UFOs are fake, so y'all better straighten up!

[Beau]

I agree that Neil is running a superiority program, but that statement is nor racist. The key word here is 'the', which signifies a subset of a particular class, in this case "black people". He could have just as well said "the white suburbanites who listen to their rap music everyday", which would also not be racist. Methinks you guys are running, if I may coin a term, the "Al Sharpton program", which comes from using an ambiguous definition of racism (which I always thought was the doctrine that any race was superior to any other, whether morally, intellectually, physically, or otherwise).

That is decidedly Clinton-esque! You have to agree that it was Neil who implied that race was important, or else why would he have mentioned race at all? He could have just said "My neighbors etc...". Like anart said, debating what you are saying is simply too legalistic. And the fact is, I never specifically said Neil was being racist. Rather, he was bringing up race when their was no need to, unless it was something that mattered to him. It's not racist, but implies judgment based on factors other than a person's character.

 

[Neil]

This is beginning to remind me of when lyra wrote on the forum. Let me speak before this gets any more out of hand than it already is.

Your comment about wanting to shoot their stereo I interpreted in a light-hearted way, because I know that when I get angry sometimes I also think irrational, slightly comedic (in retrospect), heat-of-the-moment thoughts; but in stable people such thoughts remain just that and aren't realised.

It wasn't meant to be a serious threat. However, that doesn't say much for my Work when I am so influenced by such things. If we were allowed on 4th density with this sort of attitude, I imagine it would create a lot of chaos because we would be saying "this is annoying, that is annoying, and it needs to GO!" We might think it is those 3rd density entities that are being annoying and need to go. So while it may be acceptable for normal people to engage in these "harmless violent thoughts," it is a sign of inconsistency in the Work. It is just one of the rigors of doing Work; I shouldnt've said it.

which reminds me how so called 'intellectuals' often have a great lack of common sense, also called street smarts)

Yeah, I've noticed that too. I've tried to stay out of the camp, but there is something about the intellectual "way" which seems to isolate one in a world of mathematical equations surrounded by a cozy illusion of the way the world works. I wonder if it is related to the overactivation of the intellectual chakras and relative neglect of the others.

Also, for the past couple of days I've been experimenting with wearing EMF shielding clothes that have also had interesting results. I got the clothing at _lessemf.com and will start a thread on it in the diet and health section soon.

Ok, I await your post.

When they would drive up behind me on the road, or sit next to me at a traffic light, I would feel the heat rising from my solar plexus and fantasies of having a turret gun on top of my van and just blowing them off the road floated through my mind... !!!

Thanks for understanding Laura, but you wouldn't do this now would you? It seems you would be so far along on your work that this might make you uncomfortable, but your mind wouldn't be subject to random violent thoughts.

So, I began meditating on silence. I simply "imagined" or visualized being in my home surrounded by the sounds of nature. Pretty soon, the guy's wife left him and wiped out his bank account; he lost his trailer, his land, his stereo, and all was quiet again.

Strange how the universe operates, eh?

Huh, I had something similar happen to me at my dad's. The trailer next door had been rented out by my uncle and these two young people moved in and started playing a bunch of rap music and having all of these drinking parties with their friends(one of which happened to be a guy who used to bully me in school). After a while, a lot of trash started accumulating around their house and they were mad at me for riding my motorcycle around our yard. I got sick of them and wished they would just go away. About two weeks later, one of the tenants got drunk and crashed his car into a telephone pole. The cops got him and they had a big money shortage for paying the rent and it looked like they were going to have to move out. I left before I found out what eventually became of it. When I found out, I wasn't sure whether to be glad or guilty, because the guy kind of hurt himself and part of me felt like I had somehow caused this to happen. Probably nothing, but it was weird.

It's ignorant to expect people to be like you, especially young kids at college.

I never did. That's how I got to be like this:

Pretending you 'don't fit' doesn't really make much sense - if you really didn't fit - you wouldn't be there/here.

I don't fit, with people. I'm not saying "well, I'm a Wanderer and I've done all of this before and I don't need to do any Work because you won't listen to me..." I am quite certain all of this is being shown to me for a reason; to drive home the price of ignorance, of greed, and entropy. In my opinion, I am able to see these things because I wanted to eliminate these qualities from myself, and the only way to do so was to experience them and their consequences firsthand. People in general do not see anything outside of the normal "fun" of 3D. How many people can you talk about Reality with in plain honest terms outside of this forum? They tune you out, pretend you don't exist, or attack your character or faith or whatever. It really bothers me.

In fact, it's worse, since they do not judge you so harshly for your choices.

You do not know this. Maybe they would and maybe they wouldn't; if they even knew what my real choices were. However, I will concede that I am overly judgemental due to the superiority program.

I have been in the same "place" as all the people you really don't care for.

So? You're not there now. I am smart enough to realize that people do change, you know. All I can say is, I hope you're the rule and not the exception.

It's lumping a group of people together because of the actions of a few.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. So now you're saying because I mentioned "the black people next door" that I'm against all black people because they play music that annoys me? You're seeing something that simply doesn't exist! If it came across that I was accusing the black race; I'm sorry, that was not my intention. If anything, I was lapsing into my regional speech where blacks are a minority and tend to travel, live, and congregate together. Since there aren't many blacks in our neighborhood, and we grow up in spereate areas, when we talk about them we always talk about the black people doing such and such.I was not referring to black people in general, I was referring to the black people next door and that was my ONLY intention. Plus, I don't know their names. And FYI, almost every black person I've met enjoys rap music, but not necessairly in a way that annoys me.

It's not objective. Musical preferences are totally subjective. I for one have no problem listening to rap and concentrating. To each his/her own.

