Was Julius Caesar the real Jesus Christ?

Laura said:
but his letters are EXTREMELY pricey. I found one volume online as a PDF, but the other is just not available without big bux. See:
http://www.amazon.com/Letters-John-Salisbury-1163-1180-Medieval/dp/0198222408/ref=sr_1_11?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1390550377&sr=1-11&keywords=john+of+salisbury

I checked and the university library does have this book. However, it's not clear yet whether I'm allowed to borrow it, as it says "Library use only". However, I'll see what I can do at the library. Will check it out in the first week of February.
 
dantem said:
Just found a 10 pages pdf draft from Petrarca's De Viris Illustribus, Caesar's Chapter or 'De Gestis Caesaris'.
Here it is, google translated, not checked. I'll do a better job when I got it all.

From https://archive.org/stream/levitedegliuomi00razzgoog#page/n26/mode/2up, it is almost 700 pages all about Caesar, but half of it is the Latin version: 350 pages in Italian. Right, so how do we organize this? It has no table of contents, but how about if I start with the last chapter, you start with the first chapter and we meet in the middle? As we get it done, we send it to Don Genaro?

The last 50 pages correspond to "Voices, definitions and examples from the Crusca vocabulary" and it is available only in Italian.

Don Genaro said:
Having a quick look at the Google translation, I'd say that it would probably be easier to translate from Italian to English than it would be from Google's translation to English! If you want to start Dantem and see how it goes it sounds great. I'm off all week next week so I was thinking that we could work through Google hangouts - it might make it faster? I can work together with both you and Gaby, depending on your free time. Just let me know if you think it might work.

I still prefer google translate, it is easier to organize sentences around and correct their meaning than to translate from zero.

As we get it ready, we could send it to you. As you know Spanish, you will be able to discern and correct "Italianisms" since they are pretty much as in Spanish. We can meet in google hangout for clarifications, etc.

Better suggestions?

Is the text on the link the best version of the book?
 
Gaby said:
From https://archive.org/stream/levitedegliuomi00razzgoog#page/n26/mode/2up, it is almost 700 pages all about Caesar, but half of it is the Latin version: 350 pages in Italian. Right, so how do we organize this? It has no table of contents, but how about if I start with the last chapter, you start with the first chapter and we meet in the middle? As we get it done, we send it to Don Genaro?

It has a table of contents, of sorts, starting on p. 747, listing the different chapters and summaries in Italian.

Is the text on the link the best version of the book?

It's the only one I could find ...
 
Approaching Infinity said:
Gaby said:
From https://archive.org/stream/levitedegliuomi00razzgoog#page/n26/mode/2up, it is almost 700 pages all about Caesar, but half of it is the Latin version: 350 pages in Italian. Right, so how do we organize this? It has no table of contents, but how about if I start with the last chapter, you start with the first chapter and we meet in the middle? As we get it done, we send it to Don Genaro?

It has a table of contents, of sorts, starting on p. 747, listing the different chapters and summaries in Italian.

Excellent! It is 27 chapters and a couple of chapters on "Voices, definitions and examples from the Crusca vocabulary" and "Voices not found in the Crusca vocabulary"

These last couple of sections are expressions, examples and their meanings used throughout the book. We could either translate those later or add them as notes. It adds context.

Page 749 contains a list of errors made in the Italian version: "solo" instead of "sole" in page 9 and so forth. Very useful!
 
Gaby said:
I still prefer google translate, it is easier to organize sentences around and correct their meaning than to translate from zero.

Okay, whatever is easier for you. My point was that looking at the English translation, I would actually find it very difficult to "translate" it into something readable and would imagine a Spanish to English as being easier! But whatever is easier for you :)

Gaby said:
As we get it ready, we could send it to you. As you know Spanish, you will be able to discern and correct "Italianisms" since they are pretty much as in Spanish. We can meet in google hangout for clarifications, etc.
Whenever you're ready :D

Also, if you find any sections that are slowing you down, you can skip them and we can probably handle them quicker between two or three on Google hangouts.
 
Gaby said:
These last couple of sections are expressions, examples and their meanings used throughout the book. We could either translate those later or add them as notes. It adds context.

Page 749 contains a list of errors made in the Italian version: "solo" instead of "sole" in page 9 and so forth. Very useful!

Yes, I would suggest skipping any "extras" that are not very important and concentrating on the main text.
 
Holy Caesar! 350 pages!

So, I suppose we can work through the Sott translation online platform, put all the 27 chapters, doc-files-google-translated in there, and then anyone of us can pick one chapter at a time, work on it, and then leave it to the next one when finished, or going on following the common rules of the Traslator's Team :)

First thing to do would be:

1- Download all the images
2- OCR them into text files, .doc usually.
3- Start the google translate thing.
4- A first sweep through it to fix punctuation and most ugly errors.
5- Upload the 27 chapters/files on Transop

Something like that... then we can start checking it all in depth. Anyone can pick up a chapter and start working on it.

Comments?
 
