Was Julius Caesar the real Jesus Christ?

[Aithin Tusa Fein]

There was some deliberate collusion and "replacement" going on helped by the Jewish war. I also suspect some cosmic activity that helped in this regard that has subsequently been edited out, too.

Ok. Let me break down my thinking into simple terms with analogy to see if I'm on the right track.

There was a "replacement" effort prompted by the Jewish war. This was an alternate version of the Caesar story. Now like with the bell shaped curve of DNA within a population, I would strongly suspect that the popularity of this alternate version was somewhere at the margins of the bell shaped curve.

Ok. Then comes in cosmic events which changes the environment and somehow the alternate version was 'best suited' for the new environment (possibly endorsed by influential religious/political figures). But either way the majority of the bell shaped curve either died off or could no longer compete in the new environment with the alternate version, so the alternate version, being better suited, reproduced and became the majority of the bell shaped curve, so to speak.

If I look at it in this way, I can see the mechanisms between biological DNA and cultural DNA within a population are very similar and therefore it is understandable how such a switch could occur.

See above and also note that, in general, Carotta addresses that pretty thoroughly in the last section of his book.

Its on my reading list. Now I want to skip ahead, but if I do that I usually don't learn as much as when I just go through it. Rats! I'll just stay the course.

 

[Loire]

I somehow feel intimidated to say something about this discussion since so many 'knowledgeable' people have already established the 'truth' about this subject. But anyway, I just feel obligated to make my humble opinion by saying that, although I also do not believe in the myth of Jesus as portrayed in the Christian gospels, I nonetheless do not seriously think that he was somehow the same entity than the epileptic Roman Julius Seasar!

Maybe I am not too much intellectual than other folks posting in this thread, but I do think that I still have enough brain potential to analyse things and conclude that reality is a lot more complex than what people often want it to be. Simply the fact of reading a few authors who have made such pronouncements is not enough to make me believe it is the truth. As far as I have read the Cs information, I still haven't read anywhere about them making such a suggestion. What then prompted Laura to make such a provocative conclusion of the relationship between Jesus and Julius Ceasar? Could it be that Laura herself (whose work I still respect up to now) doesn't trust anymore the information she received from her channeling source?

If that is so, then what does this mean for the rest of us?

 

[Approaching Infinity]

The thing is, the whole pirate story strikes me as odd from the getgo especially if you read the accounts of Plutarch. If he got those accounts from Asinius Pollio, it is entirely possible that it was in code because, as you may know, the first report of the Mithraic Mysteries was that it was brought by "Cilician pirates". And what is in Cilicia? Tarsus and the home town of not just the apostle Paul, but also a whole bunch of Stoics.

Could pirates (especially in the case of 'kidnapping') be seen as 'fishers of men'?

 

[Approaching Infinity]

I somehow feel intimidated to say something about this discussion since so many 'knowledgeable' people have already established the 'truth' about this subject. But anyway, I just feel obligated to make my humble opinion by saying that, although I also do not believe in the myth of Jesus as portrayed in the Christian gospels, I nonetheless do not seriously think that he was somehow the same entity than the epileptic Roman Julius Seasar!

Maybe I am not too much intellectual than other folks posting in this thread, but I do think that I still have enough brain potential to analyse things and conclude that reality is a lot more complex than what people often want it to be. Simply the fact of reading a few authors who have made such pronouncements is not enough to make me believe it is the truth. As far as I have read the Cs information, I still haven't read anywhere about them making such a suggestion. What then prompted Laura to make such a provocative conclusion of the relationship between Jesus and Julius Ceasar? Could it be that Laura herself (whose work I still respect up to now) doesn't trust anymore the information she received from her channeling source?

If that is so, then what does this mean for the rest of us?

