Was Julius Caesar the real Jesus Christ?

whitecoast

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Thanks for the book recommendation AI. I was wondering, have you read the Philokhalia? It's an anthology of Eastern Orthodox Christian monastic philosophy. I'm reading an abridged version of it right now, and I must say it has a very different flavor from the Christianity that has descended from the Roman Church. There's much less emphasis placed on the notion that the Jesus' death on the cross was a form of substitution, and a lot more emphasis placed on the notion that the goal of spiritual practice is refining the heart and intellect to live as Christ has, and achieve Theosis, or the deification of the mind and body. I'm reading an abridged version, and it spurns me to try and get a copy of the whole thing. I'll try and find some quotes to share from it later on. Consistent throughout it is the notion that "God became Man so men could become like gods". Which in more concrete terms I interpret as "the higher information field has created a material world with which it is able to interface, inform, and cultivate so that the awareness of those forms may in turn grow to participate in the higher realities as equals with it someday." (hope I didn't butcher it).

Anyway the idea of using Christ an example by which to live definitely receives new dimensions with the Caesar aspect, and how much biographical information we have on him. Even the small anecdotes, a la Samenow, show just how no act, thought, or behavior is too insignificant for Virtue to leave its mark on it, and so serve as an example of how to live.
 

Approaching Infinity

Administrator
Administrator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
whitecoast said:
Thanks for the book recommendation AI. I was wondering, have you read the Philokhalia? It's an anthology of Eastern Orthodox Christian monastic philosophy. I'm reading an abridged version of it right now, and I must say it has a very different flavor from the Christianity that has descended from the Roman Church. There's much less emphasis placed on the notion that the Jesus' death on the cross was a form of substitution, and a lot more emphasis placed on the notion that the goal of spiritual practice is refining the heart and intellect to live as Christ has, and achieve Theosis, or the deification of the mind and body. I'm reading an abridged version, and it spurns me to try and get a copy of the whole thing. I'll try and find some quotes to share from it later on. Consistent throughout it is the notion that "God became Man so men could become like gods". Which in more concrete terms I interpret as "the higher information field has created a material world with which it is able to interface, inform, and cultivate so that the awareness of those forms may in turn grow to participate in the higher realities as equals with it someday." (hope I didn't butcher it).

Anyway the idea of using Christ an example by which to live definitely receives new dimensions with the Caesar aspect, and how much biographical information we have on him. Even the small anecdotes, a la Samenow, show just how no act, thought, or behavior is too insignificant for Virtue to leave its mark on it, and so serve as an example of how to live.
I haven't read it, but it sounds interesting. Yeah, there's not too much emphasis on the imitation of Christ in the West. That last bit was very well put - thanks for that!
 

kenlee

SuperModerator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
whitecoast said:
Consistent throughout it is the notion that "God became Man so men could become like gods". Which in more concrete terms I interpret as "the higher information field has created a material world with which it is able to interface, inform, and cultivate so that the awareness of those forms may in turn grow to participate in the higher realities as equals with it someday."
This is a very good observation and I'd just like to expand on it just a little bit (while these thoughts are still fresh in my mind) although I don't wish to derail this thread which is not about physics but it's about Caesar. I always thought that we basically live in a digital unverse that basically blinks on and off where the universe of matter/energy shares itself with the non material information realm so that the non material information field interleaves and transmits itself from the highest levels of material reality to the lowest giving the universe form. In other words the form and formless worlds sharing the universe via 'on' and 'off.' Not sure how accurate my above statement is though.

But I wonder. If we look at quantum forces as holding matter together and we view matter/energy as the "stuff" of the universe that gets in-formed by information then is there a non material "stuff" of the non material universe? I could only think of the universe of matter/energy as having it's basis/genesis in relationships but what holds the relationships together? Is there a non material "stuff" that is the basis of relationships that holds the relationships together thru which the existing universe can take form? Maybe this "stuff of relationships" is the information field itself that holds the universe of relationships together?

