The Vegetarian Myth

aaron

Jedi Master
FOTCM Member
Re: The Vegetarian Stance

I can relate to a lot of what has been said in this thread as I too have tried vegetarianism. I don't know what my blood type is but I know I am a meat eater. I just feel so damn good when I eat virtually raw beef. My mouth is watering at the thought of a blue steak now.

However, the thought of something having to give up it's life for me to live does not sit easy with me. If there is another way I hope to find it someday. I don't know if that feeling is some kind of program wishful or thinking thing but it is how I feel.
 

svjetlonosa

Padawan Learner
Re: The Vegetarian Stance

In 1995 I started practicing TM, several months later I quit smoking almost spontaneously and a few years afterwards I stopped eating meat, meat products, fish and similar. By profession I am connected to food technology, food safety and nutrition thus being completely aware of advantages and disadvantages of vegetarianism with its potential influences on my health.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetarianism
Vegetarianism can be adopted for various reasons: ethical, health, environmental, religious, political, cultural, aesthetic, economic, or culinary (some people simply do not enjoy consuming meat).
I just don't like the taste of meat and some other food including specific vegetables and grains.
Health benefits and concerns
The American Dietetic Association and Dietitians of Canada have stated that at all stages of life, a properly planned vegetarian diet is "healthful, nutritionally adequate, and provides health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases". Large-scale studies have shown that mortality from ischaemic heart disease was 30% lower among vegetarian men and 20% lower among vegetarian women than in nonvegetarians.[18][19][20] Necessary nutrients, proteins, and amino acids for the body's sustenance can be found in vegetables, grains, nuts, soymilk, eggs and dairy.[21] Vegetarian diets offer lower levels of saturated fat, cholesterol, and animal protein, and higher levels of carbohydrates, fibre, magnesium, potassium, folate, and antioxidants such as vitamins C and E and phytochemicals.[22]
Vegetarians tend to have lower body mass index, lower levels of cholesterol, lower blood pressure, and less incidence of heart disease, hypertension, type 2 diabetes, renal disease, osteoporosis, dementias such as Alzheimer’s Disease and other disorders.[23] Non-lean red meat, in particular, has been found to be directly associated with increased risk of cancers of the esophagus, liver, colon, and the lungs.[24] Other studies have shown no significant differences between vegetarians and nonvegetarians in mortality from cerebrovascular disease, stomach cancer, colorectal cancer, breast cancer, or prostate cancer, although the sample of vegetarians was small and included ex-smokers who had switched their diet within the last five years.[19] A 2010 study compared a group of vegetarian and meat-eating Seventh Day Adventists in which vegetarians scored lower on depression tests and had better mood profiles.[25]
Protein intake in vegetarian diets is only slightly lower than in meat diets and can meet daily requirements for any person, including athletes and bodybuilders.[28] Studies at Harvard University as well as other studies conducted in the United States, United Kingdom, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and various European countries, have confirmed that vegetarian diets provide sufficient protein intake as long as a variety of plant sources are available and consumed.[29] Proteins are composed of amino acids, and a common concern with protein acquired from vegetable sources is an adequate intake of the essential amino acids, which cannot be synthesised by the human body. While dairy and egg products provide complete sources for lacto-ovo vegetarians, the only vegetable sources with significant amounts of all eight types of essential amino acids are lupin, soy, hempseed, chia seed, amaranth, buckwheat, and quinoa. However, the essential amino acids can also be obtained by eating a variety of complementary plant sources that, in combination, provide all eight essential amino acids (e.g. brown rice and beans, or hummus and whole wheat pita, though protein combining in the same meal is not necessary). A 1994 study found a varied intake of such sources can be adequate.[30]

Vitamin B12
Plants are not generally significant sources of vitamin B12.[35] However, lacto-ovo vegetarians can obtain B12 from dairy products and eggs, and vegans can obtain it from fortified foods and dietary supplements.[36][37] Since the human body preserves B12 and reuses it without destroying the substance, clinical evidence of B12 deficiency is uncommon.[38][39] The body can preserve stores of the vitamin for up to 30 years without needing its supplies to be replenished.[35]
B12 is key to a healthy nervous system. Lack of B12 causes formation of abnormal cells, which eventually will lead to pernicious anemia and to death if not treated.

http://www.medicinenet.com/pernicious_anemia/article.HTML
Pernicious anemia is a disease where large, immature, nucleated cells (megaloblasts, which are forerunners of red blood cells) circulate in the blood, and do not function as blood cells; it is a disease caused by impaired uptake of vitamin B-12 due to the lack of intrinsic factor (IF) in the gastric mucosa. It was termed "pernicious" because before it was learned that vitamin B-12 could treat the anemia, most people that developed the disease died from it.

