Was Julius Caesar the real Jesus Christ?

Mal7

Dagobah Resident
I remember from my childhood 25-30 years ago coming across the proposition that there is more historical evidence that Julius Caesar existed than that Jesus Christ existed. That question still seems to be a cultural meme on the internet. I think Julius Caesar was chosen in the example as he was a contemporaneous figure about whom historical evidence exists, but if JC1 and JC2 were the same person, that puts the question in a new light.

[Maybe in 4000 AD, cultural historians will dig up some old movie memorabilia and study our worship of the superhero Batman, while others will suggest that there is more evidence that Bruce Wayne existed than Batman. :)]
 

stellar

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Pashalis said:
Found this video documentary about Francesco Carotta and his idea about Jesus being Caesar:

The Gospel of Caesar:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwfY069iPVI

Documentary film about a linguist and a Catholic priest, who search for and find the origins of Christianity and the real historical Jesus: Julius Caesar.
Watching now...
Fascinating! Seems quite plausible to me.
I guess I've now a new reading list to add to the existing ones. :O
 

Alana

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stellar said:
Pashalis said:
Found this video documentary about Francesco Carotta and his idea about Jesus being Caesar:

The Gospel of Caesar:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwfY069iPVI

Documentary film about a linguist and a Catholic priest, who search for and find the origins of Christianity and the real historical Jesus: Julius Caesar.
Watching now...
Fascinating! Seems quite plausible to me.
Indeed, it's fascinating!

From the moment I read the beginning of this thread this morning, I was thinking about it constantly and I went to work and picked up the book of Caesar's about the war in Gaul. Managed to read the first two chapters of it, between the work responsibilities: so far all about war and strategy, which usually doesn't interest me, but this is a very interesting reading. From what I read, his own words, he sounds like a man who (though of course he led battles, and seems he was good at strategy and all that, he made slaves from the enemies who were defeated, etc, usual war stuff) tried to do his best to protect his people and be fair/just in his dealings, despite the times and his power as a person. It sounds also that he had awareness of pathological personalities and how to respond to them.

I then watched the documentary, which explains so many things: the symbol of the cross in Christianity, the pieta, the throwing of the cross in the sea, the development of a cult around a person who historically never existed... It makes so much sense! Fascinating is an understatement! Now I am eager to learn more about Caesar and his deeds. I wondered also whether there are and what, any parallels between his words and the gospel of Q.

Interesting, though I never knew much about Julius Caesar's life, I always felt for him, his betrayal that caused him his life must be one of the heaviest in history. A very sad moment in history, followed by similar sad moments as the assassinations of JFK, RFK, MLK, etc.

Wow, what a journey, thanks Laura!
 

alkhemst

Jedi Council Member
I've read a few references before to Mithra and Krishna, who precursors to Jesus, had strikingly similar stories, previous research I did suggested that the Jesus story was constructed over time to be more appealing to worshipers of other "gods". Although I've never heard of Julius Caesar's life being so close too. Anyway, doing a search around for "Mithra, Krishna, Caesar. Jesus", I came across a chapter from a book called "the great deception". On a cursory view, the parent site looks a bit off , but I found the chapter of interest.

_http://www.sabbathcovenant.com/book3TheGreatDesception/Chapter7.htm

Basically it makes a case for all the current "gods" of the time (including Divus Iulius) being lumped into each other by Constantine at the Council of Nicaea, as a political move. Pasted below:

At the Council of Nicaea, Constantine gathered together all the “presbyters” (pagan priests) of his day and all their gods and saviors and had them debate together in an attempt to create one composite “god” they all would agree to worship. This new "god" would be given all the combined attributes and basic life stories of the their gods rolled into one.

The list of gods represented by their respective “priests” included Eastern and Western gods and goddesses: Jove, Jupiter, Salenus, Baal, Thor, Gade, Apollo, Juno, Aries, Taurus, Minerva, Rhets, Mithra, Theo, Fragapatti, Atys, Durga, Indra, Neptune, Vulcan, Kriste, Agni, Croesus, Pelides, Huit, Hermes, Thulis, Thammus, Eguptus, Iao, Aph, Saturn, Gitchens, Minos, Maximo, Hecla and Phernes and many more. It was in this “context” that the “god” Jesus H. Christ was created. The long list was narrowed down to the main gods of the Roman Aristocracy (Zeus and the son of Zeus Apollo) and the gods worshipped by the bulk of the common people (Julius Caesar and the sun god Mithra) along with the Eastern god Krishna.

Up until the First Council of Nicaea, the Roman aristocracy primarily worshipped two Greek gods-Apollo and Zeus-but the great bulk of common people idolized either Julius Caesar or Mithras (the Romanized version of the Persian deity Mithra who was an incarnation of the Babylonian Tammuz). Caesar was deified by the Roman Senate after his death (15 March 44 BC) and subsequently venerated as "the Divine Julius" (very close to the name “Jesus”). The word "Saviour" was affixed to his name, its literal meaning being "one who sows the seed", i.e., he was a phallic god making him Julius Christ.

