The Vegetarian Myth

[mpescador]

there is an "us and them" current running through this thread [..] And if you see that, then tell me, but don't tell me that it is not a wee bit problematic to inform and express one's identity in terms of exclusion of "the other".[..] First religion, then liberalism/science/democracy, now diets.

It really is much simpler than that, mpescador. I for one do not base my identity on what I eat. I have other areas of personal experience that are way more meaningful and important to me, to do that. And whatever they may be, I continue to critically observe them and analyze them, rather than plunging into them without thinking. This is what Work is all about. The diet, however, is simply about the food that is the best fuel for the body to live. Paleo works, vegetarianism doesn't, as we found out through both research and experience. That's all there is to it.

This might be the case for you, and good on you, too, but it is clearly not the case for everyone in this thread - indeed, it is seems antithetic to the very existence of this thread - and, one might add, something of the same is observable elsewhere, such as in Robb Wolf's Paleo Solution, who in his introduction speaks so righteously and viciously about vegetarians (that is, his ex-girlfriend(s)) that he appears like an unreconstructed male born in 1912.

But who are the "we" that you refer to, who have found that vegetarianism doesn't work? I am always a bit nervous when people say "we". Are they royal, Siamese twins, or what?

Vegetarianism, perhaps, doesn't work for city-smart, liberal professionals, I don't know; but, if it doesn't work at all - which is an incredible blanket statement that, obviously, rejects the complexity of the surrounding environment and lifestyle - then how come for instance Indian/Hindu culture seems to have survived for thousands of years?!? Now, of course, diabetes is exploding all over Asia, but that rather seems attributable to a changed environment and the impact of processed food and a "modern" middle-class existence like Euro-America.

 

[mkrnhr]

mpescador, don't be angry, you're just hurting yourself. If you want to be a vegetarian, it's up to you. Do you want to consider the scientific data? Everything is there. If you want to close your eyes because of your beliefs, it's your choice. But do not attack people because they do not believe, and because they think and experiment outside of the box that is imposed by the official media. Your pseudo-arguments show clearly that you didn't take the time to study the data.

 

[ytain]

mpescador, may I ask you a question.

What is your blood work, especially the complete blood panel values that can show the levels of nutrients circulating in the blood?

I ask just to see if a vegetarian can truly live that way without a meat based diet and without supplements.

Could you answer the question?

Ytain

 

[mpescador]

mpescador, don't be angry, you're just hurting yourself. If you want to be a vegetarian, it's up to you. Do you want to consider the scientific data? Everything is there. If you want to close your eyes because of your beliefs, it's your choice. But do not attack people because they do not believe, and because they think and experiment outside of the box that is imposed by the official media. Your pseudo-arguments show clearly that you didn't take the time to study the data.

This is rather funny. I am not angry, merely puzzled by the religious-style attacks on vegetarians - - and the assumption that I am vegetarian is very funny

 

[mpescador]

mpescador, may I ask you a question.

What is your blood work, especially the complete blood panel values that can show the levels of nutrients circulating in the blood?

I ask just to see if a vegetarian can truly live that way without a meat based diet and without supplements.

Could you answer the question?

Ytain

Can you answer this question: Why do you think I am vegetarian?

 

[mkrnhr]

There is no attack on vegetarians here, only a referenced critique of vegetarianism. The rest is just your imagination.

 

[mpescador]

mpescador, don't be angry, you're just hurting yourself. If you want to be a vegetarian, it's up to you

The entire thread is full of attacks on people and that is what I am commenting on. In the context of which it is rather odd that you should say "If you want to be a vegetarian, it's up to you", when such dietary preferences are ridiculed.

-- and since you couldn't read between the lines, where it transpires to the keen eye, just for the record, I am not vegetarian and never was and never will be. So no axes to grind or self-harm to project in viciousness.

 

[mpescador]

There is no attack on vegetarians here, only a referenced critique of vegetarianism. The rest is just your imagination.

The degree to which there is anti-vegetarianism in this thread is no better revealed than in the assumptions that since I am asking a question of a certain kind, then I must be vegetarian.

