Was Julius Caesar the real Jesus Christ?

[l apprenti de forgeron]

Not sure this has been mentioned before but it would be a good idea to update the Recommended Book's list to include a Julius Caesar section IMO.

Yes. This should especially be required reading for FOTCM members. It gives an all-new, and deeper, meaning to "Paleo-Christianity".

I've finished Carotta's book. The last part about how all of this transpired in history is brilliant. He notes in there, also, that Gary Courtney copy-edited the text.

We will be contacting him about getting copies available to people and perhaps having him on the radio show.

Amazing stuff.

Thank you very much Laura! And I'm going to buy Parenti's book named in the thread.

 

[shijing]

I have been following the mithra and comet direction and found this
the tauroctony is the painting in every mithraneum ...always the same arrangement of figures

Thanks, rrraven -- I'm just starting to look into mithraeums, and they are interesting. There could be some kind of cometary connection, and then there is the fact that many of them have churches built on top of them. The Wikipedia article on them mentions that "Many mithraea that follow this basic plan are scattered over much of the Roman Empire's former territory, particularly where the legions were stationed along the frontiers (such as Britain)" and "Most Mithraea can be dated between 100 B.C. and 300 A.D., mostly in the Roman Empire." So that stretches just across the period of Julius Caesar's life and the beginnings of the Jesus myth up to the spread of Christianity throughout the empire. It would be good to know how busy the sky was during that part of history.

 

[herondancer]

I've ordered several of the books recommended, and the first one to arrive was David Ulansey's book on Mithraism and the symbology of the tauroctony. He argues for it being the representation of the discovery of the precession of the equinoxes by one of the Stoics, which in the context of their understanding of cosmology, was literally a world-shaking piece of knowledge. It ties a lot of the threads about the Stoics in Horns of Moses together. And the icing on the cake is his making a very strong connection with the Perseus mythos! If you have to pick and choose among the books, make sure you get this one.

 

[shijing]

I've ordered several of the books recommended, and the first one to arrive was David Ulansey's book on Mithraism and the symbology of the tauroctony. He argues for it being the representation of the discovery of the precession of the equinoxes by one of the Stoics, which in the context of their understanding of cosmology, was literally a world-shaking piece of knowledge. It ties a lot of the threads about the Stoics in Horns of Moses together. And the icing on the cake is his making a very strong connection with the Perseus mythos! If you have to pick and choose among the books, make sure you get this one.

Thanks, herondancer -- moved to the top of the order list!

 

[Laura]

Exactly the connection I'm seeing.

I think Caesar met with Posidonius on Rhodes and that silly story about the pirates was just a cover. The odd thing is that I noticed some similarities in the story of Clodius as told by Appianus yesterday, including a "capture by pirates", so I think that some of Clodius "legend" was grafted onto Caesar.

Anyway, if Caesar met with Posidonius, if he read Posidonius, if he had a grasp of Stoicism as developed by Posidonius, which would have included the knowledge of cometary bombardment and the then theorized relationship between that and human behavior, then that would explain part of his drive to do what he did. He may have been the "father" in more ways than one. He may have been the "father" in the Mithraic mysteries followed by his soldiers. That may have explained the loyalty and cohesion of his troops.

Caesar had a keen, scientific mind: the mind of a physicist, mathematician, psychologist, engineer, and more. His greatest talent was to instantly take in all the features and variables of a situation and make the most of it. I would suggest that he was doing this on a more global level and literally trying to save humanity from themselves.

The odd thing is that Cato is referred to as the Stoic, but he is the least Stoic of the characters, and Caesar referred to as an epicurean or otherwise, and he was the MOST Stoic.

Cato and Cicero were both disgusting, pusillanimous creatures who probably suffered from some personality disorders and our history has been poisoned by their pathology ever since.

In any event, Caesar's true relationship to Stoicism comes through in some of the "sayings" of the NT that Mack identifies as "Cynic". Carotta shows how many things Caesar was known to say historically, became twisted due to translation, transposition, and later misunderstanding or politically driven edits.

What is interesting is, understanding this model of how a religion can come into being gives us tools for controlling our understanding of how Judaism came into being. I'm inclined to think that it came NOT from Egypt, but from Assyria. There is also a very strong similarity between the ancient Roman "story" and the Jewish "story". Too many correspondences to be just accidental.

What I like to do is just read the evidence, the ancient texts, combine that with the archaeology, and let the facts develop on their own without putting a theory out there first. You have to check the ancient stories against the archaeology FIRST.