Julius Caesar (the initials JC and the name itself is very similar to Jesus Christ) was hailed as "God made manifest and universal Saviour of human life" as this new god would take on those same attributes i.e. God in the flesh (a contradiction of scripture as YHVH denied ever being a man or the son of man Numbers 23:19), and his successor Augustus was called the "ancestral God and Saviour of the whole human race" (Man and his Gods, Homer Smith, Little, Brown & Co., Boston, 1952).

So Julius was known as “Julius Christos” making it very easy for his followers to accept the new god “Jesus Christ”. Emperor Nero, whose original name was Lucius Domitius Ahenobarbus, was immortalized on his coins as the "Saviour of mankind". The Divine Julius as Roman Savior and "Father of the Empire" was considered "God" among the Roman uneducated pagan population for more than 300 years. He was the deity in some Western pagan priestly texts, but was not recognized in the Eastern parts of the realm or Oriental writings. So Constantine was forced to include the Eastern realm god Krishna (or Christ in English).

Constantine had a political problem that required a religious solution it is that simple. He never had a "conversion" to serve YHVH through Yahshua as we were led to believe. This "political problem" required he create a “god” that those who worshipped Julius would accept that would be acceptable to the factions in the Eastern and Orient who worshipped Krishna. All of these gods

Jove, Jupiter, Salenus, Baal, Thor, Gade, Apollo, Juno, Aries, Taurus, Minerva, Rhets, Mithra, Theo, Fragapatti, Atys, Durga, Indra, Neptune, Vulcan, Kriste, Agni, Croesus, Pelides, Huit, Hermes, Thulis, Thammus, Eguptus, Iao, Aph, Saturn, Gitchens, Minos, Maximo, Hecla and Phernes and many more were narrowed down from literally hundreds down to 53 then after much debate down to only 5 through balloting: Caesar, Krishna, Mithra, Horus and Zeus (Historia Ecclesiastica, Eusebius, c. 325). So we were given the god Jesus H. Christ literally by a group of pagan priests who cast their "vote" for their pagan god by ballot!

To make a very long and detailed story short, the council could not come to a decision on just one god they all could accept, so Constantine exercised his authority as Emperor and High Priest to consolidate the 3 primary gods that would effectively represent the Greek masses and the Eastern and the Oriental religions of the Roman Empire. Every one of these so called “gods” are nothing more than later incarnations of the Babylonian Religion whose saviour was Tammuz the second member of the Babylonian Trinity and son/sun of “God”. So, Constantine chose the following “gods” to unite his empire:

· To placate the powerful British factions he chose the great Druid god which was the sun god Hesus (an incarnation of Nimrod/Tammuz),

· To placate the faction from Egypt he chose the Assyrian sun god Horus (an incarnation of Nimrod/Tammuz).

· To placate the Eastern/Oriental factions he chose the Eastern Saviour-god, Krishna (Krishna is Sanskrit for Christ) (an incarnation of Nimrod/Tammuz).

These three main sun god / saviors were then united into one composite deity called Hesus Horus Krishna which later became known in its English derived name as Jesus H. Christ. Satisfying the Julius, Esu, Horus, and Krishna faithful who made up the vast majority of his empire. Constantine now had a “god” for his new religion which was not new at all but the rebirth of Babylonian sun worship. A “god” easily acceptable by all throughout his realm (except true followers of Yahshua whom he simply had killed in the inquisition).
To make this stick, it would make sense evidence to the contrary would expose this deception, so it would be doubtful that there would be much evidence of a historical Jesus remaining, what's probably left, making a fairy sweeping guess would have to be mostly forgeries and stories. In this respect it would be difficult to say whether there was a real Jesus or not.

Anyway, I've got too delve some more into Carotta. Some earth shattering stuff to say the least.
 

Laura

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seek10 said:
Fascinating compelling video. Still, there should be another Jesus christ who is stoic , reiki healer, christed one who exposed psychopathology whose teachings this emperor JC overshadowed for 2000 years .
Why? If you read "Horns of Moses" carefully, you would have noted that various stories about different stoics seem to be the roots of certain sayings of Jesus later on not to mention fundamental concepts.

Also, do read that paper Carotta wrote about Diegetic Transposition.

dantem said:
What is staggering are the icons from Caesar's Funeral, a man on a cross!
Still watching the Documentary, really impressive. Just one thing I haven't got really yet... Does this imply that the history of Jesus was wrapped around that of Caesar, or Caesar WAS actually Jesus??

This dirty job of translating a whole History from a place to another, like Homer's, is going to be annoying ;)
Again, Diegetic Transposition. I would say that Caesar was the main model for some things, Stoics and Cynics ideas and sayings were woven in there. I think Caesar was powerfully influenced by the Stoics and he was on Rhodes as a young man when Posidonius was still alive... and I'm still holding some cards close that will be going in the book. But this clue about Posidonius and Caesar might get you there if you really start digging.

