To spay or not to spay?

[Z...]

I should also mention that for YEARS I was totally against neutering since it was a "violation of nature". But heck, by having pets, we've already crossed the line so the question is: how to make it easier for them to live in our world?

It's not up to 'us' to decide if we're making it easier for 'them'. That's an incredibly self-centered, self-justifying thought process, and you know it.

i think you completely missed Laura's point.
You have to understand that the very nature of human relationship with animals is self-centered and self justifying. If you are having pets there is no way to escape this. Such is the nature of our reality on BBM. The animals have entered into this relationship for their own reasons, perhaps food and shelter and in the process they lost autonomy. If there ever was such thing like animal autonomy( concept of rights of any kind including animal rights is alien to nature on our planet) animals have sacrificed it when they entered into this relationship. I think its very unlikely that wolves approached humans just because they wanted to sit on their lap and fetch the ball.
So like everything else this has a price tag. OSIT. I wonder if some lizzies are currently having discussion about us and whether it is ethical to probe and poke us without our consent ;)

I dont see anything wrong in trying to make sense out of this strange relationship in the best possible way we can.

 

[Laura]

It's not up to 'us' to decide if we're making it easier for 'them'. That's an incredibly self-centered, self-justifying thought process, and you know it.

Azur, I don't know what kind of bubble you live in, but I live in the real world and have a huge weight of responsibility on me for not just my family, but also for all the critters who depend on me. External considering consists in have a great knowledge of a given situation and all the factors involved in it, (including individuals, whether human or not), and finding the path that makes life easier for all concerned. Obviously, you are more concerned about your false personality belief that retaining your reproductive potential is what makes you viable; I would suggest that such a concern is what you are projecting onto critters here as is evidenced by referring to a dog as a "brother". I think my record of caring for my children, my extended family, my dependent "fur kin", stands on its own. So dream on.

 

[Miss.K]

It's not up to 'us' to decide if we're making it easier for 'them'. That's an incredibly self-centered, self-justifying thought process, and you know it.

Yes, it is easier for 'them' in the situation where we decide to indenture them for our own pleasure and/or use. By indenture, I'm implying it's a one way karmic contract viz. the conditions WE impose on their natural life, or restrictions thereof.

I think there is something you are missing in your understanding of pets here. I think dogs and humans have started being friends, not because the human captured the dog, but because the dog started to hang around the human for food. Same with cats. If you feed a wild cat, or dog, you can become it's friend and it will move into your house of it's own free will for it's own pleasure/use. IMO there is nothing self centered or self justifying in having friendships with animals (or humans), or in letting an animal (or a human) become part of your family, and do your best to make their life good, as one would with ones children. Which of cause involves understanding as well as possible what kind of animal it is and what it needs to be happy. There is nothing wrong either with asking them to give back something for what they receive.

They were happy, or should have been, right? I found that these so-called 'simple' creatures were bored. That aquarium sat alone in a 20x20 room (reading room). People would walk in, admire it, the fish would do their thing.

At one point, my wife noticed that when I walked into the room, the fish would instantly converge into the closest corner where I was in the room. If I moved to the other side, they all followed. Even these so called 'dumb' creatures had cognitive abilities (because I was the one who fed them, and cleaned the water).

A while after that, because it was working me, I decided that I could not keep pets as prisoners anymore.

I think you are projecting here. The only thing that you know happens, is that the fish are intelligent enough to know that the thing they can see through the glass that is you, means food, so they follow the food-meaning thing they see. You have no information whatsoever if they are happy or sad or bored or having the most wonderful fish life a fish could want. That is all your own feelings and imaginations you project onto them.

Unfortunately, the way the world is now, dogs and other domesticated animals don't live in some edenic state if we don't take them on as pets. They get stuck with abusive owners, in dirty holding facilities, or in the case of fish/birds etc. they die a slow death in a little plastic container in WalMart or PetSmart and then flushed when the new shipment comes in.

It'd be nice if the situation were different, but it's not. If the kind, compassionate people don't adopt pets, those animals will be left to a worse fate.

Amen!

 

[SevenFeathers]

I was reading this thread again because my dog has recently gone through her cycle. As I mentioned before, she is easy to control and didn't mate. All well and good. But the previous couple of times and this time, she developed a phantom pregnancy, with swollen mammaries, and nesting with toys, etc. as if they were puppies. (She does a lot of collecting things all the time, so this is just extra) The time before this, I gave her a homeopathic remedy (pulsatilla) which helped, but not so much this time. Her mammaries are still swollen, going down slowly.

Has anyone dealt with this before? How did you handle it? Would spaying in this situation be a better choice?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Z...]

In my experience spaying can prevent multitude of problems that frequently plague intact bitches. Phantom pregnancy being one of them. This is likely going to escalate and if I were you I would definitely spay her sooner then later. As long as she is 1.5 year old.

 

[SevenFeathers]

Thanks for the information, Z. She'll soon be 3. Don't like the sound of the problem escalating or perhaps causing other problems. Thanks again.

 

[SevenFeathers]

In my experience spaying can prevent multitude of problems that frequently plague intact bitches. Phantom pregnancy being one of them. This is likely going to escalate and if I were you I would definitely spay her sooner then later. As long as she is 1.5 year old.

