Alcohol

[Gaby]

Yeah, your liver needs to function as smoothly as possible in order to ketoadapt. If the liver suffers, ketone production suffers.

Alcohol comes from sugar and its transformation requires the assistance of the fungi yeast. Consider this from Buzz: The Science and Lore of Alcohol and Caffeine (Braun, 1997):

"The process starts with glucose, which is the sugar both humans and yeast use to power their bodies. Like humans, yeast cells prefer to burn their glucose with oxygen to produce energy. But yeast cells sometimes find themselves in situations where oxygen is scarce - for instance, when they are trapped in the bottom of huge vats of grape juice. [...]

The details of that process are interesting in their own right, but all we're really concerned with here are those two shards remaining after the glucose is finally split. Those shards are molecules of ethanol.

The birth of alcohol via this inefficient splitting of glucose has one very salient consequence for humans: most of the chemical energy of the original glucose molecule remains bound up in the ethanol fragments. That energy equals calorics: about seven per gram - which works out to about a hundred calories in a standard drink from the alcohol alone.

Alcohol, in other words, is no diet drink.

Alcohol's origins also explain some facts about the alcohol content of some common drinks. Yeast cells struggling to survive under suffocating conditions quickly excrete the ethanol fragments because they are basically poisonous. Ethanol interferes with many of the reactions vital to the life of a cell. As a result, yeasts excrete ethanol, which slowly builds up in the surrounding liquid - exactly where the brewer or vintner wants it. Given an adequate amount of glucose, the ethanol content of a fermenting liquid rises until it reaches about 12 percent. At this point, it starts to back up inside the yeast cells because it can no longer diffuse across the cell wall. Unable to dispose of the poisonous waste, the yeasts shut down and become dormant.

All activity stops, including the production of new ethanol. This is the reason that most table wines have roughly a 12 percent alcohol content: that's as high as it can go before the yeasts throw in the towel. Some wines can achieve slightly higher values if they are unusually rich in glucose, but the only way to get significantly higher ethanol levels is by distillation."

And here's some perspective about the reputed benefits associated with moderate alcohol drinking, also from Buzz:

"With all this evidence suggesting that moderate consumption of wine - and probably other forms of alcohol as well - confers protection against heart disease, why isn't everyone reaching for their favorite bottle of cabernet? There are several reasons.

The French, while enjoying their much reduced rates of heart disease, develop liver disease at a rate that is roughly twice that of Americans (Dolnick 1990). In addition to taxing the liver, moderate drinking has been associated with a slightly increased risk of breast cancer and cancer of the bowel. And, of course, even a single shot of liquor consumed quickly can produce transient blood alcohol levels high enough to reduce reaction times and impair coordination, thus increasing the risk of accidents.

Second, advising abstainers to begin drinking could lead to increased alcoholism because it is not yet possible to predict who will succumb to alcohol's addictive potential. Other methods, such as losing weight and exercising, offer even greater benefits and have fewer associated risks."

 

[Search]

I'm curious about alcohol in ketosis. There are vines that contain a little of carbs, for exmple there are white dry vines that contain appr. 4gr of carbs per 1 littre. How do you think, whould it ruin ketosis if you drink some galass of such vine?

There's some evidence that small amounts of alcohol can help ketosis. The problem comes from it's effect on the liver and brain.

Interesting, how it can help?
What I know from my own experience that Vitamin C realy helps after alcohol consumption. Moderate consumption help to consentrate, but there is the a thin line between moderate consumption and consuption that would bring the opposite to consentration effect. Also I used to smoke maybe at least 2 times more or need some really strong tobacco.

 

[Mr. Premise]

I'm curious about alcohol in ketosis. There are vines that contain a little of carbs, for exmple there are white dry vines that contain appr. 4gr of carbs per 1 littre. How do you think, whould it ruin ketosis if you drink some galass of such vine?

There's some evidence that small amounts of alcohol can help ketosis. The problem comes from it's effect on the liver and brain.

