The Vegetarian Myth

Gosh, this sounds really awful @Lys! It's literally brainwashing - despite overwhelming evidence it has no scientific basis. On the contrary! I wonder what parents say to all this.

I bet the difference between factory farming and organic, outdoor bred livestock wasn't included in the video and I wish the teacher had been switched on enough to point out the latter as an alternative.

Coincidentally, I was forced to have vegan lunch today as I didn't have time to prepare anything yesterday. My food intolerances are multiple and I had very little time so that was the only thing I could find quickly. I was hungry again within 40 minutes and I was sleepy all day. Luckily I had a bar of butter in the office fridge so out of desperation I ate over 1/4 of it with a spoon. People thought it was custard :-)

Geez, I was actually vegetarian myself for a long time but I could never go back now. Seriously, if this propaganda wins I'm going to learn to hunt!
 
I was thinking about the vegetarian business last night. You know, all the historical studies I've read about periods of plague, pandemic, black death, whatever, say that the poor died in much greater numbers than the wealthy and the reason was their diet: they couldn't afford meat.

Basically, what that means is that the vegetarian/vegan movement is seeking to impose on large numbers of people the conditions that make them ripe to be killed off by pandemic. They may not be poor in the classical sense, but the environment will see them as poor by virtue of their poor nutrition.
 
Laura said:
I was thinking about the vegetarian business last night. You know, all the historical studies I've read about periods of plague, pandemic, black death, whatever, say that the poor died in much greater numbers than the wealthy and the reason was their diet: they couldn't afford meat.

Basically, what that means is that the vegetarian/vegan movement is seeking to impose on large numbers of people the conditions that make them ripe to be killed off by pandemic. They may not be poor in the classical sense, but the environment will see them as poor by virtue of their poor nutrition.
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When I saw your comment, I couldn't help thinking about a video that came up on FB yesterday and which kind of chocked me in the sense of: "Has the situation gone this far!" The basically put eating meat alongside smoking and suggest a similar cure - help to quit. Take a look at this short video, which apparently is promoted by a Danish group. At least I had to translated the text below the video from Danish to English:
Time to Quit?
It is time that we begin to be critical of our meat consumption. For your own sake and for the climate's sake.

We are ready by the phones Monday-Friday, between the ages of 10-14 to help you!

CALL THE QUIT MEAT HELPLINE
+45 82 82 00 00
Click to expand...
 
This is an interesting thread. There's a lot of anti-vegan arguments here, that I didnt expect to find. Most of the "illumined" forums on web are pro-vegan, so cass-folk being so much against planteaters is kinda surprising!
I'm not a complete vegan myself ( i eat milkproducts weekly and eggs maybe a few times a year. ) But no meat for me.
Yes, nutrition is very important for your body. Like, if you have too little copper in your system, your hair starts to go grey at younger age etc. "Dead doctors don't lie" is my primary source here. Look it up if youre interested in what different deficiencies might cause. I'm a heavy pill-eater that takes several multivitamins and aminoacids and omegaphattyacids semi-regularly, but not every day. I have been vegetarian for.. uhh.. 15 years now? Last time I was sick and had a fever was several years ago. Im not sick often and I go to gym twice a week and i'm in good overal health. I used to get sick all the time when i still ate meat. I'm an A- bloodtype, so it's easier for me to be vegetarian than other groups, i guess.

cass say, that it doesnt really matter what you eat. Heck, some people eat nothing but cheese pizza and nothing else and are in good health! Some eat chalk or dirt... I dont think it really matters in grand scheme of things what you use for fuel if the focus is on the mental side of things.

They say that "meat lowers your vibration levels" but this argument cant be really proven... It might be true, or maybe not?

They say also, that it defines a species how they treat their animal friends. Well.. You know how we treat our livestock... Caging them in small prisons barely having enough space to move just waiting to get slaughtered, fed with antibiotics their entire life too.. isn't that nice. But we treat .. WELL .. the ELITE treats humans almost as badly, so..

