Was Julius Caesar the real Jesus Christ?

[SeekinTruth]

Looking forward to the translation of Mommsen's monograph. Thanks, again, for all the work going into sorting out the mess of "official history."

 

[Dirgni]

Happy Caesar's Birthday!

 

[stardust]

In this day, which is both Cesar's birthday than the French National Day, I wonder about the meaning of Phrygian cap, which is wearing by the french symbol of Republic : Marianne.

Here she's wearing the phrygian cap and also masonic symbols :
http://www.google.fr/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.over-blog.com%2F225x300%2F3%2F00%2F94%2F57%2FBUNKERS-CRAU%2Fimg_mus_30-1-.jpg&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.camargue-insolite.com%2Farticle-4-franc-macons-et-montagnards-d-arles-1851-43726671.html&h=299&w=225&tbnid=E39PzCQQLjpXmM%3A&zoom=1&docid=2YOLuxjWYW8qgM&ei=JZjDU-GHC-jE0QWw0YHYBg&tbm=isch&iact=rc&uact=3&dur=2754&page=1&start=0&ndsp=35&ved=0CE8QrQMwDw

Here with a crown of olive leaves and ear wheats:
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marianne#mediaviewer/Fichier:MariannedeTheodoreDoriot.JPG]http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marianne#mediaviewer/Fichier:MariannedeTheodoreDoriot.JPG[/url]


Here the cap and an oak crown :

http://www.loretlargent.info/guides/la-marianne-coq-20f-la-pieces-dor-napoleon-emblematique/



Here an image from Eadwine psalter ( middle of 12th century).

Jesus Christ/Jules Cesar ? dancing with a woman with phrygian cap :

http://www.google.fr/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.metahistory.org%2Fimages%2FEADdance.jpg&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.metahistory.org%2Fpsychonautics%2FEadwine%2FMysticJesus.php&h=521&w=385&tbnid=0jN23FfpofZT8M%3A&zoom=1&docid=kJt0O_Xul7uH9M&ei=-ZjDU9SVBcGH0AWCvIGoCw&tbm=isch&iact=rc&uact=3&dur=2860&page=5&start=147&ndsp=44&ved=0CLoBEK0DMDw4ZA

Cybel was a phrygian divinity, mother of Gods. Her cult seems to have been "imported" in Rome during the wars against Hannibal, because an oracle from the sybil of Cumes prophecized that Hannibal would be defeated if the cult of Cybel came in Rome. So in -204 BC, the roman senate make come the Black Stone of Cybel from Pessinonte in Phrigya.

With Cybel (incorporated as Demeter/Ceres) came her companion Attis :

http://www.google.fr/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2F8%2F8e%2FAttis_child_(marble_bust).JPG&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fcommons.wikimedia.org%2Fwiki%2FFile%3AAttis_child_(marble_bust).JPG&h=1600&w=1200&tbnid=aB8PbNdh2j5rLM%3A&zoom=1&docid=cZth-bwYbnfDDM&ei=I5vDU-a4N-bN0QXD4YDgAw&tbm=isch&iact=rc&uact=3&dur=1665&page=1&start=0&ndsp=37&ved=0CEkQrQMwDA

L'ÉVOLUTION DES MYSTÈRES PHRYGIENS A ROME
par M. Van Doren
Et ipse Pileatus Christianus est, « le Dieu avec le bonnet c'est aussi un Christ », telle était la fameuse maxime d'un prêtre d'Attis (x), faisant allusion à la mort et la résurrection du dieu phrygien, et à la béatitude éternelle qu'il procurait à ses fidèles, tout comme le Christ. Récemment, P. Lambrechts (2) a su démontrer que le compagnon de Cybèle n'a pas été toujours le dieu qui meurt et qui renaît, mais qu'au début la religion métroaque à Rome gravitait autour du culte de la Grande Mère, conçue comme divinité d'État. Un changement radical s'est opéré plus tard dans la religion phrygienne, en deux étapes distinctes : de la cérémonie Arbor Intrat, fêtes de deuil de la mort d'Attis, et de la lavado par l'empereur Claude, d'une part, et ensuite la réforme définitive du culte par Antonin le Pieux, le cycle complet des fêtes de la mort et de la résurrection du jeune Attis, devenu désormais une divinité officielle.
Dans la présente étude nous nous proposons d'examiner s'il a existé à Rome, dès l'introduction de la Mère des Dieux, en 204 av. J.-Chr., des Mystères phrygiens, en d'autres termes, si la métroaque a toujours eu pour but d'assurer à ses initiés une vie bienheureuse dans un autre monde. C'est là en effet le suprême que procure ce grand groupe de religions que nous appellerons « Mystères » au sens technique du mot, et en avec les « religions d'État ». Comme Fa bien remarqué le regretté Fr. Cumont (3), « les anciens cultes officiels des cités
(1) S. Augustin, In Ioh. ev. tract., VII, 1, 6 (Migne, XXXV, p. 1440); cf. Hepding, Attis, p. 70.
(2) P. Lambrechts, Le « Rameau d'Or » devant la science des religions, 1952, Le Flambeau, p. 24 ss. et surtout Les fêtes « phrygiennes » dans le culte de Cybèle et d'Attis, Bull. Inst. hist. Belge de Rome, 1952, pp. 141 sv.
(3) F. Cumont, Lux Perpetua, p. 235-236.

