Astrology

[anart]

I see astrology as a tool to see programming and as a tool to find insight into how to heal wounds. Never thought of it as a way to avoid lessons or control the future.

Hi MrAnderson, we've gone over this before, but you still seem to have a misunderstanding about what programming is. Let me try to explain it another way: Astrology has to do with the date, place and time one is born. Programs are laid down from that point forward, based on a person's environment and how they react, psychologically and emotionally, to that environment. Can you see how the two are not related? Programs are not astrological. I think that you're trying to equate the two because a certain 'sign' is supposed to behave a certain way, but that really muddies the water and leads your thinking completely away from the truth about programs.

 

[Meager1]

I started studying Astrology because I figured out that I was ruled by those influences, and don't like to be ruled (at least not by such inconsiderate rulers) I thought I better study them to see if I could find a way out. I have not been able to find a way out yet, but find it very practical when I can see a certain problem I have, is mirrored (don't know if it's the right word to use) by a hard transit, that I can then see when it will be over. That way I can plan better, and it also helps me, just seeing that I'm under influence, so I don't loose my mind thinking I have gone mad.
Like knowing how hormones work, can help one coping with the emotional effect of hormones.

Maybe it would help to think of it this way:
"It must be remembered that symbols (signs) and, or even corresponding constellations don't have power.

They were instead intended to model wisdom about the character of each cycle based
on the cyclic nature of reality. The influences of Babylonian and western magical thinking for instance, completely confounded the intended meaning and purpose of the zodiac.
In other words, the positions of the faraway stars don't cause things to happen, because they would occur without those certain stars.

In the same way that a calendar doesn't cause winter, neither does the human perception of star patterns in the sky.
They merely help to keep track of when each season comes around next, so we can prepare for it.

In 204 B.C.E., a number of unimaginable events took place in the heavens, causing the Romans to become terrified, at best, and completely hysterical, at worst.
Some of those events included the sky appearing to be on fire and two moons colliding, with the pieces of one of those moons falling to the Earth, where they became known as sacred stones.

Other sacred stones exist, which are not pieces of meteorites, and they include the objects known as menhirs and monoliths. In Pagan times, it was believed that the power of the Great Earth Mother was contained within each and every sacred stone, and that a priestess could connect with that energy by simply caressing the stone while she was praying to the Goddess."

[So, maybe, it could have more to do with observing certain "signs" in the sky, while at the same time closely observing the earth signs.. and what`s happening around us, in the here and now and what "that" is telling us, in combination to whatever the stars or planets are doing?

In other words, if the earth is the interface, the crossroads, or receiver of this sort of information, then the earth itself and all life on it, "should be" intercepting the very thing the stars are potentially modeling, at the same "time".
And we should be aware of the possible ramifications of those signs, simply by observing what`s happening on the earth, around us.

Does that make sense?]

"Far too many people think the current house of the zodiac actually causes things to happen, instead of merely helping to track when things of the "symbolized" character, are likely to happen.
This same confused perception is behind the expectation that the Mayan calendar date of 12/21/2012 and the so called "galactic alignment" will cause disaster.
The actual intent was to "mark" a time period that would be characterized by great change.
Once again, the stars don't cause things to happen, their use is a way to track, record, and predict.
To any who haven't already grasped it, that long expected time of upheaval and change is currently in progress, right on time...!"

 

[Miss.K]

I started studying Astrology because I figured out that I was ruled by those influences, and don't like to be ruled (at least not by such inconsiderate rulers) I thought I better study them to see if I could find a way out. I have not been able to find a way out yet, but find it very practical when I can see a certain problem I have, is mirrored (don't know if it's the right word to use) by a hard transit, that I can then see when it will be over. That way I can plan better, and it also helps me, just seeing that I'm under influence, so I don't loose my mind thinking I have gone mad.
Like knowing how hormones work, can help one coping with the emotional effect of hormones.

Maybe it would help to think of it this way:
"It must be remembered that symbols (signs) and, or even corresponding constellations don't have power.

