Was Julius Caesar the real Jesus Christ?

Welcome to the forum dia6olo.

Seeing as this is your first post on the forum, we would appreciate it if you would post a brief intro about yourself in the Newbies section, telling us how you found this forum, how long you've been reading it and/or the SOTT page, whether or not you've read any of Laura's books yet, etc.
 
I have a question about faith. As I feel it faith means to give onself into the care of the universe and simply accept everything that happens because the universe is infinitely wise and knowledgeable and knows what is best for everyone. When I feel faith I don't feel like fighting or arguing I feel like just doing the right thing without thinking at the consequences. I feel like just being myself and let others decide what to do for themselves. Because I can accept everything I dont't care what will happen.

What I do not understand in relation to Julius Caesar is why he was killed (I assume here that he was killed but I don't know) when he had this supreme faith. I mean why did the universe let it happen. Why he accepted to leave. Was he more useful somewhere else?
 
tohuwabohu said:
I have a question about faith. As I feel it faith means to give onself into the care of the universe and simply accept everything that happens because the universe is infinitely wise and knowledgeable and knows what is best for everyone.

Good enough for me. I like Dag Hammarskjold's definition of faith: the union of God and the soul. The way I interpret that is to fully align oneself with "God's will", with a higher thought center, with the ultimate telos or purpose of the cosmos. I think Cosmic Mind is infinitely wise and knows what's best, and that humans have some access (or the possibility of access) to those goals. But it is up to us to actualize them or not.

When I feel faith I don't feel like fighting or arguing I feel like just doing the right thing without thinking at the consequences. I feel like just being myself and let others decide what to do for themselves. Because I can accept everything I dont't care what will happen.

There's also the question of how clearly one can access the 'best possibilities' available. Are they really the best? Or are there blockages that are going unacknowledged? I.e., "clear my eyes that I may see, clear my ears that I may hear."

What I do not understand in relation to Julius Caesar is why he was killed (I assume here that he was killed but I don't know) when he had this supreme faith.

Yes, he was killed. He was assassinated by a conspiracy of senators.

I mean why did the universe let it happen. Why he accepted to leave. Was he more useful somewhere else?

To acknowledge that the universe (i.e. God? Cosmic Mind?) could intervene, you're suggesting that the universe as an individual is omnipotent, i.e., that it can override the laws of creation and the free will of its creatures. That just leads to the old problem of evil: theodicy. But I don't think that the universe is omnipotent. Free will is real, and 'power' is shared at all levels of creation. How does the universe 'act' in the world? Through us. We're the ones that actualize 'divine' possibilities. In other words, it's up to us to 'debug the universe'.

Perhaps Caesar was free to discern the best possibilities available for himself and the Republic and world at large, and to work towards actualizing them. Perhaps he even had something like "pure faith" in the cosmos. But at the same time, the senators who assassinated him were just as free to murder him. Caesar was probably just as aware that this was a possibility. A lot of assassinated heroes were very aware that their attempts to make the world a better place might be stifled by an assassin's knife (e.g., Hammarskjold, JFK, Arafat), but they fought on anyway.

"A man who won't die for something is not fit to live." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
Very well put, Approaching Infinity! I was trying to formulate a response, but I don't think I could have said so much in such a concise way. :)
 
Approaching Infinity said:
[...]

Good enough for me. I like Dag Hammarskjold's definition of faith: the union of God and the soul. The way I interpret that is to fully align oneself with "God's will", with a higher thought center, with the ultimate telos or purpose of the cosmos. I think Cosmic Mind is infinitely wise and knows what's best, and that humans have some access (or the possibility of access) to those goals. But it is up to us to actualize them or not.

tohuwabohu said:
When I feel faith I don't feel like fighting or arguing I feel like just doing the right thing without thinking at the consequences. I feel like just being myself and let others decide what to do for themselves. Because I can accept everything I dont't care what will happen.

There's also the question of how clearly one can access the 'best possibilities' available. Are they really the best? Or are there blockages that are going unacknowledged? I.e., "clear my eyes that I may see, clear my ears that I may hear."

[...]

tohuwabohu said:
I mean why did the universe let it happen. Why he accepted to leave. Was he more useful somewhere else?

