Was Julius Caesar the real Jesus Christ?

[aragorn]

Another attempt in discrediting Carrotta's book, an entry little over a year ago with some comments/discussion :

_http://antoninuspius.blogspot.fi/2012/01/jesus-christ-and-julius-caesar-same.html?m=1

This blog by 'Antoninus Pius' is rebutted with a sense of humor here:

_http://divusjulius.wordpress.com/2012/01/10/talkingdead/

 

[Approaching Infinity]

Another attempt in discrediting Carrotta's book, an entry little over a year ago with some comments/discussion :

_http://antoninuspius.blogspot.fi/2012/01/jesus-christ-and-julius-caesar-same.html?m=1

This blog by 'Antoninus Pius' is rebutted with a sense of humor here:

_http://divusjulius.wordpress.com/2012/01/10/talkingdead/

I've been reading the back and forth. For reference, here are the other posts and responses that followed the ones above, in order:

_http://antoninuspius.blogspot.ca/2012/01/carotta-code-cracked.html

_http://divusjulius.wordpress.com/2012/01/18/antoninusimpius/

_http://antoninuspius.blogspot.ca/2012/01/parrot-replies.html

_http://divusjulius.wordpress.com/2012/01/25/umpire/

_http://antoninuspius.blogspot.ca/2012/01/three-strikes-and-carotta-is-out.html

 

[Renaissance]

Darn, at least on Amazon there arent that many copies available, and they are very pricey.

Just an FYI, I just bought one on amazon uk that was quite a bit cheaper than amazon US. I think there still may be some copies there in the $50 range.

 

[Laura]

Carotta is equitable with his speculations mentioning several interpretative directions one could go with a number of stories/pericopes. So he is quite open about the uncertainties in some areas. But he cites such a pile of compelling evidence that the case is closed for me as to the identity of "Jesus", though we can discuss exactly how the transpositions were made.

One thing that occurs to me as I read this material is that I'm not sure that all of the changes were just textual, translation, mythifying, or similar errors that developed naturally over time. There does seem to me to be some deliberation to the process. At least SOME. As though someone was conscious that they were changing the story of Caesar into the story of a Jewish messiah. And they had a purpose for doing it.

I think this is where Atwill's work comes in. He has certainly noted some peculiarities that demonstrate a relationship between the writings of Josephus and the gospels. That's a whole can of worms.

 

[Laura]

Darn, at least on Amazon there arent that many copies available, and they are very pricey.

Just an FYI, I just bought one on amazon uk that was quite a bit cheaper than amazon US. I think there still may be some copies there in the $50 range.

Hmmm... I got mine for 37 euros on amazon.fr but now it says they are out of stock.

I can submit mine to being scanned if the situation doesn't change shortly. Upwards of 300 bux is ridiculous.

 

[Eboard10]

Darn, at least on Amazon there arent that many copies available, and they are very pricey.

Just an FYI, I just bought one on amazon uk that was quite a bit cheaper than amazon US. I think there still may be some copies there in the $50 range.

Hmmm... I got mine for 37 euros on amazon.fr but now it says they are out of stock.

I can submit mine to being scanned if the situation doesn't change shortly. Upwards of 300 bux is ridiculous.

Just ordered Jesus was Caesar on Amazon.uk for £25 which is very reasonable given the contents of the book.

Also, Weinstock's Divus Julius comes at £80 in the UK and €100 in France for those who can afford it which is a lot less than the $500 used copy available on the US site! Alternatively, one could look at other sites like abebooks.

Better grab these books before they disappear.

 

[shijing]

I think this is where Atwill's work comes in. He has certainly noted some peculiarities that demonstrate a relationship between the writings of Josephus and the gospels. That's a whole can of worms.

Flavio Barbiero has an interesting take on Josephus. He argues that once Josephus was captured by the Romans, he negotiated the handover of the Jewish temple treasure to Vespasian who needed the cash to fuel his political ambitions, essentially selling out the Jews and becoming generally hated by them as a traitor; he was then increasingly favored by Vespasian and his son Titus after having moved to Rome with several other members of the priestly family in order to fade into the background.

He also has some interesting ideas about the relationship between Josephus and Paul:

The arguments used by Josephus Flavius to justify his own betrayal and that of his brethren seem to echo the words of St. Paul, who is considered by universal consent as the one who created the ideological basis for the construction of the Roman church. The two seem to be perfectly in agreement with regard to their attitude toward the Roman world. Paul, for example, considered it his task to free the church of Jesus from the narrowness of Judaism and from the land of Judaea and to make it universal, linking it to Rome. They are also in agreement on other significant points: for example, both of them declare their belief in the doctrines of the Pharisees, which were those that were wholly received by the Roman church [...] There are sufficient historical indications to lead us to consider it possible, if not certain, that the two knew each other and were very close friends.

[...]

The correspondence of dates, facts, and people involved is so perfect that it is consequently difficult to avoid the conclusion that Josephus went to Rome to free Paul and his companions and that it was due to his intervention that the apostle was released. This presupposes that the relationship between the two was much closer that that of a simple occasional acquaintance [...] According to the Acts of the Apostles, Paul never lost the opportunity to "preach the kingdom of God and teach those things, which concern the Lord Jesus Christ" to anybody he met. Thus Josephus must have known much more about Christianity than he admits in his works, and his knowledge came directly from the teaching of Paul, of whom, in all likelihood, he was a disciple.