[/quote]

I should clarify, I don't think that the planets rule events any more than a watch rule time, I find that it is a tool to read events, just like a watch is a tool to read time, I don't worship the watch, but as long as I live in this world where time happens, I find it practical to use watches. And I find it practical to use astrology as long as I live in a world where "events" happen.

So as I have observed that astrology does tell when events happen, from basically watching what happens in life, and then seeing what was going on in the chart, and seeing how the archetypal story goes, and being pretty surprised of how archetypal events are, and how they were always portrayed in the chart, even knowing that the planets are far away (size doesn't always matter),
and the chart is a 2d drawing of a 3d sky, thus not accurate, and the zodiac has moved, and also the deciding that aspects matter why would they matter?? , and a lot of other cons...It still does tell the archetypal story of events as far as I can see, and I have thought a lot about if I was deceiving myself, and experimented with it, tried to prove it wrong and so.
And have come to the conclusion that if I'm deceiving my self, I really must be an amazing trickster.

I don't want to replace this The Work with it, but I would find it very interesting to test along with intelligent people who are aiming for objective viewing of subjects, and as this is such a place, I'm trying to find out what is the reason behind the caution against it here, as I want to understand, as things don't make much sense to me before I understand.


:) does that make sense?

 

[Miss.K]

The way I see it is that if the horoscope shows the events, as it does unless I'm really good at fooling myself, then there must be something predestined about events.

As we have free will, and we live in a universe where duality is law, -isn't there something about that?
Then the other end of the pole of free will would be fate right?

So I have come to see it like the horoscope can be used to tell fate, but it can't be used to tell free will.
So let's say fate is the rain in your holiday, your free will is how to deal with the rainy holiday,

the free will radically changes the experience of fate, -some people get angry and have a bad holiday because it rains, and other people find great rain activities.
but you can't decide whether or not it's going to rain.

the use of astrology is like a weather report that tells me if it's going to rain, and unless one is compulsive in some way, frantically keeping checking the weather report (this have been known to happen at times ) , and thus forgetting to spend time doing whatever one have to do with ones free will, I just see it practical to know whether to expect rain in my holiday or not.

-Or the fate is like the body one is born with (also shown in the birth chart BTW) and by applying free will (like porkchops ;) ), one can alter the body, but still there is certain limits to how much one can alter the body one are born with, and the same seems to me to be the case with fate.
-like if you are born without legs you can't grow new legs, but by applying free will you can still enter the Olympics in wheelchair race.

So it is not to believe in fate, but more to better overview what fate has in store, so that one can work with fate, same way as one works better with ones own physical body, when one understands how it works.

Hm and this I see as practical

 

[truth seeker]

I should clarify, I don't think that the planets rule events any more than a watch rule time, I find that it is a tool to read events, just like a watch is a tool to read time, I don't worship the watch, but as long as I live in this world where time happens, I find it practical to use watches. And I find it practical to use astrology as long as I live in a world where "events" happen.

Can you say what it is about astrology that you "like"? In other words, what does it add to your life - to how it is you see yourself? What do you think astrology says about you?

... I have thought a lot about if I was deceiving myself, and experimented with it, tried to prove it wrong and so.
And have come to the conclusion that if I'm deceiving my self, I really must be an amazing trickster.

Absolutely! We all are and tend to view ourselves and everything else in terms of what we "like" and "don't like". If you haven't read them yet, I'd suggest the books on narcissistic wounding - we have all been wounded in this manner. Many here have found the books to be helpful in learning more about ourselves and why we move through the world as we do. In Search of the Miraculous is extremely helpful as well.

I don't want to replace this The Work with it, but I would find it very interesting to test along with intelligent people who are aiming for objective viewing of subjects, and as this is such a place, I'm trying to find out what is the reason behind the caution against it here, as I want to understand, as things don't make much sense to me before I understand.

Are you viewing this subject objectively and if so, how do you know?

edit: added sentence

 

[ziggystarlust]

Thank you Laura for all you have given, thank you for your time, it means a LOT!
I read that you were feeling low earlier, and hope you are feeling better.