Interesting, how it can help?
What I know from my own experience that Vitamin C realy helps after alcohol consumption. Moderate consumption help to consentrate, but there is the a thin line between moderate consumption and consuption that would bring the opposite to consentration effect. Also I used to smoke maybe at least 2 times more or need some really strong tobacco.

As to how it could help ketosis, the reviews are mixed. I read a paper last year claiming it did, I will see if I can find it. Other sources say, while it's being processed by the liver that it interrupts the production of ketones. I did read that it doesn't get metabolized into sugar which is good. I believe it is metabolized into acetones. Personally, I would avoid alcohol altogether, regardless of its effect on ketosis. The effects on the liver, brain, and psychology are enough to avoid it. When the liver is busy metabolizing alcohol, it's isn't available to process other toxins.

From Medicine.net:

The effects that alcohol has on your health start with how it's metabolized. Once alcohol is in your system, your body makes metabolizing it a priority. That means that it will stop metabolizing anything else in order to first get the alcohol metabolized. The reason for this is because unlike protein, carbohydrates, and fat, there is nowhere for alcohol to be stored in our body so it has be metabolized first....

Your liver is the primary site for alcohol metabolism; this is why you can have liver problems from consuming too much alcohol. Alcohol is detoxified and removed from the blood through a process called oxidation. Oxidation prevents the alcohol from accumulating and destroying cells and organs. A healthy liver oxidizes pure ethanol at the rate of about ¼ to ⅓ of an ounce per hour, which is less than 1 ounce of hard liquor.

As far as the psychological effect, the immediate effect is to let your programs run free. Which is not good for doing the work, although Gurdjieff used that to get an idea of his student's programs. Then you have the toxic after effects the next day, or at my age two days :) Gives a feeling similar to brain inflammation, but I don't know if it actually causes brain inflammation, but I wouldn't be surprised.

 

[Search]

As to how it could help ketosis, the reviews are mixed. I read a paper last year claiming it did, I will see if I can find it. Other sources say, while it's being processed by the liver that it interrupts the production of ketones. I did read that it doesn't get metabolized into sugar which is good. I believe it is metabolized into acetones. Personally, I would avoid alcohol altogether, regardless of its effect on ketosis. The effects on the liver, brain, and psychology are enough to avoid it. When the liver is busy metabolizing alcohol, it's isn't available to process other toxins.

From Medicine.net:

The effects that alcohol has on your health start with how it's metabolized. Once alcohol is in your system, your body makes metabolizing it a priority. That means that it will stop metabolizing anything else in order to first get the alcohol metabolized. The reason for this is because unlike protein, carbohydrates, and fat, there is nowhere for alcohol to be stored in our body so it has be metabolized first....

Your liver is the primary site for alcohol metabolism; this is why you can have liver problems from consuming too much alcohol. Alcohol is detoxified and removed from the blood through a process called oxidation. Oxidation prevents the alcohol from accumulating and destroying cells and organs. A healthy liver oxidizes pure ethanol at the rate of about ¼ to ⅓ of an ounce per hour, which is less than 1 ounce of hard liquor.

As far as the psychological effect, the immediate effect is to let your programs run free. Which is not good for doing the work, although Gurdjieff used that to get an idea of his student's programs. Then you have the toxic after effects the next day, or at my age two days :) Gives a feeling similar to brain inflammation, but I don't know if it actually causes brain inflammation, but I wouldn't be surprised.

I used to have a strong feeling of guilty when i consume alcohol on ketosis (usually it was vine). After consuming it I usually made fasting or sami-fasting. I'm glad i understand more alcohol effects right now. Thanks Gaby and Mr. Premise. I had a really strong program that refers to the alcohol consumption. After 3-4 years of drinking alcohol almost every day (i drank it when i had money, when i didn't have money i try to find out where i can get it) When I start changing my diet - I can say that I almost didn't drink at all, according to what i did before. I drank several times a year, however the program is still here. As to Gurdjieff, i think he was right in his decision, although maybe it didn't work to everyone...
What i can say is that maybe i need vine sometimes, it is easier to speak with people (in hard situation) and easier to express what i feel and think. I understand that i sacrifice my health in some way, however i save my nerves (because I'm very shy, although it is much more easier to express myself here on the forum). It is only my thoughts, thanks for a feedback, I really need it.