Mark said:
The theorized, early gospel of Q had none of the narrative of Jesus's life, just a collection of wise sayings - Like the Gnostic "Gospel of Thomas".
Exactly. And as I pointed out several times in HoM (for those paying attention) there was a lot about the Stoics and Cynics that appears to have been tossed into the salad bowl that made the Caesar/Jesus salad.

Mark said:
So was there a separate individual, or individuals, (not Jesus/Julius Caesar), that Q was referring to - who did all those things and was/were also (an) exorcist(s)?
I think you should read Carotta's work available on the net as linked in first post. The answer to the question about exorcisms is there. The material about Stoics and Cynics is in HoM. So all that is needed is a savior figure with a particular life story to wrap all these ideas around, and that's Caesar.

Mark said:
Julius Caesar was a "high priest of Jupiter" early in his career, but he spent most of his life being a general and Consul it seems.

[edit:for clarity]
You need to read a LOT about Caesar to get the whole picture. Wikipedia is simply not adequate or even all that accurate.
 

luc

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stellar said:
Pashalis said:
Found this video documentary about Francesco Carotta and his idea about Jesus being Caesar:

The Gospel of Caesar:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwfY069iPVI

Documentary film about a linguist and a Catholic priest, who search for and find the origins of Christianity and the real historical Jesus: Julius Caesar.
Watching now...
Fascinating! Seems quite plausible to me.
I guess I've now a new reading list to add to the existing ones. :O
We watched the first hour yesterday and somehow this got me so excited! I had tears in my eyes at one point while watching, this remarkable man Carotta and how he seemed so dedicated to his work somehow deeply touched me... Great documentary.

On a personal note, we've been to Passau yesterday (where there have been the great floods) and we passed by a flee market when I said to my wife "why not buy a Jesus picture?" I never had any, growing up in an atheist household. At the end, we didn't buy one, and on the evening I found this thread and was totally thrilled. Funny. Thanks for the work!
 

Laura

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I bought a refrigerator magnet in Rome that says "Ave Caesar". And I have a little mini-bust of Caesar for my desk.
 

Laura

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Just to whet your appetites and add some background info to my thinking, here are some scattered excerpts collected by Weinstock in his "Divus Iulius" that will bring in some comet connections AND connections to Mithraism which is actually what I started out looking for.


The circumstances of Caesar's birth must have been miraculous, to indicate his great destiny. With his early youth, they were no doubt described in the lost chapters of Suetonius and Plutarch. A few fragments have survived: two of these, preserved by Sidonius Apollinaris and Servius respectively, refer to the moment of his birth; a third, to the intervention of Venus; one or two more to physiognomical signs. ... Sidonius [wrote] that Caesar was born whilst the laurel blazed. Though brief and obscure the reference must have been to a miraculous sign of Caesar's future greatness and divinity, because the context is about similar signs concerning Iulus, Cyrus, Romulus, Alexander, and Augustus. Three interpretations are possible: one would connect the sign with Apollo, the second with the use of the laurel for prognostics, and the third with forecasts from a sudden flame... blah blah
My suggestion is that this relates in some way to a comet. Comets were often described as trees or bushes or "bushy stars". Caesar was born on July 13, the festival of Apollo whose tree was the laurel which may have described a comet associated with this festival now lost. Whatever it was, a quotation from the missing portions of Suetonius' "Life of Caesar" preserved by Servius tells us the results of whatever this event was: the seers declared that the invincible ruler of the world was born. (In Suetonius Life of Augustus, a similar pronouncement is made about Augustus, the inheritor of Caesar.)

Caesar's birth omen is at any rate not posthumous evidence: it would not have made sense to invent such embellishments after his death. So it was part of a biography compiled in the last years of his life. ... It was said that he was a larger and more vigorous child at his birth than the average, and that he had beautiful locks and bluish-grey eyes. (Historia Augusta, Ael 2.4 and Lydus, mens. 4.102) ... There was an old belief that the hair was the source of life and power, and that its loss can be fatas as in the case of Nisus and Pterelaus whose daughters caused their downfall and death by cutting their hair. (Aeschylus. Choeph. 613, Euripides, Hipp. 1200, and more.) There is no comparable precedent for the power of Caesar's eyes; they may have had the same divine vigour and irresistibility which were ascribed to Augustus' eyes. It is perhaps no coincidence that what Vergil praises as gifts of Venus in Aeneas - youthful beauty, locks, and eyes, are the special features of Caesar too and they may have been recorded together in the lost biography. (Vergil. Aen. 1.589

Varro... first gives a correct definition: saeculum is the span of human life. He then records its use by the Etruscans to measure history: a saeculum begins with the foundation of cities and communities and ends with the death of the eldest of those men whose birth coincided with the foundation. Then another saeculum begins and lasts as long as the oldest man of the new period is alive, and so forth. The end of a saeculum is announced by special portents, which are recorded in the ritual books of the haruspices. The Etruscans were granted ten saecula, after which their rule would come to an end.

