Astrology

[Miss.K]

I see astrology as a tool to see programming and as a tool to find insight into how to heal wounds. Never thought of it as a way to avoid lessons or control the future.

There's nothing wrong with lessons if we view them objectively as such. On the other hand, if we go through life beating ourselves up for them, I think it does little if anything to help us grow.

I could be off, but what it seems like is that you want some semblance of control over your environment which is not at all unusual but we can't prevent our lessons unless we learn from them and even then, there is another one waiting. The amazing thing about this is that the Universe knows what it's doing. In some way you can't see yet, all of your experiences put together have helped you to arrive at this very moment. All of the years of wondering, of asking "why", of pain, have helped you to get here and you survived through it all!

To be able to use anything as a tool, one must objectively understand it as such. One must also understand themselves enough to know why they are using it or else it becomes subject to being misused. In Laura's communications with the c's, she found quite early and often that she was to learn on her own steam and not be reliant. Even with such information, she couldn't sidestep her lessons - they were hers to learn and she had done so beautifully.

I've found with things like astrology, tarot, etc that it's incredibly easy to want to fall back on the "information" conveyed. Quite often, the "information" is read by the receiver in a way that subscribes to their subjective view of reality. It's easier said than done, but there's no way around this, in my opinion - one has to go through it. One has to know and understand their reactions, their motivations, etc in order to "graduate" from each lesson. To attempt to do it any other way is basically an attempt to cheat the system.

I do want some semblance of control over my environment, but is that really wanting to cheat and skip lessons?
I think: What is it avoiding lessons? If one finds out that one has Cancer, and tries to find a way to get well and not be killed by Kemo, isn't that one trying to control things, and trying to avoid the lesson of being killed by Kemo? Is that preventing lessons?
Where is the difference between excersising ones Free Will to change direction when one see a truck coming towards one, and trying to control things, and avoid lessons?

I find that with all the places one can search it's incredibly easy to want to fall back on the "information" conveyed.
This goes as well with reading Lauras books, or Gurdieff. And as you say, Laura has to be careful not to do so with the C's.

While I find it valid to all the time strive not to do so, and keep thinking, not falling back on leaning on a Guru, I can't see how this is a bigger danger with Astrology than with anything else.

I think: Gurdieff seems to think that though Astrology shows things, that it is not really important, as a tool for self development, and as Gurdieff was an exceptionally wise human, it can be easy to say, "he didn't recommend using it so I wont go there"
I just can't help thinking, that even though I'm quite confident that Gurdieff was smarter than me, there was no computers when he lived.
If it wasn't for the computer, I would have never gotten anywhere near the understanding I have of Astrology today.
I can't calculate a chart by hand, I'm not a mathematician.
The calculations that take me about 10 seconds to make on the computer, would have taken a really long time to make. I don't know how fast people who can do it by hand, can do it, but if we add transits, progressions, tertiary progressions synastry, composit, progressed composit, etc. and having to do that by hand with every test subject, I would imagine that even a quite skilled and fast mathematician, would spend much of the time studying, on just calculating.

So I have been thinking, that it would be quite interesting if I could have a talk with Gurdieff about that, and show him what I see, and hear what he would think about it.

It might not make any difference in his opinion, but I know that if it wasn't because the computer gives such a huge amount of info in no time, I would agree that it is too complicated to really be useful.

So as he's dead (R.I.P.) this place seems like a good place to have that conversation, now that I can't have it with him.

And this is why I with great risk of being seen as someone who just don't get it, still try to figure out why Astrology specifically is warned against.

 

[Miss.K]

The way it's worked for me is to notice that astrology can also show me a program, when I'm ready to deal with it-- something I chose as a lesson before I was born, and is displayed archetypally in my chart.

Again, as I tried to explain to your husband:

Hi MrAnderson, we've gone over this before, but you still seem to have a misunderstanding about what programming is. Let me try to explain it another way: Astrology has to do with the date, place and time one is born. Programs are laid down from that point forward, based on a person's environment and how they react, psychologically and emotionally, to that environment. Can you see how the two are not related? Programs are not astrological. I think that you're trying to equate the two because a certain 'sign' is supposed to behave a certain way, but that really muddies the water and leads your thinking completely away from the truth about programs.

Hi Anart,
Now I'm getting confused about what is meant by programming.

I am thinking that by programming what is meant here is like parental programming, society programming, etc? not "I am changing your program" kind of programming (referring to the lady who got raped by lizzies described in the wave) or Greenbaum kind of programming?

I was just thinking that for example parental programming, is you learn certain behaviours for good or bad by how your parents behave?

If this is the case, I'd say that one could say, this is shown in the horoscope, as the parents, and the dynamics of childhood, in my experience, are pretty accurately described in the birthchart.
Also ones relaitionship with society I would say would be described.


I think we come back to the Fate versus Free Will here, because if we accept the concept that Fate exsists a long with Free Will, then

"Astrology has to do with the date, place and time one is born. Programs are laid down from that point forward,"

-I am thinking might not be accurate, because if Fate ia a fact, then it could very well be that dealing with certain Programs are part of ones Fate, and if we accept for a moment that Astrology might be a device one can use to see fate, then Programs would be shown there if they are part of ones Fate?

Fate also defy the concept of "Programs are laid down from that point forward" in the way that it can be already so, that something will happen from that point forward?
This I would think, also fits well with the "time is not linear" concept?

Also one can say that the horoscope does move forward after birth, as progressions (meaning that one makes a day equivelent to a year so that the position of the planets a day after you are born tell you what happens when you are a year, and so forth.
-and another system called tertiary progressions that makes a day equivelent to a month, another called tertiary progressions2 that makes a month equivelent to a year,

I have found that they are all quite accurate in telling the same story as i see/feel happens in my life. (sometimes the events can be interior)

 

[Oxajil]

As I understand it, and I can tell from my own experiences, is that the best way we can overcome and learn from the lessons in life, is to network with other like-minded people who can offer advice, feedback, mirroring and more, in ways we alone would not be capable of.

Mostly it's been just you and astrology. You are the one making the interpretations and decide on those, on what to do next. But that does not mean that there is an (emotional) understanding of why you do what you do. If you've read Ouspensky's In Search of the Miraculous, and the Psychology books, you will notice that pretty much most of the time, if not all the time, you (we) are acting in a mechanical way. And your way of going about it with astrology can be just that: mechanical. Meaning that you just do what you do, without any true understanding, without any true control. All the while thinking that you do understand, and that you do have control.

I think that the less dependent you become of Astrology and increase your knowledge and continue to network here instead, on any problems you may have, you might learn and grow a lot more than you might think. You might want to ask yourself, how much knowledge you have gained over the past few years regarding the recommended books mentioned in this forum. All the time spent on Astrology, subjective interpretations and more, could have been spent on increasing knowledge and understanding through the network and literature.

If you are emotionally attached to Astrology readings, that could be another reason for you to take a break from it, observe yourself, while increasing understanding on the way the human mind works by reading the recommended books.