 

[SeekinTruth]

Very interesting. I've actually been thinking quite a bit about all this in the last 10 days or so -- about how likely it is that Caesar would have known the inside scoop of cyclical cometary catastrophes and the relation of the "human experiential cycle" to these. That certainly would throw light on his drive to reform society, get a whole lot more justice and equality into place, and ameliorate/mitigate the widespread suffering as much as possible in general to avoid the worst type of destruction that would come down on humanity if things continued on as usual. And even his extraordinary, unprecedented clemency toward all would really serve this cause well, to get on with what was most pressing and set an example to boot.

I've started rereading ALL of HoM (for the third time) a couple of days ago and got about half way through. But got interrupted from reading yesterday. It's been really worth rereading it for more than why I set out to do so. Even other (e.g. psychological, etc.) things on my mind have been clarified again by the reread. I'm really looking forward to reading everything I can get my hands on from the reading list regarding all this. Caesar seems to have opened up so many avenues of inquiry to deepen the understanding of many other things studied over the last several years. :)

 

[Laura]

I've started rereading ALL of HoM (for the third time) a couple of days ago and got about half way through. But got interrupted from reading yesterday. It's been really worth rereading it for more than why I set out to do so. Even other (e.g. psychological, etc.) things on my mind have been clarified again by the reread. I'm really looking forward to reading everything I can get my hands on from the reading list regarding all this. Caesar seems to have opened up so many avenues of inquiry to deepen the understanding of many other things studied over the last several years. :)

I agree. Caesar is the key piece of the puzzle and links a whole lot of things together because he stood at the central place where they all coalesced. That is probably why the biography of his early years is "lost". Nevertheless, Michael Parenti does an excellent job working over the bio and the social situation of the time, clarifying how history has been twisted and distorted by the "winners" over and over again. Obviously, getting Caesar out of the central position was important because he was just too good a role model for the downtrodden and might make them believe that overturning the elite was not only a good idea, but possible.

Instead, they substituted a rather pusillanimous non-entity in his place who "gave himself up" to be crucified because the authorities were so right and righteous about everything. Their will prevailed.

Sickening.

 

[dantem]

Exactly the connection I'm seeing.

I think Caesar met with Posidonius on Rhodes and that silly story about the pirates was just a cover. The odd thing is that I noticed some similarities in the story of Clodius as told by Appianus yesterday, including a "capture by pirates", so I think that some of Clodius "legend" was grafted onto Caesar.

The story about the pirates was just a cover... sounds like Caesar practicing the 'strategic enclosure'. Had to find a way to go to Rhodes without being blamed to having affairs with 'enemies'?
Can it be that there was an entire army of pirates out there? Maybe they were only other populations committed to safeguard their own territories from evil empires or any dirty commercial lines via sea, like the Somalian pirates attacking those who only dock in there to destroy an entire land, sort of. Any external interference by ground was seen by the Romans as a 'barbarian attack', and any external interference by sea was a 'pirate attack'. Have I read somewhere that being 'a Syrian', or maybe simply Oriental, was a depreciative label for some time in Rome, at least until those territories were annexed to the empire(?). Don't know if it's the case here.

 

[Laura]

Exactly the connection I'm seeing.

I think Caesar met with Posidonius on Rhodes and that silly story about the pirates was just a cover. The odd thing is that I noticed some similarities in the story of Clodius as told by Appianus yesterday, including a "capture by pirates", so I think that some of Clodius "legend" was grafted onto Caesar.

The story about the pirates was just a cover... sounds like Caesar practicing the 'strategic enclosure'. Had to find a way to go to Rhodes without being blamed to having affairs with 'enemies'?
Can it be that there was an entire army of pirates out there? Maybe they were only other populations committed to safeguard their own territories from evil empires or any dirty commercial lines via sea, like the Somalian pirates attacking those who only dock in there to destroy an entire land, sort of. Any external interference by ground was seen by the Romans as a 'barbarian attack', and any external interference by sea was a 'pirate attack'. Have I read somewhere that being 'a Syrian', or maybe simply Oriental, was a depreciative label for some time in Rome, at least until those territories were annexed to the empire(?). Don't know if it's the case here.

The thing is, the whole pirate story strikes me as odd from the getgo especially if you read the accounts of Plutarch. If he got those accounts from Asinius Pollio, it is entirely possible that it was in code because, as you may know, the first report of the Mithraic Mysteries was that it was brought by "Cilician pirates". And what is in Cilicia? Tarsus and the home town of not just the apostle Paul, but also a whole bunch of Stoics.