Found this doing a google search for something else. Looks like it might be interesting:

_http://trace.tennessee.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1259&context=utk_chanhonoproj

It's an honors thesis titled: "Caesar: Slain with Daggers but Stabbed with Words" or "Cicero as Failure and Fraud"
 
Approaching Infinity said:
Found this doing a google search for something else. Looks like it might be interesting:

_http://trace.tennessee.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1259&context=utk_chanhonoproj

It's an honors thesis titled: "Caesar: Slain with Daggers but Stabbed with Words" or "Cicero as Failure and Fraud"

Read it. Pretty lightweight: high school level.
 
dantem said:
Something like that... then we can start checking it all in depth. Anyone can pick up a chapter and start working on it.

Comments?

Sounds good!

It is formal Italian literature from the 19th Century, there are words that are no longer used in any book nor are found in any dictionary. I can still recognize them from their root words, but making this into common English is most tricky! In any case, I think it is fair to say that my translation is better than google translate!

Petrarch mentions in Chapter 27 that Crassus wife was Caesar's lover, also Pompey's wife.

Anyway, can someone send me an invitation to sott_translate?
 
I'm on page 187 in Gundolf's "The Mantle of Caesar" and it really is a continuous revelation of a very deep mind. So, I got curious about the author. From Wikipedia:

Friedrich Gundolf, born Friedrich Leopold Gundelfinger (20 July 1880 – 12 July 1931) was a German-Jewish literary scholar and poet and one of the most famous academics of the Weimar Republic.

Gundolf, who was the son of a mathematician, studied art history and German language and literature at the universities of Munich, Berlin and Heidelberg. He received his doctorate in 1903 and completed his Habilitation (attainment of professor's status) eight years later. His habilitation work about "Shakespeare and the German spirit" (Shakespeare und der deutsche Geist, 1911), marked a turning point in German language and literature studies.

He also was an important member of the Georgekreis, which he joined in 1899. He published first poems in Stefan George's "Blätter für die Kunst". During 1910 and 1911, he edited the "Jahrbuch für geistige Bewegung" (Yearbook for mental movement), which preached the cultural political opinions of the Georgekreis. He and Stefan George stayed on good terms for more than twenty years, but later, George broke completely with him, on the occasion of his marriage in 1926.

In his works in literary studies, Gundolf took a new, historically-oriented view on literature, which centered on the philosophically determined registration of the poet. To him, the great writers (such as Shakespeare or Goethe) were symbolic figures of their time and during his academic research, he sought to present not only the artist, but also the effects of his works.

From 1916 to the late 1920s, Friedrich Gundolf was professor at Heidelberg university. In 1921, one of his students was Joseph Goebbels, later famous as the Nazi propaganda minister, who at that time admired the famous literary scholar and his colleague Max Freiherr von Waldberg. Von Waldberg also became his supervisor, when Goebbels wrote his doctoral thesis.

From 1927, Gundolf suffered from cancer, and died of it four years later. Gundolf's works were banned by the Nazis in 1933.

There is no reference to his book about Caesar.
 
Hmmm... http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/1207810?uid=3738016&uid=2129&uid=2&uid=70&uid=4&sid=21103293456381

and:
http://www.jta.org/1931/07/14/archive/friedrich-gundolf-german-literary-historian-dead

Here he is:

Jacob_Hilsdorf_-_Friedrich_Gundolf.jpg
 
Gundolf also wrote one other 90 page book on Caesar, Caesar im Neunzehnten Jahrhundert ("Caesar in the 19th Century"). Berlin: Georg Bondi, 1926. It doesn't seem to have been translated into English.

Contents:
Inhalt: NAPOLEON -- BYRON -- INDIVIDUALISMUS UND DEMOKRATIE DER EUROPÄISCHEN ROMANTIK -- MICHELET -- AMEDEE THIERRY -- AMPERE -- QUINET -- DUMAS UND SUE -- FRANZÖSISCHE GESCHICHTSGENIESSER -- SAINTE BEUVE -- MERIVALE -- DE QUINCEY -- LANDOR -- MACAULAY -- HEGEL -- GIOBERTI -- RANKE -- BURCKHARDT -- MOMMSEN -- COMTE -- NAPOLEON III UND SEINE GEGNER -- TREITSCHKE -- CÄSARFORSCHUNG NACH MOMMSEN -- BACHOFEN -- WAGNER -- NIETZSCHE. - Vorwort: Das Verhalten zu Menschen zeigt Menschen klarer als ihr Verhalten zu Sachen und Lehren. Cäsar bleibt auch im neunzehnten Jahrhundert ein gültiges Maß, ein zentrales Gleichnis des europäischen Wertewandels, wenn er ihn auch nicht mehr miterschafft wie in den Zeiten des Kaisertums, der Kirche und der Klassik bis zu Napoleon. Seine Lösung vom wirkenden Geschehen, sein wissenschaftliches Erscheinen ist ein eigener Vorgang, getrennt von der Geschichte seines Ruhms, das heißt seiner Macht- und Gestaltwerdung. Auch hier kommt es ebenso auf die entscheidenden Träger seines Bildes an wie auf dessen ewigen Gehalt. Unser Versuch bringt nicht mehr und nicht weniger als sein Titel verspricht: weder Stoffsammlung noch unter beiläufigem Vorwand allgemeine Geisteshistorie, sondern die Mär eines sinnbildlichen Helden in einem bestimmten Zeitalter. Eine neue Geschichte Cäsars selbst könnte heute nur schreiben, wer von innen her der cäsarischen Mittel mächtig und ihm artverwandt wäre. Was die reine Forschung und Betrachtung seiner Tat und Welt leisten kann ist längst für lange geleistet. Was uns noch obliegt ist die bewahrende Kunde der Menschenwerte und -bilder: dazu soll diese Schrift ein kleiner Beitrag sein.
- _http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?an=gundolf&bi=0&bx=off&ds=30&recentlyadded=all&sortby=2&sts=t&tn=caesar&x=75&y=11&yrh=1927&yrl=1926