Just my take on this..

 

[SeekinTruth]

You've been given really valuable advise, Miss.K. It's up to you to try to understand everything that's been pointed out to you. You seem very identified with Astrology and your "knowledge" of it. As I and others tried to point out to you, there are a number of problems for dealing with Astrology.

First and foremost, it's been distorted/corrupted over millenia. Second, also as mentioned, there's the problem of subjectivity and seeing only what you want to see -- including when "astrological predictions," etc. don't pan out. Thirdly, you don't seem to be familiar with G's attitude toward Astrology and everything else. In ISOTM, it seems pretty clear to me that besides the problem of distortion/corruption of the original understanding, as with many other things that can be helpful/beneficial, there's the problem of understanding what is part of false personality/buffers/Predator's Mind/programs, etc. and what is part of essence.

My understanding from the little G did allude to is that astrology doesn't apply much to mechanical man deeply identified with his false personality. Whatever was genuine about aspects of astrology originally seems to apply to essence -- what you're born with, what is actually yours. False personality is built accidentally and mechanically and leads to buffers, etc. -- all things you pick up from your environment and others, all things that are NOT yours.

Unless you become more familiar with G's teachings, the psychology books, etc., you won't quite understand what's being pointed out to you. G seemed to be saying that only if you've cleaned your machine enough so that there's enough essence able to be and act in you, astrology can't apply in most situations. He said something similar about psychology. He said true psychology begins to apply for a real man -- not "man" with quotation marks. The usual state of man being a machine requires a mechanic, not a psychologist.

Then there's your comment about Jung and archetypes. Again, it's a very complex issue and there's a real danger to identify with archetypes, thinking you ARE the archetype instead of understanding that an (and which) archetype has been activated in your psyche. This can lead to loads of troubles. Only if we've worked on ourselves and cleaned our machine enough using all the tools discussed here (including diet and EE) can we have enough Being to know which archetype is working through us and know that we are just an antenna receiving and NOT the archetype ourselves or try to control or command these things which are MUCH greater than any one person. We are like actors playing a role -- we can't change the script or take on the Director's role, etc. There IS real danger in doing so.

Jung has written extensively about all this, as well as Laura, and many others (Unholy Hungers is a very good book that goes deeply into all this). And from my own life experience and reading, I've come to the same conclusions about these issues. There's also some great threads in the forum about Jungian ideas and archetypes, including one started by Psyche called the Eros Theme. Use the search function and you'll get much more insight into these issues.

There's also the issue from my own experience with the I Ching that confirms what's been stated by the C's and the way Laura approaches the Astro-Matrix (and also I Ching castings) in The Dot Connector Magazine. It quickly stops being helpful, if you become dependent/obsessed with personal concerns. It's much better to expand your perspective and be more concerned with overall patterns and tendencies that are occurring on a global or greater scale. This tends to be much more fruitful. And part of the Work is finding yourself in the overall scheme of things.

If you spend more time reading the Wave and other recommended material all of these things will become much more clear to you. I know you say you're a slow reader. Don't worry about that -- just go at your own pace. But I can assure you that you can have much greater insights and then understanding of many of the points that have been pointed out to you. Part of Working on yourself also includes being brutally honest. Most of the effort should go into stopping lying to the self. Absolute sincerity is the goal, which is extremely difficult. But with continued effort, we get closer and closer.

So, how has astrology helped you? Be very sincere when you try to answer this question. This question is for you more than for us here on the forum. Are you satisfied with the results of how you've been approaching life? Is there real practical benefits you've realized? Unless there's a certain level of sincere dissatisfaction with your past and present life, you'll never be able to put the efforts in to tackle the Work for real. When I say sincere, I mean being totally sincere with yourself whether what you've done and what results you've gotten is what you really want.

And if not, are you ready to take responsibility for it and do things differently to have any real chance of having different results in the future? Or are you going to blame it on astrology or you didn't pay enough attention to this or that astrological aspect? If doing this hasn't brought about good results in the past, how likely is it to bring about good results in the future?

Think about what's been said about becoming dependent on the C's, as well. Nothing is taken as "gospel" just because the C's state something. There's years and years of research to try to confirm the clues given by the C's -- hard work rather than trying to have all the answers handed over by the C's (which they aren't willing to do anyway, because it would be detrimental, NOT beneficial).

Try to think about all this (including the questions that are primarily for you to answer honestly for yourself), before coming back with "yes, but..." and repeating your points. Try to seriously consider the possibility that the forum members giving you feedback understand more about what you're trying to point out than your understanding of what they're trying to point out. See how it goes....

 

[bozadi]

One very good help of astrology in terms of raising one’s awareness of one’s “lessons” in some particular incarnation is the utilization of astrological interpretation of one’s “moon nodes.”

One of the best resources that I can advise you to utilize in this subject matter is “Astrology for the Soul” by Jan Spiller. Please ascertain your “lunar north node” in the below table and than proceed to read the interpretations for that sign below that. These interpretations are the beginning summaries (given by Spiller herself) of the full interpretations, so if you like the interpretation, please buy the book to read detailed analysis of your north node (the book is over 600 pages as I remember, so divide that by 12 signs to guess around how many pages for each sign’s interpretation) . You will notice that this particular tool of astrology is amazingly relevant to the issue of one’s “spiritual lessons” in one’s particular incarnation. I’m not an astrology expert but I can probably answer many of your questions on the subject.

People around me, my family members in particular, were very positively influenced by these north node interpretations.

The book was translated into many languages by the way.


So;