I have little time to read, but lot of time to think, as my job requires my hands and eyes, and most of my waken hours, but leaves quite a lot of space to think still. So please forgive me if I should have been able to figure this out of my own, by studying.
I have been pondering this for a while, and can't make sense of it.

(I hope it is not stupid questions.)


Is it that the future is open, and it makes one fixed on certain outcomes that is the reason for the caution against using astrology?

If not could you please specify what the danger is?

[/quote]

There is a fair amount of information on this site and the Wave Series regarding Astrology. It seems like a good thing to learn if one is so inclined. However you chose to study this existence, after all, are your lessons. Since you are aware of the "fixation" problem, or possibility, then it is likely not going to be one. Here's an interesting quote form Chapter 32 of the Wave Series...

"Q: (L) OK, I want to ask about the experience I had the other night – I had what seemed to be an OOBE the other night. Was I actually having one?

A: Was an “all-intensive ooze” of the solar realm.

Q: (L) OK, what is an “all-intensive ooze” of the solar realm?

A: Realms are compartmentalized at graduated levels, like everything else. The root basis of the study of astrology is the “unified entity realm,” which relates to the effect that local cosmic bodies have upon the body and soul of third density beings in any given locator.

Q: (L) So, what does this mean in terms of what I experienced? I felt that I was moving in and out of my body over and over, sort of like doing an exercise.

A: Solar activity occurring when your experience took place was such that, based on your “solar return,” had the effect of partially separating your soul from your body. Now, just for fun, why not check your chart for that day, and see if the aspects were a little more favorable for expiration of the body potential than usual?"

Then there is the thing with the 35353 code relating to Aquarius and Gemini---probably chaprter 33. Haven't looked for that yet.

Seems like a good idea to study Astrology to me. And there is also the potential, if you are psychically inclined, to use Astrology like Tarot. or Runes or I Ching sticks. Imagine the ability to see your charts, to know what the books say, but to know more by intuitively getting the key points as they relate to you. That would be acquiring knowledge and that may protect. Learning is 'somehow' supposed to be fun! Trust what you do sometimes.

 

[Miss.K]

Can you say what it is about astrology that you "like"? In other words, what does it add to your life - to how it is you see yourself? What do you think astrology says about you?

I think some of the reason I like Astrology is, as I think we have touched on before, that I find it very comforting to know when I'm going to be shot figuratively speaking. I think it is kind of the same reason that anybody who in any way try to figure out what the future holds, do so in order to better prepare to be able to protect themselves and their loved ones, if such is at all possible.

I find it both disturbing, but also quite interesting that fate (just like free will) seems to be a fact, -like wow! that is kind of significant and worth a study.

I do also like the archetypal stories, I think that (just like some of the old archetypal tales that don't have anything to do with astrology or Greek Mythology) they touch something very old and basic inside that likes to be explained, and they give clues to how to solve the archetypal dilemmas one is facing.
I think I've always been kind of drawn to this archetype thing, and have kind of used (still do) stories, and tales of archetypal nature to understand what my feelings and dramas are made up of.


I also really like the artwork of the old astrology, and maps of the sky. (really don't like the modern)

Some part of what it adds to my life is work on self/understanding of self, but perhaps mostly understanding of the dynamics (archetypal vibrations or what ever one could call it) of the dramas that are playing out in my life (both outer and inner events) ,
-and some of it is that I find it fascinating, much in the same way as I would imagine someone who likes to dive and explore the sea would find that fascinating, lot of beauty, and wow moments so to speak.

Do you mean what my birth chart say about me, by what astrology say about me?
That would take a lot of space to write about I guess. It is actually long ago I stopped looking so much at the birth chart, as I study the transits and progressions that tell when stuff happens more. Then if I have some problem that I can't figure out how to solve, that seems to be permanent, or happen often, I might search for something written on certain things in the birthchart that I can see tells that archetypal story of always having that problem, to see if I can find clues to how to solve it.
-what did Chiron do about that, aha! he sacrificed himself to have his liver eaten by ravens or vultures or whatever it was, everyday, and it would grow out every night, so that Prometheus could go free, piece of cake!! That solves it, thank you :D

... I have thought a lot about if I was deceiving myself, and experimented with it, tried to prove it wrong and so.
And have come to the conclusion that if I'm deceiving my self, I really must be an amazing trickster.

