Was Julius Caesar the real Jesus Christ?

[Voyageur]

Thank you for this translation Oxajil! It certainly is a picture of Caesar distinct from the common depictions of him by Cicero and the like. The more I read about him the more I can't help admire him.

Yes, ditto, thank you for this, Oxaji.

After reading what Laura wrote on SoTT today and once more thinking of the likes of Caesar, the world seems to have been left wanting for people of his like, and that like only really concluded in being falsely immortalized in the guise of another; a biblical equivalency. Yet today, with few exceptions, none have stepped forward like Caesar, and of those that do, like Caesar, they are vilified all the more for their being.

Going back to a session held awhile back, Caesar had this to say in response to a question of advice:

Q: (Atriedes) If you could give 3 pieces of advice to the world, what would they be?

A: I was wrong to think I could change the masses by example. Humans are fickle and self-centered for the most part. Thus, if you wish to really effect changes, it can only be done by early education, and even then it is fragile and will not last. In the end you must be true to your own nature and fear nothing. If you do that you may make a difference after you are gone. That is not exactly what you are looking for, but there are no 3 pieces of advice that serve all events.

He may have been wrong to think he could change those who would not and could not see, yet he tried, he aspired to a moral foundation that considered all being represented as one embarking on a new path. When the daggers came out though, their points where as sharp then as the lies that face people like Putin today, and the lies today are even more deadly if one considers the gaping wounds of humanities global abject poverty, along with unfettered greed and war that has resulted. So as Caesar laments, there seems no end to this "fickle" humanity that can be seen on the horizon.

Oh, indeed, Vladimir Putin has tossed a monkey wrench into the works of the Global Elite's drive for full-spectrum dominance, but the last person who did that from within what could be called an equivalent empire was Julius Caesar, and look what happened to him.

Indeed, that is so. Nonetheless, I'm heartened that people have at least now had a new lens put on Caesar that corrects the specious words of others; like what you said whithecoast, of people like Cicero. And so, as Caesar was saying, he does "make a difference" for some well after he departed.

 

[Chrissy]

Thank you for this translation Oxajil! It certainly is a picture of Caesar distinct from the common depictions of him by Cicero and the like. The more I read about him the more I can't help admire him.

Yes, thank you for translating this Oxajil. It was very timely for me. I've been looking for information on Caesar that I can share with my daughter that shows him in a different light. She is studying him now in school and her teacher is portraying him as a militant and cruel person who was despised by the people. I think it's good to have discussions and try and paraphrase what I've read to her, but being able to read out loud from a cited source that was worded in a way that is understandable to an 11 year old really helps.

 

[Laura]

Thank you for this translation Oxajil! It certainly is a picture of Caesar distinct from the common depictions of him by Cicero and the like. The more I read about him the more I can't help admire him.

Yes, thank you for translating this Oxajil. It was very timely for me. I've been looking for information on Caesar that I can share with my daughter that shows him in a different light. She is studying him now in school and her teacher is portraying him as a militant and cruel person who was despised by the people. I think it's good to have discussions and try and paraphrase what I've read to her, but being able to read out loud from a cited source that was worded in a way that is understandable to an 11 year old really helps.

You should get your daughter a copy of Arthur Kahn's book "The Education of Julius Caesar".
http://www.amazon.com/The-Education-Julius-Caesar-Reconstruction/dp/0595089216

There seem to be some cheap used copies.

 

[Chrissy]

Thank you for this translation Oxajil! It certainly is a picture of Caesar distinct from the common depictions of him by Cicero and the like. The more I read about him the more I can't help admire him.

Yes, thank you for translating this Oxajil. It was very timely for me. I've been looking for information on Caesar that I can share with my daughter that shows him in a different light. She is studying him now in school and her teacher is portraying him as a militant and cruel person who was despised by the people. I think it's good to have discussions and try and paraphrase what I've read to her, but being able to read out loud from a cited source that was worded in a way that is understandable to an 11 year old really helps.

You should get your daughter a copy of Arthur Kahn's book "The Education of Julius Caesar".
http://www.amazon.com/The-Education-Julius-Caesar-Reconstruction/dp/0595089216

There seem to be some cheap used copies.

I just looked at the sample and am excited. Thank you! Great price too. I was looking at Goldsworthy's book, but thought it would be difficult for her even if we read it together.