Quick example: I picture in my mind a circle. What holds the relationships together in my mentally envisioned circle that makes it a circle such as, for example, pi where there is a numerical relationship between the circles diameter and circumference? Could it be information that, in a matter of speaking, is the "stuff" that holds the relationships of the circle together making it a circle? Well, FWIW. I don't know, just thinking aloud here but I found this (below) that interested me that gives an interpretation of Wheeler's digital universe of "it from bit."

-https://plus.maths.org/content/it-bit
Wheeler's "it from bit" concept implies that physics, particularly quantum physics, isn't really about reality, but just our best description of what we observe. There is no "quantum world", just the best description we have of how things will appear to us. As Niels Bohr, one of the founders of quantum theory, said:"It is wrong to think that the task of physics is to find out how Nature is. Physics concerns what we can say about Nature."

Anton Zeilinger, Director of the Institue for Quantum Optics and Quantum Information, explains: "My interpretation [of "it from bit"] is that in order to define reality, one has to take into account the role of information: mainly the fact that whatever we do in science is based on information which we receive by whatever means."

But can we go one step further? Can we say reality is information, that they are one and the same? Zeilinger thinks not: "No, we [need] both concepts. But the distinction between the two is very difficult on a rigorous basis, and maybe that tells us something." Instead, we need to think of reality and information together, with one influencing the other, both remaining consistent with each other.

Perhaps the answer will follow Einstein's great insight from one century ago when he showed that you can't make a distinction between space and time, instead they are instances of a broader concept: spacetime. In a similar way, perhaps we need a new concept that encompasses both reality and information, rather than focusing on distinguishing between them.
 

John G

Dagobah Resident
kenlee said:
This is a very good observation and I'd just like to expand on it just a little bit (while these thoughts are still fresh in my mind) although I don't wish to derail this thread which is not about physics but it's about Caesar. I always thought that we basically live in a digital unverse that basically blinks on and off where the universe of matter/energy shares itself with the non material information realm so that the non material information field interleaves and transmits itself from the highest levels of material reality to the lowest giving the universe form. In other words the form and formless worlds sharing the universe via 'on' and 'off.' Not sure how accurate my above statement is though...

Well, FWIW. I don't know, just thinking aloud here but I found this (below) that interested me that gives an interpretation of Wheeler's digital universe of "it from bit."

-https://plus.maths.org/content/it-bit

...Anton Zeilinger, Director of the Institue for Quantum Optics and Quantum Information, explains: "My interpretation [of "it from bit"] is that in order to define reality, one has to take into account the role of information: mainly the fact that whatever we do in science is based on information which we receive by whatever means."

But can we go one step further? Can we say reality is information, that they are one and the same? Zeilinger thinks not: "No, we [need] both concepts. But the distinction between the two is very difficult on a rigorous basis, and maybe that tells us something." Instead, we need to think of reality and information together, with one influencing the other, both remaining consistent with each other...


You can of course move this physics discussion to another topic if it ends up too long. There is Clifford algebra for information (that Ark related to a Cs comment about free algebra) and there is group theory math for matter/energy like the conformal group Ark uses for gravity. One can derive group theory from Clifford algebra. Ark's conformal group comes from the Cl(6) Clifford algebra bivectors. It's like low energy third density group theory for matter/energy is a symmetry broken version of the highest energy 7th density information. It's like when you dial the energy way up, you no longer have energy as we know it, you have just information for 7th density and even for our low energy 3rd density matter, you still have math derived from information theory math.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_physics

In physics and cosmology, digital physics (also referred to as digital ontology or digital philosophy) is a collection of theoretical perspectives based on the premise that the universe is describable by information. According to this theory, the universe can be conceived of as either the output of a deterministic or probabilistic computer program, a vast, digital computation device, or mathematically isomorphic to such a device.

