Hi Buddy, Thanks for translating :)
Buddy said:
Is there any possibility you may be subtly adjusting your perceptions so that configurations of stars, planets and life 'events' match up?
Not probable, I'd say
Why would I want to use a tool that doesn't do the job?, If just to make up predictions, and then alter my experience of events (magically in other peoples experiences of events in their lives as well) to make my predictions fit, why spend time learning to use the tool? Why not just be psychic?
If one wants the joy of inventing stuff there's much faster access to pleasant brain chemicals, by for example writing fiction, (Really! -nicest experiment ever! totally worked! -for a while I thought I'd never want a real life again)
Anyways, I think I know the difference, and have since youngster been fascinated by experiments with human mind, showing how we fool our selves, remember totally selectively, and even turn everything upside down in our minds, if we are just hanged head down for a day or 2, -type Alice in Wonderland.
Though have not read "your not so smart" from what I can tell from the thread, it is not the kind of thinking that is new to me.
Taking into account what I know about the human mind, I still don't think I "create Astrology".
Buddy said:
Do 'Events' exist or are they just conceptual entities since they seem more interpretation than fact. Don't we have to imagine a 'begin' and 'end' and pick and choose what we include and leave out of the description?
Yes "events" start and end, at other points than one might be aware, or perhaps everything is cyclical so there is no start or end of anything.
but the different "events" as we see them, culminate in life at some point,
Like a disease in the body, might have been a long time coming, but there is a point where one realize that one is sick, and if one manages to fight the disease there is a point when one is well again.
Or a divorce, same thing, long time coming usually, but there is the point where it happens, ,
Or the start of a relationship, might have been an accident waiting to happen ;) , but there is the point where it starts,.
Or the point when one radically changes diet, might have been thoughts from years before, that started the process, but there is the point where one says, Holy Pig! Now is the time, -no more wheat and dairy.
etc.
These points are in my experience always shown by transits, and/or progressions (and I'd say that looking closely, one would be able to tell the long coming that leads up to event as well)
Most big things are pretty easy to spot, (though one can miss the obvious, just like when looking at other signs like Swallows, the physical evidence of an event, or inside one self.)
But what I find really interesting is what that
implies
If you can tell in advance what will happen from the point of birth, and all your life, then the future is a lot less open, than what I thought before I saw the "map"
Buddy said:
Would any writers on astrology have any idea what 'events' people of today would be trying to 'foresee'?
I don't use so much the writings. I learn to recognise archetypes.
Understanding archetypal "energies" is like understanding colours I think.
It is like if you want to paint with colours, then once you realise that all colours are made up from mixing red, blue and yellow, you don't need a textbook description of what purple is, or having to buy a purple paint, because you already know (at least after a little practice) that purple is a mix of blue and red.
Just like colours are the same no matter if you are painting a scene from the stone age, or from modern life. Archetypal "energies" are timeless.
Just as once you can recognise a certain colour, you can recognise it everywhere you see it, and don't need someone to tell you, all specific things that can have this colour, or anyone to confirm for you that the colour you are looking at is really purple.
The more you practice looking at colours, the more you will notice, what mix of colours, the colour of skin is made of, and that some people have a green shade to their skin, some red, (some green and red at the same time) some purple, some orange, etc. that makes the almost same coloured skin, (in a box of paint there would be only one skin colour) quite different when looking closely at it. After a while you might even notice that the light coming through your window has different colours, and that the colours of the light changes the colour of the walls, and all the different coloured things in your room.
"Events" people, feelings, sounds, etc. of a certain colour/archetype or certain mixes of colours/archetypal "energies" becomes apparent after observing for a while. I think
After learning the very basics, many years ago (this planet comes with this sign and this house, that roughly represents this body part, and this area of life, and is roughly represented by this archetype from Mythology, or these mythological tales, this test of Hercules, etc.)
