Was Julius Caesar the real Jesus Christ?

[Laura]

Oh boy, this one is interesting!

In her worship,
her virginity was expressed by the fact that she was the only goddess
who was not portrayed but illustrated by a flame that burnt in her unadorned
and empty house.! Her virginity was equated with her invisibility; her constant
presence, on the other hand, was symbolized by the nonphysical flame':
"She is a presence, not a vision."o Those who approached her would not have
been able to find her, because her presence could not be perceived with one's
senses. Any type of depiction, whether physical or mental, would have been
an act of profanation. The perpetual virgin was a manifestation of holiness
and the essence of the sacred. From the point of view of cultural anthropology,
virginity is associated with a state of physical intactness, moral integrity,
purity, unity, and not least, great power." In the case of Vesta, the Roman state
participated in her solitary and sovereign position as the guardian of the flame,
the (state) hearth, and the respublica, which she personified. 2

The priestesses of Vesta were members of an ancient cult, the origins of
which, according to Roman mythical tradition, dated back to the Roman Kingdom,
thus starting at the same time as Roman history itself." As a matter of
fact, even the founding legends of Rome include a Vestal Virgin as the mother
of the twins Romulus and Remus.'" Like the goddess whom they worshipped
in her house, her successors were also virgins and were usually addressed by
their contemporaries as virgo or virgines

 

[mkrnhr]

I'm still reading behind (that Cicero deserves the invention of a time-machine just to bud-spencer him in the face). Is it possible to connect the eternal flame of Vesta to Heraclitus' "fire"?

 

[Laura]

I'm still reading behind (that Cicero deserves the invention of a time-machine just to bud-spencer him in the face). Is it possible to connect the eternal flame of Vesta to Heraclitus' "fire"?

It sure seems rather similar.

It occurs to me that Caesar, as pontifex maximus, the only one having the power over the vestals, i.e. Cicero's sister-in-law, Fabia, might have used this position as a bargaining tool with Cicero during the Catiline controversy. Cicero may have been attempting to embarrass Caesar as pontifex - which might have had repercussions - by sending in Clodius to the Bona Dea festival at Caesar's house. With Fabia there, as a vestal, she could have increased Caesar's embarassment, or she could have declared that there was a "sign" from the goddess during the ceremony that was unfavorable to Caesar, or could have declared that the ritual fault was with the pontifex, not the vestals. The situation was really pregnant with possibilities and I seriously doubt that it was just because Clodius was on a lark or after Caesar's wife. Obviously, if that was his aim, there were much better - and safer - opportunities for dalliance than a house full of women! And Caesar's mother on hand! Sheesh.

So, it does seem to me that there was a plot afoot and Cicero was behind it. He was gloating over his success at the previous year's festival and the "sign" that backed his human sacrifice (for so it was). Cicero was singularly un-creative. If he found something that worked, he did it again.

But Caesar acted very, very quickly. He divorced his wife with the famous remark that Caesar's wife must be above suspicion but refused to prosecute Clodius himself. The scandal died down and would have faded away had it not been brought up later by a guy named Cornificius (I think) who was, interestingly, a Caesarian. So that suggests that, in some way, Caesar may have been behind pushing the issue out there because he had plans to separate Cicero from Clodius. Obviously, since Crassus came to Clodius' rescue, the two of them were working on this together.

So, at some point, Caesar may have made it imperative for Cicero to testify against Clodius either via a third party, or possibly directly by threatening Fabia. Or perhaps, Fabia acted for Caesar. Later events suggest that Cicero's wife was disgusted with his pusillanimous behavior toward Caesar - she may have become a Caesarian; and his brother, too was a legate of Caesar's.

The fact that there was some kerfuffle about vestals associated with Clodius is very interesting. We know that he was too young to have prosecuted Catlina for incestum with Fabia but he did prosecute Catiline for other misdeeds in the year or two before Cicero became consul and the Catiline affair came to the fore. So some things seem to have been confused and conflated. It is said that, during his trial, Clodius really went off on the corruption of the sacred organizations, like the vestals, so the threat may have come from him which made Fabia determined to see him hang and so, she pressured Cicero to testify against him.