Well, perhaps try looking at it this way. I could easily write: "Simply the fact of reading a few [Cs' transcripts] who have made such pronouncements is not enough to make me believe it is the truth." There are a few things we need to keep in mind. First of all, the Cass Experiment is an experiment (though not in specific, scientific sense of the word, as Ark has pointed out). It really helps to read some of the history of the scientific study of the paranormal, like Deborah Blum's account of the Society for Psychical Research Ghost Hunters, to get an idea of how to approach such phenomena. Simply put, no matter what the source, nothing can or should be taken at face value. There are countless factors that can influence the information coming through a 'medium' (whether a trance medium, an automatic writer, or a group using a spirit board). This can include the psychodynamics (i.e., deep emotional motivations and desires) of those involved. Laura discusses this in the Wave series. The point is, everything the Cs say should be taken as information to be checked and compared to the data. Sometimes data isn't available to check, but where it is, it's up to us to verify and use our minds to figure stuff out on our own.

This approach doesn't just apply to paranormal phenomena like channeling, but to ALL sources of information. So in the case of Carotta and others' books, it's not just a case of reading a book, liking it, and assimilating the theory as true just because someone said it. (There are tons of books on the 'true identity' of Jesus, after all.) But in this specific case, our support of the theory is based on the evidence. It is a rational theory--self-consistent and adequate to the facts--in a way that none of the other theories are (even the Cs' story, based on what we know of the actual history of the time).

It's not a matter of Laura 'trusting' the Cs material or not. I don't think it ever has been. Laura's motto has always been '10% inspiration, 90% perspiration.' In other words: work. I don't think there's any such thing as infallible divine revelation. There are always other factors at play (e.g., emotional factors of participants, outside interference, etc.), and it's up to us to use our minds to put things together.

 

[Eboard10]

There was some deliberate collusion and "replacement" going on helped by the Jewish war. I also suspect some cosmic activity that helped in this regard that has subsequently been edited out, too.

Ok. Let me break down my thinking into simple terms with analogy to see if I'm on the right track.

There was a "replacement" effort prompted by the Jewish war. This was an alternate version of the Caesar story. Now like with the bell shaped curve of DNA within a population, I would strongly suspect that the popularity of this alternate version was somewhere at the margins of the bell shaped curve.

Ok. Then comes in cosmic events which changes the environment and somehow the alternate version was 'best suited' for the new environment (possibly endorsed by influential religious/political figures). But either way the majority of the bell shaped curve either died off or could no longer compete in the new environment with the alternate version, so the alternate version, being better suited, reproduced and became the majority of the bell shaped curve, so to speak.

If I look at it in this way, I can see the mechanisms between biological DNA and cultural DNA within a population are very similar and therefore it is understandable how such a switch could occur.

Good analogy Críostóir. I think you also need to take into account the fact that at the time, knowledge was only available to the higher classes and communication was very slow compared to our days so the manipulation of information would have been a lot easier and the feats of a person (or two) could have been changed and attributed to another character in a matter of a few generations especially when you make it look like it's coming from a distant region. Plus, as mentioned by Laura, when you factor in cosmic events, the speed of such changes whether intentional or not can grow exponentially.

 

[H-KQGE]

This may be the wrong place to post but i just want to say what grabbed me (amongst many) most in HoM was the possibility/probability of psychopaths emerging from the aftermath of cometary bombardment. Not just that, but the whole werewolf, vampire themes stemming from genetic mutations during or after the abovementioned fires from the sky. I mean wow! Certain genes being triggered (in those who survived & closed in others) in survivors who may have had a defective instinctive substratum, giants, dwarves (probably with high bloodlusts) & all the rest, i don't know about you, but that thought is is more disconcerting than impending global famine & plague. Imagine surviving that & these types spring up out of the blue!

I wonder how that would fit in with the inception of religion, the ideas of supernatural forces & the correlation of "divinity" felt inside of each human with the worship of "the fallen", as it seems an early point of worshipping that which is outside of oneself was the patterns of belief, governed through specific ideas. (relating of course back to witnessing fiery snakes from above & other anthropomorphic shapes - plus the audio shocks as well)

 

[Laura]

Ok. Let me break down my thinking into simple terms with analogy to see if I'm on the right track.

There was a "replacement" effort prompted by the Jewish war. This was an alternate version of the Caesar story. Now like with the bell shaped curve of DNA within a population, I would strongly suspect that the popularity of this alternate version was somewhere at the margins of the bell shaped curve.