I have mostly been observing own and friends, colleagues, family members charts, and seen what happened in life, when something big happened in the cart.
Then mixing the archetypal stories from mythology, with archetypes from other teachings, other tales, and real life stories I've experienced or heard about.
I think about anything that seem connected to a certain archetype. Until I can see it and recognise it. Until I know
why the textbook descriptions say what they do, instead of them telling me how it is.
This way it is easier to see what textbook descriptions have something to them, and what is for example sexist propaganda, or new age infections.I think
Buddy said:
Secondly, I will try and clarify 'patterns' with a few replies:
Miss.K said:
By useful I mean like a weather report, to know when to expect to have to put on a raincoat in order not to be wet figuratively.
Of course, weather reports are sometimes wrong. Farmers, Seafarers, and anyone whose lives depend on knowing weather is proof enough that one can get better and better at interpreting 'signs' from actual observations and experience of weather patterns and no longer have to rely on an external source if such source is available.
I think that to watch the Swallows fly low, and knowing from experience that that means that it will rain , and watch when the horoscope shows some archetypal energy to enter life, and knowing from experience what kind of weather that archetype is, is the same principal. It is all watching the signs of the times so to speak.
(just like communicating by telephone or computer is still communicating, though different set up than talking face to face)
To learn to recognise the archetypes, I can only do by actual observation and experience.
I think that Astrology has more trained my ability to note the signs all around me, than it has made me notice them less.(one sees a lot of colours when looking around the room to see how much one can see that is purple)
The fake map does tell the archetypal energies that is the make up of ones 3D existence to my experience (both internally and externally) but is useless, unless one learns to see those archetypes in real life. (a map can tell you where to find Barcelona, but you need to be able to recognise the city, or read the city sign, to know if you really are in Barcelona when you get there)
Buddy said:
Miss.K said:
I find that it (astrology) is actually quite accurate, but just a little difficult to read, as all is written in symbols, (and each symbol has several meanings) and one has to be careful not to apply wishful thinking, (but that goes with anything)
What do you really know about the time periods and lives of the authors of the books from which you've learned 'interpretation'? Maybe some 'magical compendiums' of some historical periods influenced some writers and some of this stuff worked its way into the astrology literature? These 'compendiums' were certainly forbidden by the Roman Catholic Church and for all we know, astrology, in some form, may just be a private language - just a means of talking code among certain people afraid of being 'outed', harmed or killed. Perhaps it was once a form of Gnostic teaching, but due influences of many writers, began to be burdened with so many "either/or" thinking patterns, it became less and less possible to view reality as mutually inclusive possibilities.
Plus, there's that little issue of Romans seeing 'the flock' as idiots (Dennett calls them "helpless innocents") who were incapable of reading, let alone interpreting, gospels. Romans nearly accomplished burning all non 'certified' gospels and texts. Roman Catholicism (bishops and popes) literally killed all Gnostics they could find and perjure. It took them over 40 years to wipe out France's Cathars, including women and children. Nag Hammadi Gospels seem to be thought of as part of what is left and many of those are Gnostic, Essene.
What's the connection between astrology and religion? Maybe one connection is William James' book "Varieties of Religious Experience". The point here being that new students coming to esoteric studies generally wouldn't know whether their texts are poisoned with ponerology, whether they should be interpreted literally, whether they should be interpreted gnostically or that such possibilities exist.
I agree completely that the texts are just like religion, poisoned with ponerology, (beautifully said)
This is partly why I prefer to learn by observing more than reading.
Also as in history, and many other places one can search, old (and new) texts are for example extremely sexist, so any female "energy" is labeled weak or bad, or removed entirely, which makes kind of half of the picture missing.
I think, that the ability to think and make connections one self is very important, when studying, or one might end up thinking, that women won't have the ability to reach higher spiritual states, unless she has a man to take her with him, or that only one way leads to Rome, or something like that.