I think T_D_R is referring to a study where, statistically, classical and jazz music can help you focus. My teachers talked about it in school, and told the kids they were allowed to listen to classical music in class. But yes, to each his own, it's nice that rap doesn't bother you.

Their is a difference. Neil is not asleep, he is supposed to be waking up and understanding the way people are and his own machine.

[sarcasm=on] You know, I should've just waited until I was in my mid-twenties before I sought to study any of this stuff because I am obviously of the age where I'm supposed to be stupid and not care about anything besides my own happiness. I could go home to my nice wife in my nice peaceful flat, stare in disbelief at the garden variety psychopaths at work, and go through nice leisurely strolls in the forest...[/sarcasm]

Ahem...

In all seriousness, I need to self observe to find higher balance, but it is difficult to make progress when so many things are hitting me at once. There does seem to be some fundamental "software issues" which have been behind all of my concerns in this thread.

It was his feeling of superiority over others who have not chosen to awaken that is the problem here, not the personalities which he is required to live with.

I must agree with this. I have known about this for some time with varying degrees of awareness, and it is a major emotional barrier which must be corrected. This is also refrenced in my What to do with Normal People thread. I guess now is the time to work on it.

actually, (just a bit of trivia here), Blondie was one artist that made rap popular. So it's not exclusively a "black" thing

I never said it was! And yes, white people do listen to a lot more rap music than blacks because there are so many more of them. The black people next door listening to rap just happened to be black!

In fact, some of the most offensive acts of atmospheric pollution via rap music are perpetrated by snotty "white kids" in their fancy boom-boom cars.

Atmospheric pollution? That's an interesting way of putting it. Back home there were a lot of kids who would put these $2000 stereos in their cars that were capable of making the door panels visibly vibrate. And no beau, they weren't black. I was more tolerant of that, because it was short-lived. My best friend got a stereo like that and listens to heavy metal. I can only cope with it for so long, but he understands. I don't know why he bought such a thing, but whatever; as long as he doesn't bother me with it.

I agree that Neil is running a superiority program, but that statement is nor racist. The key word here is 'the', which signifies a subset of a particular class, in this case "black people". He could have just as well said "the white suburbanites who listen to their rap music everyday", which would also not be racist.

Well, I'm glad you see what I was trying to say, even if it came out wrong somehow, but anart has labled you as "legalistic" so I'm just going to lay off. I have stated my case. If it is sufficient, we can drop it, it is not, it's not.

Neil, has it ever occurfed to you to just ask them to turn their music down? If they don't (and especially if their so selfish as to turn it up) you can always complain? It may be better to just learn to tune it out, because the option to complain may not always be open in the future.

One day it was overwhelmingly loud and someone yelled at them to turn that S*** off which of course they didn't listen to. Marco (an acquaintance) and I and a few other people were standing in the hall deciding whether or not we should get administration involved or not. I asked Marco to ask them to turn it down because he is a very friendly guy and gets along well with people, and they didn't initially; but after they finished their song they did turn it down to a level which was still clearly audible but not overwhelming. They haven't played it that loud since, and usually when they play it I just go outside. On Tuesday, I had woken up to it; it wasn't that loud but I could still understand what they were saying. It just wasn't the best thing to wake up to. It was playing when I was writing my post, and I was trying to focus on what beau was asking of me, so with all of this spinning in my head, the shoot the stereo thought came down onto the keyboard. We have "Quiet Hours" from 10PM to 6AM on weekdays, but other than that, you're allowed to make almost as much noise as you want. Depending on how excessive it is, you can complain, but no one else seems to mind it since that one day. I don't want to report it to the RA because it makes me look like the bad guy. I would rather try to just be inconspicuous and try to please everyone rather than "ruining their fun" and provoking some sort of retalitory action. My lone complaint could get me labled as a party crasher, old fart, book fag, or whatever they come up with and they might get their friends together and teach me a lesson. I would rather not take the risk and provoke a war.

You could also play a "role" and just go along with it, after all why such a strong reaction to being called a "deusch", what do you care?

Most of the time I do play a "role" or I would be annoyed a lot more than I am. After seeing the way he was manipulating my roommate with his name-calling, I saw my incorporation into the game as a threat to my soverignty. Perhaps this is the "I'm too good for that" program running again, but I refuse to use such unintelligent language just for the sake of sounding "cool."

SAO-Well, it is true that the kids who picked on me when I was younger did listen to rap music, so that could have something to do with it. They don't remind me of them though. One of the black guys came over and asked me some questions about some homework, and he's really a fairly nice guy, but he loves that music, and so do his friends. And they love it loud. I personally like rock, and I also have a stereo hooked up to my computer, but I never use it. I have headphones; most people don't know I listen to music at all. Ok, I can't say I've never used my stereo, I did blare a SOTT podcast once to see what would happen. But, it was mostly drowned out by Halo 2 across the hall. I've actually heard a couple of rap songs that were ok, but most of it is gang-bangers and horny people. In my opinion, the most important part of a song is it's lyrics; does it have a meaning? Does it touch your heart? Better be careful those lyrics don't cause you to disassociate though.

Don't let people's "habits" and "programs" make you assume that this is all there is to them.

Well, I think everybody can potentially teach you something, but I tend to forget this when my pet peeves are violated. Another program that needs to be overidden.

But for a little perspective, consider how "superior" the C's, if they exist, would be from you.