 

[Chad]

Of all the threads that i should probably add my voice to this is the one...! (apologies this is long - but it's just to share my experience)

Reading through the quiz provided, i would say that: 3. Nonalcoholic Hypoglycemic Chemistry (May Mistakenly Be Labeled Alcoholic - is probably closest to my experience. I get sleepy after my a few drinks and, more so now than ever, the sugar (?) rush i get when finally in bed means i am completely unable to sleep. It literally feels as though my body is processing the alcohol and so sleep escapes me. Because of the work on the forum, i stopped drinking in May 2014. But i'll get to that.

My father was a raging alcoholic probably for his whole life. His parents were abusive alcoholics, and so the cycle continued. That he was in the army i think, was the only thing that stopped him spiraling into destructive behaviour sooner.

In my opinion, since we come from England, and a region which was devastated by the moving of industry (mining, cotton mills etc..), as well as a tradition of using alcohol as a way to relax, to bond, my attitude to drinking is quite skewed. Not to mention the culture around drinking which was born of this: drinking to oblivion. I had a few role models who demonstrated that drinking can be done in moderation.

My brother became an alcoholic in many ways, at weekends he would basically go out looking for fights (a common pastime around here). And my mother - who i currently live with - drinks a bottle of brandy a week, she's a silly drunk, and denies that she is affected at all.

As a child i lied and said that i couldn't drink - to avoid the peer pressure! - i said i was allergic to wheat... ;) but i could eat bread due to the way it was processed. Quite inventive for an 11/12 year old. So i resisted til highschool (15ish?) and then on my first few experiences, i realised how fun it was to be drunk. A bit like operating a computer game character. You're body was all floppy and brain fuzzy and people were so easy going and happy and adventurous. And loud; i come from a loud family, so this was comfortable.

So, though i never really liked the taste of alcohol, i soon developed one. I even got interested in beer! I drank from 16, and from 17 i was drinking most Saturdays at the clubs. I loved to dance and though i'm not so shy, it did help things along.

Then from 19 i moved to the city and began to party hard 4 nights a week, and was hungover at work, in some way, 70% of the time. This interfered with work, but it wasn't so much the alcohol, it was my resistance to 'giving up' my life, my fun, for a job. I realised at the time the trade off i was making, ie. sabotaging my professional life/ability to survive. The problem is, when you don't believe in the professional life, it's not much of a trade, more like an obligation you try your best to outwit.

I am of the opinion the stress of working in a city, the demands of the jobs being higher, stress of commuting and cost of living, people will do anything for a release, and a great many people have at least 1 glass a night. I often went to friends for dinner and a bottle each was no problem. I didn't start drinking alone till i was like 28 - and this was because i had stopped going out, was transitioning from my old life, and needed something to unwind. But i realised that without the chaos of other people drinking, 2 drinks at most was sufficient, and it was strange how much it effected/debilitated me.

So after at least 6+ years of debauchery and jeopardizing pretty much every job i had, I knew that my lifestyle was because i was so disillusioned, i didn't realise till later that some of that hedonism/nihilism was because i had believed the lies that our reality is the way it is presented. Also, my mother being obsessed with celebrity culture encouraged it as a way 'in' to something more, i agreed.

So i think i abused my body for 2 reasons: because i had been physically and mentally abused, and so since the most important people in my life felt my body was worth little, perhaps it wasn't. But also because the culture of death perpetuated by the mainstream says that your body is a dead machine to be supplemented, rather than a living vehicle. I had also begun to equate the struggle of hangovers with the 'struggle' in life; and boy was i a fighter! I thought that someone who could make it through the day whilst so poisoned was a strong person indeed. The sacrifice for ones passion and all that...

What i was missing was any reasonable narrative for the world. It was so full of hypocrisy that i decided to take it to it's limits.