To acknowledge that the universe (i.e. God? Cosmic Mind?) could intervene, you're suggesting that the universe as an individual is omnipotent, i.e., that it can override the laws of creation and the free will of its creatures. That just leads to the old problem of evil: theodicy. But I don't think that the universe is omnipotent. Free will is real, and 'power' is shared at all levels of creation. How does the universe 'act' in the world? Through us. We're the ones that actualize 'divine' possibilities. In other words, it's up to us to 'debug the universe'.

Perhaps Caesar was free to discern the best possibilities available for himself and the Republic and world at large, and to work towards actualizing them. Perhaps he even had something like "pure faith" in the cosmos. But at the same time, the senators who assassinated him were just as free to murder him. Caesar was probably just as aware that this was a possibility. A lot of assassinated heroes were very aware that their attempts to make the world a better place might be stifled by an assassin's knife (e.g., Hammarskjold, JFK, Arafat), but they fought on anyway.

"A man who won't die for something is not fit to live." - Martin Luther King, Jr.


AI, your replies are wonderful :) (took the opportunity of bolding/italicising for key emphasis/chronicling) - deep appreciation, gratitude!!!

tohuwabohu, thank you for your questions! :) I needed this today, both of you :thup:...Thanks Again, L
 
Thank you guys for your comments, AI your post was very enlightening. I think I made a mistake in my assumptions because I viewed Caesar like someone who is perfectly aligned with the universe and the will of the universe is manifesting through him on this plane. But of course this might not be the case perhaps Caesar had flaws and weaknesses and perhaps his enemies exploited these against him and killed him.
And sure his enemies might have advisors in the ranks of 4D STS so they could be very clever.

The other mistake I did is I shifted responsibility for human deeds to the universe and that is not correct either. But I think that if one makes everything right and he/she can't do any more then and only then can be said 'I made everything that is in my powers and now my fate is in the hands of the universe'.
 
Michael Parenti mentions that perhaps the reason Caesar didn't walk into the Senate with a guard
is because he didn't want to appear as if he was afraid of them. But all we can do now, concerning his motives
is to speculate and nothing more. Besides, I do not really know what you mean with being alligned with the universe
but I doubt it makes only positive things happen to you.
 
Anthony said:
Besides, I do not really know what you mean with being alligned with the universe
but I doubt it makes only positive things happen to you.

I was refering to what Approaching Infinity wrote about faith
I like Dag Hammarskjold's definition of faith: the union of God and the soul. The way I interpret that is to fully align oneself with "God's will", with a higher thought center, with the ultimate telos or purpose of the cosmos.

I was thinking that if Caesar would be perfect manifestation of the universe then there would not be any mistakes on his side and then it would really be the will of the universe that he was murdered. Nonetheless if I review what you said then going to Senate without guards was very stupid. The same can be said about Kennedy parading himself in the open when he knew they will try to murder him. It seems to me that many good people die because they believe that if the universe wishes for them to live then they will live no matter what and if it wishes for them to die then they will die no matter what and perhaps JFK assumed that his enemies will not strike in front of cameras and in front of all those people and that costed him his life.

What is positive and what is negative is hard to say. It remainds me of Joan of Ark when she was hit by an arrow. Perhaps in that moment it could be perceived as being negative, nonetheless in the end she didn't kill anyone because those who were by her side fought for her and defended her. She was pure till the end. for me the positive is what is STO and negative is what is STS. Nonetheless if I view in what world we are living in then the only positive is more lessons for some people which need the lessons badly. For all people this environment is good for making final decision whether they will serve self or others. If I can speak for myself then for me the bad is if someone who is STS cons me into doing what is not STO.

So the question about Caesar can be formulated like this: "was his death as a result a consequence of him acting in STO way or in STS way". I mean only in that particular moment. Well I think it was STS because they ultimately won the battle but I am not sure because as I said negative can be manifested in the end as positive.
 
tohuwabohu said:
So the question about Caesar can be formulated like this: "was his death as a result a consequence of him acting in STO way or in STS way". I mean only in that particular moment. Well I think it was STS because they ultimately won the battle but I am not sure because as I said negative can be manifested in the end as positive.
C's mentioned (in the context of wanderer concept) that STO's don't bother about themselves, only comes to give information when asked. Given that 4D STS is tweaking us over and over, this reality is like sandbox for them. So defining Caesar's death as STO or STS is difficult. One thing we know that he tried to do good irrespective of the dangers to the life. That matters.
 