A great number of portents were recorded in 88 BC {when Caesar was 12 years old} among them the sound of a trumpet from heaven. The Senate consulted the haruspices, who explained that those portents announced the beginning of a new saeculum {era} and with it the Civil War. (Plutarch, Sulla 7.7)

In 65 frightening portents occurred again, and the haruspices declared that this time the portents indicated not just the end of a saeculum but the end of Rome altogether unless the gods intervened. Divine Intervention meant the appearance of an exceptional man, which was a new feature of the saecular doctrine, though an old theme elsewhere. The year before, Cicero recommended Pompey as such a heaven-sent man for the war against Mithridates, and even for the task of finishing all wars. (Cicero. Cat. 3.19.)

P. Cornelius Lentulus Sura asserted with reference to earlier saecular portents and their interpretation by the haruspices, that he too was such a man of destiny... Cicero in turn tried hard to interpret the signs of his consulate as pointing to himself and Pompey as the saviours of Rome. (Cicero. Cat. 3.26)
A snippet about Caesar's uncle:

Marius' great successes led to reflections in the Greek and Roman manner. Historians, including Posidonius, agreed that he was a favourite of Fortuna, in spiet of the fact that a few days before his death he declared that a thinking man could not trust Fortuna.
Source: Posidonius - (Fragments of the Greek Historians by Felix Jacoby):

Wikipedia said:
a collection of the works of those ancient Greek historians whose works have been lost, but of which we have citations, extracts or summaries in other works. It is mainly founded on Karl Wilhelm Ludwig Müller's previous Fragmenta Historicorum Graecorum (1841–1870).

The work was started in 1923 and continued by him till his death in 1959. The project was divided into five parts, of which only the first three were published. The first included the mythographers and the most ancient historians (authors 1-63); the second, the historians proper (authors 64–261); the third, the autobiographies, local histories and works on foreign countries (authors 262-856). The work thus far comes to fifteen volumes, but the fourth (biography and antiquarian literature) and the fifth part (historical geography) were never done. A pool of editors is currently trying to complete this task.
This comment on the uncle of Caesar by Posidonius adds a possible weight to my conjecture that Caesar went to study with him on Rhodes as a young man and that this was part of Caesar's early biography that is now lost. You will understand the significance of this if you have read HoM.

But, in addition to that, the opinion that Posidonius gives on Fortuna in the above snippet appears to be exactly the same view Caesar held.

At the beginning of Caesar's Civil War a laurel branch was said to have been dropped by a kite on the Forum ...

One would expect such portents for the beginning of the Civil War and in fact one can be found among the prodigies recorded by Dio for 49 BC. Such lists of prodigies are frequent and in general without any particular significance. But here the list includes an event which in normal circumstances was not a prodigy at all: M. Perperna, the last man of his generation, died, which pointed, so it was explained, to the beginning of a new era. (Dio 41.14-5) ... What perperna's death was further supposed to portend is a matter of speculation, certainly nothing good: the new saeculum would be the age of civil war. It is possible that the burning of the temple of Quirinus, which appeared in the same list of prodigies, belonged to the same theme.
During Caesar's Civil War against Pompey:

As the war went on Rome was disturbed by various prodigies. One concerned Fortuna and Caesar jointly: a thunderbolt hit the temple of Fortuna Publica and the horti Caesaris nearby at the Porta Collina; the temple of Fortuna opened of its own accord, and blood flowed thence to the temple of Fortuna Respiciens. It is not recorded how these prodigies were explained or purged.
The Source: (Marcus Velleius Paterculus (c. 19 BC – c. AD 31)

Wikipedia said:
{Velleius'} Compendium of Roman History consists of two books dedicated to M. Vinicius, and covers the period from the dispersion of the Greeks after the siege of Troy down to the death of Livia (AD 29). The first book brings the history down to the destruction of Carthage, 146 BC; portions of it are missing, including the beginning. The later history, especially the period from the death of Caesar, 44 BC, to the death of Augustus, AD 14, is treated in much greater detail. Brief notices are given of Greek and Roman literature, but no mention is made of Plautus, Horace or Propertius. The author does not display real historical insight, although generally trustworthy in his statements of individual facts. He purposed to write a fuller history of the later period, including the civil war between Caesar and Pompey and the wars of Tiberius; but there is no evidence that he did so. His chief authorities were Cato's Origines, the Annales of Q Hortensius, Pompeius Trogus, Cornelius Nepos and Livy.