I posted this thing on another thread, but I'll say it again in here too:
Maybe the anxiousness the animals feel when they are alive transfers to humans when we eat their meat? It might be via hormones, or some invisible energy transfer, but i think that its true. I dont have any proofs tho. Have you heard of the elite drug "adrenochrome" ? that is a hormone that is formed in humans when we feel "flight or fight" or extreme terror or something else like that. The elite supposedly torture some poor humans, and extract their blood, and when they drink it, they get the adrenochrome in their system. It presumably enhances their senses, but since youre not in a state of complete terror, it feels really good.

what about halal meat? It's also prepared in a way, that the animal is in a state of terror when it is killed. Most of the hormones go out when the blood of the animal is extracted, but some may be left in fat tissue and muscle. And when muslims eat this halal-meat, do they get similar effects than the elite, when they do their blooddrug? Could this be one of the reasons muslims seem to be more ready to do really aggressive things? because they eat meat of an animal that is killed by torture?

I'd love to be able to leave the plants alive too, and live on nothing but pure water, but that's not possible for me at the moment. Breatharianism is a movement, where you go without eating anything. Dunno if it's real or just urban legend. I see it that way, that the fruits of the plants are made for eating, and that causes the least amount of suffering in your living enviroment. Eating ripe fruits doesn't hurt plants, and helps them spread their seeds. WIN-WIN situation. Im not that pure tho, i murder salads all day every day... xD

I'm not gonna repeat everyting i wrote on that another thread.. i believe it was a transgender thread where i got a little sidetracked..

I do have a strong feminine side, so i'm an archetype of "soyboy", but that has always been the case, also before when i still ate meat. I'm not a transperson tho, just artistic/poetic - kinda guy : D

me rambling about myself, now i don't remember what my actual point was. summa summarum, how do you guys and girls justify to yourself that you partake in such cruel actions that is massproducing of meat... ? well im not judging anyone, a MAN HAS TO EAT SOMETHING TO SURVIVE!

Laura you had an interesting point above, that the poor had a lower survival rate of bad diseases than the rich.. but aren't there many other factors beside them not being able to afford meat? Like not being able bathe regularly and so on. Eating rotten things and shoelaces and such. If the poor had fresh veggies and multivitamin pills they might have had a better change to survive. It's only kinda recent knowledge what minerals and vitamins and aminoacids the body needs. Vegetarians only lack vitamin B in their diet. But we got the pills for that. Is it that different if you eat that pill yourself, or if its fed to the pig you eat later?

earth is getting poorer and poorer of minerals and such, so i suggest that everyone should consider taking vitamin supplements, regardless of your diet! The "suggested daily intake values" are also very very low. Like the vitamin C, 100% of recommended dose only keeps the symptoms of deficiency away, but is way below the actual optimal intake. In the early 1900's the weakest vitamin D supplement you could buy was somethin like 1000uG. nowadays, the recommended dose is 5uG. I'm not saying you should eat vitamins like candy, because some of them are harmful in excess, but... You know, it's good for drugsellers to keep humans malnutritioned so they can sell them more drugs.. Maybe that is why every recommendation is so low. "Hey, you have anxiety caused by a lack of vitamin x ? no problem, take these benzos to make those feelings go away!!" ;)

sincerely yours,
pro-vegetarian poster and animal lover
 
Laura said:
I was thinking about the vegetarian business last night. You know, all the historical studies I've read about periods of plague, pandemic, black death, whatever, say that the poor died in much greater numbers than the wealthy and the reason was their diet: they couldn't afford meat.

Basically, what that means is that the vegetarian/vegan movement is seeking to impose on large numbers of people the conditions that make them ripe to be killed off by pandemic. They may not be poor in the classical sense, but the environment will see them as poor by virtue of their poor nutrition.
Click to expand...