 

[Laura]

At the same time, we need to keep in mind that a whole lot of stuff may have been retroactively re-written to cover things up. There are obviously several layers to the gospels representing several redactions.

There may have been a "cult of caesar" among the Jews that morphed rather more quickly than others and inspired the Jewish rebellion. Josephus may have been given the task of "explaining" this away. I'm not inclined to go for the whole "Josephus knew Paul" conspiracy so much as the later re-writing which is simpler and more likely. And the re-writing could have been inspired mainly for political control reasons.

I think it is important to go through this slowly and carefully and pick up the actual clues and see where they lead instead of trying to force the facts to fit the theory.

 

[Eboard10]

Not sure this has been mentioned before but it would be a good idea to update the Recommended Book's list to include a Julius Caesar section IMO.

 

[Laura]

Not sure this has been mentioned before but it would be a good idea to update the Recommended Book's list to include a Julius Caesar section IMO.

Yes. This should especially be required reading for FOTCM members. It gives an all-new, and deeper, meaning to "Paleo-Christianity".

I've finished Carotta's book. The last part about how all of this transpired in history is brilliant. He notes in there, also, that Gary Courtney copy-edited the text.

We will be contacting him about getting copies available to people and perhaps having him on the radio show.

Amazing stuff.

 

[Approaching Infinity]

Not sure this has been mentioned before but it would be a good idea to update the Recommended Book's list to include a Julius Caesar section IMO.

Yes. This should especially be required reading for FOTCM members. It gives an all-new, and deeper, meaning to "Paleo-Christianity".

Here's a list of books mentioned so far. We should probably whittle it down to the essentials:

Histories (Ancient)
Caesar's Gallic War and Civil War
Plutarch's Parallel Lives (Penguin editions: Rome in Crisis and Fall of the Roman Republic)
Suetonius' Twelve Caesars
Appian's Civil War
Cassius Dio's Roman History (books 36-45, Loeb editions: Volumes III and IV)

Histories (Modern)
Gelzer's Caesar: Politician and Statesman (1960)
Meier's Caesar (1982)
Parenti's Assassination of Julius Caesar (2004)
Freeman's Julius Caesar (2008)
Goldsworthy's Caesar: Life of a Colossus (2008)

Jesus/Caesar
Weinstock's Divus Julius (1972)
Courtney's Et tu Judas! Then Fall Jesus (2004)
Carotta's Jesus Was Caesar (2004)
Atwill's Ceasar's Messiah (2005)

Related Works
Fustel de Coulanges's Ancient City
Becker's Escape From Evil

 

[Laura]

Here's a list of books mentioned so far. We should probably whittle it down to the essentials:

Whittled:

Histories (Ancient)
Caesar's Gallic War and Civil War
Appian's Civil War

Histories (Modern)
Gelzer's Caesar: Politician and Statesman (1960)
Parenti's Assassination of Julius Caesar (2004)
Freeman's Julius Caesar (2008)

Jesus/Caesar
Courtney's Et tu Judas! Then Fall Jesus (2004)
Carotta's Jesus Was Caesar (2004)

Related Works
Fustel de Coulanges's Ancient City
Becker's Escape From Evil

 

[Approaching Infinity]

Here's a list of books mentioned so far. We should probably whittle it down to the essentials:

Whittled:

Histories (Ancient)
Caesar's Gallic War and Civil War
Appian's Civil War

Histories (Modern)
Gelzer's Caesar: Politician and Statesman (1960)
Parenti's Assassination of Julius Caesar (2004)
Freeman's Julius Caesar (2008)

Jesus/Caesar
Courtney's Et tu Judas! Then Fall Jesus (2004)
Carotta's Jesus Was Caesar (2004)

Related Works
Fustel de Coulanges's Ancient City
Becker's Escape From Evil

The list has been updated.

 

[shijing]

At the same time, we need to keep in mind that a whole lot of stuff may have been retroactively re-written to cover things up. There are obviously several layers to the gospels representing several redactions.

[...] I think it is important to go through this slowly and carefully and pick up the actual clues and see where they lead instead of trying to force the facts to fit the theory.

In line with that, one question I have is how historically real Paul himself actually was. My present understanding is that the works traditionally attributed to him were actually written and redacted by multiple authors -- so Paul is either an amalgamation of an original person plus subsequent others, or there was never really an actual "Paul" in the first place. Is there any better evidence for Paul's historical existence than there is for Jesus's (I mean the "traditional" Jesus)?

 

[Approaching Infinity]

At the same time, we need to keep in mind that a whole lot of stuff may have been retroactively re-written to cover things up. There are obviously several layers to the gospels representing several redactions.

[...] I think it is important to go through this slowly and carefully and pick up the actual clues and see where they lead instead of trying to force the facts to fit the theory.

In line with that, one question I have is how historically real Paul himself actually was. My present understanding is that the works traditionally attributed to him were actually written and redacted by multiple authors -- so Paul is either an amalgamation of an original person plus subsequent others, or there was never really an actual "Paul" in the first place. Is there any better evidence for Paul's historical existence than there is for Jesus's (I mean the "traditional" Jesus)?

Scholars (even those who doubt Jesus' historicity) generally accept that Paul was a real historical figure. However, his 'authentic' letters have several 'interpolations' or editorial insertions by unknown scribes. Courtney has a chapter on Paul in his book, but you can also check out Mack's "Who Wrote the New Testament".