 

[latulipenoire]

Perhaps, interesting to note is that after the part about Caesar, Giovianni starts to write about the Roman poet Virgil. He writes: "As man could find the Incarnation of the coming Christ, in my opinion, in the greatest Roman hero [Caesar]; so was the greatest Roman poet Virgil, according to many Christians, the Prophet." Giovanni writes that Virgil could've been the Prophet who had the calling to announce the Roman Christ. I haven't translated this part, but if there's interest, I'd be happy to do so!

It'd be very interesting to know what Virgil had to say about Caesar! Maybe the "Jesus" cited in the excerpt below is really Ceasar?

In the Middle Ages, Virgil's reputation was such that it inspired legends associating him with magic and prophecy. From at least the 3rd century, Christian thinkers interpreted Eclogues 4, which describes the birth of a boy ushering in a golden age, as a prediction of Jesus' birth. As such, Virgil came to be seen on a similar level as the Hebrew prophets of the Bible as one who had heralded Christianity

from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virgil

 

[striveforselflessness]

Probably Virgil was calling back to Julius Caesar, or flattering Augustus and making a religious 'origin' story for him.

I recall reading somewhere here that Bauer suggested that the original inspiration for Virgil's Aeneid was Julius Caesar having attempted to create an 'egyptian-style' religion. I don't recall much evidence for that except that, well, Mithraism happened. I'd love to know what made Bauer think that as I did not read his books. However it could have been Augustus' aspirations instead.

 

[Oxajil]

Perhaps, interesting to note is that after the part about Caesar, Giovianni starts to write about the Roman poet Virgil. He writes: "As man could find the Incarnation of the coming Christ, in my opinion, in the greatest Roman hero [Caesar]; so was the greatest Roman poet Virgil, according to many Christians, the Prophet." Giovanni writes that Virgil could've been the Prophet who had the calling to announce the Roman Christ. I haven't translated this part, but if there's interest, I'd be happy to do so!

It'd be very interesting to know what Virgil had to say about Caesar!

Apologies for the late response latulipenoire, just saw your post! I will have another look at the part about Virgil and see if Giovianni wrote any interesting bits about what Virgil had to say about Caesar. I'll let you know here :)

 

[Palinurus]

From: _http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2015/12/dutch-archaeologists-find-proof-of-julius-caesar-led-massacre-in-the-netherlands/

Dutch archaeologists find proof of Julius Caesar-led massacre in the Netherlands

December 10, 2015

Dutch archaeologists claim they have proof Roman emperor Julius Caesar spent time in what is now present day the Netherlands, after finding remains of a battle site near Oss in Brabant.

They say they have found the location where Caesar fought against two German tribes in 55 BC and that this is the first battle field in the Netherlands.

Archaeologist Nico Roymans of Amsterdam’s VU University, says this is the first time the presence of Julius Caesar on Dutch soil has been proved. Until now, the site of the battle, which Caesar describes in his account of the Gallic wars, De Bello Gallico, was unknown.

The archaeologists used historical, archaeological and geo-chemical analysis to confirm their discovery after finding a large number of skeletons, swords, spearheads and one helmet over the past 30 years.

Carbon analysis dates the bones to the last century BC and that, combined with weapons, means the find can be dated to the right period, Roymans told television show DWDD.

The two German tribes came from an area east of the Rhine and asked Caesar for refuge. He refused and ordered his troops to massacre them in what academics say would now be labeled genocide.

Roymans will give more details of the find at a news conference on December 11 at the Allard Pierson Museum in Amsterdam.

Similar here: _http://www.nltimes.nl/2015/12/10/julius-caesar-battlefield-discovered-in-southeastern-netherlands/

The two Germanic tribes, the Tencteri and Usipetes, came from the area east of the Rhine and asked Caesar for asylum. Instead the general ordered his forces to destroy the tribes.

EDITED to add link to the passage in DBG (in English):
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.02.0001:book=4:chapter=1

 

[gdpetti]

Isn't this the same type of 'welcome' all those immigrants are getting in the EU now? Very reminiscent it seems, how the patterns repeat. One difference is that it was really not up to Caesar to let them in, as the lands in that area or any where in the world following this pattern is/are already inhabited by some group... and are they willing to just let anyone asking for free admission to come as they please? Open admissions policy? Isn't that how the 'American Indians' started their own problems with the white immigrants from Britain/Europe et al.... again with that 'greek' lesson from Odysseus it seems.

 

[Palinurus]

Interesting comparison which i wouldn't have thought of myself. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Oxajil]

Interesting Palinurus.

