongoing, daily basis, to maintain energy and clarity so I could work efficiently.

I did not want food to be a focus but rather a means to an end. I also had additional motivation which was that all of my children and many of my closest associates seemed to have similar health issues and I recognized them from my own past experiences and knew where they ultimately led. The issue of being able to do our work in the face of an increasingly hostile environment, to maintain health and optimum functioning, was the objective.

I began mostly on my own, but as I had results, and others tried things and had results, it became apparent that this deserved some significant attention. Again, this is not because food is supposed to be a focus, but because we need to know what is optimum and efficient SO WE CAN WORK IN A HOSTILE ENVIRONMENT and SURVIVE long enough to do what needs to be done.

In other words, it is sort of like learning about pathology in terms of group dynamics - Ponerology. How can a person or a group of persons survive and do a positive work if they are infiltrated and co-opted and their purpose turned backwards and all their good intentions turned to dust and naught? That's basically what was happening to our bodies/machines.

As we proceeded with experimenting, it became pretty clear that food affects body chemistry, including brain chemistry, and the link between brain chemistry and pathology became evident. So, again, the goal was to optimize functioning of the machine so that it became a useful vehicle and not an old clunker that does not get you to your destination because it keeps breaking down and spends most of its time in the shop.

Vegetarianism WAS tried, believe me. It's not effective nor efficient. Not only that, it is clear from history that only those who are adapted to certain diets survive the kinds of times we are passing into and through.

But those were just the beginnings. Like I said, we experimented and have a pretty good range of conditions - canaries in the mine, so to say - to work on. Regarding that metaphor, if the gases kill the canary, you can bet that they will ultimately kill you, too, it will just take more and longer. So, if one of the canaries in the mine who has great sensitivity to things learns something, perhaps it would be useful for the miners to pay attention? That IS, after all, why they had canaries in mines!

We like to emphasize that, yes, everyone is different and individual just as some people can survive a bit longer in the mine where the canary has died than others. But the gases ARE deadly and all WILL die eventually if the canary dies. So, what is bad for the canary is bad for everyone, generally speaking, and what is good for the canary is good for everyone, generally speaking. A smart man learns from his mistakes, a genius learns from the mistakes of others. Some mistakes are deadly, too, and it behooves us to learn from the mistakes of others - the canaries in our society.

And there is no "one-size-fits-all" solution, but there ARE general principles. Some people can go longer without a break-down than others and because they have no overt symptoms, they think their health is fine. Then, one day, they have a stroke or a sudden heart attack "out of the blue". But it is NOT "out of the blue". It's a silent, symptomless process going on inside the body that is not getting what it needs. Psyche, as a cardiac surgeon, has often said that she hated working on vegetarians because they usually had the most calcified hearts and needed bone saws to remove the valves for replacement. And their survival rate was abysmal. Those are cold, hard, facts.

So, again I say, it is learning about our machine, giving it the right fuel, so that we can work most effectively and efficiently.
 

dant

The Living Force
Re: The Vegetarian Stance

Thanks for your response, Laura,
and it makes perfect sense to me!

As the wicked witch of the West said:
'These things must be done delicately, or you hurt the spell!"
 

Miguel_Sanchez

The Living Force
Re: The Vegetarian Stance

I noticed something that happened to myself in my teens, the first time I became a vegetarian. Now it could have been a function of adolescence, personal wounds, family dynamic, influence of the vegetarian movement or a combination of all, but I felt a need to convince others of the need to become a vegetarian as well. This approach is strongly encouraged by the movement and, when combined with notions of global destruction through nuclear arms, over population and pollution, it seemed urgent to convert as many people as possible.

But one of the strongest reasons for me not eating meat was the fact that I did not want to live on this planet if it were only through taking the life of another. It wasn't until I realized that plants have consciousness and were also life that I had to choose to either eat nothing or stop being a speciesist, deciding what should live and what I should die so I could eat. I now realize the interconnectiveness of all life and have developed a different approach taking only what I need and expressing gratitude to the universe and the lives that are given up that I may survive.

I see the same manipulations of the vegetarian movement going on with the anti-smoking movement. They play on fear and survival instincts to plant the lies into the minds of the masses. Since emotionality is the vehicle that brings the lies to the mind, perhaps the undoing could also come through the emotional pathways. It was my empathy with all life, including my own and the lives of my food that finally overruled the planted lies in my mind.

However, we also have the scientific evidence that emotional investments negate one's ability to synthesize any information that contradicts beliefs held in place by emotionality.

Gonzo
 

treesparrow

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Re: The Vegetarian Stance

Thanks to all for this informative thread.