• June 7, 1913 - Dec. 3, 1914: Pisces
• Dec. 4, 1914 - May 31, 1916: Aquarius
• June 1, 1916 - Feb. 13, 1918: Capricorn
• Feb. 14, 1918 - Aug.15, 1919: Sagittarius
• Aug. 16, 1919 - Feb. 7, 1921: Scorpio
• Feb. 8, 1921 - Aug. 23, 1922: Libra
• Aug. 24, 1922 - Apr. 23, 1924: Virgo
• Apr. 24, 1924 - Oct. 26, 1925: Leo
• Oct. 27, 1925 - Apr.16, 1927: Cancer
• Apr.17, 1927 - Dec. 28, 1928: Gemini
• Dec. 29, 1928 - July 7, 1930: Taurus
• July 8, 1930 - Dec. 28, 1931: Aries
• Dec .29, 1931 - June 24, 1933: Pisces
• June 25, 1933 - Mar. 8, 1935: Aquarius
• Mar. 9, 1935 - Sept. 14, 1936: Capricorn
• Sept.15, 1936 - Mar. 3, 1938: Sagittarius
• Mar. 4, 1938 - Sept. 12, 1939: Scorpio
• Sept.13, 1939 - May 24, 1941: Libra
• May 25, 1941 - Nov. 21, 1942: Virgo
• Nov. 22, 1942 - May 11, 1944: Leo
• May 12, 1944 - Dec. 13, 1945: Cancer
• Dec. 14, 1945 - Aug. 2, 1947: Gemini
• Aug. 3, 1947 - Jan. 26, 1949: Taurus
• Jan. 27, 1949 - July 26, 1950: Aries
• July 27, 1950 - Mar. 28, 1952: Pisces
• Mar. 29, 1952 - Oct. 9, 1953: Aquarius
• Oct. 10, 1953 - Apr. 2, 1955: Capricorn
• Apr. 3, 1955 - Oct. 4, 1956: Sagittarius
• Oct. 5, 1956 - June 16, 1958: Scorpio
• June 17, 1958 - Dec.15, 1959: Libra
Dec. 16, 1959 - June 10, 1961: Virgo
• June 11, 1961 - Dec. 23, 1962: Leo
• Dec. 24, 1962 - Aug. 25, 1964: Cancer
• Aug. 26, 1964 - Feb. 19, 1966: Gemini
• Feb. 20, 1966 - Aug. 19, 1967: Taurus
• Aug. 20, 1967 - Apr.19, 1969: Aries
• Apr. 20, 1969 - Nov. 2, 1970: Pisces
• Nov. 3, 1970 - Apr. 27, 1972: Aquarius
• Apr. 28, 1972 - Oct. 27, 1973: Capricorn
• Oct. 28, 1973 - July 10, 1975: Sagittarius
• July 11, 1975 - Jan. 7, 1977: Scorpio
• Jan. 8, 1977 – July 5, 1978: Libra
• July 6, 1978 - Jan. 12, 1980: Virgo
• Jan.13, 1980 - Sept. 24, 1981: Leo
• Sept. 25, 1981 - Mar.16, 1983: Cancer
• Mar.17.1983 - Sept.11, 1984: Gemini
• Sept.12, 1984 - Apr. 6, 1986: Taurus
• Apr. 7, 1986 – Dec. 2, 1987: Aries
• Dec. 3, 1987 - May 22, 1989: Pisces
• May 23, 1989 - Nov. 8, 1990: Aquarius
• Nov.19, 1990 - Aug. 1, 1992: Capricorn
• Aug. 2, 1992 - Feb. 1, 1994: Sagittarius
• Feb .2, 1994 – Jul. 31, 1995: Scorpio
• Aug.1, 1995 - Jan. 25, 1997: Libra
• Jan. 26, 1997 - Oct. 20, 1998: Virgo
• Oct. 21, 1998 - Apr. 9, 2000: Leo
• Apr.10, 2000 - Oct. 12, 2001: Cancer
• Oct. 13, 2001 - Apr. 13, 2003: Gemini
• Apr. 14, 2003 - Dec. 25, 2004: Taurus
• Dec. 26, 2004 - June 21, 2006: Aries
• June 22, 2006 - Dec.18, 2007: Pisces
• Dec. 19, 2007 - Aug. 22, 2009: Aquarius

(If your date is on the “boundary” of two signs, check it from a detailed horoscope map by your birth data (from one of many free online resource)


North Node inAries

Attributes to Develop

Work in these areas can help uncover hidden gifts and talents.

• Independence
• Self-awareness
• Trusting one’s impulses
• Courage
• Constructive self-interest
• Moderation in giving
• Self-nurturance

Tendencies to Leave Behind

Working to reduce the influence of these tendencies can help make life easier and more enjoyable.

• Seeing ones self through others’ eyes
• Debilitating selflessness
• Being Mr. or Ms. Nice
• Obsessive attachment to fairness and justice
• Co-dependence: attachment to external harmony
• “Tit for tat” mentality



North Node in Taurus

Attributes to Develop

Work in these areas can help uncover hidden gifts and talents.

• Loyalty
• Awareness of boundaries
• Taking things one step at a time
• A sense of self-worth
• Awareness of personal values
• Patience
• Honoring expressed needs of self and others
• Enjoying the five physical senses
• Gratitude
• Awareness of nurturing from Mother Earth
• Forgiveness
• Persistence

Tendencies to Leave Behind

Working to reduce the influence of these tendencies can help make life easier and more enjoyable.

• Attraction to crisis situations
• Over concern with other people’s business
• Impatience
• Inappropriate intensity
• Judgmental tendencies
• Preoccupation with the psychological motivations of others
• Resistance to cooperating with what others want
• Over reacting
• Destroying something in order to eliminate one part
• Obsessive-compulsive tendencies




North Node in Gemini

Attributes to Develop

Work in these areas can help uncover hidden gifts and talents.

• Healthy curiosity
• Asking questions to learn how others think
• Seeing both sides of a situation
• Tact
• Logic
• Communication of internal dichotomies
• A positive approach to life and other people
• Purposely cheering up others
• Using a nonthreatening approach when expressing ideas
• Listening
• Openness to new ideas and experiences
• Seeking factual information before making decisions

Tendencies to Leave Behind

Working to reduce the influence of these tendencies can help make life easier and more enjoyable.

• Self-righteousness
• Aloofness
• Assuming others know “where they’re at”
• Thinking one knows what others are saying without really listening
• Needing to be right
• Espousing “Truth,” without taking others’ views into account
• Careless spontaneity
• Taking shortcuts
• Taking oneself too seriously, having a ponderous approach to life
• Acting on intuition without checking the facts
• Resisting ideas that are foreign to one’s belief system
• Prejudging present situations on the basis of your past experience




North Node in Cancer

Attributes to Develop

Work in these areas can help uncover hidden gifts and talents.

• Noticing and validating feelings
• Empathy
• Nurturing and supporting others
• Building one’s own foundation and security
• Honest disclosure of feeling and insecurities
• Humility
• Accepting others’ foibles and fluctuating moods without judgment
• Staying centered in one’s own feelings

Tendencies to Leave Behind

Working to reduce the influence of these tendencies can help make life easier and more enjoyable.

• Needing to control everything and everyone
• Compulsion to take charge without fully understanding the situation
• Ignoring the process; being too focused on the goal
• Feeling completely responsible for everything
• Hiding feelings and fears in intimate relationships
• Doing things to gain respect or admiration from others
• Taking care of others’ feelings and neglecting one’s own
• Doing what is “socially acceptable” rather than what is totally honest
• Thinking that things have to be difficult in order to be important




North Node in Leo

Attributes to Develop

Work in these areas can help uncover hidden gifts and talents.

• Individuality
• Willingness to take “center stage”
• Following one’s heart’s desires
• Strengthening one’s willpower
• Enthusiasm
• Self-confidence
• Taking risks
• Relating to the childlike quality in others
• Enjoying fun – having fun
• Looking at life as a game
• Developing an “It’s up to me” attitude

Tendencies to Leave Behind

Working to reduce the influence of these tendencies can help make life easier and more enjoyable.

• Yielding to peer pressure in order to “belong”
• Detaching from emotional situations
• Aloofness
• Waiting for others to prompt one’s own action
• “Overlooking what’s really going on
• Waiting for “more” knowledge before taking action
• Excessive daydreaming
• Running away from confrontations




North Node in Virgo

Attributes to Develop

Work in these areas can help uncover hidden gifts and talents.