Absolutely! We all are and tend to view ourselves and everything else in terms of what we "like" and "don't like". If you haven't read them yet, I'd suggest the books on narcissistic wounding - we have all been wounded in this manner. Many here have found the books to be helpful in learning more about ourselves and why we move through the world as we do. In Search of the Miraculous is extremely helpful as well.

I don't want to replace this The Work with it, but I would find it very interesting to test along with intelligent people who are aiming for objective viewing of subjects, and as this is such a place, I'm trying to find out what is the reason behind the caution against it here, as I want to understand, as things don't make much sense to me before I understand.

Are you viewing this subject objectively and if so, how do you know?

edit: added sentence

Yes, I loved when the Mentalist (could have been a great show, but ..well Hollywood) said "If you stop seeing the world in terms of what you like and don't like, -you will find a great deal more peace" (you probably got it from somewhere else though) And yes, everything is on my reading list, I am a slow student in some ways. I think I shall write a post in the swamp soon explaining that a little.

I'm not sure if I'm really able to view anything 100% objectively, but I have done my best to be so in my studies, and also caught myself in giving meaning to things that didn't have any.
I think that a lot of the time I have events as the "checklist", and I can't alter either the position of the planets, or the actual events, unless I lie, which I don't know that I do, if I do, as I strive not to.

For example. Jupiter rules luck and expansion, Venus money, (both among other things)
Before transit Jupiter entered Taurus last year, and neared my natal Venus I was really in big trouble money wise, and I was comforting myself a little knowing that Jupiter would probably at least bring a relief from poverty. (Jupiter is often pleasant that is why we say yubiii when we get happy I guess)
And as soon as it was getting close enough, to have effect, a secondary income that was kind of lucky appeared, and has kept me free of worries of ending up a bag lady for a while.
Just as Jupiter was spot on my Venus, a distant relative send note that she heard that I needed a car, and I could get her old one for free as she didn't need it any more (there's a lot of horsepower in a car, Jupiter rules horses, and also things that we use to travel far, and as I live far away from everything, the car was for travelling far)) , but of cause as Mars(ruling cars) had just turned retrograde in my second house (things I own), and so many things I owned broke down at once (all mechanical, and Mars rules mechanics) which did cost me quite a lot of money, (the Mars retrograde I had not studied before as last time it retrograded I had not yet paid too much attention to Mars, so here I learned about some Mars effect by checking what was going on in the horoscope when everything broke down) And also Mercury ruling traffic had already slowed down to turn retrograde.

I would never have bought a car at that astrological time, but since it was free, and I didn't want to be someone who turned down a free car, because i believed in astrology, I accepted with much thank you. But of cause at the second trip in the car a red light saying STOP!! started to go on, and a trip to the mechanic told me it was a death trap, and as I had a dream shortly before I knew I would get the car, that I went of the road in a car that felt similar to drive, I'm going to bury it, before it buries me, sniff it would have been so good to have a car.
But I would have saved the money for the mechanic had I turned down the car because the horoscope had already told me that it wasn't in good condition, though it looked pretty well.

Now that Jupiter has just passed the natal Venus I just got news that the secondary lucky income, that came with Jupiter nearing the Venus will disappear again, but are not too worried as other factors tell the archetypal story of things starting to move fast career wise, very soon, and one would think that would bring some income as well.

Also as the huge economical ruin I had was shown by other factors that have passed, I would think it probably don't get that bad again any time soon.

So this is kind of how I use it.

 

[Miss.K]

There is a fair amount of information on this site and the Wave Series regarding Astrology. It seems like a good thing to learn if one is so inclined. However you chose to study this existence, after all, are your lessons. Since you are aware of the "fixation" problem, or possibility, then it is likely not going to be one. Here's an interesting quote form Chapter 32 of the Wave Series...