I've often considered a WWCD approach to life. (What Would the Cassiopaeans do) And because of this superiority program; I would be tempted to bow down and worship them. The superiority thing has been around for a long time. I don't know where it came from and never wanted to get rid of it. When I was in middle school, I would not consider anyone with intellect I percieved as lower than mine worthy of my attention. In addition, when I met someone with superior intellect, I thought myself as inferior, and thus I must shut up and listen to their words of wisdom and move up the ladder so to speak. If the Reptoids would've come down during that time and started telling me stuff and showing off their cool powers, I probably would've willingly done whatever they asked in the interest of "gaining" superiority. This perception changed when some friendly people of lower intellect came into my life and helped me through a tough spot. Did this eliminate the program? No, I changed the criterion for superiority from intelligence to awareness. I suppose at the time, this program helped me succeed in the world of academia. When I first started reading the wave series, a chapter about programming caught my attention. Laura says something to the effect of "people who don't think they are programmed are programmed the most." Well, I fell into that trap I thought I was too smart to be programmed, and when I read further about Gurdjieff; I began to entertain the possibilitiy that some of my views might be programs. And then I shelved it. Well, the superiority thing continued more subconsciously after that, and you might be able to tell that the program was running in my early posts in relationship to Laura. I tried really hard to pay Laura verbal tribute and try to follow every little thing that she said because she had superior awareness and I was therefore an inferior being. As I got more comfortable here, I began to see everyone as equals and the program became more unnoticiable. It really is a nasty program, because if we extrapolate this to a state of me attaining super awareness, how will I treat everyone then? I do not like this. It is good that people read into this program or I wouldnt've ever analyzed it consciously. How odd, the black people just started listening to classical music. I wonder if it is a sign...

Referring to the race at all indicates a racial bias, whether it is subconscious or not.

Well, if you want to argue that I'm a subconscious racist, there's really no way that I can affirm or deny that statement. My environment has affected the way I speak and view things, so how do I know?

 

[Kesdjan]

Rather, he was bringing up race when their was no need to, unless it was something that mattered to him. It's not racist, but implies judgment based on factors other than a person's character.

Okay, I see what your saying now. This seems like a very subtle program that practically everyone has.

Well, if you want to argue that I'm a subconscious racist, there's really no way that I can affirm or deny that statement.

Oh yes there is.

 

[Third_Density_Resident]

Well for the record Neil, I didn't think your statement about the black people and their rap-music playing every day was offensive at all. That part was a mere statement of fact.

Excuse me? What fact? You are being just as short-sighted as Neil. I see more white folks blasting rap through their car stereos these days than anyone. That's not the point though. His statement was offensive. It's lumping a group of people together because of the actions of a few.

As Kesdjan rightly pointed out, the use of the definite article "the" preceding the words "black people" prevents the above statement from "lumping a group of people together". By using the word "the", I was referring to THAT specific group of black people that Neil was talking about, and NOT black people in general. It is an important difference, and one that completely changes the implications which you have incorrectly read into it. If this fails to convince you, let's try an analogy. Let's say I point to a group of trees in my neighbours' garden and tell someone, "The trees are really sick; they must have some kind of disease." In such a statement, I'm not suggesting that ALL trees have a disease by any means. If I had just come out and said, "Trees are really sick; they must have some kind of disease", then that WOULD suggest that ALL trees are sick, because I hadn't used the word "the" before the word "trees".

But in any case, I have to agree with people here that the use of the words "black people" was a totally unnecessary detail -- it had absolutely no relevance to the argument that Neil was trying to make. I still don't necessarily think it was a subconscious racist remark (it could have been); but that it was simply irrelevant. People seemingly have an inherent suspicion in assuming the worst when someone includes details that are not relevant to an argument. Sometimes it may be a sign of subconscious (or indeed conscious) prejudice or whatever; but in many cases it may be nothing more than irrelevant detail (which is likely in someone who gives too much detail in ALL facets of conversation).

As for rap music itself, I am well aware that it is not just the domain of black people. I never made that association in the first place (as I have just demonstrated).

Your comment about wanting to shoot their stereo I interpreted in a light-hearted way, because I know that when I get angry sometimes I also think irrational, slightly comedic (in retrospect), heat-of-the-moment thoughts;

That's contradictory. It's not light-hearted if you are in the heat of the moment. It means one is angry, they are identifying with the programs that have been triggered.

You misread what I wrote. I never implied that being in the heat of the moment is light-hearted. I said that I INTERPRETED the comment as light-hearted, in retrospect. But "light-hearted" is probably not the right word, in any case. Perhaps "unserious" would have been better, if that is a word.

but in stable people such thoughts remain just that and aren't realised. It is obviously a flaw, and one that I need to address, but it doesn't affect anyone outside of myself. It also has nothing to do with the kind of people who incite this anger -- it is invariably due to one thing called NOISE or disturbance.

First, you are assuming that those emotions don't affect anyone else. I think you're projecting here. You may not let if affect your disposition, but certainly someone else may develop an attitude towards others which will come out in direct communication in one way or the other, whether subtle or not.

I completely agree. And if you placed my comments into their proper context, you would have realised that I have implicity acknowledged this already in my previous post, when I said that I need to address these shortcomings of mine. But as you have seen, no one's perfect. You read Laura's 'comedic' thoughts about a turret-gun on top of her van to blast those rap-music-playing people away.

It is an objective fact that certain types of music are far more conducive to concentration than others. Rap music is generally NOT one of these types of music, by the way, but I'm sure you already guessed that.

It's not objective. Musical preferences are totally subjective. I for one have no problem listening to rap and concentrating. To each his/her own.

I never said that musical preferences weren't totally subjective. Of course they are. But, if you had read what I wrote more carefully, you would see that I was referring to music in the context of concentration. I'm sure there are exceptions to the rule -- there nearly always are -- but it has been shown in quite a few scientific experiments that certain types of music are far more conducive to learning than others. This is a FACT. Case in point: the Mozart effect. This effect is not as potent as the media and many other organisations have claimed in the past since it doesn't have long-lasting effects -- but it has been shown to be quite effective WHILE classical music is playing and shortly thereafter. Plants too have shown better growth while classical music is played nearby compared with other forms of music. This data is concordant with Gurdjieff's ideas about 'objective art'. Music, being art, can also have subjective and objective forms. Hence, it is conceivable that some kinds of music will objectively create a better learning environment in others, irrespective of one's personal, leisure-oriented preferences.