Anemia can result from disruptions in the production of red blood cells or hemoglobin as well as from an increased destruction of red blood cells or loss of blood.

Pernicious anemia is due to an inability to absorb vitamin B-12 (also known as cobalamin or Cbl) from the gastrointestinal tract. Humans get vitamin B-12 from animal products; both meat and dairy products are dietary sources of vitamin B-12. The body is able to store vitamin B-12 for a long time, so inadequate dietary intake must persist for years before a true deficiency of vitamin B-12 is reached. Because of this, the symptoms of pernicious anemia usually do not appear for years. While pernicious anemia is most commonly diagnosed in adults with an average age of 60, a rare, congenital (inborn) type of pernicious anemia has been described.
Pernicious anemia can cause permanent damage to nerves and other organs if it goes on for a long time without being treated. It also raises the risk for developing stomach cancer.

Pernicious anemia is easy to treat with vitamin B12 pills or shots as well as diet changes. Lifelong treatment is needed.

Eating foods high in vitamin B12 and folic acid can help prevent vitamin B12 deficiency caused by a poor diet.
The only disease that can hit vegetarians, exclusively, is the aforementioned pernicious anemia. All other diseases could occur in both meat eaters and vegetarians. The key issue is proper diet planning.

by SeekinTruth
Ahh, OK, so the article referred to was Burying the Vegetarian Hypothesis http://www.sott.net/articles/show/218541-Burying-The-Vegetarian-Hypothesis
Discussion from the above article:
by Laura
Scientists at the Department of Physiology, Anatomy and Genetics, University of Oxford, recently discovered that changing to a vegetarian diet could be bad for our brains - with those on a meat-free diet six times more likely to suffer brain shrinkage.-18

Using tests and brain scans on community-dwelling volunteers aged 61 to 87 years without cognitive impairment at enrolment, they measured the size of the participants' brains. When the volunteers were retested five years later the scientists found those with the lowest levels of vitamin B12 intake were the most likely to have brain shrinkage. Not surprisingly, vegans who eschew all foods of animal origin, suffered the most brain shrinkage. This confirms earlier research showing a link between brain atrophy and low levels of B12. ...

If vegetarians - and vegans in particular - berate you for 'murdering' and eating animals, please be kind to them. They are almost certainly suffering from self-inflicted brain atrophy, and have little recognition of both the damage they are doing to themselves and the harm that are doing to others who follow their advice. (end quote)
The brain shrinking in vegetarians of age 61-87 as quoted in SOTT discussion is not something I am afraid of. I don't find it as a good argument since results showed that shrinkedge was present at people with B12 deficiency. Vegetarians who were not deficient in B12 were not mentioned, obviously there was no brain shrinking.

My conclusion to pro et contra vegetarianism, as stated in my previous post, is that each person should develop inner senses to understand messages sent by own body including nutrition. If it's meat then let it be, if not also let it be. The division of people according to protein sources for nutrition is totally unnecessary.

Reading all these post here and at the SOTT, it seems to me we are clouded by programmes running smoothly pushing people to not understand each other, to fight about food. By recognising a programme one can develop tools to resist it.

Eventually, the key issue is taking a responsibility. Everyone is responsible for own machine. Helping people to make choices should be accompanied with a responsibility for them as well. I think this should apply to all of us here.
 

truth seeker

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Re: The Vegetarian Stance

Just out of curiosity svjetlonosa, what does your diet look like? Meaning, how do you get protein? Also, do you eat gluten, sugar, corn, soy and/or dairy?
 

brainwave

Jedi Master
Re: The Vegetarian Stance

Was a vegan for several years then switched to vegetarian after poor health.
My grandfather was a butcher and I grew up witnessing animal slaughter. We are talking small family farms here but killing was killing and the idea that I was going to eat the flesh after what I witnessed was unthinkable as a child. So I refused meat from a very young age, my mom said 4 or 5 years old.

