To spay or not to spay?

[Miss.K]

Do you know if that procedure should still not be done when they are less than 1, 5 years? If it doesn't influence the hormone production, it could be that it would be ok I think?


I don't know if it's for dogs that it's recommended that they give birth once, or for cats as well. I mean I would love to have kittens, and though for the cat having kittens is hard work, I think that the mother hormones that makes one loooove ones offspring are a precious thing to experience for a cat, so I would like her to have the chance, but I can just see myself not wanting to give them away to strangers who might not feed them meat, and all kinds of terrible things I could imagine they might go through if not under my care, and so I would end up with a lot of cats (it seems it is lucky I never got kids, and that I would have been a terrible mother never wanting them to leave home and go into the horrible world all by them selves)

I tend to advise not to neuter cats before at least 1.5 years of age. But in practice this is very difficult. Some people manage to endure pesky behavior during heat some dont. Indeed having kittens is hard work and you should weigh all the options carefully.

I guess that the Suprelorin might be the best option then. I could of cause keep her inside, but she's telling me all day (and night) that she would like to lay in the sun, and hunt insects and small animals (or perhaps she's really training for a cat pop singer show, and I'm just projecting) As for the heat behavior, I'm very understanding, as I've felt like that myself once or twice, so even though it can be quite annoying, it's Ok with me (and it is just a couple of times a year)
I've found that it helps to lay a very calm but firm hand on the stomach (both with my former cat and this one) and not moving the hand to not excite further. Then after a little while they calm down and fall asleep -so as long as I don't move and wake the cat there is peace :)

 

[Laura]

Interestingly enough, just recently had an opportunity to observe the behavior of newly castrated dog. It's a dog (a mix between Jack Russell Terrier and Bull Terrier) of one of my group-mates at the university. While he recovered (and a bit after) he lived at the therapy clinic. Considering his breed(s) he is a lively and active dog. Actually, my group-mate decided to castrate him after he ran away after a female dog in heat and got bitten by couple of larger dogs.

Just a note that it may take several weeks after castration for all the testosterone to disappear from the body.

I'd say its a gamble - there are no rules to which extent and in which way will personality be changed. But for some people who think they have a perfect dog ( sans unwanted sexual behavior) this gamble may be too risky. I am one of them so I might not be thinking clearly on this one.

Well, as probably everyone knows, Sebastian NEVER lost his somewhat aggressively protective instincts. He was nipping kneecaps and biting behinds almost to the end.

Same with Elvis: his protective, even assertive, character has not changed. The ONLY thing that has changed is that he does not become a self-destructive machine under the influence of the need to mate.

Same with Laddie who was ALWAYS a little gentleman. He still is.

Lulin was neutered at the youngest age, though not too young, and yes, he is rather juvenile. But then, Elvis is his "minder" and I rather think he does things just to provoke Elvis and get Elvis to chase him.

My perspective on the neutering issue was this: the surgery for the female is rather invasive and takes longer to recover. For the males, it is short and simple. So I prefer to inflict the least trauma via surgery. Perhaps I am projecting, having gone through numerous surgeries and felt that they were horribly traumatizing and invasive. It took me several years to really recover from my first. The more cutting is done, the more violation of the organism.

I should also mention that for YEARS I was totally against neutering since it was a "violation of nature". But heck, by having pets, we've already crossed the line so the question is: how to make it easier for them to live in our world? Our boys SUFFERED rather dreadfully while intact; now they are actually more free to be themselves without that overlay of testosterone.

 

[SevenFeathers]

For my first three girls, I had them spayed early. They were healthy (it seemed), and had plenty of energy. I've been reading Dr. Becker's articles on the subject, and haven't spayed my current lab mix. She's going on 2 and so far has not been much trouble during her cycles. She's not an escape artist and is very obedient even during her cycle. I don't plan on having her spayed, so I will see if it makes any difference in her life. Let's hope she lives a long, healthy life!

 

[Scottie]

The one thing that DOES change with the boys is their urge to roam or to get crazy for a female. After our experience locking Elvis in the small fenced area during the girl's heat, when he literally tore the skin off his face trying to get out, I said "no more of that". It's terrible for a critter to be driven by something to the point that it will tear up its body.