 

[Laura]

Here is Plutarch's pirate story from his "Life of Pompey":

1) The power of the pirates had its seat in Cilicia at first, and at the outset it was venturesome and elusive; but it took on confidence and boldness during the Mithridatic war because it lent itself to the king's service. … the Romans were embroiled in civil wars at the gates of Rome, the sea was left unguarded, and gradually drew and enticed them on until they no longer attacked navigators only, but also laid waste islands and maritime cities. And presently men whose wealth gave them power, and those whose lineage was illustrious, and those who laid claim to superior intelligence, began to embark on piratical craft and share their enterprises, feeling that the occupation brought them a certain reputation and distinction.

2) There were also fortified roadsteads and signal-stations for piratical craft in many places, and fleets put in here which were not merely furnished for their peculiar work with sturdy crews, skilful pilots, and light and speedy ships; nay, more annoying than the fear which they inspired was the odious extravagance of their equipment, with their gilded sails, and purple awnings, and silvered oars, as if they rioted in their iniquity and plumed themselves upon it.

3) Their flutes and stringed instruments and drinking bouts along every coast, their seizures of persons in high command, and their ransomings of captured cities, were a disgrace to the Roman supremacy. For, you see, the ships of the pirates numbered more than a thousand, and the cities captured by them four hundred.

4) Besides, they attacked and plundered places of refuge and sanctuaries hitherto inviolate, such as those of Claros, Didyma, and Samothrace; the temple of Chthonian Earth at Hermione; that of Asclepius in Epidaurus; those of Poseidon at the Isthmus, at Taenarum, and at Calauria; those of Apollo at Actium and Leucas; and those of Hera at Samos, at Argos, and at Lacinium. They also offered strange sacrifices of their own at Olympus, and celebrated there certain secret rites, among which those of Mithras continue to the present time, having been first instituted by them.

5) But they heaped most insults upon the Romans, even going up from the sea along their roads and plundering there, and sacking the neighbouring villas. Once, too, they seized two praetors, Sextilius and Bellinus, in their purple-edged robes, and carried them away, together with their attendants and lictors. They also captured a daughter of Antonius, a man who had celebrated a triumph, as she was going into the country, and exacted a large ransom for her.

6) But their crowning insolence was this. Whenever a captive cried out that he was a Roman and gave his name, they would pretend to be frightened out of their senses, and would smite their thighs, and fall down before him entreating him to pardon them; and he would be convinced of their sincerity, seeing them so humbly suppliant. Then some would put Roman boots on his feet, and others would throw a toga round him, in order, forsooth, that there might be no mistake about him again. And after thus mocking the man for a long time and getting their fill of amusement from him, at last they would let down a ladder in mid ocean and bid him disembark and go on his way rejoicing; and if he did not wish to go, they would push him overboard themselves and drown him.

7) This power extended its operations over the whole of our Mediterranean Sea, making it unnavigable and closed to all commerce. This was what most of all inclined the Romans, who were hard put to it to get provisions and expected a great scarcity, to send out Pompey with a commission to take the sea away from the pirates.

8) Gabinius, one of Pompey's intimates, drew up a law which gave him, not an admiralty, but an out-and-out monarchy and irresponsible power over all men. For the law gave him dominion over the sea this side of the pillars of Hercules, over all the mainland to the distance of four hundred furlongs from the sea. These limits included almost all places in the Roman world, and the greatest nations and most powerful kings were comprised within them. Besides this, he was empowered to choose fifteen legates from the senate for the several principalities, and to take from the public treasuries and the tax-collectors as much money as he wished, and to have two hundred ships, with full power over the number and levying of soldiers and oarsmen.

9) When these provisions of the law were read in the assembly, the people received them with excessive pleasure, but the chief and most influential men of the senate thought that such unlimited and absolute power, while it was beyond the reach of envy, was yet a thing to be feared. Therefore they all opposed the law, with the exception of Caesar; he advocated the law, not because he cared in the least for Pompey, but because from the outset he sought to ingratiate himself with the people and win their support. The rest vehemently attacked Pompey. And when one of the consuls told him that if he emulated Romulus he would not escape the fate of Romulus, he was near being torn in pieces by the multitude.

10) Moreover, when Catulus came forward to speak against the law the people had regard enough for him to be quiet for some time; but after he had spoken at length in Pompey's praise and without any disparagement of him, and then counselled the people to spare such a man and not expose him to successive wars and perils, asking, "Whom else will you have if you lose him?" all with one accord replied, "Thyself." Catulus, accordingly, since he could not persuade them, retired; but when Roscius came forward to speak, no one would listen to him. He therefore made signs with his fingers that they should not choose Pompey alone to this command, but give him a colleague. At this, we are told, the people were incensed and gave forth such a shout that a raven flying over the forum was stunned by it and fell down into the throng. From this it appears that such falling of birds is not due to a rupture and division of the air wherein a great vacuum is produced, but that they are struck by the blow of the voice, which raises a surge and billow in the air when it is born aloft loud and strong.

