Was Julius Caesar the real Jesus Christ?

[shijing]

Scholars (even those who doubt Jesus' historicity) generally accept that Paul was a real historical figure. However, his 'authentic' letters have several 'interpolations' or editorial insertions by unknown scribes. Courtney has a chapter on Paul in his book, but you can also check out Mack's "Who Wrote the New Testament".

Thanks AI -- I'm hopefully going to order a copy of Courtney's book soon. Do you (or does anyone) happen to know if Bart Ehrman deals with Paul very extensively in any of his books?

 

[Laura]

In line with that, one question I have is how historically real Paul himself actually was. My present understanding is that the works traditionally attributed to him were actually written and redacted by multiple authors -- so Paul is either an amalgamation of an original person plus subsequent others, or there was never really an actual "Paul" in the first place. Is there any better evidence for Paul's historical existence than there is for Jesus's (I mean the "traditional" Jesus)?

Carotta suggests that Paul and Josephus may have been one and the same person. I'm not sure about this though it certainly has some plausible elements that he sketches out briefly. I'm inclined to think that Paul may have been a "thorn in the flesh" of Josephus and his Flavians and they had to deal with him somehow. Carotta points out that Josephus' own biography is almost point by point a recitation of the history of Paul as recounted in the book of Acts.

I'm going to have to finish Atwill's book now, which I laid aside, and see what other interesting correspondences he has found between the NT and the works of Josephus. Carotta certainly thinks that Josephus was the master redactor and possibly even the author of the book of Matthew which is also what Atwill thinks. But it was based, of course, on the older book of Mark which was based on Asinius Pollio's Historiae and included the liturgical passion play of the crucifixion/cremation.

Anyway, reading Carotta's evidence is a real roller coaster and then, how he puts it together in the final chapter sorts out a lot of questions that grow during the reading of the evidence. His book deals almost exclusively with the book of Mark, the oldest gospel, and even there, he points out that there are at least 3 layers.

 

[shijing]

Carotta suggests that Paul and Josephus may have been one and the same person. I'm not sure about this though it certainly has some plausible elements that he sketches out briefly. I'm inclined to think that Paul may have been a "thorn in the flesh" of Josephus and his Flavians and they had to deal with him somehow. Carotta points out that Josephus' own biography is almost point by point a recitation of the history of Paul as recounted in the book of Acts.

I'm going to have to finish Atwill's book now, which I laid aside, and see what other interesting correspondences he has found between the NT and the works of Josephus. Carotta certainly thinks that Josephus was the master redactor and possibly even the author of the book of Matthew which is also what Atwill thinks. But it was based, of course, on the older book of Mark which was based on Asinius Pollio's Historiae and included the liturgical passion play of the crucifixion/cremation.

The thing I like best about Barbiero's book so far (I'm about 2/3 through it) is that he provides a good working theory about how and why the books of the Old Testament were revised for political reasons that are mostly understandable and not too "out there" -- two of the biggest perpetrators in his view were Josephat and Ezra, but he spends a lot of time on Josephus (and the Flavians) in particular. He takes Paul's historical existence for granted, but if Carotta is correct, I think it would actually strengthen his theory about Josephus. I need to get a lot more reading done before I can really begin to understand what might have been going on there -- your suggestion about Paul and Josephus is interesting, though, and I'm becoming increasingly interested in these two figures in particular in light of the whole Jesus-Caesar connection.

 

[Laura]

The thing I like best about Barbiero's book so far (I'm about 2/3 through it) is that he provides a good working theory about how and why the books of the Old Testament were revised for political reasons that are mostly understandable and not too "out there" -- two of the biggest perpetrators in his view were Josephat and Ezra, but he spends a lot of time on Josephus (and the Flavians) in particular. He takes Paul's historical existence for granted, but if Carotta is correct, I think it would actually strengthen his theory about Josephus. I need to get a lot more reading done before I can really begin to understand what might have been going on there -- your suggestion about Paul and Josephus is interesting, though, and I'm becoming increasingly interested in these two figures in particular in light of the whole Jesus-Caesar connection.