I don't have much of a problem asking someone to turn their music down if it too loud, and in all the times I've done this I've never came across anyone who wasn't willing to do so. "Hey, can you please turn it down," works pretty good, even if it needs to be done on multiple occasions.

Well, I have experienced real cretins who, when you ask them to "turn it down," actually turn it louder. When we lived out in the country in FL, one of these types bought the land (6 acres) next door and hauled in a big mobile home and proceeded to play music so loud that my bed shook 6 acres away. We repeatedly asked them to turn it down, and they repeatedly turned it louder. Then, they would get out there in the middle of the night and start shooting!

So, one night after this started again, I went out with a hammer and a big metal washtub and began banging on it by the fence between the properties. They came rushing out and demanded to know why I was messing up their music. I told them their music was messing up my sleep, that we had moved to the country for peace and quiet. The guy said "Well, I moved out here so I could play my music as loud as I want and that's what I'm gonna do!"

I know exactly how this feels. I live in an area with large acreage (6-7 acre) blocks. Two sets of neighbours take it upon themselves to ride around on their noisy dirt bikes as often and as they please, and the noise is unbearable at times. Because of certain incidents in the past, I know that telling them to restrict their riding times or whatever would NOT be greeted with civility. If anything, it would only aggravate the situation and make things ten times worse. The main argument they have is very much along the lines of "we moved out here so we could ride our bikes as much as we want!" I have contemplated going to the edge of the property and turning on the lawn-mower and just leaving it there at night to make the point that what they're doing is just as inconsiderate and unpleasant as the lawn-mower. I've not done this yet, but at times it gets very tempting. And during the worst times of noise, when I'm sitting in my room trying to study or concentrate on something, I have some not-very-nice thoughts about bike accidents and what-not. It just goes to show that heat-of-the-moment ideas can be really nasty, and later on when you've calmed down you wouldn't dream of thinking such things. I think I'll head on over to the Negative Emotional Center forum.

So, I began meditating on silence. I simply "imagined" or visualized being in my home surrounded by the sounds of nature. Pretty soon, the guy's wife left him and wiped out his bank account; he lost his trailer, his land, his stereo, and all was quiet again.

I think I'll give this idea a go! But it does sound a lot like ideas promoted in the book "The Secret" does it not?

 

[anart]

This is beginning to remind me of when lyra wrote on the forum. Let me speak before this gets any more out of hand than it already is.

Now that's quite the interesting reference.

which reminds me how so called 'intellectuals' often have a great lack of common sense, also called street smarts)

Yeah, I've noticed that too. I've tried to stay out of the camp, but there is something about the intellectual "way" which seems to isolate one in a world of mathematical equations surrounded by a cozy illusion of the way the world works. I wonder if it is related to the overactivation of the intellectual chakras and relative neglect of the others.

I'm interested in how you've tried to stay out of that camp. Intellectual chakras???

Pretending you 'don't fit' doesn't really make much sense - if you really didn't fit - you wouldn't be there/here.

I don't fit, with people. I'm not saying "well, I'm a Wanderer and I've done all of this before and I don't need to do any Work because you won't listen to me..." I am quite certain all of this is being shown to me for a reason; to drive home the price of ignorance, of greed, and entropy. In my opinion, I am able to see these things because I wanted to eliminate these qualities from myself, and the only way to do so was to experience them and their consequences firsthand.

Interesting, so you're saying you've never experienced these qualities and their consequences first hand before, and that you 'don't fit with people'? How can you eliminate these qualities from yourself if you've never experienced them first hand before?

People in general do not see anything outside of the normal "fun" of 3D. How many people can you talk about Reality with in plain honest terms outside of this forum? They tune you out, pretend you don't exist, or attack your character or faith or whatever. It really bothers me.

Most 'people in general' do not see anything outside of normal 3D - fun has very, very little to do with it. I don't try to talk to people who do not have a burning, life-changing desire to awaken about such things - it would be 'rude'.

In fact, it's worse, since they do not judge you so harshly for your choices.

You do not know this. Maybe they would and maybe they wouldn't; if they even knew what my real choices were.

Ahh, but we know that you do judge them - that is the difference. At least they have a 'maybe' in the equation.

It's lumping a group of people together because of the actions of a few.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. So now you're saying because I mentioned "the black people next door" that I'm against all black people because they play music that annoys me?

Nope, he's just saying that you see the people as BLACK before seeing them as people.

You're seeing something that simply doesn't exist!

Nope, you're misinterpreting what he's seeing. You're the one who automatically identified them as black - why was that fact even vaguely relevant?

If it came across that I was accusing the black race; I'm sorry, that was not my intention. If anything, I was lapsing into my regional speech where blacks are a minority and tend to travel, live, and congregate together. Since there aren't many blacks in our neighborhood, and we grow up in spereate areas, when we talk about them we always talk about the black people doing such and such.I was not referring to black people in general, I was referring to the black people next door and that was my ONLY intention. Plus, I don't know their names.

Uhhmmmmm - are you serious? You are evidencing some serious racial discrimination and programming here -if you can't see that, then something is very wrong.

It's not objective. Musical preferences are totally subjective. I for one have no problem listening to rap and concentrating. To each his/her own.

I think T_D_R is referring to a study where, statistically, classical and jazz music can help you focus.

Let me just conjecture on who conducted this study..... white people? Your programming is so deep you can't even begin to see it.

Their is a difference. Neil is not asleep, he is supposed to be waking up and understanding the way people are and his own machine.