It's not that simple. You really need to read Carotta.

Ok. Then comes in cosmic events which changes the environment and somehow the alternate version was 'best suited' for the new environment (possibly endorsed by influential religious/political figures). But either way the majority of the bell shaped curve either died off or could no longer compete in the new environment with the alternate version, so the alternate version, being better suited, reproduced and became the majority of the bell shaped curve, so to speak.

Again, not quite that simple. But going in the right direction.

Its on my reading list. Now I want to skip ahead, but if I do that I usually don't learn as much as when I just go through it. Rats! I'll just stay the course.

Good idea. These secrets will not reveal themselves to you if you rush. I've been picking through the mud for many, many years now.

 

[John G]

The point is, everything the Cs say should be taken as information to be checked and compared to the data. Sometimes data isn't available to check, but where it is, it's up to us to verify and use our minds to figure stuff out on our own... There are always other factors at play (e.g., emotional factors of participants, outside interference, etc.), and it's up to us to use our minds to put things together.

And Laura has mentioned the Cs often seem a little to the left or right of the actual situation in literal terms. I could see that being especially true in areas where we can figure things out for ourselves. Also it's not like sessions are the only channeling Laura does; research itself can be channeling experience. Laura mentioned the Horns of Moses writing as being a channeling experience and the Cs once mentioned people channel without knowing it (this was in reference to a physicist friend of Ark and Laura's who pointed me towards Ark's work).

I also think it's interesting Laura didn't come across other human researchers for Caesar as Christ until after she had come to that realization herself. Things often seem set up for us to learn on our own (not held by the hand as the Cs say). Lots of god/goddess things turned out to be comet related and that too was left up to us to find. Even for things like diet (also comet related); it's not like the Cs were giving us much information directly. Information from the Cs is often most amazing when seen after you've learned things on your own.

That little to the left or right of the actual situation seems encoded to only make sense after you figured out the actual situation (and I think that's true for Caesar as Christ). Christ was mentioned as having three Roman mistresses by the Cs and via Carotta's linguistic (mistranslation) matching of Rome to Jerusalem that could certainly allow the Cs to move the venue symbolically away from the actual literal sitution. And birth dates can be births of the myth not the actual history, etc.

Might be interesting to know whether other things we can't check, like Christ being in another realm answering prayers, are Caesar thing too but I think the general idea of Caesar as Christ just checks out too well. Certainly lots of other things to check like the Josephus vs Paul mentioned earlier (Josephus had a Paul-like vision and both Paul in Acts and the Josephus autobiography are witness to a Free-man being executed).

I also came across something which is likely in Carotta's book (but not the online version) about Judas during an Amazon religion forum discussion. Judas at the beginning of Acts was mentioned in the Amazon forum and I had read Wikipedia's Brutus entry and they seemed to match so I replied:

Acts says that "Judas used the money to buy a field, but fell headfirst, and burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out. This field is called Akeldama or Field of Blood." while in the original for Brutus (via Wikipedia): he fled into the nearby hills... Brutus committed suicide. Among his last words were, according to Plutarch, "By all means must we fly; not with our feet, however, but with our hands." To me that sounds like Mithraic "flying" imagery (related to cometary cataclysm, there's a Caesar's comet). It's a Mithraic version of Sodom and Gomorrah.

I got back an interesting reply: Re: Plutarch -- Reminded me of the Acts of Peter, where Simon Magus (Paul alter ego?) where Simon kills someone with a thought, and Peter resurrects him. He then flies over Rome in a contest with Peter. I think Peter shoots him out of the sky in the flying contest.

All sorts of interesting things to check out.

 

[WIN 52]

I've been reading this interesting thread for awhile. But, the biggest conundrum over the Caesar/Christ connection isn't that Caesar was Christ, but rather how did the collective memory of the population fail. I mean if we try to imagine if someone tried to do the same with George Washington today, it would be totally absurd. George Washington, like Caesar, was a national hero. The major theme of Washington's story is commonly known. I would expect that it was the same with Caesar.