The repeated speculation on self-harm and psychological damage at the core of projections - interesting as they are - are simply statements of superiority that I have not come across since, guess what, being in the company of militant vegans. It continues in your reply, which comes from so high above that you are probably lacking oxygen.

But I get it and will take my imagination elsewhere....

 

[mkrnhr]

The entire thread is full of attacks on people and that is what I am commenting on. In the context of which it is rather odd that you should say "If you want to be a vegetarian, it's up to you", when such dietary preferences are ridiculed.

No, you are wrong. The thread is about data collection and experience sharing. If you see attack and ridicule, it's really strange. See the threads on cognitive science.

-- and since you couldn't read between the lines, where it transpires to the keen eye, just for the record, I am not vegetarian and never was and never will be. So no axes to grind or self-harm to project in viciousness.

So you're not vegetarian, good for you too. Now, what do you want to discuss: facts, or your subjective opinion on how the thread looks to you? In the second case, you're free to color your view as you wish, it doesn't make it true :)

 

[1984]

Can you answer this question: Why do you think I am vegetarian?

Perhaps you can answer this question: what is your motive in joining here? If you've read the Forum Guidelines you will have read that this is a research forum, not a debate forum. You are coming across that you have read the entire thread. If you have, then you would have the understanding that there no "there is an "us and them" current running through this thread [..]".

 

[Mountain Crown]

[quote author=mpescador]The entire thread is full of attacks on people and that is what I am commenting on.[/quote]
I find this odd since you stated you only scanned the thread.

Without quoting instances of said attacks your posts have a troll-like quality. fwiw.

 

[mkrnhr]

The degree to which there is anti-vegetarianism in this thread is no better revealed than in the assumptions that since I am asking a question of a certain kind, then I must be vegetarian.
But I get it and will take my imagination elsewhere....

Yes it is anti-vegetarianism for sound and rational reasons. It is not anti-vegetarians at all. Now you're starting to understand.
There was no assumption, I said IF YOU WANT to be vegetarian. That's not a YOU ARE a vegetarian. I'm not an English language speaker but I still make a distinction.

Consequently, your assumption about my assumptions is wrong :)
IF YOU decide to take your imagination elsewhere, it's up to you.

 

[Seppo Ilmarinen]

Having scanned through this thread it seems there are a number of ex- now anti-vegetarians who, according to themselves, have inflicted damage upon themselves and in the disillusion (and shame? of having been wrong) find some relief, maybe even pleasure in climbing on a high horse and looking down upon vegetarians as victims of this and that - and, hence, as underlings that need the enlightened beings' pity or sympathy (or ridicule).

Are you sure that you're not mixing up critique of ideology (vegetarism) with people who practice it? If you'd get to know better this forum, you'd perhaps find out that this is propably the last place where people have the need to impose their beliefs unto others. I'm also curious that did you only register here to write this post or are you interested what this forum is about? Have you read The Vegetarian Myth book? If you see attacking against vegetarians (instead critique of ideology), perhaps you can give us few reference posts where you think this is happening?

 

[mpescador]

Yes, I am interested in this forum for a wide range of reasons and came past via a thread on ketosis, then found this and was rather startled, then, perhaps impatiently so, jumped to make a comment that so far has brought out what I thought I saw.

So, this is about vegetarianISM... I see, -- so that it commences:

"I think I understand more fully what's going on with some vegetarians"

refers to their -ism, not to them.

Well, that is not very clear.

and this is about vegetarian-ISM?

"The vegetarians really did not like their sacred cow to be slaughtered or BBQ' ed for that matter"

and this is about what, if not "their feeling of being superior", i.e. the people not the -ism?

"Take away the vegetarianism and you take away their feeling of being superior."

this seems personal:

"I personally know someone who will say just about anything to justify her vegetarian stance and convince others of it's merit. And it is all dictated from Paris by her first art teacher."

as does this:

If psuedo-ethical arguments didn't cut it, he would try health arguments and back and forth.

and this?

The self-righteousness and sense of superiority is always present

.... not sure I can be bothered to paste more, and the last one gets us full circle anyway

 

[ytain]

Can you answer this question: Why do you think I am vegetarian?

I won't answer your question till you give an answer to my question.

Ytain