[sarcasm=on] You know, I should've just waited until I was in my mid-twenties before I sought to study any of this stuff because I am obviously of the age where I'm supposed to be stupid and not care about anything besides my own happiness. I could go home to my nice wife in my nice peaceful flat, stare in disbelief at the garden variety psychopaths at work, and go through nice leisurely strolls in the forest...[/sarcasm]

Cute. Sarcasm = aggression. That is a simple enough equation for you. So, what is REALLY going on behind this Neil 'persona' that you're presenting. Flat? What American teenager calls an apartment a flat?

We have "Quiet Hours" from 10PM to 6AM on weekdays, but other than that, you're allowed to make almost as much noise as you want.

Yep, standard for a dorm, it was the same when I was in college.

I would rather try to just be inconspicuous and try to please everyone rather than "ruining their fun" and provoking some sort of retalitory action. My lone complaint could get me labled as a party crasher, old fart, book fag, or whatever they come up with and they might get their friends together and teach me a lesson. I would rather not take the risk and provoke a war.... Most of the time I do play a "role" or I would be annoyed a lot more than I am.

This is a fascinating statement since up until now you've told us that you've been quite confrontational and judgmental to those around you. Why the turnaround - or is it just that the explanation has turned around?

and I also have a stereo hooked up to my computer, but I never use it. I have headphones; most people don't know I listen to music at all. Ok, I can't say I've never used my stereo, I did blare a SOTT podcast once to see what would happen. But, it was mostly drowned out by Halo 2 across the hall.

Why am I finding it harder and harder to believe you? (rhetorical question)

I've actually heard a couple of rap songs that were ok, but most of it is gang-bangers and horny people. In my opinion, the most important part of a song is it's lyrics; does it have a meaning? Does it touch your heart? Better be careful those lyrics don't cause you to disassociate though.

Interesting, I usually find that the most important part of a song is the melody and rhythm - unless the lyrics are about killing babies for fun, the melody and rhythm pretty much hook me.

I've often considered a WWCD approach to life. (What Would the Cassiopaeans do) And because of this superiority program; I would be tempted to bow down and worship them.

Apologies, but what an odd way to look at things. The C's do not reside in 3D - how could you ever 'do what they do'? Have you not read the transcripts in which they explicitly state to not deify them?

I find this complete post to be quite intriguing. Something, Neil, is not right in the 'state of Denmark' - now, what might that be? (another rhetorical question)

 

[anart]

I still don't necessarily think it was a subconscious racist remark (it could have been); but that it was simply irrelevant. People seemingly have an inherent suspicion in assuming the worst when someone includes details that are not relevant to an argument.

Apologies, TDR, but this is a medium of words - and a forum where clarity of expression is stressed rather strongly. It has very little to do with 'irrelevant' details - it has to do with how the words one chooses to use reveal quite plainly what is really going on inside one's mind - whether the author wants these words to do that or not.

 

[Neil]

I'm interested in how you've tried to stay out of that camp. Intellectual chakras???

By trying to avoid believing that all is well in the world aside from a few "minor problems." As people tend to believe there are no cover-ups, no aliens, nothing like that. The Cassiopaeans said that the concept of chakras roughly corresponds to Gurdjieff's concept of centers. Since there is a lower and upper intellectual chakra, I used that term when referring to intellectual chakras.

Interesting, so you're saying you've never experienced these qualities and their consequences first hand before, and that's why you 'don't fit with people'? How can you eliminate these qualities from yourself if you've never experienced them first hand before?

I'm saying that I've never seen, or attempted to see, the broader consequences of these actions. I didn't fit in with people because they generally don't attempt to see, in my opinion.

Ahh, but we know that you do judge them - that is the difference. At least they have a 'maybe' in the equation.

Ok, I'll go along with that.

Nope, he's just saying that you see the people as BLACK before seeing them as people.

Well, I didn't consider that. I DO see them as black people before I see them as just people. So, I guess that can be considered a form of racial bias, even if it wasn't the type of bias that I had in mind. Like discrimination, saying we should avoid them because their race has such and such qualities.

You're the one who automatically identified them as black - why was that fact even vaguely relevant?

I thought it was due to the reasons you "uhhhmmmed" about. If it runs as deep as you suggest, then it could be this "subtle bias." But why does this bias exist and why is so hard for me to grasp it?

Let me just conjecture on who conducted this study..... white people? Your programming is so deep you can't even begin to see it.

So white people created this study to lead people to dislike the blacks because they listen to music that is supposively disruptive and nonconducive to thinking and older music created by white people is somehow "better"? I wouldn't put it past them. But do you know?

Cute. Sarcasm = aggression.

I was blowing off steam, because of this whole racial bias thing. It's noise. Whether you believe this is due to messing with programs that I don't want to touch, ignorance, or that I'm some psychological deviant trying to mess with your forum is up to you.

What American teenager calls an apartment a flat?

i.e. I am wearing a "Mask of Sanity" and am trying to hide my true identity from you. Ok, if you do an internet search for an article entitled "The Pepper Chase" you will find an article from the Citrus County Chronicle where I was president of the environmental club removing Brazillian Pepper plants from the Marine Science Station. That was about 5 and a half years ago. I was in 7th grade. Alternatively, you can just put in Neil Maves and you should find the article. There is also another Neil Maves who is a pilot or something in California. That's not me. I used the term flat as a simple word to denote a living area.

This is a fascinating statement since up until now you've told us that you've been quite confrontational and judgmental to those around you. Why the turnaround - or is it just that the explanation has turned around?

Judgmental yes, confrontational no. I was confrontational to Rocky, but this is generally not the case. I usually keep to myself.

Apologies, but what an odd way to look at things. The C's do not reside in 3D - how could you ever 'do what they do'? Have you not read the transcripts in which they explicitly state to not deify them?