11) For the time being, then, the assembly was dissolved; but when the day came for the vote upon the law, Pompey withdrew privately into the country. On hearing, however, that the law had been passed, he entered the city by night, feeling that he was sure to awaken envy if the people thronged to meet him. But when day came, he appeared in public and offered sacrifice, and at an assembly held for him he managed to get many other things besides those already voted, and almost doubled his armament. For five hundred ships were manned for him, and a hundred and twenty thousand men-at arms and five thousand horsemen were raised. Twenty-four men who had held command or served as praetors were chosen from the senate by him, and he had two quaestors. And since the prices of provisions immediately fell, the people were moved to say in their joy that the very name of Pompey had put an end to the war.

12) However, he divided the waters and the adjacent coasts39 of the Mediterranean Sea into thirteen districts, and assigned to each a certain number of ships with a commander, and with his forces thus scattered in all quarters he encompassed whole fleets of piratical ships that fell in his way, and straightway hunted them down and brought them into port; others succeeded in dispersing and escaping, and sought their hive, as it were, hurrying from all quarters into Cilicia. Against these Pompey intended to proceed in person with his sixty best ships. He did not, however, sail against them until he had entirely cleared of their pirates the Tyrrhenian Sea, the Libyan Sea, and the sea about Sardinia, Corsica, and Sicily, in forty days all told. This was owing to his own tireless energy and the zeal of his lieutenants.

13) But the consul Piso at Rome, out of wrath and envy, was interfering with Pompey's equipment and discharging his crews; Pompey therefore sent his fleet round to Brundisium, [Brindisi on the Adriatic coast] while he himself went up by way of Tuscany to Rome. On learning of this, the citizens all streamed out into the road, just as if they had not escorted him forth only a few days before. What caused their joy was the unhoped for rapidity of the change, the market being now filled to overflowing with provisions. As a consequence Piso came near being deprived of his consulship, and Gabinius had the requisite law already written out. But Pompey prevented this, as well as other hostile acts, and after arranging everything else in a reasonable manner and getting what he wanted, went down to Brundisium and set sail.

14) But though his immediate business was urgent and he sailed past other cities in his haste, still, he could not pass Athens by, but went up into the city, sacrificed to the gods, and addressed the people. Just as he was leaving the city, he read two inscriptions, each of a single verse, addressed to him, one inside the gate:

"As thou knowest thou art mortal, in so far thou art a god;"
and the other outside:
"We awaited, we saluted, we have seen, and now conduct thee forth."

15) Some of the pirate bands that were still rowing at large begged for mercy, and since he treated them humanely, and after seizing their ships and persons did them no further harm, the rest became hopeful of mercy too, and made their escape from the other commanders, betook themselves to Pompey with their wives and children, and surrendered to him. All these he spared, and it was chiefly by their aid that he tracked down, seized, and punished those who were still lurking in concealment because conscious of unpardonable crimes.

16) But the most numerous and powerful had bestowed their families and treasures and useless folk in forts and strong citadels near the Taurus mountains, while they themselves manned their ships and awaited Pompey's attack near the promontory of Coracesium in Cilicia; here they were defeated in a battle and then besieged. At last, however, they sent suppliant messages and surrendered themselves, together with the cities and islands of which they were in control; these they had fortified, making them hard to get at and difficult to take by storm.

17) The war was therefore brought to an end and all piracy driven from the sea in less than three months, and besides many other ships, Pompey received in surrender ninety which had brazen beaks. The men themselves, who were more than twenty thousand in number, he did not once think of putting to death; and yet to let them go and suffer them to disperse or band together again, poor, warlike, and numerous as they were, he thought was not well.

18) Reflecting, therefore, that by nature man neither is nor becomes a wild or an unsocial creature, but is transformed by the unnatural practice of vice, whereas he may be softened by new customs and a change of place and life; also that even wild beasts put off their fierce and savage ways when they partake of a gentler mode of life, he determined to transfer the men from the sea to land, and let them have a taste of gentle life by being accustomed to dwell in cities and to till the ground. Some of them, therefore, were received and incorporated into the small and half-deserted cities of Cilicia, which acquired additional territory; and after restoring the city of Soli, which had lately been devastated by Tigranes, the king of Armenia, Pompey settled many there. To most of them, however, he gave as residence Dyme in Achaea, which was then bereft of men and had much good land.