• Participation
• Bringing order to chaos
• Creating routines
• Focusing on the here and now
• Acting on feelings of compassion
• Being of service to others
• Analyzing and categorizing
• Gaining self confidence through experience
• Moderation
• Taking risks in spite of fears
• Noticing and valuing details

Tendencies to Leave Behind

Working to reduce the influence of these tendencies can help make life easier and more enjoyable.

• Being a victim (or having a victim consciousness)
• Confusion and disorientation
• Avoidance of planning
• Escapism/addictive tendencies (drugs, alcohol, excessive sleep, daydreaming, etc.)
• Extremism
• Oversensitivity
• Self doubt
• Feelings of inadequacy
• Withdrawal
• Vagueness (not wanting to commit)/inaction
• Giving up




North Node in Libra

Attributes to Develop

Work in these areas can help uncover hidden gifts and talents.

• Cooperation
• Diplomacy and tact
• Increasing awareness of others’ needs
• Selflessness: giving support without expecting reciprocity
• Creating win/win situations
• Sharing
• Seeing things through another’s eyes
• Communicating self-identity

Tendencies to Leave Behind

Working to reduce the influence of these tendencies can help make life easier and more enjoyable.

• Impulsiveness
• Thoughtless self-assertion
• Lack of awareness of others’ needs for support
• Self-centeredness
• Selfishness
• Lack of good judgment regarding money
• Expecting others to be like oneself
• Indifference to how one is seen by others
• Resistance to compromise
• Outbursts of anger
• Overconcern with survival




North Node in Scorpio

Attributes to Develop

Work in these areas can help uncover hidden gifts and talents.

• Self discipline
• Choosing constructive change
• Releasing whatever causes stagnation and low energy
• Eliminating non useful possessions
• Enjoying things without having to own them
• Accepting support from others (ideas, money, opportunities)
• Enjoying high risk situations that make one feel alive
• Awareness of others’ psychology (their desires, wants, needs, and motives)
• Openness to partnering, supporting, and merging power with others

Tendencies to Integrate and Move Beyond

Working to reduce the influence of these tendencies can help make life easier and more enjoyable.

• Attachment to comfort and the status quo
• Possessiveness
• Over concern with accumulation and ownership
• Questioning past decisions
• Stubbornness
• Getting bogged down in sensual appetites
• Repeatedly doing things one way (the hard way) even though another way is easier
• Resistance to change and others’ input





North Node in Sagittarius

Attributes to Develop

Work in these areas can help uncover hidden gifts and talents.

• Reliance on intuition, prophetic abilities, and invisible guidance
• Speaking from Higher Consciousness
• Spontaneity – developing a sense of freedom and adventure
• Direct communication free from censorship
• Trusting oneself
• Spending time alone and in nature
• Patience
• Intuitive listening – hearing the meaning behind the words

Tendencies to Leave Behind

Working to reduce the influence of these tendencies can help make life easier and more enjoyable.

• Second-guessing what others are thinking
• Indecisiveness
• Perpetually seeking more information
• Saying what others want to hear
• Invalidating intuitive knowing with logic
• Gossiping
• Impatience – wanting immediate answers
• Trusting others’ perceptions instead of one’s own – including others’ perceptions about oneself.




North Node in Capricorn

Attributes to Develop

Work in these areas can help uncover hidden gifts and talents.

• Self-control
• Approaching life from an adult position
• Self-respect
• Staying goal oriented
• Sensible approaches to problem solving
• Keeping commitments and promises
• Letting go of the past
• Self-care
• Accepting responsibility for success

Tendencies to Leave Behind

Working to reduce the influence of these tendencies can help make life easier and more enjoyable.

• Dependence
• Moodiness
• Insecurity leading to inaction
• Limiting self through fear
• Using the past to avoid the present
• Isolation – spending too much time at home
• Lack of self-respect
• Avoidance of personal risk
• Controlling others through emotional overreactions




North Node in Aquarius

Attributes to Develop

Work in these areas can help uncover hidden gifts and talents.

• Objectivity (seeing the “total picture”)
• Desire for friendship
• Making decisions for the group’s best interest
• Willingness to share unconventional ideas
• Willingness to champion humanitarian causes
• Active participation in groups
• Awareness of equality
• Relating to others as individuals. Apart from their specific roles (gardener, doctor, lover, etc.)
• Creating win/win situations
• Recognizing how others are special

Tendencies to Leave Behind

Working to reduce the influence of these tendencies can help make life easier and more enjoyable.

• Insistence on getting one’s way
• Making changes just to exercise authority
• Attachment to taking risks (romance or gambling)
• Willfulness and stubbornness
• Attachment to the need for approval
• Melodramatic tendencies
• Doing what’s expected instead of following one’s heart
• Unbridled passion – going to extremes
• Unawareness of others importance
• Prideful responses based on fear





North Node in Pisces

Attributes to Develop

Work in these areas can help uncover hidden gifts and talents.

• Being nonjudgmental
• Compassion
• Surrendering anxiety to a Higher Power
• Freeing the mind through meditation and self-reflection
• Focusing on the spiritual pathway
• Trusting in positive outcomes
• Acknowledging connection with the universe
• Welcoming change

Tendencies to Leave Behind

Working to reduce the influence of these tendencies can help make life easier and more enjoyable.

• Hyperanxiety reactions
• Over analysis
• Obsessive worry
• Exaggerating the importance of details
• Critical first reactions
• Fault finding – making others wrong
• Excessive anxiety over making mistakes
• Being Mr. or Ms. Perfect
• Staying in unpleasant situations
• Inflexibility

-north node time table source: _http://northnodeastrology.blogspot.com/2009/02/north-node-chart.html
-north node sign summary interpretations excerpt source: _http://urmore.com
-Jan Spiller’s webpage: _https://www.janspiller.com

 

[truth seeker]

I do want some semblance of control over my environment, but is that really wanting to cheat and skip lessons?
I think: What is it avoiding lessons? If one finds out that one has Cancer, and tries to find a way to get well and not be killed by Kemo, isn't that one trying to control things, and trying to avoid the lesson of being killed by Kemo? Is that preventing lessons?

To me, if one wants to attempt to recover from cancer, one must first take responsibility in terms of how they got where they are. This means finding out what they did to get to that state. It can mean many things from reevalutaion relationsships with others as well as self (thoughts, emotions, etc) to taking a hard look at what they ate. In other words what they fed themselves physically and spiritually. While lessons appear in all forms, one must try to discern what the lessons are. One can only control/change themselves. To do this, one must strive to know themselves first.

Where is the difference between excersising ones Free Will to change direction when one see a truck coming towards one, and trying to control things, and avoid lessons?