As an adult I would like to enjoy meats. I can tolerate, some meat broth or sauce but whenever I have actual pieces of the meat I get an upset stomach. We only buy organic grass fed beef and so on. Maybe it's psychosomatic or I just can't tolerate most meats. I have been trying recently with all the health information. I do eat fish though lots and lots of it, except tuna. Had beacon for the first time in my life recently and more than a tiny piece makes me gag.
So I envy all you former vegans who are enjoying your meat. I've been doing all the gut healing stuff and hope to be able to eat some meat soon.

Brainwave
 
G

Gertrudes

Guest
Re: The Vegetarian Stance

Mrs.Tigersoap said:
Gertrudes said:
I think that there is also a bit of black and white thinking here, in that most morally induced vegetarians will only consider the big companies of meat industry and the appalling conditions in which they raise animals, also mentioned in SAO`s quote, but will often completely neglect their local organic meat producers who provide their animals a much greater quality of life, and even deaths.
At the time, I could not understand how a farmer could love an animal and then kill it to eat it. It was like killing your dog and eating it. So local organic meat producers (and they were rare in my region anyway) were also a no-no. Maybe that's why some vegetarians neglect that aspect?
I see, that makes sense.

But then again, it also brushes on the idea that empathy is more easily felt towards our fellow animals then it is towards plants. Personally, it is much easier for me to cut a flower stalk then it would be to ever kill an animal, particularly a mammal which is closer to my own species. That would be unthinkable, although I actually eat it.

In the end I think we do need to find out what is best to support our on bodies and minds. As truth seeker said:

truth seeker said:
In order for us to have the stamina to affect the necessary changes required to give birth to a new world, we need to do everything possible to support that. If we are not fully in our right minds, we simply cannot help others regardless of what incarnation or density they are in. When we choose to act in out own best interests, we serve all.
 

Laura

Administrator
Administrator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
Re: The Vegetarian Stance

From another thread, but applicable to this one:


Fried breakfast is healthiest start to day, say scientists

http://www.sott.net/articles/show/206690-Fried-breakfast-is-healthiest-start-to-day-say-scientists

A breakfast of bacon, sausages, eggs, and beans could be the healthiest start to the day, according to new research.

Scientists believe that breakfast programmes the metabolism for the rest of the day, and a fatty meal will help the body break down fat later on.

Carbohydrate rich foods in contrast appear mainly to prepare the body to break down only carbohydrates, the International Journal of Obesity reports.

Dr Martin Young, of the University of Alabama at Birmingham, said: "The first meal you have appears to programme your metabolism for the rest of the day.

"This study suggests that if you ate a carbohydrate-rich breakfast it would promote carbohydrate utilisation throughout the rest of the day, whereas if you have a fat-rich breakfast, you (can) transfer your energy utilisation between carbohydrate and fat."

The team of researchers found there may be some truth in the old saying "'eat breakfast like a king, lunch like a prince and dinner like a pauper' - may be the key to a healthy body and mind."

Their study looked at the effects of eating different types of food - and of eating them at different times in the day, according to the Daily Mail.

Mice fed a high fat meal after waking remained healthy, but those given a carb-rich breakfast, followed by a fatty dinner, did not fare as well.

Co-researcher Professor Molly Bray added: "Our study seems to show that if you really want to be able to efficiently respond to mixed meals across a day, a meal in higher fat content in the morning is a good thing."
 

RedFox

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Re: The Vegetarian Stance

Just wanted to chip in with some observations. I've personally never been vegetarian (although I did go off red meat/beef for the longest time, and for a few years ate pretty much nothing but peanut butter sandwiches!), but I did see a program once that cemented some ideas about meat and respect that seems to be missing from society perhaps.