19) Well, then, his maligners found fault with these measures, and even his best friends were not pleased with his treatment of Metellus in Crete. Metellus, a kinsman of the Metellus who was a colleague of Pompey in Spain, had been sent as general to Crete before Pompey was chosen to his command; for Crete was a kind of second source for pirates, next to Cilicia.

20) Metellus hemmed in many of them and was killing and destroying them. But those who still survived and were besieged sent suppliant messages to Pompey and invited him into the island, alleging that it was a part of his government, and that all parts of it were within the limit to be measured from the sea. Pompey accepted the invitation and wrote to Metellus putting a stop to his war. He also wrote the cities not to pay any attention to Metellus, and sent them one of his own officers as general, namely, Lucius Octavius, who entered the strongholds of the besieged pirates and fought on their side, thus making Pompey not only odious and oppressive, but actually ridiculous, since he lent his name to godless miscreants, and threw around them the mantle of his reputation to serve like a charm against evil, through envy and jealousy of Metellus. For not even Achilles played the part of a man, men said, but that of a youth wholly crazed and frantic in his quest of glory, when he made a sign to the rest which prevented them from smiting Hector: "Lest some one else win honour by the blow, and he come only second" …whereas Pompey actually fought in behalf of the common enemy and saved their lives, that he might rob of his triumph a general who had toiled hard to win it. Metellus, however, would not give in, but captured the pirates and punished them, and then sent Octavius away after insulting and abusing him before the army.

21) When word was brought to Rome that the war against the pirates was at an end, and that Pompey, now at leisure, was visiting the cities, Manlius, one of the popular tribunes, proposed a law giving Pompey all the country and forces which Lucullus commanded, with the addition, too, of Bithynia, which Glabrio had, and the commission to wage war upon Mithridates.

 

[Laura]

Now, here is the reference to the pirates in Plutarch's "Life of Julius Caesar":

1 1 The wife of Caesar1 was Cornelia, the daughter of the Cinna who had once held the sole power at Rome,2 and when Sulla became master of affairs,3 he could not, either by promises or threats, induce Caesar to put her away, and therefore confiscated her dowry. 2 Now, the reason for Caesar's hatred of Sulla was Caesar's relationship to Marius. For Julia, a sister of Caesar's father, was the wife of Marius the Elder, and the mother of Marius the Younger, who was therefore Caesar's cousin. 3 Moreover, Caesar was not satisfied to be overlooked at first by Sulla, who was busy with a multitude of proscriptions, but he came before the people as candidate for the priesthood, although he was not yet much more than a stripling. 4 To this candidacy Sulla secretly opposed himself, and took measures to make Caesar fail in it, and when he was deliberating about putting him to death and some said there was no reason for killing a mere boy like him, he declared that they had no sense if they did not see in this boy many Mariuses.4 5 When this speech was reported to Caesar, he hid himself for some time, wandering about in the country of the Sabines. 6 Then, as he was changing his abode by night on account of sickness, he fell in with soldiers of Sulla who p445were searching those regions and arresting the men in hiding there. 7 Caesar gave their leader, Cornelius, two talents to set him free, and at once went down to the sea and sailed to King Nicomedes in Bithynia.5 8 With him he tarried a short time, and then, on his voyage back,6 was captured, near the island Pharmacusa, by pirates, who already at that time controlled the sea with large armaments and countless small vessels.

2 1 To begin with, then, when the pirates demanded twenty talents for his ransom, he laughed at them for not knowing who their captive was, and of his own accord agreed to give them fifty. 2 In the next place, after he had sent various followers to various cities to procure the money and was left with one friend and two attendants among Cilicians, most murderous of men, he held them in such disdain that whenever he lay down to sleep he would send and order them to stop talking. 3 For eight and thirty days, as if the men were not his watchers, but his royal body-guard, he shared in their sports and exercises with great unconcern. 4 He also wrote poems and sundry speeches which he read aloud to them, and those who did not admire these he would call to their faces illiterate Barbarians, and often laughingly threatened to hang them all. The pirates were delighted at this, and attributed his boldness of speech to a certain simplicity and boyish mirth. 5 But after his ransom had come from Miletus and he had paid it and was set free, he immediately manned vessels and put to sea from the harbour p447of Miletus against the robbers. He caught them, too, still lying at anchor off the island, and got most of them into his power. 6 Their money he made his booty, but the men themselves he lodged in the prison at Pergamum, and then went in person to Junius, the governor of Asia, on the ground that it belonged to him, as praetor of the province, to punish the captives. 7 But since the praetor cast longing eyes on their money, which was no small sum, and kept saying that he would consider the case of the captives at his leisure, Caesar left him to his own devices, went to Pergamum, took the robbers out of prison, and crucified them all, just as he had often warned them on the island that he would do, when they thought he was joking.