The problem with the "Ezra" theories is that, if Gmirkin is correct, the Pentateuch was WRITTEN at the time it was supposedly translated as the Septuagint which is dated to the late 2nd century BC and, at the same time, it is likely that many other texts were modified and used as "the ancient writings of the Hebrews". Gmirkin's research is compelling for a lot of reasons. Ezra supposedly lived during the 6th century BC. It's really, REALLY, shaky to use ANYTHING in the OT as "history of Israel" at all. Big blunder, IMO, from the getgo. There may be some "history" in there, but it probably isn't that of Israel.

See van Seters, Lemche, Thompson, and others of the Copenhagen school on this topic.

 

[shijing]

The problem with the "Ezra" theories is that, if Gmirkin is correct, the Pentateuch was WRITTEN at the time it was supposedly translated as the Septuagint which is dated to the late 2nd century BC and, at the same time, it is likely that many other texts were modified and used as "the ancient writings of the Hebrews". Gmirkin's research is compelling for a lot of reasons. Ezra supposedly lived during the 6th century BC. It's really, REALLY, shaky to use ANYTHING in the OT as "history of Israel" at all. Big blunder, IMO, from the getgo. There may be some "history" in there, but it probably isn't that of Israel.

Well, that's interesting in view of the fact that that was right before the birth of Julius Caesar. In light of your discussion about that in Horns of Moses, and particularly the connections between the Old Testament patriarchs and their wives and Akhenaten and Nefertiti, there's another thing that Barbiero discusses involving Mithraism being the flip-side of Christianity -- the former the esoteric/political side for initiates, and the latter the religious side designed more or less for public consumption, the two spreading in parallel with each other:

In spite of its clear historical importance, the vast majority of people are unaware of the doctrinal contents and characteristics of Sol Invictus, perhaps because scholars normally avoid speaking about it or explaining how it succeeded in reaching such an elevated position. Above all, they avoid referring to it by another name, which is well known to the general public: Mithras. The reason for this reticence may lie in the widespread conviction that the worship of Mithras was for people of humble origins, slaves and freedmen, whereas Sol Invictus numbered among its followers emperors, senators, high-ranking bureaucrats, and military leaders. Yet there is no doubt that Sol Invictus and Mithras were one and the same. This is absolutely certain from countless inscriptions found in mithraea and on monuments dedicated to this divinity, where the name Mithras is always preceded by the appellation Sol Invictus or Deus Invictus.

Mithras and Sol Invictus are the same and inseparably linked to the same esoteric institution. The social differences found between its followers at the beginning of the second century and those in the early fourth century simply reflect the incredible rise of this institution in Roman society during the course of these two centuries. We should note, interestingly, that this rise is exactly parallel to the rise of Christianity, which, from its origins, was a religion of slaves and freedmen and, in the same two centuries, succeeded in counting among its followers emperors, senators, high-ranking bureaucrats, and military leaders. Further, in many cases that are historically proven (for example, in the case of Constantine), the followers of Sol Invictus were exactly the same as the followers of Christianity. It does not appear to be inappropriate, therefore, to try to understand the progress of Christianity by following that of the so-called cult of Mithras. We must, however, keep the facts as they have been gathered from historical and archaeological testimonies and must not be influenced by the interpretations and deliberate misinformation provided by the ancient and modern historians.

Most historians hypothesize -- or better, postulate -- that the cult of Mithras was imported into the Roman Empire from Persia, perhaps by soldiers who had served in the East. Yet this is only a hypothesis, somewhat vague and not backed up by any evidence. Among other aspects, it does not take into consideration the substantial difference in form and content that existed between the Oriental cult (actually of Mesopotamian, not Persian, origins) and the religion practiced in the Roman empire [...] It is important to underline that Sol Invictus Mithras was not a true religion, as the majority of historians continue to affirm, any more than modern Freemasonry is a religion dedicated to the worship of the Great Architect of the Universe.