"Q: (L) OK, I want to ask about the experience I had the other night – I had what seemed to be an OOBE the other night. Was I actually having one?

A: Was an “all-intensive ooze” of the solar realm.

Q: (L) OK, what is an “all-intensive ooze” of the solar realm?

A: Realms are compartmentalized at graduated levels, like everything else. The root basis of the study of astrology is the “unified entity realm,” which relates to the effect that local cosmic bodies have upon the body and soul of third density beings in any given locator.

Q: (L) So, what does this mean in terms of what I experienced? I felt that I was moving in and out of my body over and over, sort of like doing an exercise.

A: Solar activity occurring when your experience took place was such that, based on your “solar return,” had the effect of partially separating your soul from your body. Now, just for fun, why not check your chart for that day, and see if the aspects were a little more favorable for expiration of the body potential than usual?"

Then there is the thing with the 35353 code relating to Aquarius and Gemini---probably chaprter 33. Haven't looked for that yet.

Seems like a good idea to study Astrology to me. And there is also the potential, if you are psychically inclined, to use Astrology like Tarot. or Runes or I Ching sticks. Imagine the ability to see your charts, to know what the books say, but to know more by intuitively getting the key points as they relate to you. That would be acquiring knowledge and that may protect. Learning is 'somehow' supposed to be fun! Trust what you do sometimes.

Thank you ziggystarlust,

I wonder what “unified entity realm,” means

I shall check the chap 33,

but now, off to bed with me!

 

[SolarMother]

Miss K., That was a good description of fate and free will.

The way it's worked for me is to notice that astrology can also show me a program, when I'm ready to deal with it-- something I chose as a lesson before I was born, and is displayed archetypally in my chart. Its like a mystery waiting to reveal itself.
This opens up a new world of insights, and realizations for me---namely, that I can change or release a program through free will, with the knowledge astrology adds about the program. Ive noticed it works nicely as a tool with psychotherapy.

It has been a delight to study and learn about this. For a long time I have thought of astrology as a second language, and the article below expounds on this.

We can never know ahead what exact events could happen or how they will happen, but when we have the knowledge of astrology, we can know the energies that we are going to have to deal with, thus being forewarned and forearmed and more prepared to release a program, OR even be open to a Jupiterian opportunity, expansion or blessing-- such as Jupiter transiting one's Sun or Venus. (I am looking forward to what Jupiter will bring when it hits my Sun in Taurus later this year.)

Combined with the knowledge gained from reading, everyday interactions, the forum and doing the Work, it's like a symphony orchestra that comes together at the perfect timing of the universe. Why not know about the timing, and then wait and see how it all unfolds.

I found this article by Dennis Elwell intriguing. He writes good stuff, IMO. There is another article on free will vs fate he wrote as well...have to look for that.

_http://www.skyscript.co.uk/elwell3.html

 

[Miss.K]

Thank you SolarMother,

I'll look into that.
I don't have time to write now, and I'll be gone for a few days, in case someone says something, and I don't reply, because I have to catch up on work (they kind of work that makes one able to pay rent) and I think I accidentally told my boss that he has the first price of incompetent bosses that I've ever had the honour to work for (it is true) yesterday morning because I was asleep when he called, and now I'm afraid that he doesn't dare calling to instruct me, and so I have to try to do what I think he would ask me to do, if he did instruct me.

All which takes concentration

I'll be back

 

[anart]

The way it's worked for me is to notice that astrology can also show me a program, when I'm ready to deal with it-- something I chose as a lesson before I was born, and is displayed archetypally in my chart.

Again, as I tried to explain to your husband:

Hi MrAnderson, we've gone over this before, but you still seem to have a misunderstanding about what programming is. Let me try to explain it another way: Astrology has to do with the date, place and time one is born. Programs are laid down from that point forward, based on a person's environment and how they react, psychologically and emotionally, to that environment. Can you see how the two are not related? Programs are not astrological. I think that you're trying to equate the two because a certain 'sign' is supposed to behave a certain way, but that really muddies the water and leads your thinking completely away from the truth about programs.

 

[truth seeker]

Do you mean what my birth chart say about me, by what astrology say about me?