Velleius Paterculus was little known in antiquity. He seems to have been read by Lucan and imitated by Sulpicius Severus, but he is mentioned only by the scholiast on Lucan, and once by Priscian. The text of the work, preserved in a single badly written and mutilated manuscript (discovered by Beatus Rhenanus in 1515 in Murbach Abbey in Alsace and now lost), is very corrupt.)
It was customary to carry the picture of an animal in front of the army, above all an eagle; the custom came from the East to Greece and Rome. The Roman legions had five animal symbols before Marius: eagle, wolf, Minotaurus (man-headed bull), horse, boar. Marius kept the eagle and abolished the others. (Pliny 10.16) The next innovator was Caesar: his legions had a bull on their standard. (Pliny 12.1-3)

It has been assumed that this bull was the Taurus of the zodiac, just as Augustus' legions adopted the Capricorn, his natal star. But as Caesar was not born in the sign of Taurus, it was argued that he chose this sign because Venus, his ancestress, was its protecting goddess. This is a conjecture prompted by the belief that all animal symbols of the legions were, like that of Augustus, astrological in origin, which is demonstrably wrong. Moreover the doctrine about the tutelary deities did not mean so much to Caesar and his contemporaries as to make him decide in its favour instead of his own natal star. ...

The innovation can be dated only approximately. It is most unlikely that Caesar's legions already had the bull on their standards in Gaul: the bull was not a symbol of the Roman State but his own... the proper date would rather be the beginning of the Civil War... The bull may have been put on the standards before he left for the war against Pompey.

... It was not a meaningless use of symbols, but should be compared with Constantine's vision in daylight of the cross. ... the similarity is so close as to suggest that Caesar's innovation must have been the ultimate precedent for Constantine's dream and subsequent action, probably with intermediary versions of the prodigy or miracle. If so, it was Caesar who first received the divine advice to use his symbol and the prophecy: 'hoc signo victor eris'... It was an effective way to reassure his soldiers in case they were hesitating to go overseas to fight Pompey... The bull or its head on the military standard is often found on legionary or other coinage and on other representations in metal or stone.
I would suggest that this is a very strong sign that I am right in conjecturing that Caesar was a high initiate - if not the highest - of the Mithraic Mysteries. Fact is, everywhere Caesar's army went, there were archaeological finds of Mithraea and related artifacts. When I went searching for the origins of the Mysteries of Mithras, I found the Stoics... and remember, Caesar was at Rhodes when Posidonius was living and teaching there. However, the first part of Caesar's biography by ANY source is missing which is, indeed, most peculiar. However, not too long ago, a pretty fancy Mithraeum was found beneath the palace of Augustus in Rome.

I'll be getting into the Mysteries of Mithras in the next volume and there are some very fascinating connections between Caesar and Diocletian who was also an initiate and saved the Empire some time later.

As it happens, the Mysteries of Mithras are connected to the discovery of the "precession of the equinoxes" and the recording of cometary events. So with these clues in mind, ya'll might want to re-read the final chapter of HoM and see if you can put some things together in your mind about what might really have been driving Caesar.

The portents that preceded the death of Caesar apparently continued for a year! They included an eclipse of the sun, pale light all through the year, earthquakes, thunderbolts, storms damaging statues, temples, and trees, and inundations. Vergil writes in book 1, Georgics:

In short, the message of late evening, the quarter whence the wind drives clear the clouds, the purpose of the rainy South - of all the Sun will give you signs.

Who dare say the Sun is false? He and no other warns us when dark uprisings threaten, when treachery and hidden wars are gathering strength.

He and no other was moved to pity Rome on the day that Caesar died, when he veiled his radiant face in gloom and darkness, and a godless age feared everlasting night. Yet in this hour Earth also and the plains of Ocean, ill-boding dogs and birds that spell mischief, sent signs which heralded disaster.

How oft before our eyes did Etna deluge the fields of the Cyclopes with a torrent from her burst furnaces, hurling thereon balls of fire and molten rocks. Germany heard the noise of battle sweep across the sky and, event without precedent, the Alps rocked with earthquakes. A voice boomed through the silent groves for all to hear, a deafening voice, and phantoms of unearthly pallor were seen in the falling darkness. Horror beyond words, beasts uttered human speech; rivers stood still, the earth gaped open; in the temples ivory images wept for grief, and beads of sweat covered bronze statues. King of waterways, the Po swept whole forests along in the swirl of his frenzied current, carrying with him over the plain cattle and stalls alike.

Nor in that same hour did sinister filaments cease to appear in ominous entrails or blood to flow from wells or our hillside towns to echo all night with the howl of wolves.

Never fell more lightning from a cloudless sky; never was comet's alarming glare so often seen.

So it was that Philippi beheld for a second time Roman armies clash in the shock of matching arms. and Heaven above did not demur at Macedon and the broad Balkan plains being twice glutted with the blood of our fellow citizens. Yes, and a time will come when in those lands the farmer, as he cleaves the soil with his curved plough, will find javelins corroded with rusty mould, or with his heavy hoe will strike empty helmets, and marvel at gigantic bones in the upturned graves.