There's a difference between utilizing knowledge gained through hard work in order to lessen the chances of getting hit by a truck" because one has learned to recognize their own responses to trucks. In addition, one doesn't fear getting "hit" because they recognize that "trucks" are a part of this existence. This is quite different from trying to predict when the truck will come. One is a tool that fosters self reliance. The other is based in fear and becomes a neverending cycle (we become stuck living the same lesson) It prevents us from learning to walk on our own.

I find that with all the places one can search it's incredibly easy to want to fall back on the "information" conveyed.
This goes as well with reading Lauras books, or Gurdieff. And as you say, Laura has to be careful not to do so with the C's.

While I find it valid to all the time strive not to do so, and keep thinking, not falling back on leaning on a Guru, I can't see how this is a bigger danger with Astrology than with anything else.

I think: Gurdieff seems to think that though Astrology shows things, that it is not really important, as a tool for self development, and as Gurdieff was an exceptionally wise human, it can be easy to say, "he didn't recommend using it so I wont go there"
I just can't help thinking, that even though I'm quite confident that Gurdieff was smarter than me, there was no computers when he lived.
If it wasn't for the computer, I would have never gotten anywhere near the understanding I have of Astrology today.
I can't calculate a chart by hand, I'm not a mathematician.
The calculations that take me about 10 seconds to make on the computer, would have taken a really long time to make. I don't know how fast people who can do it by hand, can do it, but if we add transits, progressions, tertiary progressions synastry, composit, progressed composit, etc. and having to do that by hand with every test subject, I would imagine that even a quite skilled and fast mathematician, would spend much of the time studying, on just calculating.

So I have been thinking, that it would be quite interesting if I could have a talk with Gurdieff about that, and show him what I see, and hear what he would think about it.

It might not make any difference in his opinion, but I know that if it wasn't because the computer gives such a huge amount of info in no time, I would agree that it is too complicated to really be useful.

So as he's dead (R.I.P.) this place seems like a good place to have that conversation, now that I can't have it with him.

And this is why I with great risk of being seen as someone who just don't get it, still try to figure out why Astrology specifically is warned against.

I can't speak for others, but I don't think that astrology as you currently see it is discouraged because G wasn't a proponent of it but rather because our current understanding doesn't seem to jive with what astrology seems to be thought of amongst the general population.

I think we come back to the Fate versus Free Will here, because if we accept the concept that Fate exsists a long with Free Will, then

Can you say what your understanding of fate is?

 

[truth seeker]

One very good help of astrology in terms of raising one’s awareness of one’s “lessons” in some particular incarnation is the utilization of astrological interpretation of one’s “moon nodes.”

Hi bozadi,

I just came from the Jan Spiller site and it reads as a bit new agey to me. The same goes somewhat for the urmore site you listed. As far as I can see, neither of these sites back up their work with any research or information that clearly explains how they came by their information which, to me, raises suspicions. Also, can you explain, in your own words, what exactly psych-k is? I've already been to the corresponding website but would greatly appreciate it if you could clarify what your understanding of this is.

Just so you're aware, a large part of this forum is based on doing work on the self and learning to think for oneself which is unfortunately not as simple as many would have us believe. If you haven't already, you may be interested in reading or rereading the books suggested to MK.

 

[obyvatel]

Hi MissK,
The Gurdjieff quote about astrology that I know about from ISOTM is that he said astrology was applicable to a person's essence , not his personality .

[quote author=MissK]
As far as I've understood Jung used astrology, isn't it him who works with archetypes?
[/quote]

Carl Jung, whose work is selectively cited by some astrology groups also said pretty much the same thing as Gurdjieff.

[quote author=Car Jung]
We are born at a given moment in a given place and like vintage years of wine we have the qualities of the year and of the season in which we are born. Astrology does not lay claim to anything else.
[/quote]

I am not quite sure how you came to the conclusion that astrology is discouraged because Gurdjieff said so.


Many followers of astrology believe that we are ruled by the position of planets and try to come up with theories to explain the "how" part of it. Since you seem to be on board with the idea that planets do not rule us, then we come to Jung's interpretation about astrology - which is it seems to work on the principle of synchronicity or "acausal connectedness".

[quote author=CG Jung]
Astrology is one of the intuitive methods like the I Ching, geomantics, and other divinatory procedures. It is based upon the synchronicity principle, i.e. meaningful coincidence. ... Astrology is a naively projected psychology in which the different attitudes and temperaments of man are represented as gods and identified with planets and zodiacal constellations
[/quote]

An Indian astrologer BV Raman had once written to Jung about astrology and Jung's response was
[quote author=CG Jung]
Astrology is of particular interest to the psychologist, since it contains a sort of psychological experience which we call projected - this means that we find the psychological facts as it were in the constellations. This originally gave rise to the idea that these factors derive from the stars, whereas they are merely in a relation of synchronicity with them. I admit that this is a very curious fact which throws a peculiar light on the structure of the human mind.
[/quote]

Though sometimes astrologers are quick to point out Jung used psychology, they still continue to use terms like "Mars rules ........." "Jupiter rules ........" which I find a little disingenuous. Anyway, as Jung said, in his (learned) opinion, astrology relies on intuitiveness and it could be dangerous in the hands of some.

You have raised the point such warnings are not specific to astrology only. Any divination related activity can be regarded in a similar way. A lot of work to clean one's machine is needed to get subjective biases out of the way. And what Gurdjieff saw and what has been verified since by modern cognitive psychology and neuroscience is that it is incredibly difficult for us to do.

Astrological predictions are vague in their very nature - meaning there could be multiple interpretations coming out of them. This is related to the complexity of the various combinations and transits. In this context, a quote from Francis Bacon is relevant
[quote author=Francis Bacon]
It is the peculiar and perpetual error of the human understanding to be more moved and excited by affirmatives than by negatives.
[/quote]

This is related to what is called confirmation bias in terms of modern psychology.

Now after an event has come to pass, one could look back and come up with an astrological explanation that would seem to match the event. Once one goes through this exercise and few times, a person is convinced that "astrology works". You gave an example of getting an old car as a gift which did not work well and you found Jupiter and Mars related stuff which seemed to indicate such an event. But what does that really tell you ? A few hours on the internet researching the make and model of the car would have given you a pretty good idea of what to expect. You could have taken the car to a mechanic to get his appraisal and it would have probably told you more. These activities would have helped you exercise your own thinking power and that is what the focus of the forum is in regards to conducting our daily lives.

As for using astrology for understanding emotionally traumatic events of the past, again that some configuration in the sky could have foretold such an event does not really help in processing the experience imo. A psychological approach like used in the "Redirect" thread which has been suggested to you is far more likely to produce growth-oriented changes.

So the bottomline as I understand it is that reliance on astrology can have the effect of using one's energy in a way which is not conducive to self-empowerment and growth with a reliance instead on "magical thinking". This does not address the question whether "astrology works" or not - but more on the effect astrology may have on the user. In the end, it is always up to you whether you want to engage in astrology or not - and it is not upto anyone else to convince you of anything in this regard. As others have pointed out to you, it is up to you now to look into the reasons others have given as to why astrology is not a frontline tool in the work on the self as undertaken in this forum and come up with your own conclusion.

