To spay or not to spay?

[SevenFeathers]

Though your pup's behavior is partly due to hormones, it is also a behavior that can be corrected with training. So if the girls are not in heat now, it's a good time to get him trained. Even dogs which have been neutered often act that way, so why not teach him what you want? Here's one video of a trainer talking about how he corrected that behavior with a 5 month old german shepard.

 

[Ant22]

It depends on the breed, but normally the females are in heat no more than twice a year. Knowing the signs and timing of these heats, separate them from Frankie accordingly. Maybe an other solution, while waiting for the fateful moment!

Thank you zak thing is, neither of the ladies are in heat, he just doesn’t seem to care that much and goes after them anyway. It may be an equivalent of teenage hormonal storm and I guess it's important to his overall development. If it's a necessary phase then I guess it may be best if he just suffers through it in separation for a bit more. But there's so much contradictory information online about it and despite what's been said in his thread the vet I asked said it's perfectly fine to have him neutered young.

 

[Ant22]

Four months is really young. I don't have much dog experience we are still learning from our first dog but I just wondered whether it is really sexually motivated or a behavior issue?

What Perlou suggested might be a good solution to give your family some time to think things through and try different approaches of arranging live with dogs. When our dog got into puberty we got him a hormone transplant that worked like a temporary castration. That gave us the chance to see what of his behavior was due to hormones and what were behavioral issues we had to solve by training. He was rather young too ( 6-7 months) but one of the vets I talked to said that small dogs (Terrier) hit puberty earlier. When the hormones wore off after about six months we had him neutered because we wanted to spare him the stress. and keep our own sanity

This is an interesting take on it, thank you Maiko I haven't thought about it possibly being a behavioural issue. I'll look into the hormone transplant and see if it's available here.

They're all mixed race doggies so it's impossible to get rough guidelines on their development. And given that they're just farm doggies kept to protect the household they don't get much disciplining. It's worth working on that side for sure if it could help them all.

 

[Ant22]

Though your pup's behavior is partly due to hormones, it is also a behavior that can be corrected with training. So if the girls are not in heat now, it's a good time to get him trained. Even dogs which have been neutered often act that way, so why not teach him what you want? Here's one video of a trainer talking about how he corrected that behavior with a 5 month old german shepard.

(...)

Thank you for this SevenFeathers Not only did it not occur to me it may be a behavioural issue, it didn't cross my mind that YouTube may have tutorials on dog training in this area. Although I grew up around doggies I've never owned one. I just made friends with the ones we had at the farm so I guess I'm a newbie to any form of dog training!

 

[scotseeker]

Thank you for this SevenFeathers Not only did it not occur to me it may be a behavioural issue, it didn't cross my mind that YouTube may have tutorials on dog training in this area. Although I grew up around doggies I've never owned one. I just made friends with the ones we had at the farm so I guess I'm a newbie to any form of dog training!

A couple of things regarding young male dogs. It is not unusual for them to be enamored with females and even other male dogs, hormones are kicking in and will be for a while. You can probably find some good videos about training him through this period, here are a couple of suggestions as well. It is really important that he get lots of exercise, at least twice daily, especially before training sessions. They are much calmer and more attentive after a long walk or workout at the park. It is also important to let him know when he is behaving well, a lot of good boys and I carry around treats in my pocket (kibble) and give them when they are doing really well. I have two Rottweilers, praise and a few treats go a long way. Their own kibble works well enough for treats.

On the neuter issue, both my vet and my breeder say to wait until at least one year, better at two if it is tolerable. The reason is that dogs need their hormones for growth of bones, ligaments, tendons, etc. If a dog (especially large breed dogs) gets spayed or neutered before 1 year, the chance of ligament tears rises dramatically. I had a Rottweiler that was spayed at 4 months and tore both rear knee cruciate ligaments! A very expensive repair.

Hope that helps some, I know it can be trying with a very amorous male. Patience is key, yelling will only excite him.

 

[Keit]

They're all mixed race doggies so it's impossible to get rough guidelines on their development. And given that they're just farm doggies kept to protect the household they don't get much disciplining. It's worth working on that side for sure if it could help them all.

There is a new research that came out regarding early castrating of mixed breed dogs.