Gods of my country, Heroes of the land, you, Romulus, and you, mother Vesta, who guard Tuscan Tiber and the Palatine of Rome, at least do not prevent this young prince from succouring a world in ruins! Long enough has our life-blood paid for Laomedon's perjury at Troy; long enough have Heaven's courts grudged you, Caesar, to us, complaining that you care for earthly triumphs! For here are right and wrong inverted; so many wars overrun the world, sin walks in so many shapes; respect for the plough is gone; our lands, robbed of the tillers, lie waste, and curved pruning hooks are forged into straight blades. Here Euphrates, there Germany, calls to arms; breaking the covenants which bind them, neighbouring cities draw the sword; the god of unholy strife rages throughout the world, even as when from the starting gates the chariots stream forth and gather speed lap by lap, while the driver, tugging vainly at the reins, is carried along by his steeds, and the car heeds not the curb!
 

c.a.

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Shijing said:
Also, regarding the Roman wives, here is one of the later comments made on Jesus' family:

12/4/99 said:
Q: I want to clarify the issue of Jesus’ wives. The first time we asked, you said that Jesus was not married, but had three children with three Roman women. The second time we asked, you said he had a wife, Anatylenia, and had three children with this one woman. My question is: did he have six children, three with one woman, and one each with three other women?
A: No.

Q: He had a wife and not the three Roman women?
A: No.

Q: Did he have a wife?
A: Three women, all were wives, in the “Biblical sense.”

Q: Now, Anatylenia was one of these Roman women?
A: Yes.

Q: Who were here parents? What was her patronym?
A: Sermalain and Galleinia.

Q: There were three children, one from each woman?
A: Yes.

Q: Male and female children?
A: Yes.

Q: How many of these children were male?
A: Two.

Q: Two boys and one girl.

Q: What was the name of the boys?
A: No, not for tonight’s session. Low energy now. So, goodnight.
The end of that session seems kind of evasive -- maybe there was some reason why this was a touchy subject, at least at the time. I haven't done any reading on Julius Caesar, so for now I'm just using Wikipedia, but in regard to the excerpt above the numbers of wives/lovers/children and gender of the children is pretty interesting:

Wives
First marriage to Cornelia Cinnilla, from 83 BC until her death in childbirth in 69 or 68 BC
Second marriage to Pompeia, from 67 BC until he divorced her around 61 BC
Third marriage to Calpurnia Pisonis, from 59 BC until Caesar's death

Children
Julia with Cornelia Cinnilla, born in 83 or 82 BC
Caesarion, with Cleopatra VII, born 47 BC. He was killed at age 17 by Caesar's adopted son Octavianus.
adopted: Gaius Julius Caesar Octavianus, his great-nephew by blood, who later became Emperor Augustus.
Marcus Junius Brutus: The historian Plutarch notes that Caesar believed Brutus to have been his illegitimate son, as his mother Servilia had been Caesar's lover during their youth.[126]

Lovers
Cleopatra VII mother of Caesarion
Servilia Caepionis mother of Brutus
Eunoë, queen of Mauretania and wife of Bogudes
Interesting as Arafat was also assassinated, possibly, by those closest to him, or within the spree of influence. Poisoned, that at first did not leave a trace.

What Killed Arafat? Aljazeera
An investigation into the mysterious death of the late Palestinian leader reveals that he may have been poisoned. 05 Jul 2012 13:03
_http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/whatkilledarafat/2012/07/20127413371805105.html
941022
Q: (L) On a couple of occasions it has been mentioned that Yasser Arafat was a fifth density soul and that he was a descendant of Jesus of Nazareth. What is there about him that demonstrates these qualities or these genetics?
A: Have you not seen? Imagine what it would be like to be Yasser Arafat. Look at your perception. What is he doing now?
Q: (L) Well the pro-Jewish point of view is not favorable to him.
A: Well, what you describe as pro anything is an obsession. And, as we know, obsession blocks knowledge which in turn blocks the ability to protect oneself against negative occurrences. Not a good idea. If you were following circumstances, Yasser Arafat is now trying to take the world upon his shoulders by making peace with the Israelis who have been enemies for a very long time. And, therefore, he is now a peace maker and knowledge dispenser.
Q: (L) In that particular conflict between the Jews and the Arabs, which side has the greater validity?
A: All sides have equal validity. It is only with individuals we find negativity or positivity.
Side note same session
Q: (L) During a previous reading we asked several questions about Jesus of Nazareth known as the Christ. The question was asked: "Was Jesus special, that is, Christed, in some way?" The answer came back was: "Quick exalted; wars; civil entrancement. Zindar council." I would like to know the meaning of these references.
A: Quick exalted refers to a sudden boost of awareness level as related to your previous questions about knowledge. Sometimes that acquisition can occur in a surge and sometimes this is referred to as illumination. Jesus acquired his knowledge by having complete faith in his ability to acquire the knowledge from a higher source. This faith caused an equal balancing interaction with higher sources, which allowed him to gain supreme knowledge simply by having that faith. Remember that the resources for the acquisition of knowledge in the space/time ere of Christ were much more limited than they are now. There were few options open for acquiring true knowledge except total and complete faith. And this one was instilled with the awareness that total and complete faith would cause dramatic and spectacular acquisition of knowledge; also would cause dramatic and spectacular progression of the soul being. Therefore, the faith was felt, the knowledge was received.
Q: (L) What was the source of the knowledge?
A: The source was the sixth level of density which is where we reside and we also were involved in that as well.
 