A whole lot of interesting things are all tangled up in this knot.

 

[Laura]

I found another older one to read online, this one is particularly interesting since it is an older book yet makes a strong connection between Caesar and the early Church.

It does however bring up so many more questions, for instance it is becoming clearer all the time that Caesar was the actual personification used for the Jesus myth, but as for the church itself, might there be any connection between the disappearance of the Druids, who were basically in charge of "religion" at the time, and the appearance of the Popes, taking charge of this new church, and assuming most of the power once held by the Druids?
Was this whole deal a kind of transfiguration of one established religion into another, using what was at hand.. as what happened with Caesar/Jesus?


Author: Gundolf, Friedrich, 1880-1931; Hartmann, Jacob Wittmer, 1881-
Subject: Caesar, Julius
Publisher: London : G. Richards and H. Toulmin at the Cayme Press, ltd.
Possible copyright status: NOT_IN_COPYRIGHT
Language: English

https://archive.org/details/mantleofcaesar00gundiala

This has turned out to be quite a brilliant and deeply insightful book. I hope those of you who are wondering how the knowledge of Caesar as Jesus was lost will read it. It also, as I had already begun to figure out, proposes that a whole lot of legends and folk-tales and myths of Europe, probably even including the Grail stories, are really about Caesar.

 

[SeekinTruth]

Alright, thanks Meager1 and Laura. I'll probably be reading that next (then get to some other things lined up, including the Worship of Augustus Caesar one I saved and all the papers you attached, Laura).

 

[Don Genaro]

I found another older one to read online, this one is particularly interesting since it is an older book yet makes a strong connection between Caesar and the early Church.

It does however bring up so many more questions, for instance it is becoming clearer all the time that Caesar was the actual personification used for the Jesus myth, but as for the church itself, might there be any connection between the disappearance of the Druids, who were basically in charge of "religion" at the time, and the appearance of the Popes, taking charge of this new church, and assuming most of the power once held by the Druids?
Was this whole deal a kind of transfiguration of one established religion into another, using what was at hand.. as what happened with Caesar/Jesus?


Author: Gundolf, Friedrich, 1880-1931; Hartmann, Jacob Wittmer, 1881-
Subject: Caesar, Julius
Publisher: London : G. Richards and H. Toulmin at the Cayme Press, ltd.
Possible copyright status: NOT_IN_COPYRIGHT
Language: English

https://archive.org/details/mantleofcaesar00gundiala

This has turned out to be quite a brilliant and deeply insightful book. I hope those of you who are wondering how the knowledge of Caesar as Jesus was lost will read it. It also, as I had already begun to figure out, proposes that a whole lot of legends and folk-tales and myths of Europe, probably even including the Grail stories, are really about Caesar.

Indeed, it gives a new level of meaning to the saying "all roads lead to Rome" :D

 

[dant]

I am blown away with this topic as Laura answered my question on topic,
The Controversy of Zion, Reply #94 on: September 22, 2006, 02:02:49 PM:

[...]
Reading C of Z, also points me in the direction regarding 'What happened to the Romans' as this is
a BIG gap in my understanding of history - and where did these people go, ie where did the Roman
Civilization go and I am of course not seeing it [yet] in C of Z. I have the mindset that these groups
of people and civilizations was somehow assimulated into the present cultures and spread out like a
web, much like how the Judahist sect has done? Very interesting stuff!!!
[...]

Networking is GREAT!

 

[dia6olo]

I found another older one to read online, this one is particularly interesting since it is an older book yet makes a strong connection between Caesar and the early Church.

It does however bring up so many more questions, for instance it is becoming clearer all the time that Caesar was the actual personification used for the Jesus myth, but as for the church itself, might there be any connection between the disappearance of the Druids, who were basically in charge of "religion" at the time, and the appearance of the Popes, taking charge of this new church, and assuming most of the power once held by the Druids?
Was this whole deal a kind of transfiguration of one established religion into another, using what was at hand.. as what happened with Caesar/Jesus?