Dutch archaeologists find proof of Julius Caesar-led massacre in the Netherlands

December 10, 2015

The two German tribes came from an area east of the Rhine and asked Caesar for refuge. He refused and ordered his troops to massacre them in what academics say would now be labeled genocide.

[...]

The two Germanic tribes, the Tencteri and Usipetes, came from the area east of the Rhine and asked Caesar for asylum. Instead the general ordered his forces to destroy the tribes.

The situation was a bit more complicated than that. If the texts as provided in this link are correct (below the page): http://www.livius.org/sources/content/caesar/caesar-on-the-usipetes-and-tencteri/

Then it is understandable that Caesar would attack them. He tried to come up with a solution for them:

[4.8.2] if they remained in Gaul there could be no question of friendship between us. It was unreasonable for people who were unable to protect their own territory to seize other people's, and besides there was no land available in Gaul that could be given to them without causing resentment, especially considering their great numbers.

[4.8.3] I told them they could, if they wished, settle in the country of the Ubians,note whose envoys were then in our camp, complaining about the wrongs done them by the Suebians and asking me for help; I would give instructions to the Ubians about this.

They asked for time (to complete arrangements, discuss the matter); but then they attacked Caesar's force unexpectedly.

[4.13.1] After this battle it was clear that I was dealing with an enemy who with out provocation had launched a treacherous attack when they had asked for peace.

After the forces won against them in another attack, those who were detained were given another chance: "But they were afraid of being killed or tortured by the Gauls whose lands they had ravaged, and they wanted to stay with me. I allowed them to retain their liberty"

Also note that these groups wanted to claim land by force and violence.

[4.4.7] The Germans killed them and seizing their boats, crossed the river before news of all this could reach the Menapians on the left bank. Once across, they seized all the buildings that the Menapii had there, and lived on their supplies of food for the rest of the winter.

Perhaps they would have given some refuge if they would have been willing to cooperate. Nonetheless it is always sad when innocent people are killed in these battles, especially women and children. I think Caesar did what was best and offered a solution that was rejected - again assuming the texts provided are correct. Fwiw.

 

[Palinurus]

Thanks for spelling this out, Oxajil.

I agree with you that the Dutch news coverage didn't take neither time nor trouble to get to the available sources and verify the exact state of affairs around this alleged massacre, and opted for the easy way out by resorting to ladling out the preconceived notions which are common to Caesar's image.

After discovering this, I opted for only adding a direct link to DBG without further explanation. Your link to livius.org is a welcome expansion on that.

It's also interesting to note that the nestor of livius.org, Jona Lendering, was quoted as expressing reservations on the finds and their explanation, but willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.

Historicus Jona Lendering, auteur van De rand van het Rijk, over de Romeinen en de Lage Landen, reageert desgevraagd aanvankelijk kritisch. „In die tijd zijn meer gevechten geweest tussen Germanen en Romeinen, of Germanen onderling. De Fasti Triumphales, de lijst van Romeinse overwinningen, vermeldt bijvoorbeeld een strijd in Gallië in 43 voor Christus.” Maar: „Vanwege de locatie geef ik Roymans het voordeel van de twijfel.”

Historian Jona Lendering, author of The Edge of the Empire, about the Romans and the low countries, when prompted responded initially critical. "In that time, there were more fights between Teutons and Romans, or Germans. The Fasti Triumphales, the list of Roman victories, for example, mentions a battle in Gaul in 43 BC. " But: "because of the location I give Roymans the benefit of the doubt."

Source (Dutch): _nrc.nl/next/2015/12/10/julius-caesar-leverde-slag-bij-kessel-en-lith-1566277
and also here: _nrc.nl/handelsblad/2015/12/10/caesar-richtte-in-55-v-christus-slachting-aan-bi-1569159

 

[Palinurus]

Meanwhile, SOTT now also carries the story (from The Guardian, UK):

http://www.sott.net/article/308444-Julius-Caesar-battlefield-unearthed-in-southern-Netherlands

 

[Laura]

Meanwhile, SOTT now also carries the story (from The Guardian, UK):

http://www.sott.net/article/308444-Julius-Caesar-battlefield-unearthed-in-southern-Netherlands

Somebody needs to add comments to truthify it. Maybe Oxajil's text?

 

[Beau]

Meanwhile, SOTT now also carries the story (from The Guardian, UK):

http://www.sott.net/article/308444-Julius-Caesar-battlefield-unearthed-in-southern-Netherlands

Somebody needs to add comments to truthify it. Maybe Oxajil's text?

I added Oxajil's post as a comment.