 

[EmeraldHope]

Miss K, I would like to add a piece of writing from Laura for your consideration ( http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/discern2.htm )

The Cassiopaeans have said that "knowledge protects." They have also said that it is not "where you are but who you are and what you SEE" that counts in cosmic metamorphic terms. Obviously, "seeing" is somehow related to Knowledge and "conscious awareness."C's: Remember, density refers to one's conscious awareness only. Once one is aware, ALL [many spirals of the planchette for emphasis] conforms to that awareness.Note here: The obvious implication of this is that there is some "objective test" of one's awareness and that is the fact that one will experience significant changes in one's life and experiences as a consequence of a deep change in awareness. In other words, it is not an arbitrary, nebulous statement that cannot be held up to proof. If your awareness changes in a deep and significant way, then your reality will also change significantly. It is not enough to say "Oh, I see things so differently! I am at peace!" and so on. If "all" conforms to advanced awareness, that suggests a completely different dynamic interaction with reality than existed before. It also suggests that those who have a "different" awareness will be unable to even perceive the higher dynamic.
But here, before we get into specific techniques of developing this heightened awareness that can create a shift in reality, we want to discuss some of the basics, i.e. what it really means to "SEE" and the context in which this SEEing takes place.
As we have documented on this website, our research shows that most of what is passed off as "esoteric" teachings is based on a narrow and limited view of reality even if it is couched in terms that seem to be "spiritual." One of the chief failings of these teachings is that they promote the idea that one can achieve great "spiritual" advancement by "emulating beings at higher levels" or practicing "spiritual disciplines" that are purportedly designed to change one's state. What most people do not take into account is the fact that this amounts to is attempting to do advanced calculus before one has even learned basic math. It could even be considered hubris.

Georges Gurdjieff commented:
"The idea of initiation, which reaches us through pseudo-esoteric systems, is also transmitted to us in a completely wrong from.
"The legends concerning the outward rites of initiation have been created out of the scraps of information we possess in regard to the ancient Mysteries.
"Transitions from one level of being to another were marked by ceremonies of presentation of a special kind, that is, initiation.
"But a change of being cannot be brought about by any rites.
"Rites can only mark an accomplished transition.
"And it is only in pseudo-esoteric systems in which there is nothing else except these rites, that they begin to attribute to the rites an independent meaning.
"It is supposed that a rite, in being transformed into a sacrament, transmits or communicates certain forces to the initiate.� This again relates to the psychology of an imitation way
"There is not, nor can there be, any outward initiation. In reality only self-initiation, self-presentation exist systems and schools can indicate methods and ways, but no system or school whatever can do for a man the work that he must do himself.

"Inner growth, a change of being, depend entirely upon the work which a man must do on himself." Gurdjieff quoted by Ouspensky in In Search of the Miraculous

Like most other seekers of higher spiritual states, I was inculcated for most of my life with the ideas promoted by the "imitation systems" mentioned by Gurdjieff above. And it was from this frame of reference that my early interactions with the C's took place during which time most of my "sacred cows" were put out to pasture and I was divested of many errors. I, too, thought that I had to do advanced calculus when it was obvious, from my life, that I hadn't even learned the basic math of this reality. For this reason, some of the lessons the C's were trying to outline for me were difficult:

Q: (L) What is it about the oncoming wave that is going to make any given person aware?
A: Not yet... First: your prophets have always used 3rd density symbology to try to convey 4th density realities. You are attempting to gather 3rd density answers to explain 4th through 7th density principles. This is why you are getting frustrated, because it doesn't "mesh." [...] You see, my dear, when you arrive at 4th density, then you will see.
Q: (L) Well, how in the heck am I supposed to get there if I can't "get it?"
A: Who says you have to "get it" before you get there?
Q: (L) Well, that leads back to: what is the wave going to do to expand this awareness? Because, if the wave is what "gets you there," what makes this so?
A: No. It is like this: After you have completed all your lessons in "third grade," where do you go?
Q: (L) You go to fourth grade.
A: Okay, now, do you have to already be in 4th grade in order to be allowed to go there? Answer.
Q: (L) No. But you have to know all the 3rd density things...
A: Yes. More apropos: you have to have learned all of the lessons.
Q: (L) What kind of lessons are we talking about here?
A: Karmic and simple understandings.
Q: (L) What are the key elements of these understandings, and are they fairly universal?
A: They are universal.
Q: (L) What are they?
A: We cannot tell you that.
Q: (L) Do they have to do with discovering the MEANINGS of the symbology of 3rd density existence, seeing behind the veil... and reacting to things according to choice? Giving each thing or person or event its due?
A: Okay. But you cannot force the issue. When you have learned, you have learned!

The point the C's are trying to make is that anyone who is IN this reality is here because that is where they "fit." And when one is in a particular reality, it is for the purpose of learning the lessons of that reality, NOT to try to learn the lessons of higher realities before one has arrived there! And one CANNOT "graduate" to a higher reality until one has mastered the lessons of THIS reality which the C's have described as karmic lessons and simple understandings - which are universal.
In trying to get to the issue in practical terms, the reader will note that I did have SOME idea of what the C's were saying in the above passage. I had been reviewing the writings of the Sufi Shaykh, Ibn al-Arabi at the time, and his exposition of discovering the "meanings" of the symbol system of our reality and "giving each thing his due" was what was on my mind. The reader who wishes to have a deeper understanding of this can refer to these writings or to our review and analysis of same in the Wave Series.
Discovering the "meanings" of things, in Sufi terms, means to "see the unseen truth."
But this perspicacity is more than that. The Shaykh writes:Perspicacity is a divine light just like the light which belongs to the eye of sight. When a person has this perspicacity, its mark is like the light of the sun through which sensory objects appear to sight. The light of the sun enables the being to differentiate among sensory objucts. It discerns the large from the small, the beautiful from the ugly, the white from the black, red, and yellow, the moving from the still, the far from the near, and the high from the low. In the same way, the light of perspicacity discerns the praiseworthy from the blameworthy.

This light unveils the movements of felicity pertaining to the next abode and the movements of wretchedness.
Some of the possessors of perspicacity have reached a point where, upon seeing a person's footprint in the ground - though the person himself is not present - they are able to say that he is a felicitous person or a wretched person. This is similar to what is done by a tracker who follows footprints.