The operations of computers must be compatible with the principles of information theory, statistical thermodynamics, and quantum mechanics. In 1957, a link among these fields was proposed by Edwin Jaynes.[2] He elaborated an interpretation of probability theory as generalized Aristotelian logic, a view linking fundamental physics with digital computers, because these are designed to implement the operations of classical logic and, equivalently, of Boolean algebra.[3]

The hypothesis that the universe is a digital computer was proposed by Konrad Zuse in his book Rechnender Raum (translated into English as Calculating Space). The term digital physics was[citation needed] employed by Edward Fredkin, who later came to prefer the term digital philosophy.[4] Others who have modeled the universe as a giant computer include Stephen Wolfram,[5] Juergen Schmidhuber,[1] and Nobel laureate Gerard 't Hooft.[6][not in citation given] These authors hold that the probabilistic nature of quantum physics is not necessarily incompatible with the notion of computability. Quantum versions of digital physics have recently been proposed by Seth Lloyd[7] and Paola Zizzi.[8]

Related ideas include Carl Friedrich von Weizsäcker's binary theory of ur-alternatives, pancomputationalism, computational universe theory, John Archibald Wheeler's "It from bit", and Max Tegmark's ultimate ensemble.

Digital physics suggests that there exists, at least in principle, a program for a universal computer that computes the evolution of the universe. The computer could be, for example, a huge cellular automaton (Zuse 1967[1][9])...
Clifford algebra relates to cellular automata too.
 

JGeropoulas

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
For those not on the cutting edge of tech gadgetry, Alexa is an interactive device connected to the web which answers it's owner's requests for information (e.g. Alexa is it going to rain today?"). It also follows commands related to connected devices (e.g. "Alexa cut on the lights"). Two guys recently posted a video on Facebook of them grilling Alexa for answers to demonstrate the liberal bias in her programming. Related to this thread, one really stood out. When asked who Jesus Christ was, Alexa said he was a fictional character. When asked who Mohammad was, Alexa said he was a great prophet.

https://www.facebook.com/vin.poston/posts/1703627366373122
 

whitecoast

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
I just finished a GREAT little book on Caesar. Published last year, it's called "The Leadership Genius of Julius Caesar: Modern Lessons from the Man Who Built an Empire", by Phillip Barlag. While I wouldn't call it the best book on Caesar, I think it just might be my favorite. It is short (110 pages), easy to read, and gushes with love for the greatest man who ever lived. To give you an idea of the tone, here are the final paragraphs:
I read this book in a couple of free afternoons. It did have some interesting anecdotes about Caesar in it, and the fact that it was written from a business perspective did add a different dimension of interpretation of Caesar's character. I agree it's not the best book out there on Caesar, and personally I'm not sure it was worth my time, but it could be a good read for someone who doesn't know much about the guy and just enjoys amateur history.
 

Palinurus

The Living Force
Source (Dutch only): https://historiek.net/gezichtsreconstructie-julius-caesar/80784/

Translation:
'That's what Julius Caesar looked like'.

Reconstruction of the face of the world-famous general

Editorial report - 22 June 2018 - 20:02

The Rijksmuseum van Oudheden (Dutch National Museum of Antiquities) has had a facial reconstruction done of Julius Caesar. According to the museum, the world-famous general was less heroic in appearance than expected: Caesar was bald-ish and had a cranial defect as a result of problems at birth.

Furthermore, he was less successful than often thought in terms of military victories and probably suffered his greatest defeat at Maastricht. This comes forward from new research, which shows that Caesar waged a significant part of his Gallic War in the Low Countries. Archaeologist Tom Buijtendorp made those findings during his research into the role of Caesar in the Low Countries. Next week he will publish a new book about his research. Archaeologist and physical anthropologist Maja d'Hollosy made a 'new' face for Caesar based on Buijtendorps work and a marble Caesar bust, among others. The RMO:

"Buijtendorps research literally gives Julius Caesar a new face. In the lifelike
facial reconstruction of the general, the skull shape and hair style differ
from the usual images."


On several famous busts Caesar has a fairly lush hairstyle. However, these images were often made after the death of the general and were not true to reality. According to Buijtendorp, medical research shows that a marble statue in Turin offers the most faithful image of Caesar, on which even a skull abnormality is indicated, which must have been the result of a difficult birth. Related to this is a contemporary coin portrait that complements the image.