3 1 After this, Sulla's power being now on the wane, and Caesar's friends at home inviting him to return, Caesar sailed to Rhodes7 to study under Apollonius the son of Molon, an illustrious rhetorician with the reputation of a worthy character, of whom Cicero also was a pupil.

Also take a look at this:

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/~grout/encyclopaedia_romana/miscellanea/cleopatra/egypt.html

Writing almost two centuries after the events he describes, Appian is the only other ancient authority to speak of the sojourn of Caesar and Cleopatra. "He made a voyage on the Nile to look at the country with a flotilla of 400 ships in the company of Cleopatra, and enjoyed himself with her in other ways as well" (The Civil Wars, II.90; also Dio, XLII.45.1 "She would have detained him even longer in Egypt..."). No more contemporary sources mention the cruise, however, and, given the relatively brief time Caesar remained in Alexandria, it is possible that the voyage did not occur or was only of short duration.

It is unlikely that the royal barge ever was used by Cleopatra, however, as Athenaeus concludes by saying that the wealth of Egypt had been dissipated by her father Ptolemy XII Auletes ("flute-player"), leaving little money by the time she ascended the throne. Indeed, Cleopatra did not even mint any gold coins.

 

[Laura]

Here is a passage from Plutarch's "Life of Anthony". Notice the description of Cleopatra's barge and compare it to similar descriptions of pirates in Pompey's "Life".

{...} This speech made a powerful impression upon Antony; for he was ignorant of most that was going on, not so much because he was of an easy disposition, as because he was simple enough to trust those about him.

For there was simplicity in his nature, and slowness of perception, though when he did perceive his errors he showed keen repentance, and made full acknowledgement to the very men who had been unfairly dealt with, and there was largeness both in p191his restitution to the wronged and in his punishment of the wrong-doers. Yet he was thought to exceed due bounds more in conferring favours than in inflicting punishments. 7 And his wantonness in mirth and jest carried its own remedy with it. For a man might pay back his jests and insolence, and he delighted in being laughed at no less than in laughing at others. And this vitiated most of his undertakings. For he could not believe that those who used bold speech in jest could flatter him in earnest, and so was easily captivated by their praises, 8 not knowing that some men would mingle bold speech, like a piquant sauce, with flattery, and thus would take away from flattery its cloying character. Such men would use their bold babbling over the cups to make their submissive yielding in matters of business seem to be the way, not of those who associate with a man merely to please him, but of those who are vanquished by superior wisdom.

25 1 Such, then, was the nature of Antony, where now as a crowning evil his love for Cleopatra supervened, roused and drove to frenzy many of the passions that were still hidden and quiescent in him, and dissipated and destroyed whatever good and saving qualities still offered resistance. And he was taken captive in this manner. As he was getting ready for the Parthian war, he sent to Cleopatra, ordering her to meet him in Cilicia in order to make answer to the charges made against her of raising and giving to Cassius much money for the war. 2 But Dellius, Antony's messenger, when he saw how Cleopatra looked, and noticed her subtlety and cleverness in conversation, at once p193perceived that Antony would not so much as think of doing such a woman any harm, but that she would have the greatest influence with him. He therefore resorted to flattery and tried to induce the Egyptian to go to Cilicia "decked out in fine array"27 (as Homer would say), and not to be afraid of Antony, who was the most agreeable and humane of commanders. 3 She was persuaded by Dellius, and judging by the proofs which she had had before this of the effect of her beauty upon Caius Caesar and Gnaeus the son of Pompey, she had hopes that she would more easily bring Antony to her feet. For Caesar and Pompey had known her when she was still a girl and inexperienced in affairs, but she was going to visit Antony at the very time when women have the most brilliant beauty and are at the acme of intellectual power. 4 Therefore she provided herself with many gifts, much money, and such ornaments as high position and prosperous kingdom made it natural for her to take; but she went putting her greatest confidence in herself, and in the charms and sorceries of her own person.