Buddy said:
Miss.K said:
I started studying Astrology because I figured out that I was ruled by those influences, and don't like to be ruled (at least not by such inconsiderate rulers)
"inconsiderate" is a sort of value judgement, no? Maybe we don't always know what's 'best' for us.
You are absolutely right, bad explanation on my part, You know the joke "If you wanna make God laugh, tell him about your plans"
(I find it quite clever, and also funny)
God might be rolling on the floor holding his stomach in uncontrollable laughter spasms right now, but I want to understand what is my Free Will, by understanding better what is this elephant called Fate/Destiny/The universe knows what it's doing/We know what will happen cause it already happened.
Once understanding that the map of destiny/fate elephant is there, not looking at it, is about as difficult, as for Eve not to eat that apple. I'd say (perhaps this is why one is warned not to look)
-I'm not sure though, that ignorance of what will come is always a bliss, so perhaps it is good to look. If the universe knows what it's doing, then I'd like to corporate, which I can better do if I'm in on the plan. (the whole big plan would probably take very long to be able to see, if possible at all, any ways)
As to the danger of screwing up the plan by doing something because knowing about it, this could as well happen by doing something because not knowing about it.
-Besides, changing a colour does not become easy, just because you learn to recognise it. Just try to make the trees bloom blue, instead of green, and you will know what I mean.
Buddy said:
Miss.K said:
I thought I better study them to see if I could find a way out. I have not been able to find a way out yet, but find it very practical when I can see a certain problem I have, is mirrored (don't know if it's the right word to use) by a hard transit,
Could you provide an example?
I think it can be explained by the more one understands the archetypal energies at work in a situation, the better one can navigate in the situation, same as understanding how human psyche works, can help to navigate. Or better understanding of the situation one is in, generally helps navigate, Knowledge protects I guess. One practical thing when looking at transits and progressions, is knowing when the tension will be over, as if one has something happening for a month, it is a different approach that is proper, than if it last 10 years. (or 40)
The alcoholics have this saying of finding the strength to change what they can, accept what they cannot change, and the wisdom to know the difference, and though much can be said about alcoholics, I find that that this saying is not so dumb.
If one wants to save enough energy, to be able to be remotely useful, (and there's maybe something about, that once the energy comes over the big toe, it cannot be eaten so easily anymore) -one has to be practical. Spending energy on trying to use ones Free Will to alter what cannot be changed (the elephant), is usually just pouring out energy, with no result, or even escalating disaster, and thus it makes it more difficult to reach the place where one has the chance of saving enough energy to be remotely useful.
So there one needs the wisdom to know the difference.
And this wisdom to know the difference, I think might be found in knowledge of what cannot be changed, so that one can better know what CAN be changed by understanding what cannot.
Like understanding what gravity is so that one doesn't put the cup of (baad) coffee in the air, instead of on the table, all the time, and thus having to spend much time and energy, cleaning up. (it's so annoying when that happens!)
Buddy said:
Miss.K said:
Like knowing how hormones work, can help one coping with the emotional effect of hormones.
I agree that emotional effects attend hormone activity and vice versa, but maybe 'cause' lies elsewhere?
I don't know where cause lies, my thoughts point to the elephant Destiny/Fate/"We know what will happen, cause it already happened", as opposed to Free will/"the future is open"/"you will do what you will do"
As I've said I don't know why fate/destiny is shown in the chart. As far as I can tell Free Will is not shown, as it can't be "future is open" if it is already shown
Buddy said:
Miss.K said:
So the only thing I can think of that would make it not smart to use, would be if it somehow tricks one, and if it is the case, I want to understand how it tricks.
Well, are there any astrological interpretations to help with dependency on astrology?
Dependency issues would be shown I'd say, and Astrology interest as well, I guess,
-but dependency is a thing on it's own I think, as it is the same principle if one is dependent on Astrology, or on ones mother, or anything else.