Author: Gundolf, Friedrich, 1880-1931; Hartmann, Jacob Wittmer, 1881-
Subject: Caesar, Julius
Publisher: London : G. Richards and H. Toulmin at the Cayme Press, ltd.
Possible copyright status: NOT_IN_COPYRIGHT
Language: English

https://archive.org/details/mantleofcaesar00gundiala

This has turned out to be quite a brilliant and deeply insightful book. I hope those of you who are wondering how the knowledge of Caesar as Jesus was lost will read it. It also, as I had already begun to figure out, proposes that a whole lot of legends and folk-tales and myths of Europe, probably even including the Grail stories, are really about Caesar.

Excellent find Laura.

I'm only 25 pages in, very good read and he has well and truly sussed Cicero!

 

[Laura]

Excellent find Laura.

I'm only 25 pages in, very good read and he has well and truly sussed Cicero!

Meager1 deserves the credit for this great find! She's out there digging!

 

[HiThere]

The author claims on page 6 that Alexander the Great "regard him" (presumably Caesar) as "one of the eternal images" - but Alexander died in 323 BC.

 

[Laura]

The author claims on page 6 that Alexander the Great "regard him" (presumably Caesar) as "one of the eternal images" - but Alexander died in 323 BC.

Yes. There are a couple of name switches in there but it is clear that he knows his history so must have been a typo or translation error.

 

[HiThere]

Thank you for that - I felt my reading motivation slip away for a moment there. :)

 

[Laura]

Thank you for that - I felt my reading motivation slip away for a moment there. :)

Oh, no! Keep in mind that I have real glitches with names sometimes too! And when you are doing history, there are just SOOOO many of them! After awhile, things start to blur. I actually think that was a translation error.

 

[Mal7]

The original 1925 German edition has:

Bei Alexander und Karl steht er als eines der ewigen Bilder, bei Napoleon, noch bei Bismarck als eine der heutigen Mächte. Sein römisches Altertum hat ihn nicht erstarrt, seine Gegenwart nicht verkleint.

- _http://www.amazon.com/Caesar-German-Friedrich-Gundolf/dp/3846024317/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1390429742&sr=1-1&keywords=3846024317#reader_3846024317

What that means I don't know. The 1928 English translation gives it as:

Alexander the Great and Charlemagne regard him as one of the eternal images; for Napoleon and Bismarck he is an ever-present force. His Roman antiquity has not petrified him or diminished his living presence.

 

[Laura]

The original 1925 German edition has:

Bei Alexander und Karl steht er als eines der ewigen Bilder, bei Napoleon, noch bei Bismarck als eine der heutigen Mächte. Sein römisches Altertum hat ihn nicht erstarrt, seine Gegenwart nicht verkleint.

- _http://www.amazon.com/Caesar-German-Friedrich-Gundolf/dp/3846024317/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1390429742&sr=1-1&keywords=3846024317#reader_3846024317

What that means I don't know. The 1928 English translation gives it as:

Alexander the Great and Charlemagne regard him as one of the eternal images; for Napoleon and Bismarck he is an ever-present force. His Roman antiquity has not petrified him or diminished his living presence.

Google translates it as follows:

When Alexander and Karl he stands as one of the eternal images, Napoleon, nor in Bismarck as one of today's powers. His Roman antiquity has not solidify him, his presence not verkleint.

So, I think it must mean "Along with Alexander the Great and Charlemagne, he stands (is regarded) as one of the eternal images; for Napoleon and Bismarck, he is an ever-present force. ... "

Meanwhile, disconcerting discovery. Petrarch who more or less got the whole "looking into the past, reading ancient writings to recover history" thing going, apparently utilized all the available ancient sources to write a bio of Caesar. It's apparently highly regarded as a work. However, it has NEVER been translated into English!!!

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Viris_Illustribus_%28Petrarch%29

Obviously, I would like to have a translation of this. (Just the Caesar) So, who can do it? Anyone?