EVOLUTION OF PHRYGIAN MYSTERIES IN ROME
Et ipse Pileatus Christianus is "the God with the cap, it is also a Christ", this is the famous maxim from an Attis'priest, making allusion to the death and ressurection of the phrygian God and the endless bliss that he provided to his followers. Recently, P. Lambrechts (2) has shown that the companion of Cybel has not always been the God who die and re-birth but that in the beginning of the metroac religion in Rome gravitated around the Great mother Cult, conceived as State divinity [...].

http://schoenelblog2.blogspot.fr/2011/12/l-esprit-de-noel-4.html:

Le culte de Kubila, (la Grande mère ou Mère des Dieux que les Grecs et les Romains nommèrent Cybèle ou Agdistis), était le plus célèbre en Phrygie. Personnifiant la nature féconde, elle était adorée sur le mont Dindymon sous le nom "Mère Montagne". Elle portait une coiffe en forme de tour.

The cult of Kubila ( the Great Mother of Gods that Greeks and Romans called Cybel or Agditis) was the most famous in Phrygia. Personifying the fertile nature, she was worshiped on the Dindymon Mount under the name of "Mother Mountain". She was wearing a tower-shaped cap

Do you remind what Franscesco Carotta says about Mary Magdalena/ Cleopatra ? Magdalena as the lady of the tower and Cleopatra as the queen of the tower (of Alexandria)...


Well, this phygian cap seems to have a lot to say... and what about Marianne and France as "The eldest daughter of the (catholic) Church?" wearing a phrygian cap and a crown as Cesar/Christ ? Even her name Marianne... Marie-Anne... Marie-MagdAleNa.... strange, no?

 

[SlavaOn]

Hello.

I just started reading "Gallic Wars". In the very first chapters is speaks about Helvetii tribe decision to move from their territory. It says, in Chapter 5 - they burnt their towns, villages, private dwelligns and "they burnt up all the corn; except what they intend to carry with them".
Should it be "they burnt all the crops..." ? How would corn be growing in medeival Europe at the time when it has not been discovered by Europeans yet?

In latin version, this is called "frumentum omne" and Google translator also translates it into English as "all corn"...

SlavaOn

 

[Approaching Infinity]

Hello.

I just started reading "Gallic Wars". In the very first chapters is speaks about Helvetii tribe decision to move from their territory. It says, in Chapter 5 - they burnt their towns, villages, private dwelligns and "they burnt up all the corn; except what they intend to carry with them".
Should it be "they burnt all the crops..." ? How would corn be growing in medeival Europe at the time when it has not been discovered by Europeans yet?

In latin version, this is called "frumentum omne" and Google translator also translates it into English as "all corn"...

SlavaOn

Corn just means 'grain' in these contexts. In British English, it means "the chief cereal crop of a district, esp. (in England) wheat or (in Scotland) oats."

 

[Ollie]

Hello.

I just started reading "Gallic Wars". In the very first chapters is speaks about Helvetii tribe decision to move from their territory. It says, in Chapter 5 - they burnt their towns, villages, private dwelligns and "they burnt up all the corn; except what they intend to carry with them".
Should it be "they burnt all the crops..." ? How would corn be growing in medeival Europe at the time when it has not been discovered by Europeans yet?

In latin version, this is called "frumentum omne" and Google translator also translates it into English as "all corn"...

SlavaOn

Corn just means 'grain' in these contexts. In British English, it means "the chief cereal crop of a district, esp. (in England) wheat or (in Scotland) oats."

In England it could also mean barley.

 

[dantem]

Hi, been blocked on many angles recently, didn't have a chance to go through the Petrarca Book as yet.

