Was Julius Caesar the real Jesus Christ?

[Don Genaro]

So who was Jesus of Gamala? Well, Josephus Flavius says he was the rebel leader of the Fourth Sect of Judaism, who started and prosecuted the Jewish Revolt in the late AD 60s (note the late date again). However, just to confuse matters, Josephus also claims that it was a King Izas of Adiabene who started and prosecuted the Jewish Revolt in the late AD 60s. {Josephus isn't reliable either.}

That quote reminded me of the C's comment in last September's session:

Q: (Belibaste)Caesar's comet! (L) I think they're being funny. You have to understand when people are asking questions, they're asking with assumptions, just like you are right now. (Perceval)Let's be explicit: Was there a separate individual 2000 years ago that taught spiritual truths to people that were close to Gnostic teachings, etc. around the Roman Empire/Middle Eastern area that was NOT Caesar, that was in some small way incorporated into Caesar's life?

A: Very small way, and not a teacher as you describe, but a rebel fighter against Rome.

 

[Meager1]

I found another older one to read online, this one is particularly interesting since it is an older book yet makes a strong connection between Caesar and the early Church.

It does however bring up so many more questions, for instance it is becoming clearer all the time that Caesar was the actual personification used for the Jesus myth, but as for the church itself, might there be any connection between the disappearance of the Druids, who were basically in charge of "religion" at the time, and the appearance of the Popes, taking charge of this new church, and assuming most of the power once held by the Druids?
Was this whole deal a kind of transfiguration of one established religion into another, using what was at hand.. as what happened with Caesar/Jesus?


Author: Gundolf, Friedrich, 1880-1931; Hartmann, Jacob Wittmer, 1881-
Subject: Caesar, Julius
Publisher: London : G. Richards and H. Toulmin at the Cayme Press, ltd.
Possible copyright status: NOT_IN_COPYRIGHT
Language: English

https://archive.org/details/mantleofcaesar00gundiala

 

[Laura]

I found another older one to read online, this one is particularly interesting since it is an older book yet makes a strong connection between Caesar and the early Church.

It does however bring up so many more questions, for instance it is becoming clearer all the time that Caesar was the actual personification used for the Jesus myth, but as for the church itself, might there be any connection between the disappearance of the Druids, who were basically in charge of "religion" at the time, and the appearance of the Popes, taking charge of this new church, and assuming most of the power once held by the Druids?
Was this whole deal a kind of transfiguration of one established religion into another, using what was at hand.. as what happened with Caesar/Jesus?

Well, when you get into ancient Roman religion, you realize that it was a peculiar blend of old Indo-European with certain Orientalizing influences. That's why I keep seeing a connection to the collapse of the Assyrian empire and the emergence of "Romanness". I'm still tugging on that.

BUT, having said that, it seems that the senate was a group of "heads of families" who were priests in the beginning along the line of the Hebrew "war priest" schtick. That is what made them "Patrician". Their main function in the beginning was actually religious. It was like a confederation of tribes, each one with its war-priest-king, again, rather similar to the Hebrew "12 tribes". Only in the case of the Hebrews, it was one of the tribes that was holy and produced priests, while among the Romans, it was the head of each tribe that was a priest. Their whole system was built up around "sharing the power" but not letting any one of them get too much, and taking turns and all that. And of course, this was the Roman concept of "democracy". An oligarchy taking turns at supreme power, but beholden in some respects to the other members of the oligarchy.

So, during the transition from Republic to Principate/Empire, many of the old Patrician families were annihilated, though a few remained. Over time, they disappeared as well - just bred out, it seems. BUT, the senate itself, as an institution, continued in a certain way and this is what became, later, the model for the Church. And, in fact, many of the later senatorial families (though they were parvenu in Republican terms) BECAME prelates of the church. And the old title of the chief priest of the colleges of priesthoods, the Pontifex Maximus, became the title of the pope.

As to whether or how any druids might play in this... well, it seems that the church was pretty clever. It took over pagan sites and pagan saints at will. If there was a pagan holy place, a church was built there. If there was a story about a pagan martyr to Rome's power madness, the story was taken over and "Christianized" and a whole slew of hagiographies were written. The writers would take a nasty character, like a bishop of somewhere or other, and write his "life story", imposing the story of the pagan martyr onto someone who never did or thought of the things ascribed to him.

And so, lie piled on lie is what built Christianity.

 

[Laura]

I should add that, what I think, in relation to Gaul, is that a very different type of Christianity grew there that was directly related to Caesar - AND HIS DESCENDANTS there. I suspect there were a few. However, when the collapse came, and most of the Western Empire was destroyed by comets and plague, much of this was lost, except in pockets. And then, the German Reich arose because they survived the plague better due to their diet of mostly meat, and they hooked up with the remains of the Empire in Constantinople and decided to "resurrect Rome" and crown themselves emperors. A deal was struck with some church prelates, monasteries, whatever, to gain their support because, by now, they had pretty good control over the people. So this new Frankish Christianity was created and they re-wrote a lot of history, and created some history out of whole cloth, to substantiate their claims, genealogies, and a whole lot of other nonsense. It was, as you can guess, a total psychopathic take-over.