Our working hypothesis here is that we are all STS. We cannot "be a perfect manifestation of the universe" as you put it in the way I think you mean. If we could be on that level of perfection, what would be the point of incarnating in human form?

But that said, the Universe, which we are part of, IS perfect as it is. So, the way to really try to understand life on this planet in the deepest way is what the C's say: All there is is lessons. And as was mentioned before, free will allowed Caesar's murderers to do what they did. STO does not and cannot interfere with their free will and still remain STO, at least that's what it seems like from the data we have from many different sources.

In addition to the C's, Gurdjieff said in "In Search of the Miraculous" that the "negative forces," i.e. STS can utilize any methods they please, while the "positive forces," those that guide the process of conscious evolution, are limited as to what means and methods they use.
 
Laura said:
The general conclusion by all the honest scholars is that Moses didn't exist in the way the Bible presents him if at all!.

This reminds me of something that Nakazono wrote in "The source of modern civilization", p.153 (_http://www.kototamabooks.com/). What he said in this book is very doubtful because the source (the "Taekuchi documents") is unverifiable. It sounds like science fiction. Anyway, here is an excerpt :

Moze-Lomyo-Las (Romulus)

The 69th Sumela Mikoto of Fuki Aizu Tyo was Kamu Taru Toyo Suki Kantaru Wake Toyo Suki Sumela Mikoto. In the 200th year of his reign, on March 6th, Moze-Lomyo-Las, political king of the five races, arrived in Hinomoto Kuni from the Sinai mountain in the land of Alabia Akaba. He came to pray in the Koso Kotai Jingu for the ancestors of the five races.”

The Koso Kotai Jingu is divided into an inner and an outer shrine. In the outer, one prays for the ancestors of Yomotsu Kuni (foreign lands); in the inner, for the ancestors of Hinomoto Kuni.

While he was there, Moses made the stones of the Ten Commandments. There were three different Jikai, or sets of commandments: Omote Jikai, the front; Ura Jikai, the
back; and Shin Jikai, the true commandments
.”

These would be the commandments belonging to the Kanagi, Sugaso, and Futonolito principles. Moses’ mission was to spread the Omote, or outermost principle.

He engraved them on veined agate and other semiprecious stones (there were five pieces) and presented them to Sumela Mikoto”.

Moze married Omuro Hime Mikoto, a granddaughter of the 63rd Sumela Mikoto of Fuki Aizu Tyo. He then remained for twelve years in Hinomoto Kuni, and returned to Sinai mountain.”

The dates given mean Moses came to Hinomoto Kuni 694 years before Jinmu decreed the change of era, or 3,344 years ago. The stones engraved by Moses are still kept in the Koso Kotai Jingu.

Omuro Hime later changed her name to Roma Hime Mikoto. Moses went to Italy with his family to create the Roman branch. He remained there until it was well organized, then left it in the care of his son Romulus. When the Takeuchi documents record the arrival of “Moze-Lomyo-Las”, they may be referring to more than one person. Lomyo-Las could either be a part of Moses’ name, or the name of a son who had come with him.

Moze left Lomyo-Las and Numyo-Bon-Hilyus in Rome and returned to Hinomoto Kuni with Roma Hime on June 25th of the year 421 of the same reign: in the time of the 69th Sumela Mikoto of Fuki Aizu Tyo. He died on November 25th of that same year, at Hotatsu Mountain in the region of Notono.”

The above excerpts are quoted from the book of Colonel Ikutaro Yano. Colonel Yano, a naval officer, was a serious student of the ancient documents.

When the Second World War broke out, he was put in prison for speaking out against the war and the entire policy of the government. He died in his cell, from poison.

In prison, he wrote a series of essays which were smuggled out by friends — as a colonel, his influence probably gave him some latitude of action. These papers were handed on to his wife, who was expressly forbidden to open them until the end of the war.

The official report said that he had died of disease. When his wife came to claim his body, it showed clear evidence of poisoning.

After the war, Mrs. Yano published her husband’s essays.

Colonel Yano had studied the Takeuchi documents before the war, and apparently made copies of some of them. I mentioned earlier that a great many documents were destroyed at the end of the war, burned in Tokyo by incendiary bombs. The documents

Colonel Yano refers to no longer exist, but what he says is confirmed by the notes of Ogasawara Sensei, my late teacher. Before the war, Ogasawara Sensei worked for Colonel Yano for a short time as his secretary.
 