A camera crew was following a small tribe in Kenya I believe. They followed one of the men as he went hunting for a wilder beast.....to watch this very thin man jogging under baking sun was a sight to behold.....and to keep this pace after the wilder beast I was dumb struck. :shock:
His and the communities life depended on him succeeding.
He eventually (after several hours of jogging after this creature) ran it to ground.....both he and the wilder beast where utterly exhausted from the continual chase....but his stamina was just greater than the wilder beasts. It dropped to its knees in front of the guy it was that exhausted.

The part I will never forget was that he thanked it, and gave thanks/said a prayer to the wilder beasts spirit for giving its life so that he and his community may live. It was done with the utmost respect for this creatures existence, and for its death.....and transfer of life from it to the community. The look in both the hunters and prays eyes stick in my mind at this point....

I do not know if this is important, but it does seem to have been lost from society.......I've never said grace at meal times, but that is the only thing close to this I know of.....but most people wouldn't understand saying grace/thanks at the same level as this hunter did.
If instead of slaughter, the cruelty inflicted on and suffering of animals, children saw reverence and respect (and the work required!) to kill and eat meat I wonder what effect it would have on the consideration of being vegetarian?

Personally I give thanks that I do not have to hunt to eat meat! And I had forgotten about the above until this thread came up.....
I do not think that having to survive in such a way (so close to starvation/death) is a good thing....but it sure does give you a perspective most people are not aware of.


The other observation is regarding some of the common health issues people are reporting (inability to handle much fat/can't handle red meat, causing nausea/pain) remind me of a few threads....I'm also blood type AB and also had these problems until very recently....
As of this week I've been able to eat a ton of fat/(red)meat with little or no problem.....the only side effect being I'm feeling more hungry than usual :lol: I've put all my conclusions/research together in one place here. fwiw
 

svjetlonosa

Padawan Learner
Re: The Vegetarian Stance

truth seeker said:
Just out of curiosity svjetlonosa, what does your diet look like? Meaning, how do you get protein? Also, do you eat gluten, sugar, corn, soy and/or dairy?
Combination of legumes and nuts provides all proteins and essential amino acids. But, first of all I'd like to say that I am not a prisoner of my lifestyle including diet, I eat food I feel is good for me, I follow my nose. Sometimes it's pancakes with honey or home made plum jam, pizza or cakes when I am eating out with family or friends. The only thing regarding diet where I keep strong discipline is fasting. For 8 or 9 years now, I practice (annually) 21 or 42 days of fast according to Rudolf Breuss method. Usually during July and August. This type of fasting allows consumption of herbal tea(s) drinking without sugar, honey, sweeteners; cocktail of 5 plant roots organically grown (industrial product by Swiss company) and a plenty of water. I feel lack of energy, so daily activities are reduced. This is the best detox programme I 've ever tried. After 5 years of practicing I felt great improvement of my health. Starting to eat again takes a week or two which depends on my mood, usually with vegetable soups, nuts, white rice and olive oil (not all together of course). After this clean up my body sends me signals what to eat (for example, ones I felt that soy sausages were exactly what I needed - otherwise I don't like soy products) so I ate one with mustard. If I feel similar to meat and meat products I'll eat them. We kill to eat, so killing a plant or an animal there is not much difference to me.
Let's say that this is one of mine typical menus:
breakfast: herbal tea, handful of nuts, sometimes dried fruits (figs, plums, raisins)
lunch: vegetables, legumes, root plant(s), rice, olive oil
dinner: olive oil with corn or rye mixed bread or cherry tomato with olive oil. I don't eat bread except with olive oil dipping.
Quantities of meals are not limited to me. Between meals I eat fruit or instead of dinner. There are 5 meals per day in majority of cases of the same size/quantity without calories counting. My BMI is within optimal. Health checks are once per year, everything is OK.

From time to time I eat seitan (once or twice per year) and soy sauce. Wild mushrooms occasionally. I don't like dairy products nor tofu, tempeh. I don't like soy milk, rice milk or any other milk type.
I drink a lot of water since recently, herbal tea, rarely freshly squeezed juices (too sweet).
And I forgotten to mention that occasionally I take spirulina, Noni and B vitamin complex.

I discovered that my body can tolerate bad food or large quantities of caloric food for 2-3 days, when it happens that I ate food that made me feeling heavy and similar, next few days I take olive oil with a rye bread two or three times per day or "according to nose". If I don't make a move that will push the balance back, I feel the damage.