It seems like there would have to have been a mechanism by which the knowledge of Caesar, at the level of the individual, was unable to be passed to the next generation in some critical mass. If we look at the story of JFK's death, which is commonly known, and if another incident is told that is parallel to JFK, our first thought would be the noticing of the similarity to JFK. And if there were too many similarities, we would suspect something is up. I have been asking myself what would have to happen for a parallel story of JFK to gain the same prominence over the original as in the case with Caesar. To me the only thing that makes sense is that a critical mass of a generation that knows the original version would have to die off before that knowledge could be transmitted to the next generation.

Can't you see it?
The exact same thing is being played out in the USA and it is only 200 years since George, give it another 500 years.
Suppose a comet or 10 hits the US, this would allow the psychos(hiding in safety and emerging to control the remnants of society) an opportunity to re-write George's history and the US would no longer be a country of free men.

The way it is going today, being a free man in the US is only a dream, at best.

 

[Aithin Tusa Fein]

Well now I've got a somewhat of a bird's eye view of how this could happen. I know its not as simple as my analogy, but I just need to be oriented in the right direction conceptually. If I get hung up somewhere on the overview of a theory, I won't pay attention to the details. So it seems like all my questions can be answered in the material and I will read it first, to give myself a knowledge base of the subject, before any further speculation on my part. Thanks for all the input.

Ya'll go on ahead and I'll catch up later. lol

 

[Loire]

I somehow feel intimidated to say something about this discussion since so many 'knowledgeable' people have already established the 'truth' about this subject. But anyway, I just feel obligated to make my humble opinion by saying that, although I also do not believe in the myth of Jesus as portrayed in the Christian gospels, I nonetheless do not seriously think that he was somehow the same entity than the epileptic Roman Julius Seasar!

Maybe I am not too much intellectual than other folks posting in this thread, but I do think that I still have enough brain potential to analyse things and conclude that reality is a lot more complex than what people often want it to be. Simply the fact of reading a few authors who have made such pronouncements is not enough to make me believe it is the truth. As far as I have read the Cs information, I still haven't read anywhere about them making such a suggestion. What then prompted Laura to make such a provocative conclusion of the relationship between Jesus and Julius Ceasar? Could it be that Laura herself (whose work I still respect up to now) doesn't trust anymore the information she received from her channeling source?

If that is so, then what does this mean for the rest of us?

Well, perhaps try looking at it this way. I could easily write: "Simply the fact of reading a few [Cs' transcripts] who have made such pronouncements is not enough to make me believe it is the truth." There are a few things we need to keep in mind. First of all, the Cass Experiment is an experiment (though not in specific, scientific sense of the word, as Ark has pointed out). It really helps to read some of the history of the scientific study of the paranormal, like Deborah Blum's account of the Society for Psychical Research Ghost Hunters, to get an idea of how to approach such phenomena. Simply put, no matter what the source, nothing can or should be taken at face value. There are countless factors that can influence the information coming through a 'medium' (whether a trance medium, an automatic writer, or a group using a spirit board). This can include the psychodynamics (i.e., deep emotional motivations and desires) of those involved. Laura discusses this in the Wave series. The point is, everything the Cs say should be taken as information to be checked and compared to the data. Sometimes data isn't available to check, but where it is, it's up to us to verify and use our minds to figure stuff out on our own.

This approach doesn't just apply to paranormal phenomena like channeling, but to ALL sources of information. So in the case of Carotta and others' books, it's not just a case of reading a book, liking it, and assimilating the theory as true just because someone said it. (There are tons of books on the 'true identity' of Jesus, after all.) But in this specific case, our support of the theory is based on the evidence. It is a rational theory--self-consistent and adequate to the facts--in a way that none of the other theories are (even the Cs' story, based on what we know of the actual history of the time).

It's not a matter of Laura 'trusting' the Cs material or not. I don't think it ever has been. Laura's motto has always been '10% inspiration, 90% perspiration.' In other words: work. I don't think there's any such thing as infallible divine revelation. There are always other factors at play (e.g., emotional factors of participants, outside interference, etc.), and it's up to us to use our minds to put things together.