SeekinTruth said:
Our working hypothesis here is that we are all STS. We cannot "be a perfect manifestation of the universe" as you put it in the way I think you mean. If we could be on that level of perfection, what would be the point of incarnating in human form?

But that said, the Universe, which we are part of, IS perfect as it is. So, the way to really try to understand life on this planet in the deepest way is what the C's say: All there is is lessons. And as was mentioned before, free will allowed Caesar's murderers to do what they did. STO does not and cannot interfere with their free will and still remain STO, at least that's what it seems like from the data we have from many different sources.

In addition to the C's, Gurdjieff said in "In Search of the Miraculous" that the "negative forces," i.e. STS can utilize any methods they please, while the "positive forces," those that guide the process of conscious evolution, are limited as to what means and methods they use.

Thank you SeekinTruth this makes perfect sense. I was just wondering how many opportunities the people of this world had to make the future brighter if they just stood up for Caesar or Tesla or JFK and I am sure many others. It is just mind boggling how the negative forces thwart every effort to make this world a better place. I think for STS this world is not only a sandbox it is more than that. It is a feast for them just like decomposing body is feast for all those worms and parasites.
 
tohuwabohu said:
SeekinTruth said:
Our working hypothesis here is that we are all STS. We cannot "be a perfect manifestation of the universe" as you put it in the way I think you mean. If we could be on that level of perfection, what would be the point of incarnating in human form?

But that said, the Universe, which we are part of, IS perfect as it is. So, the way to really try to understand life on this planet in the deepest way is what the C's say: All there is is lessons. And as was mentioned before, free will allowed Caesar's murderers to do what they did. STO does not and cannot interfere with their free will and still remain STO, at least that's what it seems like from the data we have from many different sources.

In addition to the C's, Gurdjieff said in "In Search of the Miraculous" that the "negative forces," i.e. STS can utilize any methods they please, while the "positive forces," those that guide the process of conscious evolution, are limited as to what means and methods they use.

Thank you SeekinTruth this makes perfect sense. I was just wondering how many opportunities the people of this world had to make the future brighter if they just stood up for Caesar or Tesla or JFK and I am sure many others. It is just mind boggling how the negative forces thwart every effort to make this world a better place. I think for STS this world is not only a sandbox it is more than that. It is a feast for them just like decomposing body is feast for all those worms and parasites.

Yes, those types of people put everything on the line for humanity at large and paid the price. Because if they were able to accomplish everything they set out to, and set an example of the kind of life we COULD have, the world would definitely NOT be as it is right now. And that would NOT be good for STS.
 
Some of the killers of Caesar were out of irony alive, and their positions heightened out of Caesar's legendary clemency from a just previous civil war.Caesar according to writings had omens of his death, and even by a dream by his wife.In the last minutes he was talked into going to the senate meeting by one of the conspirators.The conspirators accused him of trying to be king, because some his actions harken to the
days of dynastic Rome before it became a republic for instance wearing red shoes like the kings of old.Caesar was just days away from leaving Rome to fight in a war, and the night before remarked "The best death is a sudden one."


Julius Caesar 100 BCE- 44 BCE

Assassinated dictator of Rome.Later deified as a God thru the Great Comet of 44 BCE which laid ground work for the Imperial Cult (first historical Roman to be officially deified.)

Caesar claimed lineage to his celestial mother the Goddess of love Venus (aka Morning Star.)

Caesar practiced—and widely publicized—his policy of clemency (he would put no one to death and confiscate no property).Caesar proposed a law for the redistribution of public lands to the poor,In his will he also left a substantial gift to the citizens of Rome.

The Senate named Caesar dictator perpetuo ("dictator in perpetuity"). Roman mints produced a denarius coin with this title and his profile on one side, and with an image of the goddess Ceres and Caesar's title of Augur Pontifex Maximus on the reverse. While minting the title of dictator was not controversial, Caesar's image was, as it was unusual to feature living consuls and other public officials on coins during the Republic.

Suetonius also gives the story that a crowd shouted to him rex ("king"), to which Caesar replied, "I am Caesar, not Rex".


The poet Virgil wrote in the Georgics (26 BCE) that several unusual events took place following Caesar's assassination.

He,no other was moved to pity Rome on the day that Caesar died,when he veiled his radiance in gloom,darkness,and a Godless age feared everlasting night.