Reduction of certain food I dislike now didn't come to me overnight, it was rather a process that lasted several years and is still ongoing. For example, last few weeks I discovered that green tea I was very keen on does not suit me any more.

Something that is good for me I am sure is not good for someone else, so please do not follow my dietary habits. One should develop own ones according to own body needs. The worst thing one can make to body health is to blindly follow other persons nutrition needs.
 

shijing

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Re: The Vegetarian Stance

RedFox said:
The part I will never forget was that he thanked it, and gave thanks/said a prayer to the wilder beasts spirit for giving its life so that he and his community may live. It was done with the utmost respect for this creatures existence, and for its death.....and transfer of life from it to the community. The look in both the hunters and prays eyes stick in my mind at this point....

I do not know if this is important, but it does seem to have been lost from society.......I've never said grace at meal times, but that is the only thing close to this I know of.....but most people wouldn't understand saying grace/thanks at the same level as this hunter did.
If instead of slaughter, the cruelty inflicted on and suffering of animals, children saw reverence and respect (and the work required!) to kill and eat meat I wonder what effect it would have on the consideration of being vegetarian?
I think it would make a lot of difference, and I'm glad you brought this example up. I think this is something that was practiced in one form or another by many cultures in the pre-colonial world. I believe it was also true in aboriginal Australia, and certainly amongst native North Americans. Sometimes thanks would be given directly to the animal itself, and sometimes to the collective spirit or totem of the animal. That actually makes sense in a way, if you think of the concept of 2D collective species souls -- this would amount to thanking the collective soul for the use of one of its "extensions" in the physical world. Modern slaughterhouse technology and practice is completely antithetical to this. I think that if children did have a chance to see this reverence (and the work required to hunt and prepare an animal) it would take a lot of power away from the moral superiority discussed earlier in this thread that fuels attitudes about vegetarianism.
 

svjetlonosa

Padawan Learner
Re: The Vegetarian Stance

Laura said:
From another thread, but applicable to this one:


Fried breakfast is healthiest start to day, say scientists

http://www.sott.net/articles/show/206690-Fried-breakfast-is-healthiest-start-to-day-say-scientists

A breakfast of bacon, sausages, eggs, and beans could be the healthiest start to the day, according to new research.

Scientists believe that breakfast programmes the metabolism for the rest of the day, and a fatty meal will help the body break down fat later on.

Carbohydrate rich foods in contrast appear mainly to prepare the body to break down only carbohydrates, the International Journal of Obesity reports.

Dr Martin Young, of the University of Alabama at Birmingham, said: "The first meal you have appears to programme your metabolism for the rest of the day.

"This study suggests that if you ate a carbohydrate-rich breakfast it would promote carbohydrate utilisation throughout the rest of the day, whereas if you have a fat-rich breakfast, you (can) transfer your energy utilisation between carbohydrate and fat."

The team of researchers found there may be some truth in the old saying "'eat breakfast like a king, lunch like a prince and dinner like a pauper' - may be the key to a healthy body and mind."

Their study looked at the effects of eating different types of food - and of eating them at different times in the day, according to the Daily Mail.

Mice fed a high fat meal after waking remained healthy, but those given a carb-rich breakfast, followed by a fatty dinner, did not fare as well.

Co-researcher Professor Molly Bray added: "Our study seems to show that if you really want to be able to efficiently respond to mixed meals across a day, a meal in higher fat content in the morning is a good thing."
I respect other people's choices. Hopefully in a year or two I'll be able to bring more light in a food science.
 

anart

The Living Force
Re: The Vegetarian Stance

svjetlonosa said:
I respect other people's choices. Hopefully in a year or two I'll be able to bring more light in a food science.
Hi svjetlonosa, I think you are missing the point that we're not really talking about 'personal choice' here so much as we are talking about science and how the human body optimally functions. From your description of your diet, your fasting is probably the only reason why you've not already developed serious health complications from the gluten, nightshades and lack of high quality fats and protein. While fasting, your body has a chance to recuperate and recover from the toxins you are ingesting.