The research analyzed doggies for 15 years, and it showed that the larger the dog is going to be, the higher the risk for their health if they are castrated too early.

The early neutering of male and female dogs and its relationship to an increased risk of joint disorders and some cancers has recently become a concern, raising questions about the standard practice in the U.S. and much of Europe of neutering by 6 months of age.

A noteworthy recent finding from this center is that there are major breed differences with small-dog breeds generally showing little vulnerability to neutering compared with breeds of larger body size.

These findings on purebreds raise questions for dog owners and veterinarians about mixed-breed dogs. The purpose of this study was to examine a sample of mixed breed dogs of five weight categories using the same veterinary hospital database and diagnostic criteria for joint disorders and cancers as used in the newly published paper on 35 breeds and previous papers on the Golden Retriever, Labrador Retriever, and German Shepherd Dog.

The weight categories were <10 kg (739 cases), 10–19 kg (546 cases), 20–29 kg (992 cases), 30–39 kg (604 cases), and over 40 kg (258 cases). Males and females were analyzed separately, as were various ages at neutering. The joint disorders examined were hip dysplasia, cranial cruciate ligament tear or rupture, and elbow dysplasia. The cancers were lymphoma, mast cell tumor, hemangiosarcoma, and osteosarcoma.

There was no significant increased occurrence of one or more cancers, compared with intact dogs, in any weight category. However, in the three categories of dogs weighing 20 kg or more, neutering before 1 year generally was significantly associated with risks of one or more joint disorders above that of dogs left intact, commonly to 3 times the level of intact dogs, with sex differences in the degrees of joint disorders associated with neutering.

For the dogs in the two weight categories <20 kg, no increased risks were found for joint disorders. This information can be useful to dog caregivers in deciding on the age at which to neuter specific dogs, and for veterinarians offering guidance to pet owners.

So it also depends on the size the doggie will be. But in any case, castrating at 4 months is definitely too early. There is also research that shows that behavioral problems are not being corrected with castration, and can actually become worse. But each case is different. In some cases it does help. But in general, it is always good to wait until the dog has reached full musculoskeletal maturity.

There is a possibility of vasectomy instead of castration, but most vets are self-taught how to do it, or don't know how to, and the dog can breed up to two months afterwards anyway, so there is still a need for seperation.

There are zink injections, that is a chemical castration, and in this case the hormones remain present, but are reduced by about 50%.

So in your case training is probably the optimal way to go.

 

[PERLOU]

Un grand merci Keit ... LOVE

Thank you very much, Keit... LOVE

 

[Ant22]

So it also depends on the size the doggie will be. But in any case, castrating at 4 months is definitely too early. There is also research that shows that behavioral problems are not being corrected with castration, and can actually become worse. But each case is different. In some cases it does help. But in general, it is always good to wait until the dog has reached full musculoskeletal maturity.

There is a possibility of vasectomy instead of castration, but most vets are self-taught how to do it, or don't know how to, and the dog can breed up to two months afterwards anyway, so there is still a need for seperation.

There are zink injections, that is a chemical castration, and in this case the hormones remain present, but are reduced by about 50%.

So in your case training is probably the optimal way to go.

Thank you Keit We've decided Frankie will keep his male parts until he's older and in the meantime he'll get some behavioural training. At this stage he doesn't even respond when he's called unless he wants to so I guess this will be a totally greenfield project for me

I've never trained a doggy but I've been watching training videos since it was pointed out to me here that it may be a behavioural issue rather than a hormonal one. Let's see if I can turn this free spirit into a perfect gentleman. The girls will get some training too as they're not exactly super disciplined either.

 

[Jones]

I've never trained a doggy but I've been watching training videos since it was pointed out to me here that it may be a behavioural issue rather than a hormonal one. Let's see if I can turn this free spirit into a perfect gentleman. The girls will get some training too as they're not exactly super disciplined either.