Speaking of other problems, Lena has been plagued with itchy skin and thin fur/bald spots since she was a pup. I had blamed it on an early vaccine which she received before I got her. But your mentioning other problems made me wonder about something. Before her last heat, she was doing pretty well, not too itchy and her fur was growing in. Then during this phantom pregnancy phase, she became very itchy again and lost a lot of fur. She looks terrible, but is full of energy. An internet search for hormonal imbalances in dogs led to articles which talk about conditions caused by too much estrogen (which the articles say is rare). Lena does have several of the symptoms: itching, darkening of skin, alopecia, size of mammaries and vulva. I am hoping that spaying will help her.

I scheduled an appointment for a spay (first one available in July), but the spay clinic wants proof of her rabies vaccination and heartworm test. She was vaccinated once for rabies in February 2015, so of course, that would not be considered "current". I hate to have her vaccinated again due to her itchy condition. Should I go ahead and get her vaccinated, following the protocol listed on the vaccination thread (Thuja 3 days before and after vaccine), or try to get a waiver (not likely at the clinic)?

 

[Keit]

I scheduled an appointment for a spay (first one available in July), but the spay clinic wants proof of her rabies vaccination and heartworm test. She was vaccinated once for rabies in February 2015, so of course, that would not be considered "current". I hate to have her vaccinated again due to her itchy condition. Should I go ahead and get her vaccinated, following the protocol listed on the vaccination thread (Thuja 3 days before and after vaccine), or try to get a waiver (not likely at the clinic)?

You live in the US, right? Check with your clinic or other vet clinics in your city regarding the rabies regulations in your state. Because some of the states already accepted the "3 years" rule regarding rabies vaccination. If so, your vaccine may still be valid.

 

[Keit]

Since your location appears to be Texas, USA, here what it says about Texas:

On February 27, 2003, the Texas Board of Health approved amendments to Texas Administrative Code Ch. 169, Rabies Control and Eradication. The rabies vaccination schedule will still require that dogs and cats be

vaccinated against rabies by 4 months of age and
be given a booster one year after the initial vaccination.
Following these first 2 vaccinations, dog & cats can be vaccinated at either 1-year or 3-year intervals, depending on the type of rabies vaccine used. Local ordinances may have more stringent requirements.

So you need to check what kind of vaccine your dog received.

 

[Z...]

3 years is now norm, and there is a push for 5 years but that will not happen overnight.

regarding itching - try Evening Primrose oil, one capsule of 500mg before bed - that usually takes care of the problem nicely.

 

[SevenFeathers]

I scheduled an appointment for a spay (first one available in July), but the spay clinic wants proof of her rabies vaccination and heartworm test. She was vaccinated once for rabies in February 2015, so of course, that would not be considered "current". I hate to have her vaccinated again due to her itchy condition. Should I go ahead and get her vaccinated, following the protocol listed on the vaccination thread (Thuja 3 days before and after vaccine), or try to get a waiver (not likely at the clinic)?

You live in the US, right? Check with your clinic or other vet clinics in your city regarding the rabies regulations in your state. Because some of the states already accepted the "3 years" rule regarding rabies vaccination. If so, your vaccine may still be valid.

Thanks, Keit. Unfortunately, she received the "1 year" version.

Z, I will try the primrose oil for itching. Thank you for the suggestion.

 

[Keit]

Thanks, Keit. Unfortunately, she received the "1 year" version.

Well, but it might be still worth checking if there is a general "3 year" rule in your area, as Z said. If so, you can ask your vet to do a titre instead of vaccine.

 

[Z...]

I just read this interesting paper which confirms that neutering is not a magical solution for behavioral problems. It also confimrs other data that show negative effect of neutering on bone development.

_http://www.atftc.com/health/SNBehaviorBoneDataSnapShot.pdf

Here is the summary:

Summary
The above data is just a small sample of the significant data that were determined in this study. By
using large a sample of dogs than any used previously to examine behavior in dogs
, we found significant correlations between neutering dogs and increases in aggression, fear and anxiety, and
excitability, regardless of the age at which the dog was neutered. There were also significant
correlations between neutering and decreases in trainability and responsiveness to cues. The other
three behavioral categories examined (miscellaneous behavior problems, attachment and attention
-seeking behavior, and separation-related behavior) showed some association with neutering, but
these differed more substantially depending on the age at which the dog was neutered. The overall
trend seen in all these behavioral data was that the earlier the dog was neutered, the more negative
the effect on the behavior. A difference in bone length was found between neutered and intact dogs,
suggesting that neutering has an effect on bone growth, which may be related to other orthopedic
effects documented in the literature. Examination of changes in bone length of gonadectomized dogs
is continuing.

 

[Z...]

An interesting thing to note.
In Traditional Chinese Medicine in addition to 14 main meridians which have their points on the surface of the body there are 6 - so called Extraordinary channels which are equally important for proper distribution of Chi or life force throughout the body. All of these channels stem from uterus or prostate gland in case of males.
Its a common consensus among TCVM practitioners that early spay ( in animals younger then 1.5 years) will have adverse effect on the overall vitality of the animal. This is pretty much in line with Dr. Becker's video I linked at the beginning.

 

[Z...]

More studies on the effect of spaying/neutering
_http://www.dogs4dogs.com/blog/2015/02/03/spaying-and-neutering-new-warnings-about-health-problems/