Reconstruction of the face of Julius Caesar, made by Maja d'Hollosy (Photo: RMO)

Difficult birth

According to Buijtendorp, Caesar's head shows the visible consequences of a difficult birth, a new fact in Caesar's biography. Thanks to the skull anomaly, Buijtendorp was able to identify the most authentic Caesar portrait, which is very different from the marble Caesar busts often shown. Archaeologist and physical anthropologist Maja D'Hollosy combined the results of Buijtendorps research with one of the oldest Caesar portraits from the collection of the Rijksmuseum van Oudheden.

According to Buijtendorp, the reconstruction of Caesar's portrait helps to realize that we have to let go of the established image of Caesar.

"The new version is not an absolute truth either, but it does offer a credible alternative to the established image."

Buijtendorps research for Caesar in de Lage Landen ('Caesar in the Low Countries') is based on recently excavated camps from Caesar's time, analysis of indigenous gold coins, geographical analyses and a revaluation of Caesar's own statistics.

Much more to the North

While it has long been assumed that Caesar did not or hardly ever enter the Low Countries, recent discoveries and analyses indicate that he spent about half of his campaign time in the North with major setbacks.

"The probable presence in Maastricht also makes it more likely that Caesar moved from there
to the north in 55 BC and massacred people to the south-west of Nijmegen, on the spot where
skeletons and weapons from that time were dredged up from an old Maas bed. In Rome even,
he was accused in the Senate of violating the law of war."


To the east of Luxembourg, three camps from the Caesar era have already been found since 2010, which is much more northerly than forts from the Caesar era that are known to date.

During the Gallic War Caesar and his army units were, according to the researcher, stationed much more northerly than previously thought. The RMO:

"There are strong indications that a fortress near Maastricht in 54 and 53 BC served both as a camp
and a logistics center for Caesar's army. This is reflected, among other things, in an analysis of
indigenous gold coins and the recently observed extent of the stronghold."


It is well known that Caesar personally roamed the camp he mentioned and that his army suffered the greatest defeat of the Gallic War there. Caesar's statistics indicate that about half of his fallen soldiers died in the north. Buijtendorps research accelerated when it became known that the shoe nails of Caesar's soldiers had a unique shape. As a result, three northern camps have already been linked to Caesar, and there is hope for new discoveries, for which the book, written in the style of a travel guide, indicates several potential sites of camps and battlefields.

Buijtendorp underlines that his research is only the beginning.

"Now that the indications are piling up that Caesar has been in the Low Countries, we have
an enormous amount of catching up to do. The research presented will hopefully provide a basis
for well-focused follow-up research to assess several matters, as much is still uncertain."


Caesar's facial reconstruction will be on display free of charge in the central hall of the Rijksmuseum van Oudheden (Leiden) in the coming months.

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator
 

Laura

Administrator
Administrator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
Unfortunately, the image they created doesn't even look like the Turin (Tusculum) bust. The Arles bust is much more likely to be Caesar (see below). It is unlikely that Caesar's head was deformed or Cicero would definitely have mentioned it because he never missed a chance to say something disparaging about Caesar in his private correspondence.



According to this study, https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1206/1206.4866.pdf there is much more agreement between the Arles bust and the Farnese bust than between the Arles bust and the Tusculum bust. See also: https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1304/1304.1972.pdf This latter link gives good images of many of the known busts and it seems that there is a very good match with the Torlonia bust as well.



It really irritates me when idiots like these come along and make claims that are completely unfounded historically speaking. And they do it just to cast Caesar in a bad light. Methinks their study/model is a BUST.
 

c.a.