It is the "pockets of survival" of the knowledge of Caesar/Christ and his offspring in Gaul that was then transformed by the Church as some of what we now know as "Holy Grail/Bloodline" stories. These were grafted onto the Franks as in the "Merovingians" which is pretty much a crock of baloney.

 

[un chien anadolu]

If I'm not mistaken it's not mentioned, but if the results and evidences emerged by this research would be, globally more widely accepted and popular, it would be shocking, to say the least, for the Islam world too. In a sense even more disturbing for them because Muslims believe that Quran is untouched and original words of God, it's not even questionable for Muslims. And there are 20-30 verses about Jesus in Quran. In short :

- Jesus (Isa) is also considered a Messenger of God, like Muhammad
- Quran states that Jesus was born to Mary (Maryam) as the result of virginal conception too
- According to the Quran, Jesus, although appearing to have been crucified, was not killed by crucifixion or by any other means, instead, "God raised him unto Himself"

(more here -http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_in_Islam)

Also, In Quran there's a verse about Jesus, a miracle, which i believe has no common references in Christianity (only in Gospel of Thomas maybe), and which states that Jesus made a bird of clay, he breath into it and it became a living bird.

A translation of this original verse is : "I bring you a sign from your Lord. From clay I will make for you the likeness of a bird. I shall breath into it and, by God's leave, it shall become a living bird."

Now i don't want to speculate too much, but fwiw, i wonder if this bird symbolically has any connection to Aquila, the Roman eagle symbol, i.e if giving life to an inanimate bird could possibly symbolize the Caesar's role in the rise of Roman Empire.

 

[Laura]

Well, the Koran is based partly on Judaism's "Old Testament" and partly on Christianity's "New Testament". As I wrote about the probable date of the composition of the OT in HoM, I think it is safe to say that both of them were composed more or less together - very closely - in a narrow time-frame. And the same processes were at work including some deliberate fraud. So, since the Koran is based on two serious frauds and twisted mis-representations of reality, what does that make it?

As the the religion behind Judaism and Islam, I think there is pretty good evidence that I presented in HoM that both were originally one and the same, and it was worship of Saturn, a giant comet.

 

[Marlowe]

What texts does Ellis use for his evidence? (I don't have time for radio shows, I read much faster). How does he prove this king of Edessa was a descendant of Julius Caesar?

According to Ralph Ellis the New Testament characters Paul [Saul] ,Pilot etc. don't show up in the 30s AD....

They are in the historical record during the 60s & 70s AD...

I have read 7 of Ellis's books...He is not an amateur ....just saying... :)

And Jesus of Gamala WAS King Jesus of Edessa....Note : the information is in the book....I don't know if the info is on the internet.....Ellis has a web site but I don't know what it is...

 

[Niall]

Is that the same Ralph Ellis as this one?

http://www.sott.net/article/204059-Case-Study-on-COINTELPRO-and-Ponerization-Report-from-an-Alternative-Convention

 

[Palinurus]

Ellis has a web site but I don't know what it is...

Hi Marlowe,

Just Googling Ralph Ellis will show you where and what. All eleven books are mentioned.

It appears he wrote another trilogy about Jesus from an Egyptian perspective/background: Jesus, Last of the Pharaohs, Tempest & Exodus and Solomon, Falcon of Sheba.

Being Dutch, I was most flabbergasted to find another of his works entitled: Mary Magdalene, Princess of Provence and the House of Orange

Did Mary Magdalene travel to Provence, in France? Ralph Ellis follows the trail of mythology and reveals circumstantial evidence to suggest that she did, and that her presence there has left its mark on the region. Ralph also suggests that the legacy of Mary Magdalene was bequeathed to the town of Orange, the town that was central to the Royal Dutch House of Orange, and thus central to the entire Reformation and Enlightenment movement of the 17th century.

The book goes on to explore the Orange Enlightenment and the Age of Reason, the twin religious reforms that created the modern technical world that we live in today. But these freedoms are now threatened by forces of darkness that seek to extinguish all the gains of the Enlightenment. Ralph gives us his personal opinion about the perils that the world faces today, perils that all supporters of reason, freedom, technology and secularism need to face up to.

[bold is mine].

What I'm inclined to think about this can be summed up in one word: confabulations. But that's just me... ;)

@Kniall: Yup, that's him alright.