Just came to my mind that veganism could be said to be a form of transhumanism, you know, denying your make-up. :huh:
 
Laura said:
I was thinking about the vegetarian business last night. You know, all the historical studies I've read about periods of plague, pandemic, black death, whatever, say that the poor died in much greater numbers than the wealthy and the reason was their diet: they couldn't afford meat.
Click to expand...

Same when war. During Second World War the restriction on food was a sort of punitive law for the population. No meat, one egg maybe by month, butter almost absent, sugar absent also. Hunger of fat was terrible. But the population has to suffer, not only by the war but by the absence of food. But not only the population was forced to eat very little and almost no fat or meat, the soldiers also. They had so little food, almost no fat and meat. How come this is possible? They were fighting for their country and their leaders were absolutely indifferent about their nutrition. How can you fight with a little sandwich of one piece of very fine ham ? So nutrition during war was part of their agenda to make people suffer and die.

The vegans should read about food in very difficult historical situations.
 
Wow, im only 50 pages in, and im enjoying the book. Cant believe ive missed this. It was even the name of this topic, but ive only read posts here and there and missed to book part completely. Ill make another post when im finished. Sorry if i couldnt bring anything new to discussion with my post above, it wasnt meant to be an attack on meateaters, but more of my own experiences on veganism. Im still young and learning. 28 years of age is just enough to realize how little i know.
I guess im abit of a hypocrat, because i have 2 cats and i feed them raw meat i buy from store.. But its a necessity for them, and me, i can go without.
I will let you know if the book is enough to convert me from vegetarian to meateater! Im very interested in the same topics the author of book is, and i have really similar mindset, difference being, i didnt get sick from plants! I just graduated from school that teaches permaculture, and i have a degree on chemistry too, so i have some insight on topic of sustainable living and the chemical processes that happen along the way. But there has been some new things to consider in those 50 pages allready. Its written in very entertaining way. Its very interesting that the author is convinced that life cannot exist without death. Unnecessary killing and natural cycle of life are two completely different things tho.. I have a belief that every living thing decides before its even born, that how its going to die, so in a way, maybe those cows wanted to have an experience of dying for your sake. Okay ill go back to reading, and maybe ill have some better comments on topic after im done.
Its sad that the agriculture is done in so destructive way, but there are good results from different sustainable ways of growing things, and maybe they become mainstream sometime in the future when greedy moneyworshippers come to their senses. They propably wont before its too late... Is there a fight going on... Meateaters vs vegetarians... "My choise of life is superior to yours, your attempt to make a world a better place is naive and stupid!" Maybe there are some natural vegans and natural meateaters, who knows, humans are so different from each other on every level! Okay back to reading
 
Ohkay, i rushed it to end, skipping political vegetarians part, but ill get to that part later... It was a good read, a little depressing and cynical at times, but mostly higly relatable.. I think i need some time to process, i didnt really get that many answers, but more questions emerged.
This forum has the most mature and knowledgeble people i have seen on internet, and i need to work on my tone when writing posts. Ive been arguing with kids on other forums, and this is a very different environment with so many bright humans way ahead of me.. Sorry if ive appeared ignorant.
Now, there wasnt really that much new information in that book that i didnt already know, but it made me remember many things ive forgotten.
This was a hard topic to begin with, and reading that book made it even more complex.. I dont know if theres anything i can add to what this book unravels, but it made me think...

Kind of related: i read on some bloggers page, that when he travelled the world, he met one guy at a bar. He was drunk, and they began talking. They guy at the bar told, that he's job was to ensure, that parts of afrika remain in famine. He had cia/mi6/whatever funding to sabotage the food grown or distriputed to many parts of afrika. He had so bad self esteem for doing this, that he had to be constatly drunk in order to do his job.. So, if this is true, and i wouldnt be surprised if it was, then maybe we could provide every human with food for less than we think?

