Venezuela: Resistance or disintegration?

[Windmill knight]

Thanks msante, that was interesting. I like facts and figures when it comes to topics that have been obscured by propaganda, such as this one. What I learn from the data above is that the government was spending more on social programs than it could afford - apparently in not very efficient ways, which resulted in waste and corruption - but that it in fact did manage to reduce poverty overall. This doesn't look like it was a long-term sustainable model - at least not the way it was done - so it can logically be concluded that the 'socialist mismanagement' is in part to blame for the crisis.

The social decomposition we see today in Venezuela, IMHO, is not at all a direct product of US intervention, but of a social dynamic and political practices imposed by the Bolivarian Revolution from the beginning.

On this point, I do think the US has had a lot to do with the social decomposition in Venezuela. If you haven't read it already, check out this article:

La creación de Juan Guaidó: Cómo el Laboratorio de Cambio de Régimen de Estados Unidos creó al líder golpista venezolano

The Making of Juan Guaidó: How The US Regime Change Laboratory Created Venezuela's Coup Leader

It hasn't been the sanctions and the economic warfare only. The US has been pumping money to the worst of the opposition, which was trained abroad in fomenting revolutions back home. Included in the funding were the infamous guarimbas, which are the equivalent of the crazy yihadists in the ME, and in which Guaidó himself took part.

As for the question of how Venezuela would look like if it had been left alone (no economic warfare, no funding of social conflict), we can only speculate. But I'll say probably something like Cuba, except more prosperous, since Venezuela has not been - and still isn't - fully socialist, and it would have been able to profit properly of its oil, the largest reserve in the world.

 

[Windmill knight]

I was just reading that Russia says that the US is following the same script they used in Libya for regime change, and it occurred to me that Libya, before it became the target of NATO, could give us an approximate idea of what Venezuela might have looked like if it had been left alone. For years, Gaddafi was in fairly good terms with Europe and the country was rich in oil. He had his own version of socialism ("Jamahiriya"), and although he was considered a totalitarian dictator who stayed in power for several decades, he managed to give his country the highest standard of living of all Africa and he was popular. Then, one day 'they' decided he had to go, and the country was totally destroyed.

 

[aragorn]

This is a bit silly, but does anyone else think that Guaidó is a lot like a young Obama? I was watching him speaking, and to me it was striking how the mannerism and appearance is similar. Perhaps they came from the same 'factory'?

 

[Hi_Henry]

... the seed of failure was sown by the Revolution itself before the U.S. escalated the economic attack on Venezuela to the extreme (or before this attack began to have serious effects).

I have seen Venezuela up close and personal and not just as a vacationer. If Chavez had not come to power the poor would have absolutely gotten nothing from all that was produced from the land they lived on. Whatever the errors of his Revolution, IMHO, the whole things was still a big positive for the vast majority there. Education and health are the most striking benefit from Chavez rule. No matter the amount that was so called wasted during his time, what the vast majority got from it was worth it because it was the vast majority that was ignored and forgotten before he came on the scene.

So no, America can not be taken off the hook that it is not directly responsible for the collapse of this country. The ruling class in the US likes when max is taken from a country and minimum is left behind. That is their economic model which is laid out in this book,

Confessions of an Economic Hit Man by John Perkins

Listen to the Venezuelan Foreign Minster at around 1:55:00,

. He lays out the arguments very well. Then listen to the lame rebuttal from the US rep.

If you want to see an even better example of this look at what was done in Papua New Guinea with the mining of a huge mountain of gold. On Zerohedge there was a link to this story but I can not find it at this time.

Some excellent information is found in the comments here, ZeroHedge 1 and here about Juan Guaido Vet. Note the interesting info on the "Lima Group" and the Ukrainian roots of the Canadian Foreign Minster who seems to be driving this group.

That the World is not standing with Venezuela is disgusting. I am not too surprised with the vast majority in Latin America as they have more in common with the DC rulers than they do with the majority in their countries. That's the new Democracy Today, president that is elected in a Democratic election is not the president but the one that nearly no one voted for is. Sovereignty ??? Forget it. Will block your accounts and give it to someone we like. Now that is Democracy at its Best.

 

[Hi_Henry]

This is a bit silly, but does anyone else think that Guaidó is a lot like a young Obama? I was watching him speaking, and to me it was striking how the mannerism and appearance is similar. Perhaps they came from the same 'factory'?

Learn more about Guaido here,
ZH
He's going to make Venezuela great they say. Like what was done in Ukraine. Beautiful words, democratically elected president ousted and now what ? One giant mess that has not exploded because EU graciously opened their Eastern boarder to the European Ukrainians. Such a happy story. Question: Where is all the gold Ukraine had ?