26 1 Though she received many letters of summons both from Antony himself and from his friends, she so despised and laughed the man to scorn as to sail up the river Cydnus in a barge with gilded poop, its sails spread purple, its rowers urging it on with silver oars to the sound of the flute blended with pipes and lutes. 2 She herself reclined beneath a canopy spangled with gold, adorned like Venus in a painting, while boys like Loves in paintings stood on either side and fanned her. Likewise also the p195fairest of her serving-maidens, attired like Nereïds and Graces, were stationed, some at the rudder-sweeps, and others at the reefing-ropes. Wondrous odours from countless incense-offerings diffused themselves along the river-banks. 3 Of the inhabitants, some accompanied her on either bank of the river from its very mouth, while others went down from the city to behold the sight. The throng in the market-place gradually streamed away, until at last Antony himself, seated on his •tribunal, was left alone. And a rumour spread on every hand that Venus was come to revel with Bacchus for the good of Asia.

 

[Laura]

Now, you can get some preliminary info about Clodius here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Publius_Clodius_Pulcher
and here:
http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/romansc/p/032110ClodiusPulcher.htm

but best to read Appian's whole account of the civil wars which is likely almost entirely dependent on Asinius Pollio's.

A curious incident took place during his time in pirate hands which was to have later consequences. The pirates sought a good ransom price from Ptolemy of Cyprus, a nominal ally of Rome who was then involved in negotiations for a potential marriage to a daughter of Mithradates VI of Pontus. Ptolemy sent a fairly trivial sum which so amused the pirates that they released Clodius without taking any money. He had evidently been overestimating his worth, and this transaction filled him with hatred for the Cypriot ruler.

And this strange series of events:

Clodius, however, soon became bored with his newly respectable family life and began a liaison with Pompeia, the sister of his closest friend Q. Pompeius Rufus (tribune in 52),[14] and wife of Julius Caesar, who was then the pontifex maximus.[15] The rites of the Bona Dea were held at Caesar's home that year, as the consuls were seriously ill (they both died soon afterwards). This was a cult from which men were excluded, so completely that they were not permitted to know or even speak the goddess's name, and hence used the euphemism "Good Goddess". The rites took place in December each year in the home of a senior magistrate. Terentia had presided in 63 at the home she shared with her husband (and one of the two consuls for that year), Cicero. In 62 the rites were held in the Regia, which then served as Caesar's residence, and presided over by his wife Pompeia and his mother Aurelia. Clodius went in dressed as a woman, and sought out Pompeia, but was discovered by a servant girl when forced to speak. The ensuing scandal dragged on for months, during which Pompey returned from the east, Caesar divorced his wife, and most public business was suspended. Lucullus had determined to use the opportunity to destroy Clodius' political career, and eventually he was tried on the capital charge of incestus (sexual immorality). Three Corneli Lentuli prosecuted,[16] the senior of whom is thought to have been L. Lentulus Crus (later pr.58, cos.49). Gaius Curio pater, consul in 76, was the vigorous chief advocate. The evidence was conclusive. Lucullus provided numerous slaves from his household to testify to Clodius' incest with his sister when she had been his wife, the same Claudia who had attempted to supplant Terentia as Cicero's wife.[citation needed] Caesar's mother Aurelia and sister Julia testified to Clodius' violation of the rites in the Regia. Caesar did his best to help Clodius by claiming he knew nothing. When asked in turn why he divorced his wife if he knew nothing, Caesar made the famous response that Caesar's wife had to be beyond suspicion.[17] Clodius perjured himself with a fabricated alibi that he was not in Rome on the day of the rites, which Cicero was in a position to refute, though he was uncertain whether he should do so. Eventually national and domestic politics forced his hand. He was most eager to forge a détente between Lucullus and Pompey, who were at loggerheads over the settlement of the eastern provinces, and wished to do Lucullus a favour in this matter, while at home Terentia demanded that he give his testimony and ensure the destruction of her subversive rival's brother and lover. Cicero did so, but Crassus decided the outcome of the trial by bribery of the jurors en masse to secure Clodius' acquittal.

When it was all over Clodius' politics had been transformed and became more deeply personal than ever before. He clung to Crassus[citation needed] as his chief benefactor, and was grateful to Caesar for his attempt to help him.

His war against the evil Cicero:

On his return from Sicily (where he had been Quaestor between 61 BC and 60 BC), Clodius chose to renounce his Patrician rank in order to hold a tribunate of plebs, which was not permitted to patricians. In 59 BC, during Caesar's first consulship, Clodius was able to enact a transfer to plebeian status by getting himself adopted by a certain P. Fonteius, probably a distant relative. The process violated almost every proper form of adoption in Rome, which was a serious business involving clan and family rituals and inheritance rights. On 16 November, Clodius took office as tribune of the plebs and began preparations for his destruction of Cicero and an extensive populist legislative program in order to bind as much of the community as possible to his policies as beneficiaries. ...