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Pierre

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Alana said:
Interesting, though I never knew much about Julius Caesar's life, I always felt for him, his betrayal that caused him his life must be one of the heaviest in history. A very sad moment in history, followed by similar sad moments as the assassinations of JFK, RFK, MLK, etc.
When I read the description of Caesar's death I had the similar deep sadness as when i read about the death of JFK or RFK. I found Caesar last words particularly heartbreaking "you too, my son?"

Although there is controversy to know if those last words were ever pronounced, I think they are certainly consistent with the abyssal disappointment Caesar must have felt when he saw Brutus, the one he had treated like his son, the one who was probably his son, the one he had forgiven several times despite repeated betrayals, was part of the assassination plot.

So, the end of the story goes, and Caesar, after seeing Brutus would have just left his toga over his head, stopped fighting and stoically left the assassins finish their dirty work.

After reading a few books about Caesar, the main conclusion I came too is that he was not human. He was more than human. Exceptional individuals are genius in one field. Very exceptional individuals are genius in several fields (like Da Vinci). Caesar was a genius in many fields: combat, strategy, psychology, oration, law, organization, writing, politics, writing, engineering, architecture, logistics, negociation, administration.

However, one point could seem paradoxical in Caesar's life: how to reconcile the million of people he got killed and the notion of mercy he was the first to defend and apply.

I guess Caesar reasoning was fairly simple. To counteract the Senate destructive plans and laws that would have caused millions and millions of death all over the Empire and beyond, he had to be able to fight the Senate and implement fairer policies.

He first tried the political way but even when he proposed the most excellent laws the Senate was refusing them. They knew they would be highly beneficial for the people and the Empire but they also knew they would increase Caesar's power, who was a real populist. Its goal was truly to serve people.

So, when Caesar became consul, title that enabled him to raise armies he decided to gain legitimacy through military achievements. At this time, generals backed by massive armies were sometimes more powerful than the Senate (see Sulla for example).

So Caesar chose a consulship in near Gaul and at the first opportunity he started a war in Gaul. I think he genuinely mis-evaluated the reaction of the Gallic tribes. And what was supposed to be a short pacification mission around Swiss became a bloodbath that lasted several years and where from Caesar's account 1 million Gauls were killed.

Where is mercy in such mass killings? Actually very often Caesar offered mercy to his enemies. What seems normal today was a revolution 2 millennium ago, when defeated enemies were systematically killed/tortured/enslaved.

That was indeed a revolution. Caesar maybe thought that his enemies would realize this major progress and respect this most superior virtue: mercy. Well, some did but most didn't. Caesar forgave a lot of his enemies who ended up betraying him again (like Brutus). In this case Caesar was unforgiving (except with Brutus) because this second time the enemies was not really betraying Caesar, worse he was betraying mercy that he had been entrusted with.

Once Gaul had been pacified Caesar came back to Rome to see the oligarchic Senate plotting against him, instead of giving him the political legitimacy he deserved. Despite Caesar's efforts and compromises the Senators kept increasing the pressure until they decided to attack him militarily. That's how the civil war started. After years of struggles where Caesar showed more mercy than ever, he finally pacified the whole Roman Empire and gave a lot of key positions to his ex enemies.

During the two last years of his life Caesar ruled Rome and introduced many fundamental laws and decisions. He remained faithful to his initial populist (serving the People) orientations. Without destroying the elites, he managed to reduce some of their privileges while substantially raising the quality of life of his fellow citizens. He also deeply modernized how Rome operated and transformed it from a local tribe ruling point to a genuine world empire coordinating organization. Caesar built a massive library, gave citizenship to many non-Romans, reduced slavery by a third, distributed food to the poorest, reformed Roman law, adopted a Solar calendar... A benevolent revolution was in progress but it was soon to be ended.

Caesar's lasting populist orientations increased the Oligarch's anger. In addition the enemies he had forgiven and put in key positions felt belittled by Caesar. All this resentment finally led to Caesar's assassination on the fateful Ides of March 44 B.C.

The bloodbath and social regression that occurred after Caesar's death confirmed that Caesar's was right. His reign had probably generated less death and suffering than if the Senate had been left to conduct its oligarchic policies.

It seems that all along his life Caesar had been serving two higher principles, namely honor and mercy. For him these two values were more important than anything else, including his own life and he proved it several times, for example when charging on the front line without his horse during battles that were considered as lost in advance.

From what I see, Caesar's main weakness is that he thought others (Gallic leaders, Cicero, Pompey, Brutus,...) were respecting mercy and honor as much as he did. Most of the time they didn't, instead they betrayed, lied and plotted again and again.