Yeah, that was awful. When we actually found him with his bloodied face, I had instantly resolved to take him to the vet - come hell or high water - and get the deed done. If he couldn't roam freely and let the chemicals work themselves out, then it would be against nature and simple decency to keep him cooped up. Well, lesson learned!

Besides, humans get snipped all the time. It's not like it's cruel and unusual punishment. I suppose the problem there is that the pet can't decide for him/herself. But if we as the human "masters" are deciding no puppies, then that means the responsibility is on us to ensure maximum comfort and safety and happiness for our favorite furry critters.

By simply living with us, pets are automatically not in their natural habitat. That means all the rules change. In the wild, there wouldn't necessarily be litter after litter after litter. But with human caretakers, females might continue having litters until they physically collapse because they are safe, protected, sheltered, well fed, no predators, far less disease, and so on.

As for the hormonal changes, "neutralized" pets still have no problem with the birds and bees when the time comes. Aside from the end of the "insanity", everything proceeds and functions perfectly normally, often with extreme vigor... So, no problems on that front from snipping!

 

[Miss.K]

Besides, humans get snipped all the time. It's not like it's cruel and unusual punishment. I suppose the problem there is that the pet can't decide for him/herself. But if we as the human "masters" are deciding no puppies, then that means the responsibility is on us to ensure maximum comfort and safety and happiness for our favorite furry critters.

IMO there is a big difference in snipped as a human and having testicles, or ovaries/uterus removed. Even if the animal don't experience the joy of mating or motherhood, to me that is "well too bad, but life is tough, I'm not getting any babies either" It is more the removal of hormone producing parts I worry about. Both physically and emotionally.

Of cause I understand and agree that having the urge for mating removed, rather than the animal tearing itself apart from unfulfilled desire, is better, and I don't think sexual desire is necessary for having a good life (probably it's the opposite) but sexual hormones do more than making one want sex, and I'm just afraid that a cat feels as empty without it's uterus as a woman does (or that the woman in some article about it I once read did)

Though if it comes to either her being less fulfilled but still having a pleasant life, or me having to kill kittens, she will have to live without uterus, but if there is a better way....

 

[Keit]

So I watched the video and now get the idea of the partial spay. While in normal spay the ovaries are being ligated from both sides of the ovary, in this case the ligature is being placed only from the side of the uterus, and then the uterus with both horns is being removed after ligating the cervix. This way the ovaries still get the blood supply and don't atrophy, and therefore remain in the functioning state. It also means that the female dog will experience the symptoms of heat, just that there won't be any vaginal discharge during the heat cycle or anything else associated with the uterus.

Now, this scenario indeed prevents any chances of developing pyometra, especially in older dogs, but the thing is that one of the main reasons that predisposes for pyometra is bad diet that creates hormonal and metabolic disbalance in the body. Another is bad upkeep, stress, etc. But bad diet is number one. So if the dog is being fed properly all her life and she has no health problems, than she has much less chances of developing pyometra than other dogs. In this case, indeed, it is best to just castrate the male dogs (if she lives in a pack) and this way avoid the more invasive and painful procedure such as surgery. But maybe some dogs, especially pure breeds may still have a predisposition to various metabolic disorders that may predispose to pyometra. So each case is different.

Just a note that during heat cycle the female dog utilizes a lot of her inner resources, so in the end of the cycle there is a need to replenish the supply, so to say, and give her food rich in minerals, vitamins, etc. But I think that if she is fed good raw diet this stuff is going to be ok anyway. Well, good to know. Thanks for sharing, Z!

 

[Z...]

My perspective on the neutering issue was this: the surgery for the female is rather invasive and takes longer to recover. For the males, it is short and simple. So I prefer to inflict the least trauma via surgery. Perhaps I am projecting, having gone through numerous surgeries and felt that they were horribly traumatizing and invasive. It took me several years to really recover from my first. The more cutting is done, the more violation of the organism.

I think this is now more a thing of a past, in straight forward cases female spay these days is performed through very small incision not longer then couple of centimeters, finished with 2-3 stitches on the outside. If done properly it can be almost bloodless. Indeed its more invasive then in males as it involves opening of abdominal cavity but doesn't necessarily have to be so traumatic. The patient is normally up and about on the same evening and in most of the cases next day you cant even tell they underwent surgery.