Actually what I was getting at was in terms of how you see yourself. Many times, the reason we "like" something is because of the way it makes us feel about ourselves or presents a view of ourselves in a way that makes us think we will gain acceptance from others. This goes into the idea of being identified that was mentioned earlier by others. Through the narcissistic wounding we experienced as children via parenting, we may feel as we're not accepted by our families for who we are, but rather end up taking their ideas for our own. So we suppress aspects of who we really are, naturally, in order to fit in. In short, we become what others need us to be to lessen friction and be loved as it makes life easier for us as children. Unfortunately, as we become adults, we can find that these mechanisms no longer work.

One of the ways we can do this is to develop an interest in things that make us not only make us appear "special" to others but also feeds that empty space - that very valid need - to feel accepted and needed/loved. It's a survival mechanism developed to ensure that we feel like we fit in and belong. This assurance gives us something to cling to - hope? Albeit false, we feel that someone loves us. We come to believe we are seen and validated when all that has happened is that we've forced ourselves to become what others need.

Then if I have some problem that I can't figure out how to solve, that seems to be permanent, or happen often, I might search for something written on certain things in the birthchart that I can see tells that archetypal story of always having that problem, to see if I can find clues to how to solve it.

Why not look within to find the answers instead of outside the self? Until one begins to understand the self, all other information is subject to misinterpretation.

Yes, I loved when the Mentalist (could have been a great show, but ..well Hollywood) said "If you stop seeing the world in terms of what you like and don't like, -you will find a great deal more peace" (you probably got it from somewhere else though) And yes, everything is on my reading list, I am a slow student in some ways. I think I shall write a post in the swamp soon explaining that a little.

I'd suggest you start with In Search of the Miraculous (ISOTM). That may be helpful in terms of what others are explaining above so that it becomes clearer. Others may have better ideas.

I'm not sure if I'm really able to view anything 100% objectively, but I have done my best to be so in my studies, and also caught myself in giving meaning to things that didn't have any.
I think that a lot of the time I have events as the "checklist", and I can't alter either the position of the planets, or the actual events, unless I lie, which I don't know that I do, if I do, as I strive not to.

That's why we're here, to try to lessen the amount of lies we tell ourselves. Hard work, but well worth it, I think.

For example. Jupiter rules luck and expansion, Venus money, (both among other things)
Before transit Jupiter entered Taurus last year, and neared my natal Venus I was really in big trouble money wise, and I was comforting myself a little knowing that Jupiter would probably at least bring a relief from poverty. (Jupiter is often pleasant that is why we say yubiii when we get happy I guess)
And as soon as it was getting close enough, to have effect, a secondary income that was kind of lucky appeared, and has kept me free of worries of ending up a bag lady for a while.

Perhaps this "luck" can be attributed to your own steam, in part. Some of what you seem to be pointing to is the idea of faith - to have trust the the Universe knows what it's doing. While there's nothing wrong with that, I've found that very little happens in this life without effort otherwise only having "faith" amounts to being no more different than a religion where people wait for the hand of god to help them out in times of need.

It's scary to not have money in a world where it's necessary and can be really trying to find a way to make efforts when faced with the very real concern of feeding ourselves or keeping a roof over our heads, but I think it's the only way out. I look forward to your post in the swamp and think it will help clarify some things for your further.

Just as Jupiter was spot on my Venus, a distant relative send note that she heard that I needed a car, and I could get her old one for free as she didn't need it any more (there's a lot of horsepower in a car, Jupiter rules horses, and also things that we use to travel far, and as I live far away from everything, the car was for travelling far)) , but of cause as Mars(ruling cars) had just turned retrograde in my second house (things I own), and so many things I owned broke down at once (all mechanical, and Mars rules mechanics) which did cost me quite a lot of money, (the Mars retrograde I had not studied before as last time it retrograded I had not yet paid too much attention to Mars, so here I learned about some Mars effect by checking what was going on in the horoscope when everything broke down) And also Mercury ruling traffic had already slowed down to turn retrograde.