Anyway, a couple months ago I've stumbled on a book in a local bargain mini-expo, it's an essay on Caesar on many angles and some chapters seem to be an interesting read.

An example, quickly translated:

THE DISAPPEARANCE OF THE NAME OF CAESAR
LISTS BY DIVI


GIORGIO BONAMENTE
University of Macerata


Based on a well-known formula of Dio Cassius we can say that Julius Caesar, although it was the first Roman politician to have obtained in the form of deification in the form of relatio inter divos, never made part of the ‘official list’ of the divi, or, in the words of the historian of the Severan period, the ‘’ [greek quote - See the .pdf file]1.

The formula does not expressly refer to Julius Caesar, but to Caligula, but, as it is known, is a landmark in the history of general imperial apotheosis, as it puts the list of emperors in connection with two functions civil and religious as important as the oath of allegiance and the supplications that were made on the occasion of the annual Vota.
Since Cassius Dio is, along with Herodianus, the historian who has thought more deeply and that he could, thanks to the amplitude of the chronological arc known to him, also consider the phenomenon as a whole, it is to believe him when he says that is such a divus if his name is evoked in oaths and relied upon in supplication, which in fact was not the case for the Divus Julius, or, better said, it happened to him, over time, in a different and unique way compared to a group consistent and fixed of other divi.
This is why a provocative title, which directs the expectation towards an unlikely intermediate practice between the consecratio and abolitio memoriae, a practice not expressly defined in institutions, but firmly anchored to politic opportunities and ideological fashions: those for which they wanted to forget, on several occasions, establishing that the builder of the principatus was the dictator perpetuus Julius Caesar, then divus Iulius. [...]

This chapter alone it's about 24 pages with notes, with a bunch of quotes in greek here and there. I've got the full pdf scan - it's actually the 2nd volume of a whole collection of writings from a local University, a dozen chapters in total.

The volume is titled: The Culture in Caesar, Vol.II., and the most intriguing chapters are the one above, "The Disappearance Of The Name Of Caesar" , and "The Apotheosis of Caesar, Myth and Reality".

I'll OCR it and translate as an exercise :). I'll report the titles of the other chapter too later on.

 

[dantem]

Here it is. The pdf is the original with the greek inscriptions. The .docx is the translated file.

 

[Palinurus]

Thank you for your trouble, dantem. Looking forward to reading it.

 

[Laura]

Me too!

 

[Navigator]

Looks very interesting indeed, thanks!

 

[dantem]

Thanks! Hoping the translated text is decent at least.
More savvy translators could fit in at will.

The other two chapters that could be of interest are (Summaries are already written in English in the book):

CAESAR APOTHEOSIS BETWEEN MYTH AND REALITY:
OVID., Met., 15,745-851

SUMMARY

In his celebration of Caesar's apotheosis, included in the explicit of his Metamorphoses, Ovid refers essentially to that popular superstition which identified the dictator's soul with the comet (sidus lulium) appeared on the occasion of the ludi held in honour of Venus Genitrix. This tradition was started by Caesar himself after the official proclamation of the divine ancestry of the gens lulia (see SVET., Iul., 6), and was then continued by Augustus, Caesar's adopted son. Ovid's narration, which is precisely about the transformation of Caesar's soul into a star (i.e.. a metamorphosis!), belongs to the typology of catasterism and, for its characteristic features, the story reflects the modalities and the ideas typical of the Vergottlichung (to keep to the distinction established by H. Gesche in her fundamental note on this subject). Moreover, it is necessary to remark that, in Ovid's construction of this myth, close analogies emerge - either formally and conceptually - with the account of Aeneas-Indiges's and Romulus-Quirinus's metamorphoses/apotheoses (see Met., 14,581 ff. and 805 ff. respectively). Finally, in the figure of the Roman dictator Ovid recognizes the last link of a historical cycle ending with his metabasis but, on the other hand, foretelling the beginning of the new cycle started by Augustus.

and,

THE GOD'S JOB AND ITS OWN RISKS (RELIGIOUS-HISTORIC REFLECTIONS ABOUT SIG[3] 760)