 

[John G]

So who was Jesus of Gamala? Well, Josephus Flavius says he was the rebel leader of the Fourth Sect of Judaism, who started and prosecuted the Jewish Revolt in the late AD 60s (note the late date again). However, just to confuse matters, Josephus also claims that it was a King Izas of Adiabene who started and prosecuted the Jewish Revolt in the late AD 60s. {Josephus isn't reliable either.}

That quote reminded me of the C's comment in last September's session:

Q: (Belibaste)Caesar's comet! (L) I think they're being funny. You have to understand when people are asking questions, they're asking with assumptions, just like you are right now. (Perceval)Let's be explicit: Was there a separate individual 2000 years ago that taught spiritual truths to people that were close to Gnostic teachings, etc. around the Roman Empire/Middle Eastern area that was NOT Caesar, that was in some small way incorporated into Caesar's life?

A: Very small way, and not a teacher as you describe, but a rebel fighter against Rome.

That's the Jesus who I thought was most likely the one being referred to though Josephus refers to lots of Jesuses and as the Cs said, this is a very small part of "Jesus". The best case for Jesus, son of Gamalas, I found would be here:

_http://carrington-arts.com/cliff/JOEGOS4.htm

When the Biblical Jesus ‘cleansed’ the temple of merchants he quoted the following from Jeremiah 7:11: Jeremiah was railing against foreign worship being introduced into the temple:

Do you take this temple that bears my name for a robber’s [lhsthz] den?


Was one of Josephus’ Jesuses thinking of the same quote when he saw that the Zealots had taken over the sanctuary?

War, 4.4.3, p. 531

Accordingly, Jesus, the eldest of the high priests next to Ananus, stood upon the tower that was against them, and said thus;... They are robbers [lhstai], who by their prodigious wickedness have profaned this most sacred floor, and who are to be now seen drinking themselves drunk in the sanctuary.


The Synoptics have another Jesus using the same quotation, in the temple:

Matt. 21:10-17, Mark 11:11, Luke 19:45-46

It is written, my house shall be called a house of prayer, but you make it a den of robbers [lhstwn].


All, from Jeremiah, through Josephus, to the Synoptics, use the Greek word lhstai for ‘robbers’ which applies particularly to ‘insurrectionists’ rather than thieves of the common sort.

The Jesus of Josephus’ account is a friend of Josephus. When he was in trouble with his command in Galilee it was Jesus who informed Josephus of his impending problem.

My information reached me in a letter from my father, to whom the news was confided by Jesus, son of Gamalas, an intimate friend of mine, who had been present at the conference. [ Life, 41.]


The death of Jesus grieved Josephus more than any other, excepting that of his father and mother who died in prison during the siege. He was the one who, with Ananus, was murdered by the Zealots at the beginning of the war.

Jesus was also joined with him [Ananus]; and although he was inferior to him upon comparison, he was superior to the rest; and I cannot but think that it was because God had doomed this city to destruction, as a polluted city. [ War, 4. 5. 2. p. 534]


Throughout his account of the war Josephus labels the Zealots and other nationalists lhstai, brigands or robbers. It was this element that brought the destruction upon the country, through their rebellious actions. That the gospels use the same term is more than a coincidence. They are following Josephus’ quotation from Jeremiah. Jesus is cursing at merchants, why should he call them insurrectionsts?

 

[Windmill knight]

Is that the same Ralph Ellis as this one?

http://www.sott.net/article/204059-Case-Study-on-COINTELPRO-and-Ponerization-Report-from-an-Alternative-Convention

I'm pretty sure he is. That same article came to mind when I saw him mentioned on this thread.

 

[Mountain Crown]

Is that the same Ralph Ellis as this one?

http://www.sott.net/article/204059-Case-Study-on-COINTELPRO-and-Ponerization-Report-from-an-Alternative-Convention

Yep, that's him. Thanks for the link Kniall.

 

[Marlowe]

Is that the same Ralph Ellis as this one?

http://www.sott.net/article/204059-Case-Study-on-COINTELPRO-and-Ponerization-Report-from-an-Alternative-Convention

@Kniall...with all do respect I'm not about to believe this letter writer who says he OVERHEARD a person he SAYS is Ralph Ellis in a café talking to a small group of people AT ANOTHER TABLE...

I'm willing to believe I could be wrong & Ellis is a pro Zionist....But even if it is true {which at this point I doubt] It still doesn't dismiss Ellis's research & books...

IMHO this story was invented to make a round about attack on Ellis's books....

FWIW..I read A LOT of books and articles about biblical stuff and the identity of Jesus & nothing rang true for me until I read Ellis's 3 books on Jesus,,,

 

[Laura]

Well, you are dead wrong, Marlowe. The report was verified by a personally known witness whose honesty is beyond question.

I find Ellis' work to be substandard and I've been digging through this for over 40 years.

Also, since this topic is about CAESAR, let's stay on topic.

 

[Zadius Sky]

Hi Marlowe, I see that you recently joined, so I want to welcome you to the Forum.

We suggest that new forum members introduce themselves in the Newbies section. Nothing personal, just a little bit about yourself and how you found the forum. If you are unsure of what to write, take a look at how others on the board have done it. :)