Perhaps there were other lessons here? Just some possibilities, but when things start going "wrong" in my life, I try to see what it is that I'm not paying attention to - what is being taught with regards to myself? Am I in my own way? What is it that I could do or not do differently?

I would never have bought a car at that astrological time, but since it was free, and I didn't want to be someone who turned down a free car, because i believed in astrology, I accepted with much thank you. But of cause at the second trip in the car a red light saying STOP!! started to go on, and a trip to the mechanic told me it was a death trap, and as I had a dream shortly before I knew I would get the car, that I went of the road in a car that felt similar to drive, I'm going to bury it, before it buries me, sniff it would have been so good to have a car.
But I would have saved the money for the mechanic had I turned down the car because the horoscope had already told me that it wasn't in good condition, though it looked pretty well.

Everything has a price, period. It's important to be able to discern what the true cost/value of something is. Money/time/energy? Perhaps that was the true lesson. Did you feel you were being ungrateful by turning down something "free" and why?

Now that Jupiter has just passed the natal Venus I just got news that the secondary lucky income, that came with Jupiter nearing the Venus will disappear again, but are not too worried as other factors tell the archetypal story of things starting to move fast career wise, very soon, and one would think that would bring some income as well.

Can you say what you're doing to try to get income?

Also as the huge economical ruin I had was shown by other factors that have passed, I would think it probably don't get that bad again any time soon.

Well, everything passes sooner or later. What's important, I think, is what lessons we learn as they can prevent similar situations from occurring again. At the least, we come out at the end of it knowing that we can survive such situations.

 

[Miss.K]

Ok, If one go with the theory of Fate at the other end of Free will, I think that this fits pretty well with that time not being linear, and the C's sometimes saying that they know what will happen, because it has already happened.
This sounds like Fate to me, just as "The future is open" sounds like Free will to me.

So if Astrology can be used to tell when things happen, and it can, rather accurately, as far as I can tell from my observing Astrological events, contra real life events.

Whether or not I'm right (and all the other people who report to have similar observations) or not, we can only find out by testing.

But this is a question as to why the caution against it.

The caution against using a ouija board is logical to me. Even if the argument that "there is subtle egotraps" in it, is an argument that I think....I mean that can be said about most anything that one does...My ego loves that I lost weight on the fat diet, so I look more attractive, but should I not study diet because of that?
But the argument that it would be really dangerous to invite whatever to get in contact with you, unless you are confident that you know how to make whatever go away again. This is logical to me.

Astrology seems more to me like watching what's happening on a screen. It might be chocking news at times, but no monsters can jump out of the screen and have you with ketchup.

So imagine you are told you shouldn't use the weather report for planning, because there was subtle ego traps in it, and Gurdjieff didn't use it much, and the C's have said that thousands of years ago the weather measuring instruments were build different, and that some people don't even believe the weather report can actually tell the weather.

Would that make sense to you? Or would you still be curious to why?

Does it make sense if you see it in that context why I still ask?

I wonder, perhaps just as an experiment, if we could try just say what we know due to our knowledge on this subject, not recommend to read books, but to see if we, with the books we have in our heads, can apply this knowledge, not citing someone else who said something, but what we can figure out, by putting our brains to work on it.
what must be the answer, due to the knowledge we have. then if we're not satisfied, we can think of who else might know that we can read.

Take each argument and test if it's valid

 

[Miss.K]

Do you mean what my birth chart say about me, by what astrology say about me?

Actually what I was getting at was in terms of how you see yourself. Many times, the reason we "like" something is because of the way it makes us feel about ourselves or presents a view of ourselves in a way that makes us think we will gain acceptance from others. This goes into the idea of being identified that was mentioned earlier by others. Through the narcissistic wounding we experienced as children via parenting, we may feel as we're not accepted by our families for who we are, but rather end up taking their ideas for our own. So we suppress aspects of who we really are, naturally, in order to fit in. In short, we become what others need us to be to lessen friction and be loved as it makes life easier for us as children. Unfortunately, as we become adults, we can find that these mechanisms no longer work.