The interesting connection is between Akhenaten's Aten (solar disk) on the one hand and Sol Invictus ("Unconquered Sun") on the other. If the Pentateuch was written as late as the late second century BC, then this only preceded the beginnings of the Jesus myth by at most a couple of centuries (Josephus having lived 37-100 AD) during which Julius Caesar lived and died, but represents a much older tradition based on the history of Akhenaten and Nefertiti. Is that going in the right direction at all?

 

[SMM]

Found this video documentary about Francesco Carotta and his idea about Jesus being Caesar:

The Gospel of Caesar:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwfY069iPVI

Documentary film about a linguist and a Catholic priest, who search for and find the origins of Christianity and the real historical Jesus: Julius Caesar.

Watching now...

I'm watching it now as well. WOW! I was definitely blind-sighted by this one. I don't if anyone else agrees, but it seems to me there are some striking parallels between the Julius Caesar and JFK dramas.

I'm about 35 minutes into it and indeed it is very striking and interesting (to put it mildly!).
Also the greek connection to what and how things are written in the bible is very intriguing!

Reminds me of what the C's had to say about "who wrote the bible":


Session 7 November 1994 (https://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,28375.msg353143.html#msg353143):

Q: (L) Why is Appolyon called the "destroyer" in Revelation?

A: Backward for sake of deception. Bible corrupted.

Q: (L) You have often stated that the Bible is corrupted, I would like to know who, exactly, corrupted the Bible and when and how they did this?

A: Illuminati brotherhood for a thousand earth years.

Q: (L) Does this mean that up until a thousand years ago the Bible was fairly accurate?

A: No.

Q: (L) Is there any possibility that the Catholic church had anything to do with this corrupting influence?

A: Yes.

Q: (L) Does the Catholic church have in its possession actual original texts of the Bible that have not been corrupted?

A: No.

Q: (L) Were there ever such texts in existence?

A: No.

Q: (L) Who wrote the book of Matthew?

A: Greek enforcers.

Q: (L) What are Greek enforcers?

A: Like your FBI.

Q: (L) Who wrote the book of Mark?

A: Same.

Q: (L) Luke and John?

A: Same?

Q: (L) Acts?

A: Same?

Q: (L) Are any books of the New Testament written by who they claim to be written by?

A: No. Remember this is 70% propaganda.

Q: (L) Is 30% then the truth or the actual teachings?

A: Close. Enough you must decipher from instinct through meditation.

So by judging what the linguists say in the video about the words in the bible and how the orginal greek versions of those words closely resemble the actual storys and words of Caesar, I think we might be looking at a Hit for the C's here...

I think it might be worthwhile to read again what the C's have said about Jesus and the bible in this new light of "Jesus being Caesar".
There might be some valuable fruits to find there...

I'm stunned and a bit baffled that not a whole lot more scholars have noticed those striking parallels of the Jesus story to Caesar's before...

Wow. I've caught glimpses of The Gospel of Caesar documentary. This is pretty earth-shattering stuff - neither JFK nor Caesar are areas I'd consider knowing a great deal on.
Looking forward to learning more on this

 

[rrraven]

I have been following the mithra and comet direction and found this
the tauroctony is the painting in every mithraneum ...always the same arrangement of figures

-http://www.tauroctony.com/

By changing some of the basic assumptions regarding the interpretation of key visual symbols in the tauroctony we can derive a simple, self-consistent and logical interpretation. If we reinterpret the bull, victim of the sacrifice, as a visual symbol for the Earth - rather than a representation of the constellation Taurus or a vessel that contains a life-giving force - then we begin to see that the tauroctony is both a portrayal of a geocentric cosmology and a set of concise instructions for viewing celestial manifestations of an otherwise invisible god.