I would still feel the 'need' to drink at least one were i to go to a wedding or a gathering of people; mainly because i find it so mind numbing. Of course this anxiety is no one elses problem but my own, and even if these events are stiffing, it's still my problem! So i just don't go. I had 2 drinks at a friends birthday in April and in May 3 glasses of champagne with a friend. I resisted beer at lunch and only indulged in the champagne because i knew it would be a one off; but i still felt the effects all day and all night.

I don't drink now and don't think i ever will, for many reasons: sleep, damage to the body, and the fact that anything over 1 and the next day my concentration is awful; i can't read. And since this is all i'm doing, drinking is out and i don't miss it. I still need to work on 'settling down' at night and my insomnia aggravates matters - this makes me want to have a shot of vodka just to sleep. Instead i take magnesium, melatonin (which apparently helps with alcohol damage to the gut?), drink herbal teas, do pipe breathing etc.. but it's definitely a work in progress. Thankfully, it's much easier now i have finally found meaning that is super substantial; thanks to the forum.

 

[herondancer]

Nothing speaks like experience itellsya. Have you checked the insomnia threads? Dr. Gaby has some great suggestions there about GABA and 5-HTP which may help your current protocol. The rest may just hinge on healing your body/brain. Stick with keto. It will get you a long wayl.

 

[RedFox]

Thanks for sharing itellsya.
You may also want to check out In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts by Gabor Mate, as he has a lot of useful information about self medicating addictions.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Realm-Hungry-Ghosts-Gabor-Mate/dp/0676977413

https://youtu.be/_KTqCmajPGk

https://youtu.be/5OghK_jSNgI

https://youtu.be/zN7G62qwOw0

 

[Chad]

Nothing speaks like experience itellsya. Have you checked the insomnia threads? Dr. Gaby has some great suggestions there about GABA and 5-HTP which may help your current protocol. The rest may just hinge on healing your body/brain. Stick with keto. It will get you a long wayl.

Thank you herondancer the insomnia thread was my next stop! Better to speak to our specialties eh? ;) I have benefited hugely from the blackout curtains, its actually the first time i've had 'proper' curtains! I appreciate the thoughtful response - it's encouraging and you are so right. Going Keto was probably #1 in balancing the dysregulation i have felt - it is essentially a continuation of the hyper-vigilance that was 'switched on' during childhood and has been on full whack ever since.

Growing up this was advantageous, it kept me safe, but now it just keeps me awake. It didn't help matters that i kept ramping it up over the years of going out. But in some ways that served a purpose, i needed to connect, and i could have chosen worse people to be around. I felt then that i had been through a bit and really need to feel free and happy, it was self medicating but actually quite considered. Foolish as well. As is learning. And although sleep has been the bane of my life, it was during those hours that i began to really question why i was acting out and so dissatisfied and - after alot of mistakes - it lead me here.

So it's like steering a ship and since i've had access to the wheel, things have been improving. It's only been maybe 6 months of being Ketogenic, and i reckon another 6 and at least the biological aspect should be dealt with. 5HTP and GABA are handy and i will probably go for another round of 5HTP when i can. It was Dr Gaby who recommended i get busy with the fat bomb and i've been an evangelist ever since :D My gut must have been wrecked. I was in serious need of fat, no doubt about that.

Thanks for sharing itellsya.
You may also want to check out In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts by Gabor Mate, as he has a lot of useful information about self medicating addictions.
_http://www.amazon.co.uk/Realm-Hungry-Ghosts-Gabor-Mate/dp/0676977413

Thankyou RedFox :) Gabor Mate has had a profound impact on me. I came across him before the forum and have watched pretty much everything that's on youtube - i'm strapped for cash so it's been a god send. But i listened to those videos whilst replying yesterday and i'll be listening to them again, so i'm glad you posted them. Not only does the guy speak from experience - working on the streets and as a case study himself - but also his delivery is so logical and reasonable and he takes into account the effect of our sick society which helps me relate.