He goes on to write:

The Alps rocked with Earthquakes.
Mount Etna hurled balls of fire.
Animals uttered speech,and showed signs that heralded disaster.
Booming voices heard in the falling darkness,and the Earth gaped open while rivers stood still etc.



Besides his own writings "Commentaries Gallic Wars", other examples of historicity for Julius Caesar includes.

~ Sallust (86-34BC);
~ Suetonius (c75-120AD)1
~ Plutarch (46-127AD).
~ Appian (c95-165AD)
~ Cicero
~ Dio Cassius
~ Livy
~ Lucan
~ Valerius Maximus
~ Vitruvius
~ Catullus

Plus:
~ inscriptions
~monuments
~statues
~coins



Augustus (Octavius) Caesar 63 BCE- 14 CE

Grand nephew, and adopted son of Julius Caesar in which he inherited his title.Rome's first Emperor, and ushered in the Pax Romana which was peace across the Empire.As Pontifex Maximus (Pope) he enacted the Imperial Cult, and the Cult of Comet for the worship of Caesar.

Philo of Alexandria 20 BCE- 50 CE

Hellenistic Jewish philosopher born into Roman citizenship thanks beforehand to Julius Caesar.He combined Jewish philosophy with Greek philosophy, and it's believed to have influenced later Christology.He was a part of an embassy to Rome in 40 CE to prevent Emperor Caligula erecting statues in synagogues, end turmoil between Alexandrian Jewish and Greek communities.Philo sourced Jewish scripture from the Septuagint (Greek translation of the Old Testament), and used concept of "Logos".Logos is a celestial high priest that is a shadow of God which is the expiator of sins, mediator, and advocate for men.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philo's_view_of_God#The_Logos (see Logos)

Jesus 6 BCE- 33 CE?

Revelation 22:16 I, Jesus , have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.

Son of God, and saviour.There is no contemporary mention of Jesus by anyone, but historians know that "argument from silence" is a fallacy , and does not negate historicity.Most scholars agree that Jesus existed, but keep in mind taboos associated with talking about religion.In reality the Gospels, and the Pauline Epistles are the only evidence for Jesus.

In 1909 John Remsburg published The Christ, and he lists 42 silent writers at around the time of Jesus.

http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/rmsbrg02.htm

Additional cited references;

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Evidence_for_the_historical_existence_of_Jesus_Christ

http://www.nobeliefs.com/exist.htm

Apostle Paul aka Saul of Tarsus circa 5 BCE?- circa 67 CE? The letters of Paul that are considered non-psuedogrphical talks of a Jesus that is more like Philo's Logos than a historical person.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Paul_of_Tarsus

The Pauline Epistles date from 51-58 CE, and Paul does not claim to have met Jesus, but a post resurrection revelation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pauline_epistles

The four Canonical Gospels are named Mark, Matthew etc out of church tradition, because the authors are unknown.As evidenced by many scholars they are sourced from the Septuagint for Old Testament references, and contain many contradictions to each other.

Mark 65-70 CE
Matthew 75-80 CE
Luke 75-90 CE
John 85-100? CE

John 1:35-1:42 says Jesus's first disciples,are also disciples of John the Baptist,which are Andrew,and brother Simon Peter along the Jordan river.Matthew 4:18 says his first disciples are fishing in the Sea of Galilee.

Did he go to Egypt after his birth? (Matt 2:12-15)
Or did his parents take him straight back to Nazareth? (Luke 2:39)

At his trial before Pilate, did Jesus remain silent? (Matt 27:14)
Or did he answer all questions put to him? (John 18:33-37)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septuagint

http://www.amazon.com/Gospel-Fictions-Randel-Helms/dp/0879755725

Divi Filius Son of God (Octavius) Augustus Caesar.

Son of God

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTUYGR5E4p8

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divi_filius
 

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Some ignorant nutzoid posted a comment on my review of Carotta's book on amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/cd/m/FxMKVOK5JS3DYG/-/Tx27FV79MJJVLHO/1/Mx6CWQUCUUNXX1

G. Stucco says:

Laura, I applaud your enthusiasm. The liberator has come! The New Galielo! Laura, seriously, how much critical sense do you actually have? Do you get the same enthusiasm when you read the "revelations" of tabloids at the supermarket's stands? Do you even for a nano second, entertain the POSSIBILITY this book is sheer b/s? No? Pity.....
 
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