 

[Navigator]

This is a bit silly, but does anyone else think that Guaidó is a lot like a young Obama? I was watching him speaking, and to me it was striking how the mannerism and appearance is similar. Perhaps they came from the same 'factory'?

Funny, after reading your post I was sure I could find a SOTT article that detailed how Obama was groomed from an early age to become a puppet politician, instead I found this one, which had this quote marked in red:

Obama's public life has been a wretched monument to the dark power of the neoliberal corporate-financial and imperial agendas behind the progressive pretense of façade of telegenic and silver-tongued professional class politicos.

 

[goyacobol]

This is a bit silly, but does anyone else think that Guaidó is a lot like a young Obama? I was watching him speaking, and to me it was striking how the mannerism and appearance is similar. Perhaps they came from the same 'factory'?

Not silly to me because I was thinking the same thing.

 

[1peacelover]

The Green Book. Muammar al-Qaddafi...........One of the reasons Qaddafi was a threat was his approach in encouraging various African countries to form an African Bank, using their natural resources under control to fund said bank. That would allow those countries to take care of the needs of their people instead of depending on external "aid". IMO, the corruption of the political leaderships would also have to be dismantled.

 

[Renaissance]

It strikes me that the US 'movers and shakers' put themselves in hot water when they so heavily pushed the propaganda that condemned Russia for 'meddling in US elections'. They pushed this message hard into mass thought. Now that the US is openly interfering in Venezuala's elections, very few people are willing to go along with the narrative. For example, take a look at the replies in the following tweet. I'd estimate that something like 99% of the replies are in disagreement:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1089919374671126528

An additional issue now is that when the US began to pound on Russia from 2014 onward, they opened the door to awareness of global affairs. Go back 6 years ago and there was never any substantive coverage of global affairs other than major US military attacks. For decades American media had been almost exclusively focused on domestic issues. Their silence was maddening and that along with the advancement of the internet created the conditions for the rise of alternative media. Now that they are more or less forced to talk about their involvement in international affairs, they're continually exposing themselves with their hypocrisy as well as all the censorship tactics they've had to enforce through social media. I'm going to bet that their gambit against Venezuela is going to fail miserably, and largely from a boomerang effect of their own propaganda.

 

[angelburst29]

This is a bit silly, but does anyone else think that Guaidó is a lot like a young Obama? I was watching him speaking, and to me it was striking how the mannerism and appearance is similar. Perhaps they came from the same 'factory'?

Not silly to me because I was thinking the same thing.

Not so silly - in many ways, Guaido DOES act like a young Obama in public appearances. VP Pence seems to be his main mentor at the moment. Probably, just another CIA asset? I wonder what professions his Parent's were in, not much info on them on the wiki-web?

U.S. Vice President Mike Pence plans to head to Miami on Friday, home to the country’s largest community of Venezuelan exiles, to rally support for the opposition ahead of Venezuelan protests against President Nicolas Maduro, a White House official said.

Jan. 31, 2019 - VP Pence to rally support for Venezuela's Guaido in Miami on Friday
VP Pence to rally support for Venezuela's Guaido in Miami on Friday

U.S. Vice President Mike Pence listens as President Donald Trump hosts a roundtable with Hispanic pastors at the White House in Washington, U.S., January 25, 2019. REUTERS/Kevin Lamarque     

Pence, who has helped lead White House efforts to recognize self-declared president Juan Guaido as Venezuela’s rightful leader, will be joined by Florida senators Marco Rubio and Rick Scott, Representative Mario Diaz-Balart, and Governor Ron DeSantis, all fellow Republicans.

The White House has said Maduro lost legitimacy after an election last year condemned as rigged by the United States and many other governments around the world. Mass protests are planned in Venezuela at the weekend to keep up the pressure on Maduro.

Guaido, the newly-named leader of the country’s National Assembly, declared himself interim president last week after twice speaking by phone with Pence. The White House later imposed stiff sanctions aimed at curbing Maduro’s grip on Venezuelan oil revenues.


Tug-of-war: U.S. refiner Citgo caught in Venezuela political upheaval
Citgo Petroleum Corp, the eighth largest U.S. refiner and Venezuela's top foreign asset, is in the middle of a tug-of-war as the Trump administration tries to use the company as leverage to topple Venezuelan President Nicolas Maduro.

White House's Bolton says he met with Citgo executives
White House national security adviser John Bolton said he had a "very productive meeting" on Wednesday with Citgo's executive team, two days after Washington slapped sanctions on the company's parent, Venezuelan state-owned oil firm PDVSA.