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
This article tends to berate his accompaniments. But the comments bare wittiness to his glory and tactile military achievements.
! IMHO I think, that this was another attempted character assassination of a True Warrior. "Hail, Caesar"

Julius Caesar falls from his pedestal: "Less heroic in appearance and victories than imagined"
[SIZE=3]https://www.hln.be/wetenschap-planeet/julius-caesar-valt-van-zijn-voetstuk-minder-heroisch-qua-uiterlijk-en-overwinningen-dan-gedacht~a3a43ca4/[/SIZE]
22 juni 2018
The Roman ruler Julius Caesar, murdered on March 15 of the year 44 BC, has a new face. Physical anthropologist Maja d'Hollosy made it for the National Museum of Antiquities in Leiden, where it is unveiled today and can still be seen for free.

The bust was the idea of archaeologist Tom Buijtendorp, whose book "Caesar in the Low Countries" was published at the same time. D'Hollosy used, among other things, his research results that have now been published. She went on for the face of Caesar further from two busts, one from Leiden and one from Turin, and from coins with Caesar from his own time. Especially the head in Turin seems certain that it is made alive and reasonably realistic, says Buijtendorp. "So he has a crazy bulge on his head. A doctor said that such a thing occurs in a heavy delivery. You do not invent that as an artist. And realistic portraits were in fashion ".

The image in Leiden is very similar to that in Turin, although the most powerful man of his time lost a piece of his forehead, mouth and nose. D'Hollosy made a 3d print of the head from Leiden. There she took off the top layer and then applied a new one, using clay and silicone rubber. That way Julius got a lifelike face. "I do not let him look happy and friendly. He was a general who was about corpses, "says d'Hollosy.

Defeat

According to ancient sources he had almost black eyes and a somewhat white skin. That gave D'Hollosy him, just like pepper-and-salt-colored hair. It is not much hair, because the hair of posthumous images is made up. "He falls a bit of his pedestal now," says Buijtendorp. "He was less heroic than expected in terms of victories and looks".

He probably calls it that Caesar suffered the greatest defeat near the Limburg Sint Pietersberg. He really must have walked around there personally. "The Jekerdal is exactly right with the description given by Caesar," he says. "While it has long been assumed that Caesar did not or hardly ever came to the Low Countries, recent discoveries and analyzes indicate that he is about half of his campaign time in the north. with considerable setbacks ".

Ancient Portraits in the J. Paul Getty Museum
Volume 1 PDF The Portraits in Marble of Gaius Julius / Caesar: A Review
Johansen S. Flemming Page 17 (Link for the full view)
http://d2aohiyo3d3idm.cloudfront.net/publications/virtuallibrary/0892360712.pdf























Comparison of the Pantelleria head, found in 2006, with the Tusculum portrait of Julius Caesar c. 40-50 BCE
 
Last edited:

Vulcan59

SuperModerator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
Snippets of Caesar in the latest article at Malaga Bay - 'A for Augustus'


The Alphabet Mystery
The Julius Caesar narrative was [by definition] revitalised during the 2nd millennium because the Latin alphabet of his period didn’t include the letters “J” and “U”.
Using the Latin alphabet of the period, which lacked the letters J and U, Caesar’s name would be rendered GAIVS IVLIVS CAESAR; the form CAIVS is also attested, using the older Roman representation of G by C.
The standard abbreviation was C. IVLIVS CÆSAR, reflecting the older spelling.
(The letterform Æ is a ligature of the letters A and E, and is often used in Latin inscriptions to save space.)
Julius Caesar - Wikipedia

Latin alphabet - Wikipedia
It’s likely the revitalised “Julius” emerged [sometime] after the late 14th century.
 

mkrnhr

SuperModerator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
I sometimes have trouble following T. Cullin's exposition even if he has from time to time some very interesting insights about how messed up is our "understanding" of the past and how chronologies are built. For instance in this article he talks about Iulius meaning seventh (month) but nothing says that this is what it meant before the Julian calendar. We already have the months of September (and Septimus) for 7 and October (and Octavus) for 8. The connection between the Augustus and Augurii may be plausible given the religious/political culture of those times. Ceasar was himself a religious figure in Rome and after his deification, it kind of makes sense that imperial titles would be Kaisar and Augustus as representations of "god and the son of god". OSIT
 
Top Bottom