The role of the scorpion, the snake and the dog within the tauroctony is to represent the three constellations of Scorpius, Hydra and Canis Minor, respectively. These constellations form a celestial arc. (The additional emblems of the lion and the cup represent the more northerly constellations of Leo and Crater, respectively, that simply supplement and aid in the locating of this celestial arc.) This arc marks a date. This date is the beginning of the month‑long Perseid meteor shower. The radiant (apparent point of origin) of the Perseid meteor shower is located at the head of the constellation of Perseus, which we linked to the god Mithras. The ideal time of night to view any meteor shower is just before sunrise and after the Moon has set. The tauroctony tells us just that: Sol (the Sun) is shown just about to rise and Luna (the Moon) is setting.



The meaning of the Cautes-Cautopates pair depends on their orientation. When Cautes is on the left side and Cautopates is on the right of the Mithras-bull pairing then they indicate the eastern and western cardinalities, respectively. They also indicate eastern and western horizons of the Earth, as represented by the bull.



When Cautes is to the right and Cautopates is to the left then they indicate the two halves of the celestial sphere. This orientation comes out the fact that the rising and setting of celestial bodies are less defined at more northerly latitudes. In this instance Cautopates and Cautes are reinforcing the information specified by the aforementioned celestial arc of constellations.



The constellation of Perseus, which we linked to the god Mithras, is itself located at the top of the Milky Way. The belief was that the stars of the Milky Way are souls waiting to be reborn. Furthermore, it was believed that the meteors of the Perseids are these souls descending to their new lives on Earth. Members of the cult probably believed that Mithras was the director and the embodiment of this process of rebirth. As Mithras pulls the bull, representing the Earth, towards the rising Sun, he watches for dawn and the signal to halt the rebirth of souls.
Since the primary mystery of the cult took place in the night sky, there was no need for a temple in which to present this ‘sacrament’ to the faithful. Anyone who knew the secret could witness it for themselves. The mithraeum did serve a purpose however. Many perhaps were private chapels. Certainly, they were meeting places, places for communal meals and instruction; a place to hide and secure sacred images and objects. Its curious construction leads one to believe that it may also have served much the same purpose as our modern planetarium.
Cult members probably saw the nature of the Universe as being molten, metallic and fire-like. This is further evidenced by Mithras’ rock-birth, the image of the lion-headed god, and the use of pine cones as emblems and in rituals.
Although the cult members believed themselves to be direct descendants of a Persian mystery tradition, they were probably mistaken. The true origin of some of the cult’s key elements may have been Northern European since the ethos of the cult has strong parallels within the ancient mythologies of Norse and Germanic tribes.
It is easy to see why the cult was so popular: it presented a cosmology that explained the workings of the Universe. It explained unusual and spectacular celestial phenomena; and it offered hope, through the intercession of a psychopompic god, of an afterlife within the Neo-platonic zeitgeist of its day.

FINIS.

which makes me think that the whole Mithra cult is in itself a leftover from the long barrow builder and user days and a mithraneum IS the long barrow/comet shelter and there is no dogma/no heretics because it is just a starmap that reminds you when the perseid meteor showers are due each year and when to take shelter

 

[dantem]

The interesting connection is between Akhenaten's Aten (solar disk) on the one hand and Sol Invictus ("Unconquered Sun") on the other. If the Pentateuch was written as late as the late second century BC, then this only preceded the beginnings of the Jesus myth by at most a couple of centuries (Josephus having lived 37-100 AD) during which Julius Caesar lived and died, but represents a much older tradition based on the history of Akhenaten and Nefertiti. Is that going in the right direction at all?

Wow! Interesting also is that the 'solar disk' was in fact a 'black conical meteorite', according to the cult brought by the teenager Emperor Elagabalus (Marcus Aurelius Antoninus Augustus, ca. 203 – 11 March 222), also known as Heliogabalus.

Elagabalus_deity

The cult statue was brought to Rome by the Emperor Marcus Aurelius Antoninus, who before his accession was the hereditary high priest at Emesa and is commonly called Elagabalus after the deity. The Syrian deity was assimilated with the Roman sun god known as Sol Invictus ("the Undefeated Sun").