I dont know what to say about the actual diet of inviduals, be it carnivore or vegetarian or different. You should eat what you feel you need? I will continue my vegetarianism nevertheless. I may be murdering them bacteria that fly to my open mouth and so on, but that cant be helped. I try to do the most i can... I used to "worship" death as superior state to being alive, but They just might be equally powerful and necessary. and nowadays i try to cause the least amount of unnecessary deaths as possible, like you all here i bet. But the book reminded me of hypocratic nature of many planteaters, indeed, it seems that the mainstream way of doing things has no good options for sustainability. Is there really nothing we can do than to wait out until the last fish is eaten and so on like the indians predicted, and wait for cleansing war and total reset of planet? Thats depressing. I have my dreams of selfsustained farm, and i try to get there some day. The book was kind of biased on some parts, but then again it might be me that is biased too. Wouldnt be the first time im wrong. This person that i am attending the world as, has some major flaws.

According to different sources, the earth could in theory provide for tenfolds of more people than there currently are. If used correctly. I dont know, im at loss for anything meaningful to say, ill get back to this if theres anything new i think would be interesting to you guys.

There are ways to grow plants where u need very minimal input on closed circle microsphere, but its only very marginal amount of people that do this at the moments... and new ways are invented every day, so maybe theres hope!

It was a shame that the author hadnt met any legit breatharians! That would be the best if it was achievable, but hey, everything is possible! Nothing should be ruled out of possible things because we have infinite potential! Even as these flawed shut-down-versions of ourself!

Sincerely yours,
utopistic and biased pro vegan animal lover :D
 
We discussed about lierre keith with my hc vegan friend briefly.. I'll quote what my friend said:

"yeah i know of her. I haven't read the book, but i know of her. Even Many of those pple that agree with her have accused her of lackluster use of reliable sources and she has displayed many different cognitive distortions. She presumably admitted on some (??i dont know what) interview that she actually was never a vegan. In that interview she has many false claims and pleads to emotions rather than facts. Ive researched many of these "paleo - low carb etc health gurus" that seem rubbish to me, mainly because they are far off in their guesses regarding to what "paleotic" humans actually ate. Now i havent read the book, but i guess she has a few good points on the issues of modern agriculture, but as i said mainly pleads to emotions and feelings rather than facts"

It was a good book thou, defenitely worth reading! Didnt convince me, but was nice!
 
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lahje said:
In that interview she has many false claims and pleads to emotions rather than facts
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That's rich, considering that's what most hard-core, extreme vegans and vegetarians usually do. They're big on emotions and all about guilt-tripping meat-eaters, but I don't see many facts in their arguments.
Speaking for myself, I couldn't care less about vegans/vegetarians. I'm all about free will and everybody doing what they think is best for them. The only 'little' problem is that vegans want to convert everyone to their religion (just like extreme leftists want to convert everyone to the gender diversity/fluidity crap… BTW, they're often part of the same crowd so that's not surprising). There's an ugly agenda to push veganism on the whole population, and it gets more violent and hateful by the day, with butchers getting assaulted and their shops being vandalized, to the point that (in France, for ie), butchers petitioned to the government for protection against those intolerant nutjobs. I thought vegans were all about peace, tolerance and loving your neighbour, but apparently not. Unless by neighbour, they only mean their fellow animals.

Vegans arrested in northern France for smashing up butchers shops
France’s butchers fear the wrath of ‘militant vegans’
 
Just some general comments: I've spent pretty much my whole life looking for the answers to hard questions. Most of the folks who are my friends forum members know how diligently I work at this. They know, for example, that I will read piles of the most boring books on the planet looking for the nuggets of gold. When the Cs once told me:

"Now do you see the benefit in slowing down and not having prejudices when asking questions of great import? You see when you speed too quickly in the process of learning and gathering knowledge, it is like skipping down the road without pausing to reflect on the ground beneath you. One misses the gold coins and the gemstones contained within the cracks in the road."

I took this very seriously because I was dealing with facing some very unpleasant lessons and if I had taken the easy way, I would have missed the most important factors.