Here's a foundational training exercise that you might find helpful. It's one of my favourites and an 8 week old puppy can start with it - and the foundations it lays down helps all other training go much smoother. The major change I make to it is that I don't use common words like 'yes' or 'ok' as the release cue. Pick a word that is rarer to avoid inadvertently releasing a dog at the wrong time - I heard once of someone using 'ok' as a release and he answered someone else that he was talking to and accidentally released his dog to chase a cat that it was eyeing off! (Mine was bingo, but other's that I know used free, party, play or yahoo). The good thing about training a release word in this way is that it's not necessary to teach stay as a separate exercise - rather the dog is just released from a command. If you're training three dogs, you can use three different release words, though each dog will need to be trained independently and separately in this exercise to reduce other distractions. It's a great exercise for introducing the idea of impulse control and focus in the face of distractions.

 

[Z...]

 

[Gallo]

I didn't read the whole conversation, forgive me.
I have a beautiful mongrel shepherd who is exceptional in his kindness. He did 3 litters last summer for his 4th birthday. Today, more than before, he goes crazy when the bitches are in heat. Locked in the house, he managed to open the window, eat the shutters and break the glass. I made an appointment to have him neutered, but I couldn't take him. Well, I resigned myself to cutting him. This dog is like my first son, and really, I can't take away what makes him a living being. Even a happy dog's life is about obeying. He has to do everything his master tells him. So if on top of that you cut off his balls, I don't think it's right. That is all.

 

[Z...]

I didn't read the whole conversation, forgive me.
I have a beautiful mongrel shepherd who is exceptional in his kindness. He did 3 litters last summer for his 4th birthday. Today, more than before, he goes crazy when the bitches are in heat. Locked in the house, he managed to open the window, eat the shutters and break the glass. I made an appointment to have him neutered, but I couldn't take him. Well, I resigned myself to cutting him. This dog is like my first son, and really, I can't take away what makes him a living being. Even a happy dog's life is about obeying. He has to do everything his master tells him. So if on top of that you cut off his balls, I don't think it's right. That is all.

Well your story illustrates that in case of some dogs it is more cruel to leave them intact then castrate them.
And this is especially true for cats.

 

[Gallo]

I do not agree.Because from now on, I'll let him roam as he pleases and will surely put a GPS collar on him.... and keep him intact.

 

[PERLOU]

Il faut surtout penser aux portées de chatons abandonnés à leurs tristes sorts...
Mes 4 chatonnes et ma petite York (comme toutes mes petites feelles) ont toutes été stérilisées car il a des risques de cancer pour Elles...
Par contre mes deux Yorks mâles Clovis et Ugo n'ont pas été castrés mais ils étaient en laisse quand je sortais ou sous ma surveillance quand ils étaient lâchés à l'extérieur dans nos jardins (famille et amis)...

We must especially think of the litters of kittens abandoned to their sad fates...
My 4 kittens and my little York (like all my little feelles) have all been sterilized because he has cancer risks for them...
On the other hand, my two male Yorks Clovis and Ugo were not neutered but they were on a leash when I went out or under my supervision when they were released outside in our gardens (family and friends)...

 

[Z...]

More than 30 veterinary surgeon have signed a letter in the current issue of 'Veterinary Record' drawing attention to the health risks involved with routine neutering of dogs, a procedure that until recently was considered fairly harmless. Now we know better. It turns out that neutering a healthy dog can increase the risk of developing cancer, allergies, thyroid disease, arthritis, ligament disease and a long list of other serious health problems.

Why exactly are switched on vets no longer recommending routine neutering of dogs?

10 years ago we had no idea that neutering could be dangerous. Now we know that neutering (of both male and female dogs) can increase the risk of a long list of chronic diseases and of cancer. The mechanism behind this, according to renowned specialist Michelle Kutzler from Oregon University, has to do with abnormal levels of the hormone LH in neutered dogs: "Gonad removal prevents the feedback of estrogen and testosterone on the pituitary and hypothalamus. As a result, luteinizing hormone (LH) is continuously elevated at supraphysiologic concentrations. Constant activation of LH receptors in the skin, thyroid, adrenal glands, urinary bladder, lymphocytes, ligaments, etc. increases the dog’s lifetime risk for developing chronic disease and cancer."

This is a significant change in the way we keep dogs and one that dog carers and vets will be talking about in the years to come. You can help save dogs' lives by spreading the word. Now that the information is available, let's make sure everybody knows - for the sake of our dogs