Citgo expatriate workers in U.S. ordered to return to Venezuela: sources
Venezuela has told dozens of expatriate staff working for Citgo Petroleum Corp in the United States that they must return to Caracas by the end of February, people familiar with the matter said, following U.S. sanctions aimed at forcing socialist President Nicolas Maduro from power.

Venezuelan oil stuck at ports, PDVSA struggles to import fuel
Venezuela's oil inventories have started to build up at the country's ports and terminals as PDVSA is finding it cannot export crude at its usual rate due to U.S. sanctions imposed earlier this week, according to sources and shipping data.

Venezuela studying partial force majeure after US sanctions: oil minister
Venezuela is studying several measures to react to new U.S sanctions against state-run oil firm PDVSA including partial force majeure, Oil Minister Manuel Quevedo said on Tuesday.

U.S. weighs oil release as it tightens vice on Venezuela: source
The Trump administration is considering tapping the U.S. emergency reserve of crude as it imposes new sanctions on Venezuela's oil business, but no decision has been made, a U.S. government source said on Tuesday.

Venezuela targets Guaido with probe, travel ban, asset freeze
Venezuela's government struck back at self-declared interim president Juan Guaido on Tuesday, with the Supreme Court imposing a travel ban and freeze on his bank accounts despite a warning from Washington of "serious consequences" if it did so.

Don't deal in commodities 'stolen' from Venezuelan people: White House's Bolton
White House National Security Adviser John Bolton underlined U.S. pressure on Venezuelan President Nicolas Maduro on Wednesday, telling bankers, brokers and traders not to deal in the country's commodities that he said were "stolen" from the Venezuelan people.

Russia calls on Venezuela's opposition to start talks with Maduro
Russia on Wednesday called on the opposition in Venezuela to set aside any pre-conditions it may have and to start talks with President Nicolas Maduro.

 

[angelburst29]

This is a bit silly, but does anyone else think that Guaidó is a lot like a young Obama? I was watching him speaking, and to me it was striking how the mannerism and appearance is similar. Perhaps they came from the same 'factory'?

Like in this photo below?
Venezuela's Guaido says police agents visited his home

Extra photos here:
Venezuela's Guaido says police agents visited his home

Venezuelan opposition leader and self-proclaimed interim president Juan Guaido speaks next to his wife Fabiana Rosales during a meeting with supporters to present a government plan of the opposition in Caracas, Venezuela January 31, 2019. REUTERS/Carlos Garcia Rawlins

 

[Hi_Henry]

Yes, those are the chosen fresh young faces of the Future. Once they get Power it will be Nirvana for Venezuela. That is an old Hollywood script which unfortunately works on many people. However this Obama like character is an agent who was not ELECTED by the Venezuelan People. He was appointed by the USA.

In a normal World agents would visit someone like this guy as they did the Weaver Family. Talk to bring down an elected government usual implies that. Fabiana next to him changes nothing. Crook is a crook.

 

[mabar]

I have seen Venezuela up close and personal and not just as a vacationer. If Chavez had not come to power the poor would have absolutely gotten nothing from all that was produced from the land they lived on. Whatever the errors of his Revolution, IMHO, the whole things was still a big positive for the vast majority there. Education and health are the most striking benefit from Chavez rule. No matter the amount that was so called wasted during his time, what the vast majority got from it was worth it because it was the vast majority that was ignored and forgotten before he came on the scene.

If the eductaion and health were not had been provided and improved, precisely to the poor, the country would had implode many years ago, I think ...

Mabar these minimun salary are not well compared. In mexico about 4.9 $ is the salary per day, while in venezuela about 7.5 $ per month!!! so you see the wage/day in venezuela is about 7.5/20 workdays = 0.37 $/day. My father spent his whole old-age pension (one minimum wage) in 1 kg of onions and a bit of spring onion. This is surreal

Galaxia2002, how does it cost electricity, rent, telephone, water, gas?

Because, I have the idea that perhpas many people, venezuelan or not, may think that things will be better if the country change the economic system, even though with the pseudo help from US, but I suspect that it may not be the case ... and, I am not even considering the mega problem issue of a civil war ...

Mexico salary per month = 147 US dollar
monthly bill electricity 4 dollar
telephone 6 dollar
water 5 dollar
gas (hot water/stove) 8 dollar
rent 75 dollar
apartment 2 rooms 1 bathroom, popular area
transportation montly 30 dollar
1 dollar per day, no car
---that leaves 19 dollar/30 days .63 cents for food and personal hygiene per day, is not enough either, that's why social programs need to help people out to survive ...

 

[Yas]

I find the information provided by msante very interesting, and I think it is indeed something that should be considered when looking deeper into Venezuela's reality. But I've also been thinking about what was suggested about how some of the government's behaviour can be seen as defensive mechanisms against an overbearing attack.