Thanks Infinithy for your insight. It somehow helped to shade some light to me about how to approach this topic and many others on this forum. So If I understand well your reasoning, all ideas discussed here (including the Cs materials) should only be taken as working theories on which to build up factual evidences. If this is the case, then it means that there can be no definitive answer to any question asked. Which also implies that this whole topic (about Jesus and Julious Ceasar) must only be taken as a food for thought. I don't know if I understood you well.

I might also find it useful to get the opinion of Laura , since she is the author of this thread :)

 

[shijing]

If this is the case, then it means that there can be no definitive answer to any question asked. Which also implies that this whole topic (about Jesus and Julious Ceasar) must only be taken as a food for thought. I don't know if I understood you well.

In as strict sense, that's what all science is -- the development of working hypotheses which eventually get sorted as evidence is accumulated until you settle on the strongest one, which becomes a theory. When the evidence becomes so overwhelming that all facts converge on a single explanation, it is generally accepted as "truth"; however, it's important to remember that it's always possible that some information discovered in the future may force a revision.

I might also find it useful to get the opinion of Laura , since she is the author of this thread :)

For now, I think the couple of replies Laura gave Críostóir above should help get you started.

 

[dantem]

There's so much intermixing of stories that I can hold here...

This Cilicia with Tarsus in it and the River Cydnus is most interesting! So Cleopatra's barge with the gilded poop resemble the Cilician pirate's brazen peak ships confiscated by Pompey!?

A real thriller indeed! Thanks! I'll go for a bit of Clodius now, while reading slowly through the book list.

P.S. Now I'm picturing an evil Octavian/Augustus/Divi Filius going 'Stalin' and subverting Caesar's history during his 40-years-Empire of Pax Romana , but I'll better read on than fly with my imagination.

 

[Nienna]

I somehow feel intimidated to say something about this discussion since so many 'knowledgeable' people have already established the 'truth' about this subject. But anyway, I just feel obligated to make my humble opinion by saying that, although I also do not believe in the myth of Jesus as portrayed in the Christian gospels, I nonetheless do not seriously think that he was somehow the same entity than the epileptic Roman Julius Seasar!

Maybe I am not too much intellectual than other folks posting in this thread, but I do think that I still have enough brain potential to analyse things and conclude that reality is a lot more complex than what people often want it to be. Simply the fact of reading a few authors who have made such pronouncements is not enough to make me believe it is the truth. As far as I have read the Cs information, I still haven't read anywhere about them making such a suggestion. What then prompted Laura to make such a provocative conclusion of the relationship between Jesus and Julius Ceasar? Could it be that Laura herself (whose work I still respect up to now) doesn't trust anymore the information she received from her channeling source?

If that is so, then what does this mean for the rest of us?

I would just like to add that Laura had already come to some conclusions about the Julius Caesar is Jesus Christ theory BEFORE reading the books recommended in this thread. She was actually very pleased to see that others before her had come to the same conclusions as it helps to verify her theories. In her research for the subsequent volumes of The Secret History, she found things that led her to this conclusion about Julius Caesar being the basis of the Jesus Christ myth that was mentioned in the first post in this thread.

 

[Mal7]

I came across a reference to the Tibetan "Epic of King Gesar" as possibly being originally about [Julius?] Caesar today. The Tibetan poem has a long history, pre-dating the arrival of Buddhism in Tibet, but Buddhist elements were then included in later redactions of the poem.

The Epic of King Gesar

The story of the legendary warrior Gesar is often described as the Tibetan national epic and as the longest poem in the world.
[. . .]
The location of Gesar's homeland, Ling, has been the subject of much debate. Current Tibetan and Chinese scholarship locates Ling in the eastern Tibetan region of Derge County in Sichuan. However, in some versions of the epic, Gesar is said to hail from Trom, "Rome," so that the name "Trom Gesar" has been explained as derived from the title "Caesar of Rome." If this is its true source, it is most likely because this title is known to have been used by Turkic kings ruling in the area of what is now Afghanistan, who were allies of the Tibetan empire during the eighth century.

- Sources of Tibetan Tradition, edited by Kurtis R. Schaeffer, Matthew T. Kapstein, and Gray Tuttle. NY: Columbia University Press, 2013, page 309.