With that said, long-term fasting can be very dangerous and damaging to the human body - though short term fasting can be quite beneficial.

Overall, you are evidencing quite an identification with your dietary choices, while accusing others of that very thing. The research and data presented on this forum and the associated sites is not presented in an emotional manner nor because anyone is 'attached' to these ideas. It is presented because it is the truth, as evidenced by many different body types, metabolisms, blood types and genotypes all experimenting with it to great benefit.

If more information is discovered tomorrow that further refines these diet guidelines, then the diet will be refined - this is how open-minded people proceed with research.

Standing firmly in what one believes to be best for them, without even experimenting to find out, is less about 'personal choice' than it is about sacred cows. It's your body and your life and you may do with it as you wish, but please don't try to derail the very real, very relevant data being presented here because it makes you personally uncomfortable.
 

Laura

Administrator
Administrator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
Re: The Vegetarian Stance

anart said:
Standing firmly in what one believes to be best for them, without even experimenting to find out, is less about 'personal choice' than it is about sacred cows. It's your body and your life and you may do with it as you wish, but please don't try to derail the very real, very relevant data being presented here because it makes you personally uncomfortable.
I second that. We've got a whole team of qualified researchers working on this AND a whole team of volunteer experimenters trying things out. We have a complete assortment of blood types and a nice selection of auto-immune conditions to work with also. We've gone through hundreds of books and thousands of scientific papers to glean the clues that we present here. If you can show us that you are doing something similar - including the real life experiences - and have treated intractable conditions with the success we've been seeing, let us know about it.
 

svjetlonosa

Padawan Learner
Re: The Vegetarian Stance

anart said:
svjetlonosa said:
I respect other people's choices. Hopefully in a year or two I'll be able to bring more light in a food science.
Hi svjetlonosa, I think you are missing the point that we're not really talking about 'personal choice' here so much as we are talking about science and how the human body optimally functions. From your description of your diet, your fasting is probably the only reason why you've not already developed serious health complications from the gluten, nightshades and lack of high quality fats and protein. While fasting, your body has a chance to recuperate and recover from the toxins you are ingesting.

With that said, long-term fasting can be very dangerous and damaging to the human body - though short term fasting can be quite beneficial.

Overall, you are evidencing quite an identification with your dietary choices, while accusing others of that very thing. The research and data presented on this forum and the associated sites is not presented in an emotional manner nor because anyone is 'attached' to these ideas. It is presented because it is the truth, as evidenced by many different body types, metabolisms, blood types and genotypes all experimenting with it to great benefit.

If more information is discovered tomorrow that further refines these diet guidelines, then the diet will be refined - this is how open-minded people proceed with research.

Standing firmly in what one believes to be best for them, without even experimenting to find out, is less about 'personal choice' than it is about sacred cows. It's your body and your life and you may do with it as you wish, but please don't try to derail the very real, very relevant data being presented here because it makes you personally uncomfortable.
I am afraid anart that your personal disagreement with my personal choices colored your vision. I am accusing someone of something?! Without experimenting to find out?! What are you talking about?
I am unconformtable only with close-minded uniformed approach. Learning lessons takes times. Everyone has own path and speed in that process. You should respect other people's choices regardless if they are good or not for them from your point of view.
 

Laura

Administrator
Administrator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
Re: The Vegetarian Stance

svjetlonosa, the point is that you are just adding noise here.
 

svjetlonosa

Padawan Learner
Re: The Vegetarian Stance

Laura said:
anart said:
Standing firmly in what one believes to be best for them, without even experimenting to find out, is less about 'personal choice' than it is about sacred cows. It's your body and your life and you may do with it as you wish, but please don't try to derail the very real, very relevant data being presented here because it makes you personally uncomfortable.
I second that. We've got a whole team of qualified researchers working on this AND a whole team of volunteer experimenters trying things out. We have a complete assortment of blood types and a nice selection of auto-immune conditions to work with also. We've gone through hundreds of books and thousands of scientific papers to glean the clues that we present here. If you can show us that you are doing something similar - including the real life experiences - and have treated intractable conditions with the success we've been seeing, let us know about it.
Do you feel that I attacked diet presented here and the work of your team?
 
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