You raised very important point - by the end of the day there is always a price to pay for coercing other creatures to share our crazy world. The only right way I can think of is to navigate safely through give and take to some sort of middle ground where both participants can have fulfilling life OSIT.

 

[Miss.K]

You raised very important point - by the end of the day there is always a price to pay for coercing other creatures to share our crazy world. The only right way I can think of is to navigate safely through give and take to some sort of middle ground where both participants can have fulfilling life OSIT.

Agreed.
Though I might be a little emotional about the thought of my sweet little cat being cut into without her consent, I was talking to the vets today about it, and they said remove it all, the earlier the better, as there might still be some sexual behavior if done after the first heat, and I thought "better for who, the human or the cat?, what about stuffing the cat? then it wouldn't behave in any unwanted cat manner and just be pretty....mumble grumble"
I think that we humans often think most what is easiest for us. Though on the other hand a lot of people get too emotional about animals and end up being slaves to some chickens as Lierre Keith found herself being at some point, or something like that.

 

[Z...]

in this case the ligature is being placed only from the side of the uterus, and then the uterus with both horns is being removed after ligating the cervix. This way the ovaries still get the blood supply and don't atrophy, and therefore remain in the functioning state.

I was wondering about this, AFAIK most of the ovarian blood flow comes from the uterus not the ovarian stump.

 

[Z...]

here is the standard dog spay technique , I dont necessarily agree with certain steps as shown here and do them differently but overall this is how it looks.


WARNING for the squeamish - contains footage of actual surgery and internal organs

https://youtu.be/rEyZQyeFJFc


cat spay is much more simple and the incision even smaller:

https://youtu.be/LGIiES0jyRs

 

[Z...]

and wonder if the effects might be more breed specific combined with owner behaviors?

Totally agreed, this always plays very important role, especially the owner or quality of the relationship.

 

[hesperides]

I´ve always been against spaying as I thought of it being a contra-natura and rather egoistic way for solving problematic situation with our pets. Until I had enough.

Honestly, this concept has attracted many contretemps, even promoting the death of one of my cats and who knows what happened to the other kitties for whom I wasn´t able to find any owners in time, since a neighbour was threatening me he would call the police (one of my cats had the gorgeous idea to slide from the roof of his car down the windscreen). At the end, I had to find the best place I could for them in the open once their mum had be enough time with them to show how to hunt But I felt quite disturbed because I knew they were used to sleep and eat at home and weren´t strong enough for such a sudden change. Then there was also a dog I retrieved from the street, the most intelligent I ever had, who also died indirectly for not being operated because they are then more prone to escape. Until somebody put some poison in the area and a dozen dogs died from it in the most frightening way, still enduring great suffering during one or two whole days before they would die. I have learned this lesson the hard way and I had to learn forgiving myself for not having been able to pay more attention to their well-being.

But heck, by having pets, we've already crossed the line so the question is: how to make it easier for them to live in our world? Our boys SUFFERED rather dreadfully while intact; now they are actually more free to be themselves without that overlay of testosterone.

I´m glad you have shared your pov on this matter. I always had the feeling that neutralized animals would lose most part of their instinct, but you having so many dogs are in the best position to report the results. And making it easier for them makes now a lot of sense to me. It´s not about staying as nearer of the nature´s law that only counts, it´s also about the actual world condition. I missed that one, thank you.

 

[Miss.K]

I think we all would like to have our animals experience as much of the positive sides of natural species appropriate life as possible, but there is no question that it is necessary to limit overpopulation.
For me it is not being for or against. Or one can say I'm for because it is necessary, and against because I don't want to do anything to an animal that it wouldn't agree to if it knew what it was (that's the same with eating animals, which I do eat, but I think it would be nice if I could survive just on water)

So for me it is more how to find the best way to limit overpopulation. Not wether or not efforts to limit overpopulation should be made.