One of the ways we can do this is to develop an interest in things that make us not only make us appear "special" to others but also feeds that empty space - that very valid need - to feel accepted and needed/loved. It's a survival mechanism developed to ensure that we feel like we fit in and belong. This assurance gives us something to cling to - hope? Albeit false, we feel that someone loves us. We come to believe we are seen and validated when all that has happened is that we've forced ourselves to become what others need.

I think I've done all of above with many things,
I think though that both my study of Laura, and Astrology, somehow falls outside, because they are not as much things that make me appear special in the way of wauw she's cool, as if I rode a motorbike, or knew karate, or was a rockstar.

I only have one friend who also knows astrology, then I have some friends who accept it, because they like me otherwise, but generally I think that the people I interact with think it's a bit weird (loser weird, not attractive weird)

I myself don't think I would choose it to be special. Though there is a certain Witch aspect that might be attractive weird, the general picture that enteres my head when I think Astrology interested person, looks a lot more like what I used to call "stone-healing hippies" than something I percieve as being special in an attractive weird way. (no offence to any body who likes chrystals out there)
The same goes with being into reading some American lady who claims she channels lightbeings that are her self in the future....

I have artist friends who are attractive weird , and they are a lot more popular, and I'm not completely unskilled in that department, so I think I would actually be one of them and just as popular if it wasn't for those things I study.

Perhaps I should quit ;)

 

[Miss.K]

Hi MissK

The debate about whether astrology works or not is decades if not centuries old. Those who believe in it cite examples where predictions have come to pass or were verified in hindsight. Those who say it does not work have their examples as well. One could perhaps say that astrology does produce results which are better than that dictated by random chance for some people some of the times, but not for all people at all times. In such a situation, it may not be possible to conclusively prove whether astrology works or not.

Hi Obyvatel,

I do find that the problem as with many other things (science/spirituality for example) is that there are those who believe in in and those who don't, and the argument stops there.
When I read about experiments that have been made to prove Astrology wrong or right, they are very, how can I say, they don't do it in a way that would prove anything. They go "oh Aries are supposed to be sporty" and then they see the statistics of how many sports people have an Aries Sun.

In reality it doesn't work like that in my experience. Let me give an example; I'd say that if any sign is the sign of Blues music, it would be Pisces.
Who is the all time queen of the Blues? I'd say that would most definitely be Lady Day! (Billie Holiday)
So she would be a Pisces right? Wrong! She is an Aries sun, Then she would be a Pisces rising right? Wrong! She is Aquarius rising (according to charts that can be found online) But then she would have a Pisces Moon right? Wrong! She has a Capricorn Moon.

So an experiment taking only those factors into account would prove wrong, that Pisces would have anything to do with the blues. (nobody with hearing would doubt that Billie Holiday has)

-BUT taking a look at her chart, one will notice that she has Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, and Chiron in Pisces, further they are trining (making aspect to) Neptune (modern ruler of Pisces, and gives similar effect) and Neptune is opposing (making aspect to) her Ascendant. Her Moon is in the 12th house, which is the natural house of Pisces)
So there is actually a very strong Pisces energy in her birthchart.

The point here is that if one wants to do an experiment, one has to do it right. There was a thread recently about a woman who had been testing on dogs, and found that it was accurate, but she also tested in a way, that went more in the direction of what I described with Billie Holiday.
She mentioned that the dogs who had a prominent Jupiter, showed greater confidence, not that all the dogs that are Sagittarius like to travel. If you understand what I mean.

As regards using astrology as a tool for self development, there are other tools like from the field of cognitive psychology, Gurdjieff's works, Jung's works which many here find easier to use to understand how our minds work. These tend to be more direct than astrology with regards to knowledge of the self.

As far as I've understood Jung used astrology, isn't it him who works with archetypes?

Again I'm not suggesting that Astrology should replace anything, I'm saying it's a quite accurate tool to tell both a persons make up but as well past and future, or an event. or the world situation, and I'm pretty sure it tells the whether as well, just haven't learned how, but have gotten hints.
So if it can all those things, That is kind of significant isn't it?