Astrology doesn't make one dependent, any more than looking at physical evidence, makes one dependent on physical evidence, or understanding the principles of realizing one is deeply mechanical, and try to get that machine clean, and getting the little I's to agree, makes one dependent on Gurdjieff. Or thinking about what really happened at 9/11 makes one dependent on conspiracy theories. Though people with dependency issues would be able to become dependant on all those things.
Buddy said:
At this point, I think it would be good to re-post this:
obyvatel said:
The appeal to geometry by the Greeks, then, is associated with the emergence during the fourth century before Christ of a totally new form of physical astronomy now known as horoscopic astrology'. This revolutionary development was based, in fact, on the completely false premise that planets exerted a distant influence on terrestrial affairs. However, unlike either judicial or zodiacal astrology, which as we have seen might have had a proper physical basis involving a direct contact between astronomical objects and the earth, horoscopic astrology, being specifically related to an imagined, remote influence of the planets (i.e. 'action at a distance'), is entirely spurious.
A direct consequence of this new theory was that other-wise unimportant planetary conjunctions or alignments were now perceived as having great significance. Here again we are dealing with a contrived, yet false transformation of ideas, for in the original judicial astrology there is some evidence that a catastrophe was widely associated with the aftermath of a conference or gathering of the gods (Butterfield 1981). Times of acute crisis might originally have been associated quite plausibly with conjunctions of cometary bodies or extended swarms of fireballs, but the later association attributing significance to the conjunction of planets is patently absurd.
I know it is not supposed to work, but if you get a scientific report pointing out that the colour purple don't exist, because someone made it up, and that so, it is not possible for purple to exist.
What are you going to do with all the purple you still see everyday, and that is in your head from memories of purple things you've seen, even if you think the argument would be valid, if it just wasn't for all those purple things in the world.
Would you be interested in finding out why so much is purple, if purple don't exist?
Buddy said:
Miss.K said:
But that it has changed and developed over time, is not proof to me that it is not useful.
Nor to me, but from an evolutionary standpoint, would a better question be: as a system, is astrology more or less useful for a certain purpose than, say, I Ching?
Yes this I think I have asked something like that too, as it is exactly why I don't understand arguments of subtle ego traps, and danger of becoming obsessed, or identifying with ones study to appear special, as I see those dangers with other tools, or studies as well, and not Astrology specifically.
Buddy said:
I guess being a natural skeptic I tend to want to discredit everything. Having investment in only one tool prevents one from being able to choose whatever may be situationally appropriate.
Me too! I started studying Astrology, because I didn't like the thought that the future was less open than I thought, so I thought I better check it out, and hoped that there wouldn't be any truth to it, so that I could make my own film instead of playing main actress in someone elses film.
I have never before the conversation in this thread, heard of that Astrology should make one not use any other tools, or skills than one has.
It is not a religion, and there is no Astro God, who ask one to only pray to him. It is more like a calender, anybody no matter what other interests or beliefs, are free to check what date it is, no one who doesn't want to, have to, but the calender still says what date it is no matter if one looks or not.
I also use other tools than Astrology, (like looking at the clock when I have to catch the train) like watching the "events", Physical evidence, Knowledge of psychology, Common sense, I Ching, Tarot, What I read here, the Swallows flying low, A sentence someone says, that answers a question I have been thinking about earlier, Dreams, Intuition, Looking inside for answers, and life in general.
I just understand the Astrology language better than for example the I Ching, or find it more direct.
I can be thinking "aaahhhh but if I keep the car just a little while longer, just to drive to the station, what would happen?" and I look up the horary chart, and the Asc (representing me) on the chart is in exact square (tension aspect) to Uranus (among other things, the archetype of things happening suddenly, and thus accidents), from 3rd house (short trips, and traffic among other things), (totally textbook by the way), and it is easier for me to understand, than that I should not marry a woman who is bold and strong, and keep my toes cut off. (even though it says the same thing, I guess)