It was an interesting idea. I wanted to use them as a sort of behavioral role model because I thought it might help me to "ascend." Though, as you mention, it doesn't have much practical application. I don't deify them, but there are parts of me that want to place them on some elaborate pedestal. It's back to this bizarre convoluted thought pattern I have running in the background about superiority.

Something, Neil, is not right in the 'state of Denmark' - now, what might that be? (another rhetorical question)

I will provide an answer to this rhetorical question. You see many contradictions, bizarre ideas, and curious programs running in my psyche. This gets your attention because there is something unusual going on behind the scenes. I have a lot of tangential ideas that run counter to the main persona or overall being. My personal impression is that it is because you are getting me to analyze the little individual ugly pieces of my being. However, these "ugly pieces" could in reality be trip wires that lead to various nefarious ends. I'm not trying to disrupt your group, however, you will not take my word for that and you shouldn't. It is your forum, and if you assess that I am a threat or disturbance to it's intended mission, then put me on probation until I possess the neccessary understandings to be a valuble contributer, if ever.

 

[Third_Density_Resident]

I still don't necessarily think it was a subconscious racist remark (it could have been); but that it was simply irrelevant. People seemingly have an inherent suspicion in assuming the worst when someone includes details that are not relevant to an argument.

Apologies, TDR, but this is a medium of words - and a forum where clarity of expression is stressed rather strongly. It has very little to do with 'irrelevant' details - it has to do with how the words one chooses to use reveal quite plainly what is really going on inside one's mind - whether the author wants these words to do that or not.

I see your point. I guess when one includes irrelevant details, they ARE revealing something about themselves, in general. But I had in mind a particular type of person who goes into far too much detail about EVERYTHING -- the type of person who you just wish would get to the point rather than describing the shape, colour and texture of every object they walk past on their way to the library -- when what they discover at the library is the important part of the story. So having said that, Neil is NOT one of those types of people, so I concede that my original argument (about him not having subconscious programs) doesn't really hold up.

 

[Neil]

After sleeping on it; it appears that I am little more than a babbling idiot or a mad machine. Beau did see something going on in me because I was making a distinction between people and black people. I completely overreacted because I was so convinced I did not have a bias. I did what programmed people usually do, and went into all of these crazy rationalizations about why I wasn't to skirt around the truth. What is going on behind my persona? It seems there is another little person in there that I have been feeding for a long time; both consciously and subconsciously. Being forced to look at it by you guys; it seems the person is a monster.

I don't know if I know anything anymore; so many lies I have been telling myself for so long. I've got a lot on my plate. I feel confused and lost.

It basically sounds like Neil is running all sorts of 'out of my comfort zone' and 'I'm not in control of my surroundings' and 'I'm too good for this' programs - a lot to utilize and learn from there if he so chooses.

If I'm anything but programs. Is there any soul in there? Or am I just some sort of OP condemmed to do the same thing over and over again. I have such glaring issues; I need to step back and take a look... I need to do a lot of things. I'm behaving like a psychopath, I seem out of touch with reality, I have this blatant disregard for people, and I'm ponerizing those around me. Am I one of the 6%? Have I been lying to myself this whole time so I could live with my actions and leech energy off of others? I hope I didn't corrupt the minds of Third Density Resident and Kesdjan with my foolishness. If I did, I'm just disrupting their Work to feed my own programs. If I cannot see this and see the truth what a monster I'm becoming, I have no place even being here.

I don't know what to do other than focus on who or what I really am; use this as an opportunity to see myself instead of making excuses for my behavior. It will take some time for me to contemplate all of the programs that have been revealed and then actually take a step towards being human. I have denied myself that opportunity because I thought that awareness made me somehow superhuman, when in fact all it did was make me self-righteous. This awareness itself may have been an illusion, since I can't seem to see anything at all in myself. So no, nothing is right in the State of Denmark. In this state, I am little more than a liability. I feel that I have little to contribute except various lies and empty ideas. Until I make some real progress; it would probably be best if I become a lurker and don't start any more threads where I lead myself to believe I'm actually cognizant of all that is going on.

 

[Approaching Infinity]

You're the one who automatically identified them as black - why was that fact even vaguely relevant?

I thought it was due to the reasons you "uhhhmmmed" about. If it runs as deep as you suggest, then it could be this "subtle bias." But why does this bias exist and why is so hard for me to grasp it?

Neil, this shows the extent to which you really "know" yourself. What does that say about your observations? Your reactions?

It was so hard for you to grasp because you have identified completely with your false self: your automatic reactions, your programmed feelings of superiority, your natural egotism, etc.

Let me just conjecture on who conducted this study..... white people? Your programming is so deep you can't even begin to see it.

So white people created this study to lead people to dislike the blacks because they listen to music that is supposively disruptive and nonconducive to thinking and older music created by white people is somehow "better"? I wouldn't put it past them. But do you know?

It would be fairly likely. For the test to be accurate, it would have to have a large sample of people raised (and living) in various countries, as well as groups who have moved and lived in various cultures, listening to various types of music. It would have to test each with the music they are accustomed to, and music that they are not. The tests you speak of were probably (i.e., I don't know for sure) conducted by white Westerners on other white (or asian, or black; it wouldn't necessarily matter) westerners. The conclusion should take account of these facts. They might have even done so, but once a study reaches the mass media, such subtleties are ignored and misrepresented.

It was an interesting idea. I wanted to use them as a sort of behavioral role model because I thought it might help me to "ascend." Though, as you mention, it doesn't have much practical application. I don't deify them, but there are parts of me that want to place them on some elaborate pedestal. It's back to this bizarre convoluted thought pattern I have running in the background about superiority.

It's common, and helpful, to have a "personality ideal," but it may be more practical to have one that resides in 3D. You say you don't deify, but in the next part of the sentence, say essentially the opposite. Again, more evidence of how much you "know" yourself.