SUMMARY
The aim of the present paper is to explore the `meaning' of the sacrificial, ritual aspects of Julius Caesar's violent death according to the official, historical and mythical records of the event as they can be found hidden in our written sources. Violent death, particularly through [a7tapayµós ...greek type here], discerpsio, is the model through which mythical and/or supernatural beings succeed in founding new aspects of the cosmos, new concrete useful items, or to achieve a new status for themselves. In the Roman polytheistic system of the age of Caesar, one character of the mythical-historical past (where mythical and historical must be perceived in the peculiar Roman perspective), Romulus, the founder hero and the first king, is made a god after his violent death by identifying him with Quirinus. This is true at least according to an important variant of the tradition. The myth, the report of Caesar's death as a true divine sacrifice, points to a conscious or even unconscious utilization of a well known ancient mythical string by the cultural media in Caesar's age. According to this string, kingship - considered in the aspect of an overwhelming, transhuman power in search of human approval - links humanity, or better a restricted selection of it, to divinity in a way that needs justification and even expiation through death. The most conspicuous example is obviously the Egyptian dead god Osiris who is so closely related to the institution of Egyptian kingship and the connected doctrine of individual immortality. In Caesar's age the struggle for the acquisition of an individual special status, that is a `divine' status (a common target not only for the new post-Alexander monarchies but also for the well-to-do Mediterranean élites through the whole Hellenistic age), became common as a political challenge in Rome. Caesar's death brought to the public as a divine sacrifice - the sacrifice of Romulus Quirinus - opens officially the Roman Imperial age as the first serious attempt of founding an imposed ecumenical government which turned on the human pivot of an emperor - Augustus and successors - whose destiny was to be a divus, a god through/after death. It is interesting that precisely in this age it is reported that a true son of god made the symmetrical decision of becoming a human being through a violent death for apparently the same purpose: founding an ecumenical government. Discussion on the structural mythical symmetries and derived historical consequences is open.

There are a few more then:
"The Politics of Myth and Rite in Giulia's funeral: Caesar debut career".

 

[Palinurus]

Dantem, I started reading your docx-file but I ran into trouble almost immediately.

The translation seems to be an uncorrected mechanical google translation which is almost unintelligible for its convoluted grammar, so I need to consult the Italian to help me understand the English; and the Greek phrases didn't come through the OCR process unscathed, so I need to verify each and every Greek remark in the PDF-file just to see what is really meant before trying to translate the Greek into whatever.

All this results in a rather time consuming reading exercise and I'm not quite certain whether this text in its present format would be worth all that trouble, especially while I have other readings on my plate with higher priority than this one.

Therefore, for the time being I have decided to lay it aside and only have an occasional glance at it again whenever I can spare some idling time that's otherwise unproductive. It's obvious that such a way of reading will take very long to finish it off, so don't expect me to give any further comment on it shortly.

I'm sorry.

 

[dantem]

Dantem, I started reading your docx-file but I ran into trouble almost immediately.

The translation seems to be an uncorrected mechanical google translation which is almost unintelligible for its convoluted grammar, so I need to consult the Italian to help me understand the English; and the Greek phrases didn't come through the OCR process unscathed, so I need to verify each and every Greek remark in the PDF-file just to see what is really meant before trying to translate the Greek into whatever.

Yeah Palinurus, it's pretty horrible! The google translation has been revised a couple times by hand. Surely the fault is that I have the original in mind, and so the translation it "sorta reads" to my eyes and then the language is pretty academic and 'convoluted' by itself, so I don't know if I can do a better job here. And yes, I left the pdf attached in order to catch the greek passages.. it took me one hour just to fix one paragraph with the 'Symbol' font, so I've just left a note there, 'just read the pdf'.

I'll do the next one more slowly, while rephrasing the first one. Thanks for the report!

 

[Konstantin]

I1m still reading this topic about Caesar and and cant find that its already posted, so i`ll post here. Sorry if somebody already posted this.

Like we all know Jesus was crucified when he was about 33 years old. We know that this " Jesus" did not realy exist, and as the C`s said we can see the signature of the Consortium here. Its his Age . 33 .

A: Note change in altitude for "signature".

Q: (Perceval) From 35 to 33...

(L) 33. Is 33 the clue?

A: Yes. Consortium. And who is at the top of this STS pyramid??

Q: (Perceval) Figures.

(L) Who is at the top of this pyramid? And who is at the top?

(Perceval) MOSSAD.

(L) MOSSAD? The Israelis?

A: Yes

So maybe this is another clue that the character of Jesus is made on purpose.
I came to this idea yesterday. I saw one bracelet made from fine thin rope with 33 knots on it. It is sold at ortodox monasteries and churches all over the Balkan peninsula. The priests explanation is that its a holy bracelet and it have a tiny plastic or metal cross on it and 33 knots. You can see the image of that bracelet bellow . And they sell it for very good price. And people buy it and they are not asking for price because its "holy and it will bring them good health and prosperity".