He has actually really helped with understanding the dynamics i come from, which i am still working through, especially with my mother. Particularly some of her programs which are now mine! ;) Like her, in some ways i have a nervous disposition and am susceptible to relying on external sources for comfort/dissociation, but unlike her, i began trying to work on myself long ago. But no one made it as clear as Gabor.

Though i don't associate with anybody from my families time in the army, those i do know all come from, what are now, broken homes, with most of the fathers alcoholics. Most were fairly abusive too. And almost all of the marriages broke down following their departure from the army. My dad died of 'a leg injury that wouldn't heal' (according to my mother) within about 15 years of leaving the army. I suspect it was something along the lines of cirrhosis of the liver, compacted by a leg infection his neglected body couldn't fight.

I had read this thread a while ago, but i reread it again and it's surprising how similar our experiences have been. Everything from sleep issues to our influences to our current attitudes. And on that, i wanted to comment on whether i think it can serve a purpose.

I watched a beautiful documentary about the monks of mount Athos. On his arrival the journalist was received by a monk and given a plate of water, perhaps a biscuit, and a shot of Rakia/Raki. Now this was curious, but it got me thinking. Having lived with a Greek guy - from Crete - i learnt alot about hospitality but i wondered what purpose it served in a monastary. Obviously, as people who are at work, we aspire to need nothing more than ourselves/each other to stay centered. But for a general visitor, is this a quicker way to put him at ease?

Just like after a serious crisis OR with the gathering of large numbers of people who, overall, feel they can trust each other and yet, being human, we still harbour reservations and insecurities and a tenseness that can be easily relieved through A drink. And is this why it is favored at gatherings?

And since there are particular genetics that are more familiar with alcohol, could it relate to what has been said about certain races being more warlike, and would therefore benefit from being less guarded?

Then there's the name itself: spirits. I would assume it can leave you open to attachment - if abused - but perhaps it was traditionally used alongside other techniques. Is a few sups of something a violation of free will? Anymore than a cigarette?

One reason alcohol may be preferred after a hard day could be due not only to its GABA etc.. but also because it has a mild resetting/amnesiac effect, where you distance yourself from the day, because you kinda forget it!

Old remedies often involve a shot of whiskey or brandy - like Bachs remedies or something like hungarian 'herbal tonic' Unicum. According my friend, her mother gave it to her every time she was sick. It may be that the alcohol enables you to rest, or that's just the most effective way to tincture herbs, but i wonder if there's not more to it.

So to conclude, no i don't think drinking like our culture promotes is of any use. And that alcohol brings us to a liminal state can be used for ill - as it is now. But i wouldn't each to their own and there may be times when it can be beneficial. And for me, whilst we are working on ourselves, there may be times - like at a once in a year event - where a glass of red with dinner is welcome.

 

[focus.evans]

Thanks to all for sharing your experiences and information. I finally and thankfully realized alcohol needs to be discontinued in my life. Some of the experiences in this thread helped provide the clarity.

 

[AWERLORD]

I personaly never want to have anything to do with Alcohol. In my childhood, I seen enough of it. Constantly my father coming home drunk, picking up my drunk father from town bar, having to deal with he's drunken buddies, constantly watching him to make sure he won't leave the gas tank open or do something to burn the house. This kind of expierence tough me a good lesson, to stay away from alcohol. Even if cassiopaeans would say that alcohol is good, I would still stay away, because my childhood seen enough horrors of this substance abuse.

 

[Villival]

This is an issue I am struggling with now. Ironically, I didn't have a drink for about five years until I woke up. Because I didn't understand what was happening and because I was on an incredible information overload, I actually began to drink just to calm my brain down and because I had no one to talk to. People were acting so strangely, as I guess was I. Though I work out, I smoke, and I am currently drinking a fair amount of wine every night. I'm just not sure what to do with myself. Mentally, I got yanked in so many directions it was almost impossible to function and physically, due to the surge of energy, I was worn out and exhausted. I am working on getting strong and finding my place here on this crazy planet, again. I really need to thoughtfully ponder this whole subject. I tried repeatedly to speak to people about what was happening to me, but no dice. So, I've had to figure it all out on my own and am still there somewhat. Drinking is not the answer though. I do have much respect for my brain and one poster talked about not being able to concentrate the next day. I know that feeling well.