The possessor of perspicacity perceives the REALITY of the ALL. He perceives the good things and the evil which occur in matters of this world and the next, the blameworthy qualities and the praiseworthy, the noble character traits and the base, and what is given by Nature and by the spiritual domain. [Futuhat, Book II 235,35]So, it seems that "who you are and what you see" is connected to seeing the unseen dynamic - discovering the meanings of the symbols of our world - in the events of our lives here in THIS reality, and utilizing this seeing to deal with karmic issues effectively, i.e. choosing. The Shaykh tells us:Man gains the light of perspicacity through assuming the noble character traist in perfect harmon, balance and equilibrium. [...] In order to bring the traits into balance, man has need of the divine physician. It is his task to show the seeker how to employ his innate character traits, since nothing can be added to man's creation. The "assumption of traits" which a person should undergo can NOT mean that he comes to posses traits which did not already belong to him. On the contrary, the traits which he possesses innately are redirected such that they will always be "felicitous."ALL character traits are of an individual's essence and cannot be "base" in an ontological sense because "everything that comes from God is good." Good and Evil have to be defined in terms of relative factors, which is to employ the Law of Three: There is good and evil and the specific situation in which it is to be determined which is which.
The attributes of human beings do not change and it is error to attempt to change them. These attributes include cowardice, avarice, envy, eagerness, desire, arrogance, harshness, seeking subjugation, and so on.
Since it is improper to try to change what IS, one must then find the proper application for such traits so that they can be directed according to one's soul orientation.
For example: One should be cowardly toward committing violence toward an innocent person or other violations of the free will of others because of the loss that one will experience as a consequence.
A positive application of avarice is that one should be avaricious in respect of seeking knowledge in order to "know God."
A person can be envious of someone who spends all his time and effort seeking God, and thereby seek to emulate him.
The seeker can be arrogant FOR God toward anyone who is arrogant toward God and the seeking of truth.
It is proper to be harsh toward, or to subjugate, anyone who is harsh or offensive toward or seeks to subjugate the seeking of truth.
The Shaykh writes: I do not know how it is that people suffer hardships of self denial since nothing is forbidden and suppressing the attributes of the nature is not required. On the contrary, the Law of God requires the proper application of all one's attributes.


Of course, it is in the "seeing" that we come to the problem. How is one to KNOW when any action leads to felicity or wretchedness? How many times have people done their best (or so they thought) and everything ended in disaster? Why, indeed, do we have the saying that "hindsight is 20/20?" Why is it only AFTER we have made a choice for a certain action that seems, on the surface, and by all the indicators, to be so RIGHT, that we discover that it was SO WRONG?
It is because we do NOT have perspicacity. We have not learned to properly read the symbol system of our reality. And this is what the C's meant by "simple understandings" being the key to learning the lessons of this reality.In order to even discuss what potential we, as human beings, may have, it might be useful to have a broader perspective on the problems we may be facing.

 

[Miss.K]

Thank you much everybody for pitching in.

I have some reading to do before continuing (lots of links), and the next week I won't be able to participate, as work will be fierce (since I spend all weekend here, and not working)
So I'll be back sometime in the start of next month.

This week have been very interesting and enlightening, and the energy here changes remarkably when interacting with you all.
(really I never felt anything like it), Thank you for that too.

Just a few remarks:

Obyvatel, even though you are so clever that I almost can't understand what you say, :) it was a very interesting post IMO, and I think that I'm getting closer to be able to ask the right question. And I have some questions to your post as well, that I hope it is OK I ask when I come back.

Truth seeker, to the question of what my understanding of Fate is.... I don't understand it.
This is exactly why I want to talk with you all about it, so that we can figure it out. The Astrology is in a way unimportant, it is Fate that I'm interested in figuring out what is.
Also like when we think about free will, and we realize that we can use our free will, but that it is not nice to impose it on others, or that it is more STO to respect other peoples free will, then I'd like to have some talks about Fate, which I'd say probably have similar rules, or things that are better to do if you wish to move towards STO.

Ever since I realized that events are shown in the horoscope, I've wanted to understand why, at first I also thought that it was vibrations from the planets or something, like the Moon makes the water come.
But I have come closer to thinking that they are like the arms of a watch, like they can be used to show the time, but have no meaning in themselves.

So it is the mechanics inside the watch that makes the arms move, that I want to understand.

Which has lead me to think of what predestined events are, and that must be Fate.

Fate was something everybody believed in in the old days, If something went wrong, people would say "It's Fate" If something went right, people would say "Fate smiled at you"
Then came the American constitution, that told us we are all created equal, and New age told us we create our own reality.
And now when things go wrong, it is either "you don't work hard enough" or "your too negative" when things go right it is because "you earned it" or "your positive"

And I've come to think that Fate and Free will are both facts.

So I want to get a better understanding of what it is

So this lead to the thought of Free will, and Fate at each end of the pole....



Thanks again all, really it's been wow

 

[bozadi]

One very good help of astrology in terms of raising one’s awareness of one’s “lessons” in some particular incarnation is the utilization of astrological interpretation of one’s “moon nodes.”

Hi bozadi,

I just came from the Jan Spiller site and it reads as a bit new agey to me. The same goes somewhat for the urmore site you listed. As far as I can see, neither of these sites back up their work with any research or information that clearly explains how they came by their information which, to me, raises suspicions. Also, can you explain, in your own words, what exactly psych-k is? I've already been to the corresponding website but would greatly appreciate it if you could clarify what your understanding of this is.

Just so you're aware, a large part of this forum is based on doing work on the self and learning to think for oneself which is unfortunately not as simple as many would have us believe. If you haven't already, you may be interested in reading or rereading the books suggested to MK.

Thank you, truth seeker, for your feedback.

My reference to Spiller’s web site was not for indicating a general approval actually, which I seem to have done unintentionally. I am sorry for this and thank you for your remark; I will try to be more careful about this. At least I can mention, or make it obvious, that a reference is not for showing a general approval.

I really don’t know what “psych-k” is, and my reference to that site was just because I found the extracts of Spiller’s related book in that site in a neat way. But, upon your remark, I noticed how hastily, incautiously and, perhaps, detrimentally, I did this. I must take note of this and be much more careful.

Spiller’s book on moon node sign interpretations was really good to me and many others around me. So I wanted you to have a look at it. I think this is something like benefiting from Louise L. Hay’s psychic/spiritual interpretations of our health symptoms. I believe that people like Spiller and Hay have some very valuable contributions to our understanding of ourselves and of universe, although they do have many new-agey manners, too. Approaching with caution and selectiveness is so important truly. I intend to take my own lesson (or part of a lesson) from this. Thank you again for your feedback.

 

[truth seeker]

No problem, bozadi. :) I did take note that you were careful to disable your links and that let me know to proceed with caution. The reason I decided to say anything was because you seemed so sure in your post that this was the way to go and I became concerned that Mk and others reading it (particularly newbies) might take all information on those pages as a recommendation and not apply critical thinking. In addition, I was concerned that it may feed into MK's slight identification with astrology/fate in which case doesn't really serve her.

I completely realize that you were trying to be of help, but many of us here are still learning in terms of being able to discern the information from the disinformation. So a statement like "proceed with caution" is usually a good way to go in such cases.