As tribune Clodius introduced a law threatening exile to anyone who executed a Roman citizen without a trial. Cicero, having executed members of the Catiline conspiracy four years before without formal trial, and having had a public falling-out with Clodius, was clearly the intended target of the law. Cicero argued that the senatus consultum ultimum indemnified him from punishment, and he attempted to gain the support of the senators and consuls, especially of Pompey. When help was not forthcoming, he went into exile. He arrived at Thessalonica, Greece on May 29, 58 BC.[28] The day Cicero left Italy into exile, Clodius proposed another law which forbade Cicero approaching within 400 miles (640 km) of Italy and confiscated his property. The bill was passed forthwith, and Cicero's villa on the Palatine was destroyed by Clodius' supporters, as were his villas in Tusculum and Formiae.[28][29] Cicero's property was confiscated by order of Clodius, his mall on the Palatine burned down, and its site put up for auction. It was purchased by Clodius himself, who, not wishing his name to appear in the matter, had someone else place the bid for him.

Clodius ... wasted no time enacting a substantial legislative programme. The Leges Clodiae included setting up a regular dole of free grain, which used to be distributed monthly at variously and heavily discounted prices, but was now to be given away at no charge, thereby increasing Clodius' political status. Clodius also abolished the right of taking the omens on a fixed day and (if they were declared unfavourable) of preventing the assembly of the comitia, possessed by every magistrate by the terms of the Lex Aelia Fufia. He re-established the old social and political clubs or guilds of workmen, and the censors were forbidden from excluding any citizen from the Senate or inflicting any punishment upon him unless he had been publicly tried and convicted.

And finally, his death:

In 53 BC, when Milo was a candidate for the consulship, and Clodius for the praetorship, the rivals collected armed bands and clashed in the streets of Rome. Some sources state that on December 6, 53 BC, by chance Clodius and Milo (each accompanied by an armed escort) passed each other on the Appian Way near Bovillae. A fight erupted between members of the two groups, and Clodius died in the ensuing mêlée. His enraged clients built his funeral pyre in the Curia, which ignited the building and ultimately burned it down.

Bovillae, by the way, was the ancient home of the Julian clan and is probably the reason for the symbolism of the Ox at the manger at the birth of "Jesus" though an entirely different reason is given when this story is reassigned to Augustus. I suspect that it is Gaius Julius Caesar's infancy story.

 

[Aithin Tusa Fein]

I've been reading this interesting thread for awhile. But, the biggest conundrum over the Caesar/Christ connection isn't that Caesar was Christ, but rather how did the collective memory of the population fail. I mean if we try to imagine if someone tried to do the same with George Washington today, it would be totally absurd. George Washington, like Caesar, was a national hero. The major theme of Washington's story is commonly known. I would expect that it was the same with Caesar.

It seems like there would have to have been a mechanism by which the knowledge of Caesar, at the level of the individual, was unable to be passed to the next generation in some critical mass. If we look at the story of JFK's death, which is commonly known, and if another incident is told that is parallel to JFK, our first thought would be the noticing of the similarity to JFK. And if there were too many similarities, we would suspect something is up. I have been asking myself what would have to happen for a parallel story of JFK to gain the same prominence over the original as in the case with Caesar. To me the only thing that makes sense is that a critical mass of a generation that knows the original version would have to die off before that knowledge could be transmitted to the next generation.

 

[Laura]

I've been reading this interesting thread for awhile. But, the biggest conundrum over the Caesar/Christ connection isn't that Caesar was Christ, but rather how did the collective memory of the population fail. I mean if we try to imagine if someone tried to do the same with George Washington today, it would be totally absurd. George Washington, like Caesar, was a national hero. The major theme of Washington's story is commonly known. I would expect that it was the same with Caesar.

There was some deliberate collusion and "replacement" going on helped by the Jewish war. I also suspect some cosmic activity that helped in this regard that has subsequently been edited out, too.

It seems like there would have to have been a mechanism by which the knowledge of Caesar, at the level of the individual, was unable to be passed to the next generation in some critical mass. If we look at the story of JFK's death, which is commonly known, and if another incident is told that is parallel to JFK, our first thought would be the noticing of the similarity to JFK. And if there were too many similarities, we would suspect something is up. I have been asking myself what would have to happen for a parallel story of JFK to gain the same prominence over the original as in the case with Caesar. To me the only thing that makes sense is that a critical mass of a generation that knows the original version would have to die off before that knowledge could be transmitted to the next generation.

See above and also note that, in general, Carotta addresses that pretty thoroughly in the last section of his book.