With female cats, I don't think that their sexual behavior is so bad if they are able to go outside and find what they are looking for. With an indoor cat it might be better for the cat not to have the urge. I have only tried that once, as my cat had her first heat, not too long ago which was mild and only two days, so unless it would get worse with time, I think I'd just leave her intact if she were to be an indoor cat, but I expect to move soon so she can get out.
(Indoor cats is another thing I'm for and against at the same time. For, because there are a lot of cats that are better off in an apartment than on the streets or in a shelter, and against because it is not really a life for a cat, not to be able to hunt) But I'd say that if it is possible to sterilize without removing hormone producing parts, as it is (though not so commonly used) then I think in my kittys case, that even though she might get hurt, from straying further from home, or might mate with a sick male etc. when in heat. It is worth the risk in order to not risking that is has a negative effect physically or emotionally to remove those parts.

Just like letting a cat outside at all is dangerous for the cat, but to me the risk seems worth the gain. And I think my cat would agree...

But I think that it is something where the best option is different from case to case. It is hard to get perfect in this world, so one has to choose the lesser evil in many cases

 

[Azur]

I apologize in advance if I don't make myself clear, and sound a little off-putting, but these are hard questions to answer, and I've been there too.

I've had a few pets in my lifetime, in fact, I'll say that my 2nd brother was an incredible dog, one of the most intelligent, protective, feeling, astute animals that I have ever known, and to this day has no equal that I've seen. And by animals, I include humans.

He was first with us as a young pup when I was 6, and near the end his body failed him to the point he couldn't walk anymore, and he pleaded with us to do something for him. I was 18 when we put him down.

There are so many, many good things and memories in between those years, and some absolutely incredible stories about this brother of mine, that I can't even start to say. I still miss him, almost 30 years later, I have tears rolling down my face as I type this.

I should also mention that for YEARS I was totally against neutering since it was a "violation of nature". But heck, by having pets, we've already crossed the line so the question is: how to make it easier for them to live in our world?

It's not up to 'us' to decide if we're making it easier for 'them'. That's an incredibly self-centered, self-justifying thought process, and you know it.

Yes, it is easier for 'them' in the situation where we decide to indenture them for our own pleasure and/or use. By indenture, I'm implying it's a one way karmic contract viz. the conditions WE impose on their natural life, or restrictions thereof.

Like pruning plants, we're trying to shape nature to our liking: these are 1D as the theory goes. And then pets, 2D, shaping them for our conditions, for same reasons. It gets a bit more complicated there, and even more dangerous where lying to ourselves justifies it.

I used to keep aquariums at one point in my life. The pinnacle for me was a beautiful 120 gal. planted tank. Took almost a full year for the plants and the ecosystem to establish itself. Kept many fish in there, all 'happy'. One of my fish, before I shut down the tank, and quit keeping pets, was 8 years old (older than my son), and had a life expectancy of 12-14 years. Others I kept in there had 1-2 years, some 5. All well managed. The general rule was one gallon of water for every inch-length of fish. I kept the fish population at 20 inches.

They were happy, or should have been, right? I found that these so-called 'simple' creatures were bored. That aquarium sat alone in a 20x20 room (reading room). People would walk in, admire it, the fish would do their thing.

At one point, my wife noticed that when I walked into the room, the fish would instantly converge into the closest corner where I was in the room. If I moved to the other side, they all followed. Even these so called 'dumb' creatures had cognitive abilities (because I was the one who fed them, and cleaned the water).

A while after that, because it was working me, I decided that I could not keep pets as prisoners anymore.

I'm not sure I'm elucidating my point, but there's a 'cost' involved when keeping pets. Yes, larger, smarter animals are certainly different than fish, but as you say, there's a line crossed and you better know it, and not forget it.

Our boys SUFFERED rather dreadfully while intact; now they are actually more free to be themselves without that overlay of testosterone.

"Free to be themselves", you say?

Who keeps 3D pets? And would the same logic apply?


Just some thoughts.

 

[JonnyRadar]

Unfortunately, the way the world is now, dogs and other domesticated animals don't live in some edenic state if we don't take them on as pets. They get stuck with abusive owners, in dirty holding facilities, or in the case of fish/birds etc. they die a slow death in a little plastic container in WalMart or PetSmart and then flushed when the new shipment comes in.

It'd be nice if the situation were different, but it's not. If the kind, compassionate people don't adopt pets, those animals will be left to a worse fate.

My 2 cents...