I was also a long time vegetarian for about 20 years and used to eat a lot of soya as a substitute for meat, until I found out about it leaching nutrients/minerals from the body( ? or something along those lines). I subsequently starting eating meat again about 3 years ago. I often wonder if my oesteo arthritis problems stem wholly or partly from eating so much soya. My father suggested as much to me in the past but I was so sold on the vegetarian idea, so identified with it that I would not even entertain the notion. Having been involved in 'green' issues with like minded people it was almost de rigueur to be vegetarian - almost like some sort of religious badge of honour. Sometimes if I ate meat by mistake, say in a broth, I used to feel quite guilty about it. It all seems a bit ridiculous now.

Nowadays I eat organic ham, bacon and poultry and have either bacon or ham with eggs for breakfast and fry the bacon in lard using a cast iron frying pan. As a slight aside, this morning when frying up I noticed that the sound and smell of frying bacon induced a warm homely comforting feeling inside me perhaps relating to some childhood memories? Even as a veggie I loved the smell of frying bacon :)




(edit - spelling)
 

Nienna

SuperModerator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
Re: The Vegetarian Stance

I was a vegatarian on and off again for several years.

What I really find interesting, is that after starting the detox diet, I have found that most of these same vegetables that I was thinking of being ohhh so good for me, are actually the culprits of a lot of the pain I have been feeling. Since I have stopped eating them, I can feel an enormous amount of pain relief, as well as relief of itching/rashes. I found that some vegetables caused more mucous to form in my sinuses and lungs.

So overall, at least for me, being a vegetarian was NOT such a healthy way of eating.

Hooray for the detox diet!!!
 

D Rusak

Jedi Council Member
Re: The Vegetarian Stance

Laura said:
From another thread, but applicable to this one:


Fried breakfast is healthiest start to day, say scientists

http://www.sott.net/articles/show/206690-Fried-breakfast-is-healthiest-start-to-day-say-scientists
I never believed I would say this, but yes, yes, yes! I have been eating a much higher fat/protein breakfast than ever before, and it is amazing to me how much more energy I have.
I've been having: turkey bacon fried in a little ghee, refried beans (made them myself, so not as much scary stuff in them), and mashed avocado or guacamole on top of a buckwheat blini or other "bread" type substitute. It's been years (as in, probably since elementary school) since I remember not having the mid-morning dip in energy I've been accustomed to. That mid-morning dive, incidentally, was a strong reason for my drinking coffee or tea for years.

My two pesos, anyhow.
 

Laura

Administrator
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Re: The Vegetarian Stance

D Rusak said:
Laura said:
From another thread, but applicable to this one:


Fried breakfast is healthiest start to day, say scientists

http://www.sott.net/articles/show/206690-Fried-breakfast-is-healthiest-start-to-day-say-scientists
I never believed I would say this, but yes, yes, yes! I have been eating a much higher fat/protein breakfast than ever before, and it is amazing to me how much more energy I have.
I've been having: turkey bacon fried in a little ghee, refried beans (made them myself, so not as much scary stuff in them), and mashed avocado or guacamole on top of a buckwheat blini or other "bread" type substitute. It's been years (as in, probably since elementary school) since I remember not having the mid-morning dip in energy I've been accustomed to. That mid-morning dive, incidentally, was a strong reason for my drinking coffee or tea for years.

My two pesos, anyhow.
That's what we are hearing from all over and what we experience ourselves. Who would have ever thought that having your biggest and richest meal of the day at breakfast could be so life-changing? How did we lose this knowledge? Geeze, when you think about it, it is so logical.
 

Iron

Dagobah Resident
FOTCM Member
Re: The Vegetarian Stance

I, like many others in this thread was vegetarian, and later on vegan for 7 years.
I agree with the assertion of the mental component, at least for me. Looking in retrospect it fits exctly with my narcissistic wounds, the desire of erasing my own suffering, but being too blind/damaged to deal with it on me, insted projecting to everything else I did.
In this case, being the good, spiritual vegetarian guy.
Also, being the only, or one of the few vegetarians in a social setting has the added benefit of "uniqueness". People always seem to take notice of the fact that you dont eat meat, even without you saying a word about it. What a nice added bonus for any Narcissist in need of a ego boost.
Maybe people "pick it up" in the air, or I unconsciously tried to make people notice that. Dont know which.

Anyway, I started to change years back, reading the Wave... I began to think about how foolish was to think that a person could be spiritual based on what foods she is eating. And that plants are alive as well... and my entire model of plants->fish-> birds-> mammals, with plants being the most spiritual thing you could eat, was destroyed.

I realized that everything is sacred, and what you are eating is just the body. Just that. You are not "destroying" anything.
Of course the idea of killing to survive repulses me today still. But its where we stand right now, and there is not much to be gained by indulging in delusions that you are able to sustain itself in another way.
If you are some bloddy old yogi that can breath through you skin, this not applies to you of course.
But I know I am just a guy, who at this point in time needs to eat animal flesh and other things that are also alive to survive.

Also one thing that I noticed after starting EE, is that I used to being disgusted by a variety of foods. Now I grew into appreciating every one of them... I got more of a taste for the different things of life I guess.
 
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