A temple called the Elagabalium was built on the east face of the Palatine Hill, to house the holy stone of the Emesa temple, a black conical meteorite. Herodian writes of that stone:

This stone is worshipped as though it were sent from heaven; on it there are some small projecting pieces and markings that are pointed out, which the people would like to believe are a rough picture of the sun, because this is how they see them.[6]

 

[Eboard10]

Just to clarify, Gmirkin argues that the Pentateuch was written in the 3rd century BC, likely sometime between 273-272 BC by Jewish scholars in Alexandria.

 

[Laura]

Just to clarify, Gmirkin argues that the Pentateuch was written in the 3rd century BC, likely sometime between 273-272 BC by Jewish scholars in Alexandria.

Right, sorry. There are other scholars who argue for as late as the 2nd century.

Added:

"[T]he Egyptian papyri, which are abundant for this particular period, ... have in a measure reinstated Aristeas (about 200 B.C.) in the opinion of scholars. Upon his "Letter to Philocrates" the tradition as to the origin of the Septuagint rests. It is now believed that even though he may have been mistaken in some points, his facts in general are worthy of credence (Abrahams, in "Jew. Quart. Rev." xiv. 321). According to Aristeas, the Pentateuch was translated at the time of Philadelphus, the second Ptolemy (285-247 B.C.), which translation was encouraged by the king and welcomed by the Jews of Alexandria. Grätz ("Gesch. der Juden," 3d ed., iii. 615) stands alone in assigning it to the reign of Philometor (181-146 B.C.). Whatever share the king may have had in the work, it evidently satisfied a pressing need felt by the Jewish community, among whom a knowledge of Hebrew was rapidly waning before the demands of every-day life.""Bible Translations - The Septuagint". JewishEncyclopedia.com.

According to the Jewish Encyclopedia, Paul's "quotations from Scripture, which are all taken, directly or from memory, from the Greek version {Septuagint}, betray no familiarity with the original Hebrew text (..) Nor is there any indication in Paul's writings or arguments that he had received the rabbinical training ascribed to him by Christian writers (..)"

This could also suggest that there were very few "Hebrew writings" in existence until they were created in Greek first, in Alexandria, and then translated back into Hebrew.

 

[Eboard10]

Just to clarify, Gmirkin argues that the Pentateuch was written in the 3rd century BC, likely sometime between 273-272 BC by Jewish scholars in Alexandria.

Right, sorry. There are other scholars who argue for as late as the 2nd century.

Added:

"[T]he Egyptian papyri, which are abundant for this particular period, ... have in a measure reinstated Aristeas (about 200 B.C.) in the opinion of scholars. Upon his "Letter to Philocrates" the tradition as to the origin of the Septuagint rests. It is now believed that even though he may have been mistaken in some points, his facts in general are worthy of credence (Abrahams, in "Jew. Quart. Rev." xiv. 321). According to Aristeas, the Pentateuch was translated at the time of Philadelphus, the second Ptolemy (285-247 B.C.), which translation was encouraged by the king and welcomed by the Jews of Alexandria. Grätz ("Gesch. der Juden," 3d ed., iii. 615) stands alone in assigning it to the reign of Philometor (181-146 B.C.). Whatever share the king may have had in the work, it evidently satisfied a pressing need felt by the Jewish community, among whom a knowledge of Hebrew was rapidly waning before the demands of every-day life.""Bible Translations - The Septuagint". JewishEncyclopedia.com.

According to the Jewish Encyclopedia, Paul's "quotations from Scripture, which are all taken, directly or from memory, from the Greek version {Septuagint}, betray no familiarity with the original Hebrew text (..) Nor is there any indication in Paul's writings or arguments that he had received the rabbinical training ascribed to him by Christian writers (..)"

This could also suggest that there were very few "Hebrew writings" in existence until they were created in Greek first, in Alexandria, and then translated back into Hebrew.