Somehow I feel that more live interaction between humans would help with just about all issues, including drinking. It's a conundrum for me.

 

[Turgon]

This is an issue I am struggling with now. Ironically, I didn't have a drink for about five years until I woke up. Because I didn't understand what was happening and because I was on an incredible information overload, I actually began to drink just to calm my brain down and because I had no one to talk to. People were acting so strangely, as I guess was I. Though I work out, I smoke, and I am currently drinking a fair amount of wine every night. I'm just not sure what to do with myself. Mentally, I got yanked in so many directions it was almost impossible to function and physically, due to the surge of energy, I was worn out and exhausted. I am working on getting strong and finding my place here on this crazy planet, again. I really need to thoughtfully ponder this whole subject.

Hi Villival,

I understand very well the difficulty in overcoming alcohol addiction. It always acted like a relaxant for me as well and would 'give' me temporary piece of mind for the evening until I woke up the next day and would find myself needing another drink to reach that state again. There are other ways of calming down though which you can try and see of it works. On top of some of the supplemens that can help, I find spending time in nature, exercising and finding things to laugh about helps a lot.

Somehow I feel that more live interaction between humans would help with just about all issues, including drinking. It's a conundrum for me.

It would. Often the urge to turn to addictions of any kind is essentially to fill the vacuum left by not having healthy, meaningful human interaction and connection with others. That is usually one of the best things you can do for yourself, especially if you are drinking a lot and/or by yourself - go out and talk to someone, engage in some way regardless of how difficult it might be, take the time to write a post. In the long run, practicing and doing things like that can help a lot.

 

[CNS]

Somehow I feel that more live interaction between humans would help with just about all issues, including drinking. It's a conundrum for me.

It would. Often the urge to turn to addictions of any kind is essentially to fill the vacuum left by not having healthy, meaningful human interaction and connection with others. That is usually one of the best things you can do for yourself, especially if you are drinking a lot and/or by yourself - go out and talk to someone, engage in some way regardless of how difficult it might be, take the time to write a post. In the long run, practicing and doing things like that can help a lot.

I think Turgon and Villival are right. All that I have read on addiction suggests that it stems from isolation and little healthy social interaction, ie Dr Gabor Mate's In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts. The funny thing about alcohol is that is something that people use to help socialize by giving themselves some "liquid courage", however, those tipsy and drunken interactions seem to be very fake, put on, not well remembered, and very superficial in my experience. I don't think that they in anyway ever helped me 'grow my soul', say, as opposed to a healthy, sober interaction with someone that really wants to listen, relate, and/or give helpful advice. Which, in my experience, has given me a greater feeling of love and joy than any chemical.

I would like to post this video here. It's been posted elsewhere on the forum, but I think it fits well with this discussion. It concerns mainly heroin, but I think that most addiction issues are universal.

https://youtu.be/ao8L-0nSYzg

 

[Villival]

Wow, thanks. The awakening bought a sudden and abrupt lifestyle change through losing jobs, house, etc and since I am a very sociable person (I actually like people; corny I know) it completely turned my life upside down and though I have been blessed with my polar opposite, he works a lot and mentally, I couldn't concentrate for a long time on "real life" so I got into this habit. I feel we are all important at this time and try to gain a footing with each step. You all are the best. Both very sweet.

 

[3DStudent]

I personaly never want to have anything to do with Alcohol. In my childhood, I seen enough of it. Constantly my father coming home drunk, picking up my drunk father from town bar, having to deal with he's drunken buddies, constantly watching him to make sure he won't leave the gas tank open or do something to burn the house. This kind of expierence tough me a good lesson, to stay away from alcohol. Even if cassiopaeans would say that alcohol is good, I would still stay away, because my childhood seen enough horrors of this substance abuse.

Hi AWERLORD, seeing as you are new to the forum, it is advised that new members make an introductory post in The Newbies board. You can read others' intros to get a feel for how it's done.