And so, I read things that almost no one else will take the time to read, and I read carefully. One of the more interesting collections of data I have are small comments made in archaeological/paleontological research papers/reports (like who reads that stuff?). Over and over and over again the workers will make remarks about the comparison between the health of the people they are digging up and their diet (determined by remains), and over and over again it is noted that eating of grains and vegetables as the dominant source of food led to a sharp and dramatic decline in the health of the individual.

Now, I DO recommend books on the forum here rather often, but the fact is, I may read 50 books, glean some gems, and only recommend one or two out of the batch because they have a greater signal to noise ratio. When I do recommend a book, you can be pretty sure that it is worth reading, and reading slowly and carefully because there are gems in there.

Having recommended books, and having gone to the extremes in terms of figuring out what is worth reading and what is not, it is always interesting to me how people react to these recommendations. It's amazing how many people will gripe and groan that they (God forbid) are being urged to read a book. Never mind that I've read 50 more than they have and only suggested, for very good reasons, that they should read one of the 50. It's like they expect me to just do it all, and hand out the answers like candy. But, as the Cs once said:

"Knowledge is power. If we give it to you like Halloween candy, it is diffused."

Notice the term "knowledge". That means knowing Truth - or as close to it as you can get.

There are others who will take up the book, and do a half-assed reading of it, or search for the Cliff Notes online and pretend they read it, or start reading it, get bored and give up. All I can say is that it tells me a lot about a person's drive for Knowledge when I discern how they read a book. And, when you can perceive something about a person's drive for knowledge, you can see a lot about the person in general.

Now, let me skip to the bottom line here and give out some candy. After reading literally thousands of books, from numerous fields, with numerous points of view, vegetarianism/veganism is BAD for human beings and a lot of other critters besides, and for a LOT of reasons. If a person cannot be bothered to really research the question, mainly in fields that are NOT geared to promote any particular diet, but merely observe the consequences of diet (such as paleontology or archaeology), then sorry, I'm not gonna discuss it with you. If you can't even make the effort to approach the level of knowledge I have on the topic, and all you want to do is argue, fuggedaboutit. Do your thing; it's a free will universe; but be advised you will not be seen as a very clever person here if you choose vegetarianism with all the information available that it is counterproductive to life and development. You've been skipping along the road following a rainbow and left behind the treasure.
 
Today I've been listening to a Russian radio show where the host interviewed a veterinary about allergies in pets. The doctor told many interesting facts on the subject, but one detail stood out for me: she said that dogs are generally more prone to allergies than cats. Then she also mentioned that dogs are often allergic to grains. She didn't make any further conclusions from these facts, but shouldn't it make people pause and think carefully about their pets' diet? Is such food as cereal actually natural and healthy or them? Why are cats, that are mostly meat eaters, suffer from allergies less often than dogs?

As for me, I once tried to eliminate meat from my diet many years ago. Well, I only managed to last for one month when I realized that I only feel worse and worse each day. I felt weak and hungry all the time no matter what amount of carbs I consumed.

Recently one of my friends also decided to become a vegan and even converted her entire family into veganism. And her little son is now also feeling hungry all the time. He is eating veggies almost non-stop all day long, yet he constantly feels hungry. Poor little boy.
 
Sleeping on it, i have a better opinion on Lierre's book now. It was an entertaining read. But her thoughtpatterns seemed very unhealthy at some points. Her main argument against vegan food seemed to be: "someone, somewhere, killed an animal/insect in the progress of making this tomato, so you eating that tomato makes you a murdered!"
There's no differentation on direct involvement in killing and indirect involvement. If you lived by her words... You might own a car. Somewhere in the progress of making that car, a worker was killed in accident, so if you use that car, it's practically the same thing if you personally went there and shot the poor worker guy, and you should be ashemed of yourself using that car!
I didnt know anything about this author when i started reading, and i honestly thought it was written by a man, until the radical feminist approach became apparent. I have nothing against radical feminists, but they often tend to be just the female versions of male chauvinists.
 
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