I think it is true that corruption has spread on the Venezuelan government, yet, what is described as the type of corruption happening is so much like the corruption I see in my 'right-wing' government - including the huge spending on 'social assistance' used as political weapon - , with the clear distinction that poverty hasn't really been reduced, nor literacy and overall life conditions have improved. That is quite a difference, IMHO.

I reckon it is very hard to not have some corruption when a state becomes so large and is involved in so many aspects of the country's affairs, but what if Chavez truly wanted to solve this particular issue and he just wasn't able to do it in time? What if Venezuela's efforts had to focus on countering the effects of the attacks it's been receiving that it is almost impossible for it to channel enough resources on those other issues?

I'm thinking of an analogy, but I'm not sure it will do justice to Venezuela's issues. Say a man is sick and suddenly starts to improve his condition with actions. He starts getting supplements to deliver nutrients to all the body and take actions to improve the conditions on the most affected areas. His body starts getting better, but then is infected by an 'outsider' parasitic super-bug that is REALLY hard to kill. The body's defence mechanisms must be focused almost entirely on the battle against that super-bug and, therefore, some of its other life-supporting systems start to weaken again. Within his body, there are other opportunistic bugs which remain under control in healthy conditions, but when the other systems start weakening and there aren't enough resources to keep them under control, they thrive. On top of that, the 'outsider' parasitic super-bug starts working together with the 'local' opportunistic bugs to create havoc. That body is now under attack from within and without, so to say, and we wouldn't say it is the man's fault. He CAN do something about it still, and surely there will be some blame on him if he knew he could do something about it but didn't have enough will to do it... but still, it is possible that he could thrive if he hadn't been infected with that 'outsider' parasite.

Now, I wouldn't be able to unequivocally claim that Venezuela is in a similar situation. I truly don't know, because there's much I ignore about the country. But I do know that there are 'local' opportunistic parasites in any country, left and right, and that as soon as the internal systems begin to weaken, they'll do their best to gain better positions where they can benefit, push their own agenda and have more influence. I also think that in light of what is exposed in the article WK posted, hybrid warfare is very real in Venezuela, and it is precisely designed to exacerbate this internal conflict by strengthening the local parasites and weakening the life-supporting and control systems.

So, I don't know. I'm just thinking that maybe Venezuela could have been better off if it wasn't for the attacks from the outside, and that maybe there truly was an intention to make it a better place. Although, striving towards that dream may be beating a dead horse nowadays. Under the country’s current conditions, maybe there isn't a lot that can be done to fix those inner issues and it's only a matter of time until it falls. But I still hope they can pull through 'with a little help from their friends', because an intervention by the US would be much worse, OSIT.

Just some thoughts, fwiw...

 

[Navigator]

As for the question of how Venezuela would look like if it had been left alone (no economic warfare, no funding of social conflict), we can only speculate. But I'll say probably something like Cuba, except more prosperous, since Venezuela has not been - and still isn't - fully socialist, and it would have been able to profit properly of its oil, the largest reserve in the world.

The thing with this comparison is that Cuba is still subject to economic interference from the U.S. and has been for decades. Then again, which Latinamerican country, or from the world, has NOT been subject to a form of economic pressure, directly or indirectly from the US.?

The other day we discussed about this perfect storm that Venezuela is facing, and I came up with a little list for my own guidance:

1. The competence hierarchies may not be working properly, probably have been shattered, because of ideological reasons. Venezuela is after all, an openly socialist country modelled on precisely Cuba. The number of Venezuelans fleeing the country is of course enormous, among them some of their greatest and brightest.

2. The radical antagonism showed by Chavez towards the U.S., while somewhat praise worthy and refreshing, just wasn't a long term (medium term even) good idea. After all, Venezuela does not have a nuclear deterrent to keep the wolves at bay AND they sell most of their oil to the U.S., talk about shooting yourself in the foot.

3. I'll say @msante that its just impossible to distinguish - and this is one of the ongoing long debates, as shown in this thread - Venezuela's failure coming from the Bolivarian Revolution's own incapacities, from those coming in the form of economic covert warfare and hybrid warfare. Simply because the evidence suggest that the latter has always been present, and is not just in the economic form, but also in a political and social form as well.

4. The lack of a viable opposition keeps the country locked in the same rhetoric as 10 years ago. The opposition in the country is so fragmented and so full of opportunistic, power hungry, American aligned politicians that its just impossible to have a reasonable or respectful debate, the country now is beyond this point, it has crossed that threshold. The coming of Guaidó, from a a violent background, is just proof of this, not that the previous opposition leaders were any better, but this means that civil war is quite possibly the final outcome.