I completely overreacted because I was so convinced I did not have a bias. I did what programmed people usually do, and went into all of these crazy rationalizations about why I wasn't to skirt around the truth.

But Neil, you are a programmed person! That is the root of the problem here, I think. You are a dreamer that is convinced he is fully awake. But in reality you are just as egotistical as the people around you, whom you denigrate in your mind. But all your superiorities are programs. They are automatic reactions that are 'not-I.' You've told us how you see others, but how do others see you? How do you see yourself?

From what I've read here, I see you someone who thinks he is entitled to more than his 'lesser' peers on account of how awake he thinks he is; someone who does not understand the concept of external consideration (this ties to your own "three egos" -- egocentrism/egoism/egotism); someone who has no respect or love for his "sleeping" neighbors; someone who seeks knowledge and development not for the good of humanity, but for his own egoistic purposes.

So why are you here? Why are you doing what you are doing? For others? That looks doubtful to me. It seems you could care less about other people. For yourself? More likely, I think. But which 'you'?

 

[anart]

You're the one who automatically identified them as black - why was that fact even vaguely relevant?

I thought it was due to the reasons you "uhhhmmmed" about. If it runs as deep as you suggest, then it could be this "subtle bias." But why does this bias exist and why is so hard for me to grasp it?

Well, I can't know for certain, but it is likely that you were raised in an environment where such thought processes were normal. It may be that you find it so hard to grasp because it is not easy for you to see aspects of yourself that are not positive our 'above average'. This is not at all unusual.

So white people created this study to lead people to dislike the blacks because they listen to music that is supposively disruptive and nonconducive to thinking and older music created by white people is somehow "better"? I wouldn't put it past them. But do you know?

Actually, that wasn't quite my point. My point was that this study may have very well been biased by its designers - all studies are to one extent or another. It's a lot like you not seeing your own racial bias - unless a human being is completely awake and fully conscious, then there will be bias. I wasn't at all suggesting that it was the intention of the study to dissuade people from listening to 'non-older white music'.

I was blowing off steam, because of this whole racial bias thing. It's noise. Whether you believe this is due to messing with programs that I don't want to touch, ignorance, or that I'm some psychological deviant trying to mess with your forum is up to you.

I don't believe anything at all at this point. I was simply pointing out your behavior and what may or may not be behind it. There is nothing unusual at all about programs - every single human being on the planet has them - and a lot of them. What seems to make the difference is whether one chooses to examine and remove them or not.

What American teenager calls an apartment a flat?

i.e. I am wearing a "Mask of Sanity" and am trying to hide my true identity from you.

Actually, I wasn't going in that direction at all, but you do seem a bit defensive, now that you mention it. ;) The only reason I pointed that out was because I've never heard a teenager from Florida call an apartment a flat - that doesn't mean there's not a youth subculture of 'flatists' in Florida - I am rather behind the social times, after all.

I was wondering if this was the real Neil talking, or another program or defense mechanism surfacing - it is not unusual at all for such things to happen, so I just thought I'd point it out to see where it went.

I will provide an answer to this rhetorical question. You see many contradictions, bizarre ideas, and curious programs running in my psyche. This gets your attention because there is something unusual going on behind the scenes. I have a lot of tangential ideas that run counter to the main persona or overall being. My personal impression is that it is because you are getting me to analyze the little individual ugly pieces of my being. However, these "ugly pieces" could in reality be trip wires that lead to various nefarious ends.

This is the normal state for humanity - it is how each and every one of us is/was before we started Working. It's nothing at all to be ashamed of, but something to examine, explore and fully understand, so that at some point one IS able to change it. It's really quite normal and nothing to give up over - but that can be hard to accept when one is used to being 'above average' - still, the longest journey starts with the first step, and that first step is often simply grasping the fact that everything one thinks about themselves is a lie. fwiw.

 

[mudrabbit]

snipped:

Until I make some real progress; it would probably be best if I become a lurker and don't start any more threads where I lead myself to believe I'm actually cognizant of all that is going on.

Perhaps lurking is not the answer. I think lurking brings on its own set of problems, and I don't think much work can be done on the self in that state. The only way to get feedback is to ask for it and participate.

Don't think you are the only one who's felt this. Many here are dealing with the internal battles, and the only way we can learn is to share. I guess the first instinct of anyone who feels the heat is to hide, (= lurking).

Peg

 

[anart]

If I'm anything but programs. Is there any soul in there? Or am I just some sort of OP condemmed to do the same thing over and over again. I have such glaring issues; I need to step back and take a look... I need to do a lot of things. I'm behaving like a psychopath, I seem out of touch with reality, I have this blatant disregard for people, and I'm ponerizing those around me. Am I one of the 6%? Have I been lying to myself this whole time so I could live with my actions and leech energy off of others? I hope I didn't corrupt the minds of Third Density Resident and Kesdjan with my foolishness. If I did, I'm just disrupting their Work to feed my own programs. If I cannot see this and see the truth what a monster I'm becoming, I have no place even being here.

Just wanted to mention that this sounds a lot like the flip side of the superiority program. There is, in fact, a middle ground between being perfect and being worthless - I think you can find it.

 

[Beau]

If I'm anything but programs. Is there any soul in there? Or am I just some sort of OP condemmed to do the same thing over and over again. I have such glaring issues; I need to step back and take a look... I need to do a lot of things. I'm behaving like a psychopath, I seem out of touch with reality, I have this blatant disregard for people, and I'm ponerizing those around me. Am I one of the 6%? Have I been lying to myself this whole time so I could live with my actions and leech energy off of others? I hope I didn't corrupt the minds of Third Density Resident and Kesdjan with my foolishness. If I did, I'm just disrupting their Work to feed my own programs. If I cannot see this and see the truth what a monster I'm becoming, I have no place even being here.