From Google Translate:
Content: NAPOLEON - BYRON - INDIVIDUALISM DEMOCRACY AND THE EUROPEAN ROMANCE - MICHELET - AMEDEE THIERRY - AMP - QUINET - DUMAS AND SUE - FRENCH HISTORY LOVERS - SAINTE BEUVE - Merivale - DE QUINCEY - LANDOR - Macaulay - HEGEL - GIOBERTI - GARLAND - Burckhardt - MOMMSEN - COMTE - NAPOLEON III AND HIS OPPONENT - Treitschke - RESEARCH BY CAESAR MOMMSEN - BACHOFEN - WAGNER - Nietzsche . - Foreword : The behavior to people shows people more clearly than their behavior to things and teachings. Caesar remains a valid measure , a central parable of the European values ​​change , even though he no longer co-creating it as in the days of the Empire , the Church and the classical to Napoleon in the nineteenth century. His solution from the acting scene , his scientific publication is a separate process , apart from the story of his glory, that is, his power and taking shape . Again, it comes just at the crucial support of his image as to its eternal content . Our attempt brings no more and no less than its title promises : neither material collection general still casual pretext mental history , but the tale of an emblematic hero in a certain period . A new story of Caesar himself could only write , who would be mighty and him artverwandt from within the Caesarian means today. What that can do pure research and contemplation of his deed and the world has long been done for a long time. What we still responsible for preserving customer of human values ​​and images : this document is intended to be a small contribution.
 
The page below shows some of Gundolf's personal letters that would need to be translated but it may provide some further insight regarding his life and thoughts in general:

PID: 1383827
Call Number: DM 142. MF 429
Author/Creator: Gundolf, Friedrich, 1880-1931
Physical Description: 1 reel.
Content and Scope: 300 Letters and postcards by Friedrich Gundolf to Erich Kahler
Historical Notes: The bulk of letters within Erich Kahler's personal correspondence came from Friedrich Gundolf, a very close friend of Kahler and his first wife, Josephine (née Sobotka). Their close friendship, in which Josephine was also involved, is visible throughout all those letters. Kahler's and Gundolf's discussions about literature can be reconstructed in the correspondence. The letters date from 1910 and last until Gundolf's death in 1931.
Friedrich Gundolf was born 1880 as Friedrich Leopold Gundelfinger in Darmstadt. He was a poet and a professor of German philology in Heidelberg, where he died in 1931.
Erich Kahler (originally von Kahler) was born on October 14, 1885 in Prague and grew up in Vienna, Austria. During his studies at the universities of Berlin, Munich, Heidelberg and Freiburg, he attended lectures in Philosophy, Literature, Fine Arts, History, Sociology and Psychology, which illustrate the wide range of his academic education. Erich Kahler died in Princeton, New Jersey in 1970. - See more at: _http://access.cjh.org/home.php?type=extid&term=1383827#1

_http://access.cjh.org/home.php?type=extid&term=1383827#1
 
One of the most fascinating things about Gundolf's study is that one is enabled to "take the measure" of the various writers, historians, poets, etc, who examined the life of Caesar and opined on it, or reproduced or used it in some way. It's almost like a Ponerological study on those individuals who have shaped the thinking of leaders or masses at various points in history. There are a number of those he references with whose work I am familiar enough to see that what he is saying is accurate and deeply insightful. So I tend to accept what he says about those whose work I am not familiar with. In fact, he cites so many works that most of us have never heard of that it is quite an amazing exposition.

Gundolf's synopsis of Lord Bacon is devastating but it is something I have long felt to be true though I was never able to articulate exactly why. This discussion begins at the bottom of p. 196.

Another fascinating thing about this book is that he describes the context in which ideas and perceptions and perspectives emerge which amounts almost to a history of the emergence of the domination of the church, it's conflicts with state power, and how it was overtaken by the religion of science via the Renaissance.

Amazing book.
 

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