Yes, I'm also of the opinion that the writings were probably written in Greek first and only later translated into Hebrew.

If I remember correctly, Gmirkin supposes that the Pharaoh (or was it the chief librarian from Alexandria?) asked for a group of Jewish scholars from Palestine to write what was to become the Pentateuch at the library in Alexandria. However, I wonder if that was truly the case.

I also found his take on the character of Moses quite fascinating, especially in relation to Alexander the Great.

 

[Laura]

Yes, I'm also of the opinion that the writings were probably written in Greek first and only later translated into Hebrew.

If I remember correctly, Gmirkin supposes that the Pharaoh (or was it the chief librarian from Alexandria?) asked for a group of Jewish scholars from Palestine to write what was to become the Pentateuch at the library in Alexandria. However, I wonder if that was truly the case.

I also found his take on the character of Moses quite fascinating, especially in relation to Alexander the Great.

Yup.

What is fascinating is the extent to which people will go trying to "interpret" the Bible, trying to make history out of it, the same way they have done with Jesus for the past 2K years.

The general conclusion by all the honest scholars is that Moses didn't exist in the way the Bible presents him if at all!

Well, I think the problem is the same as the Jesus problem: you have a religion that needs a founder, but no founder is to be found in the historical record, and on the other hand, you have Caesar, who was made a god, but then his "religion" disappeared entirely at the time Christianity arose. So you have a founder without a religion.

This is where the diegetic transposition comes in. I think that is what happened with the Moses situation.

 

[aragorn]

Darn, at least on Amazon there arent that many copies available, and they are very pricey.

Just an FYI, I just bought one on amazon uk that was quite a bit cheaper than amazon US. I think there still may be some copies there in the $50 range.

Hmmm... I got mine for 37 euros on amazon.fr but now it says they are out of stock.

I can submit mine to being scanned if the situation doesn't change shortly. Upwards of 300 bux is ridiculous.

Just ordered Jesus was Caesar on Amazon.uk for £25 which is very reasonable given the contents of the book.

Also, Weinstock's Divus Julius comes at £80 in the UK and €100 in France for those who can afford it which is a lot less than the $500 used copy available on the US site! Alternatively, one could look at other sites like abebooks.

Better grab these books before they disappear.

Thanks for the tip! I just placed an order at amazon.uk, 25£.

 

[WIN 52]

Just a quick note:

Once things seem to be understood in a true perspective of History versus a fairy tale, it seems like the C's were right. I no longer feel like I have landed on a foreign planet, when borne here in this time. Things seem to make more sense when thinking about how they are all tied together. During High School I could never shake the feeling that most of what I was being taught was a lie.

Using the model set up for us to believe in leaves a person kind of bewildered and seemingly without purpose, trying to make sense of what happened. I had always felt there were huge gaps between reality and popular beliefs of this time.

Now, the problem is that this type of false flag information is prominent in everything from soup to nuts. It affects diet to belief structure.

This must be a 3D STS control thing. I just can't understand how/why it works and how I fit in.

Thanks for helping sort these issues out and my support is steadfast.

 

[dant]

Darn, at least on Amazon there arent that many copies available, and they are very pricey.

Just an FYI, I just bought one on amazon uk that was quite a bit cheaper than amazon US. I think there still may be some copies there in the $50 range.

Hmmm... I got mine for 37 euros on amazon.fr but now it says they are out of stock.

I can submit mine to being scanned if the situation doesn't change shortly. Upwards of 300 bux is ridiculous.

Just ordered Jesus was Caesar on Amazon.uk for £25 which is very reasonable given the contents of the book.

Also, Weinstock's Divus Julius comes at £80 in the UK and €100 in France for those who can afford it which is a lot less than the $500 used copy available on the US site! Alternatively, one could look at other sites like abebooks.

Better grab these books before they disappear.

Thanks for the tip! I just placed an order at amazon.uk, 25£.

Thanks for the tip! I ordered from amazon.co.uk
and the cost is 24.95£, which is $50.51 US.