I don't know what to do other than focus on who or what I really am; use this as an opportunity to see myself instead of making excuses for my behavior. It will take some time for me to contemplate all of the programs that have been revealed and then actually take a step towards being human. I have denied myself that opportunity because I thought that awareness made me somehow superhuman, when in fact all it did was make me self-righteous. This awareness itself may have been an illusion, since I can't seem to see anything at all in myself. So no, nothing is right in the State of Denmark. In this state, I am little more than a liability. I feel that I have little to contribute except various lies and empty ideas. Until I make some real progress; it would probably be best if I become a lurker and don't start any more threads where I lead myself to believe I'm actually cognizant of all that is going on.

Everything above is you either feeling sorry for yourself (self-pity), which is the flip side of self-importance, or trying to evoke pity from the rest of us. Face it, you need to confront your false self in order to wake up. It's not all gravy. The C's say "Don't mourn the death of an illusion".

 

[Beau]

It's lumping a group of people together because of the actions of a few.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. So now you're saying because I mentioned "the black people next door" that I'm against all black people because they play music that annoys me?

No, I'm saying by mentioning their race you are introducing characteristics which are irrelevant to the story. Your tendency to focus on superficial traits such as skin color was something I noticed and felt should be pointed out.

You're seeing something that simply doesn't exist!

I will respectfully disagree with you here.

If it came across that I was accusing the black race; I'm sorry, that was not my intention.

Of course it wasn't. You were operating based on programming at a level you weren't aware of. Seldom do such things occur "intentionally".

If anything, I was lapsing into my regional speech where blacks are a minority and tend to travel, live, and congregate together.

Can you not see the racial bias inherent in such thinking? You see yourself as so advanced yet you lapse into sounding like you live in the 1800's.

Since there aren't many blacks in our neighborhood, and we grow up in spereate areas, when we talk about them we always talk about the black people doing such and such.I was not referring to black people in general, I was referring to the black people next door and that was my ONLY intention.

You are either lying to yourself, or being intentionally dishonest. Look at the words I bolded. If you cannot see your racial bias after re-reading the above sentences then you have really slipped onto a strong subconscious program there. You are separating yourself from another person based on skin color. Your use of the words we and them clearly show that. You may counter that I am being legalistic myself, but to the contrary, those very small words carry a lot of weight. The subtle implication is that you see blacks as different from you, for some reason. It is up to you to try and figure out why.

And FYI, almost every black person I've met enjoys rap music, but not necessairly in a way that annoys me.

You should think about getting out and really seeing the world and getting some experience under you belt. Your experiences do not add up to objective fact. Meaning, just because every person who is black that you met likes rap, doesn't mean that every black person likes rap. That's faulty logic. I know you didn't expressly say that, but you are implying that is the case.

Their is a difference. Neil is not asleep, he is supposed to be waking up and understanding the way people are and his own machine.

[sarcasm=on] You know, I should've just waited until I was in my mid-twenties before I sought to study any of this stuff because I am obviously of the age where I'm supposed to be stupid and not care about anything besides my own happiness. I could go home to my nice wife in my nice peaceful flat, stare in disbelief at the garden variety psychopaths at work, and go through nice leisurely strolls in the forest...[/sarcasm]

You're exhibiting classic passive-aggressive behavior. I read your reply to anart where she pointed it out already. You can say it was blowing off steam, but what it really sounds like is you are annoyed by me and wanted to express that negative emotion without coming right out and doing it.

Neil, has it ever occurfed to you to just ask them to turn their music down? If they don't (and especially if their so selfish as to turn it up) you can always complain? It may be better to just learn to tune it out, because the option to complain may not always be open in the future.

One day it was overwhelmingly loud and someone yelled at them to turn that S*** off which of course they didn't listen to.

I wouldn't have either. Their is a polite way to ask someone to turn down the music, and their is a rude way. What's wrong with knocking on the door and politely asking them to turn down the music? If they do not, their is not anything wrong with going to the RA and telling him about the noise disturbance in the halls. If it's before 10pm, their isn't much you can do. In that case, going to the library would not be unreasonable, would it? Like I said, they are kids living on their own for the first time in their life, encumbered by authority figures. They are going to be listening to loud music and a whole host of other things which for the person who is "beyond such things" will be an annoyance, but to practice external consideration would be understanding of the situation and not let your emotions get the best of you.

My lone complaint could get me labled as a party crasher, old fart, book fag, or whatever they come up with and they might get their friends together and teach me a lesson. I would rather not take the risk and provoke a war.

I think you are being a tad melodramatic. You really shouldn't care what anyone labels you if you manage to get the music turned down. But if you are going to let that get in the way, maybe you are better off just studying elsewhere.

I've actually heard a couple of rap songs that were ok, but most of it is gang-bangers and horny people. In my opinion, the most important part of a song is it's lyrics; does it have a meaning? Does it touch your heart? Better be careful those lyrics don't cause you to disassociate though.

I'm more of a rhythm and melody person myself. They can touch my heart as much or more than any lyric. Not everything in life has to have a meaning. OSIT

Referring to the race at all indicates a racial bias, whether it is subconscious or not.

Well, if you want to argue that I'm a subconscious racist, there's really no way that I can affirm or deny that statement. My environment has affected the way I speak and view things, so how do I know?

Their is a difference between having a bias and being a racist. It's not an all-or-nothing case. In the book Blink Malcolm Gladwell addresses this very subject. People who show no overt signs of bias or racism are given a test which proves that they do actually have an underlying bias. In fact, I believe it's the test that Kesdjian linked to. The test-takers were all astonished that they all were carrying with them subconscious bias which they were unaware of. The difference here is you are fighting against that claim, all the while showing more and more that you do carry a bias.