That was Caesar's big mistake to attribute to others the same very high standards as the ones he applied from the beginning to the end of his life.

During Caesar's reign, humanity experienced something it probably had never experienced before and might never experience again (apart maybe for JFK to a lesser extent). Half of the world was ruled by a benevolent leader who had full power and who exercised it, starting to create a new world order made of more justice, solidarity, education.

No doubt that Caesar left a very deep mark in people's memory and heart. Caesar had become the perfect model to shape a imaginary Savior figure after him because, in fact, Caesar had been a very real one.
 

Pierre

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The portents that preceded the death of Caesar apparently continued for a year! They included an eclipse of the sun, pale light all through the year, earthquakes, thunderbolts, storms damaging statues, temples, and trees, and inundations. Vergil writes in book 1, Georgics:
Caesar's comet was quiet an exceptional event. It occurred in July 44 B.C. during games organized in his honor. So the comet crossed the skies during Caesar's birth month and 4 months after his death.

Caesar's comet is one of the brightest comet ever observed if not the brightest one. It was visible for 7 days in a row. Its magnitude was estimated to be between -3 and -4, knowing that the more negative the magnitude of a celestial body, the brighter it is. For comparison in recorded history only 5 comets have exhibited a negative magnitude.

In Divus Julius, Suetonius described the apparition of the comet in those terms:

"a comet shone for seven successive days, rising about the eleventh hour, and was believed to be the soul of Caesar."
On post mortem coinage, Caesar's figure has been frequently associated with his comet/star. Here one can find some analogies with the association between the star of Bethleem and the birth of Jesus Christ, as depicted in Matthew:

Now after Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, behold, wise men from the East came to Jerusalem, saying, Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we have seen His star in the East and have come to worship Him. When Herod the king heard this, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him. And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he inquired of them where the Christ was to be born.
Caesar's comet seems to have followed a westward trajectory similar to the star of Bethlehem (coming from the East) since it was first observed in China (May 44) and only later in Rome (July 44).
 

SeekinTruth

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Hmm. Very interesting and timely. After reading The Ancient City recently, I started reading Caesar's The Gallic Wars. After finishing Book 1, I took a detour reading/rereading some other stuff (The Authoritarians, Gatto's The Underground History of American Education, the full article of the Role of Play in Hunter-Gatherer Societies, etc.) for about a week, and was about to start on Book 2 of The Gallic Wars when I saw this thread.

So I've got a lot more of parallel reading and viewing of videos to do while completing up to Book 8 of the Gallic Wars. Probably will reread HoM for the third time too -- or at least the chapters on the Cynics and Stoics and the last chapter, as Laura suggested, for now.

Another strange thing is that I could have sworn that I read a post either here in the forum or in a SOTT reader comment several months ago talking about this very issue with links and excerpts from some of these same authors. As I read the suggestion of Julius Caesar being Jesus Christ, I scratched my head, thinking that's pretty crazy, but could it be true? As some of the excerpts were pretty interesting, I wondered... but wasn't sure how legit it all was, and somehow never got around to checking out the links/sources. FWIW.
 

alkhemst

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Laura said:
Just to whet your appetites and add some background info to my thinking, here are some scattered excerpts collected by Weinstock in his "Divus Iulius" that will bring in some comet connections AND connections to Mithraism which is actually what I started out looking for.
Its incredible the JCs parallels to Mitra.

- Mithra born in a grotto
- attended by magi who followed a star from the East
- brought "gifts of gold, frankincense and myrrh"
- was a newborn baby was adored by shepherds
- Mithra, one of a trinity
- had a last supper with Helios and 11 other companions
- Mithra was later crucified on a cross, bound in linen, placed in a rock tomb
- rose on the third day or around 25 March
- Mithra promised to return in person to Earth and save deserving souls.

Just wondering could have the life of Julius Caesar, be embellished also to be more like a divine being rather than just a man? Considering he was later a figure of worship amongst competing figures of worship, it makes sense that it could be likely.
 

Mark7

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Laura said:
Why? If you read "Horns of Moses" carefully, you would have noted that various stories about different stoics seem to be the roots of certain sayings of Jesus later on not to mention fundamental concepts.
I recall Burton Mack mentioning the Stoics and Cynics as an influence for his original "Jesus people", I can see now that they were those Stoics and Cynics!

I am guessing those "lightbringer" controller types just HAD to deify somebody so that the deception could begin, (again). Caesar may have been a Stoic, but by deifying Julius Caesar/Caesar as Jesus Christ, the various PTB of those times broke the thread of history and people lost a great deal of knowledge.

Starting with "The Ancient City" and then Carrota. I know Wikipedia won't cut the mustard.
 

Gaby

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I saw the documentary about the Gospel of Caesar last night, followed by Horns of Moses' last chapter today. Can't think of a better way to spend July's new moon, except by doing EE later tonight ;)

This thread has been very revealing and I hope it is only the beginning of much more interesting discoveries and learning.
 
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