While I do find Hay's spiritual interpretations interesting, as you say, a good deal of her other material (in my opinion) seems to fall into new age thinking and 'think' should also be taken with a grain of salt. ;)

 

[SolarMother]

[So, maybe, it could have more to do with observing certain "signs" in the sky, while at the same time closely observing the earth signs.. and what`s happening around us, in the here and now and what "that" is telling us, in combination to whatever the stars or planets are doing?

In other words, if the earth is the interface, the crossroads, or receiver of this sort of information, then the earth itself and all life on it, "should be" intercepting the very thing the stars are potentially modeling, at the same "time".
And we should be aware of the possible ramifications of those signs, simply by observing what`s happening on the earth, around us.

Does that make sense?]

"Far too many people think the current house of the zodiac actually causes things to happen, instead of merely helping to track when things of the "symbolized" character, are likely to happen.

Well, put Meager1. I think MissK. has been trying very hard to say the same thing.
"As Above, So Below." Astrology is an excellent tool aiding some of us in the work we do here, and it takes many years of study to know how to use this language/symbolic tool correctly in the quest to 'know thyself.'
Everything in 3D has been corrupted including our alphabet, but we go on using it the best we can.

 

[1984]

Everything in 3D has been corrupted including our alphabet, but we go on using it the best we can.

If I read the above correctly, you are comparing a corrupted alphabet with corrupted astrology - would you explain what you mean in comparing the two? Not sure I am following you.

 

[Palinurus]

Hi all,

Interesting discussion.

As I'm currently reading the Bibliotheka Cassiopaea topic/thread, I came along the section about astrology today - starting here:
http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,27467.msg336462.html#msg336462

It's a rather short part which I'm going to quote integrally. I've put in bold what jumped out for me:

ASTROLOGY

Q: (L) Is astrology in general a false assumption? A: Astrology is a stepping stone to higher knowledge. (has variable influence on humans whether believer or skeptic) Q: (L) Is there, in 4th density, an equivalent to 3rd density astrology? A: Not needed there.

Q: If we could find the pieces and put them together, they would show us the drama and the connection between 3rd and 4th density? A: You would have to use the original astrology, before cosmic changes of a planetary nature; there was no Venus, for one example, and earth was oriented differently axially speaking. Q: And the destruction of Kantek. This was the last whitewash, the writings of Homer and so forth were put place... is there any source where we can get closer to these myths that will help us to figure out who is REALLY on first? A: Check the Isle of Man. Q: Okay. Now, next question: I understand that Libra was added to the zodiac and broke scorpio and virgo apart. Were there originally 10 or 11 signs in the zodiac? A: Originally? Q: You know what I mean! A: There have been many combinations. Q: Well, when did the present 12 sign zodiac begin to be established as it is? A: 1302 A.D. Q: And how many signs were there before that? A: 11 Q: That’s what I thought. What is the source of the oldest zodiac available to us? A: Atlantis. Q: Well, fine, what is the oldest extant source in terms of writings? A: Egypt. A: The art of astrology lies within the interpretations of the astrologer, and if accurate, it is because of psychic talents. Same as with all methods, they are merely mediums.
Q: Well, I don’t think I am going to get any more on it. Now, next question: in playing with my 11 house zodiac, it became apparent that, in order for it to work properly, the circle must be converted from 360 degrees to 330 degrees. Now, this made me think about the degrees in a circle. With a 360 degree circle, the total as well as all the cardinal points are numbers that total 9. Frank and I have examined this idea of numbers having some sort of ‘frequency’ effect on all things, and it seems to be true in a VERY deep sense. So, all our measurements on our globe are based on the number 9, and this is NOT a friendly number! The ancient gods were known as ‘they who measure,’ and this imposition of a 360 degree circle on our world, and a 12 sign zodiac, is part of a system that imposes a frequency or vibration on our reality that is quite destructive. It perpetuates the negative existence. Am I getting close to the proper understanding here? A: The proper understanding is more important than how it was reached.

Q: In the same vein, I have noticed that there are two classes of arachnids. There are scorpions and there are spiders. The zodiac was changed by taking the pincers away from the Scorpion and creating out of them the sign of Libra. This image was one of a woman holding a balance scales, usually blindfolded. This was done within recorded history, but was probably formalized through the occult traditions of Kaballa. Now, in trying to figure out who has on what color hat, if there is such a thing, I have come to a tentative conclusion that the spider, or spinner of webs, is the Rosicrucian encampment, and that the Scorpion represents the seeker of wisdom... because, in fact, the word for Scorpio comes from the same root as that which means to pierce or unveil. Therefore, the Scorpion is also Perseus, per Ziu, or ‘for God.’ And the Rosicrucians are the ‘other,’ so to speak. Q: Another derivation of the word root of Scorpio is ‘skopos,’ or ‘to see.’ You said that the human race was seeded on a planet in the constellation Scorpio, and, therefore, when the zodiac was set up and the clues were laid out, it seems to me that the insertion of the sign of Libra was designed to take power away from human beings, to take their hands away, to prevent them from seeing, to make them defenseless. Is this imagery close? A: On track. Q: And the Scorpion is represented in four ways: the scorpion, the lizard, the eagle and the dove. So, there are four levels of experience. Also, Minerva/Athena was the daughter of Zeus alone. She was known as the ‘tamer of horses,’ and was a Virgin Goddess. She was also known as ‘Parthenos’ meaning separation. Is this part of the imagery of the creation of Eve from the rib of Adam, so to speak, or the separation of knowledge from soul, or the veil between the world of 3rd density and 4th density? A: Close. Q: Along this same line, in the astrological symbology, the different stars are designated as being located on different parts of the body in a rather arbitrary way that does not seem to necessarily have a lot to do with the actual configuration of the stars themselves. King Cepheus in the sign of Aries, the consort of Cassiopaea, has a star in the right shoulder. The name of this star in Arabic means ‘redeemer. In the imagery of the crucifixion, Jesus is depicted as carrying the cross on his shoulder as if to say that he is the old king who must die to make way for the new one... Additionally, many of us have been experiencing the pain in the shoulder, arm, and shoulder-blade for some time. You have, on occasion, related this to DNA changes. Is it that certain individuals are connected to other densities through the windows of the stars in certain constellations, and the clues are found in the location of the stars in the figures of the constellations relating to the areas of the body where pockets in the etheric field are points of activation of DNA, and that these relate to certain pains and discomforts? Q: Obviously this is a big one... it relates directly to the crossed shin bones, the skull, the shoulderblades, knees, elbows and a lot of other symbology... the exposed breast of the Masonic initiate. In the Bible where it says that Jesus was scourged, it is actually a word that usually means the pressing and squeezing that cause milk to express from the breast. On page 33 of ‘Bringers of the Dawn,’ Barbara Marciniak writes: ‘there have been different portals on earth that have allowed different species, creator gods from space, to insert themselves. One of the huge portals that presently being fought over is the portal of the Middle East. If you think back over the history of the Earth, you will realize how many dramas of religion and civilization have been introduced in that portal. It’s a huge portal with a radius of 1,000 miles or so. This is why there is so much activity in the Middle East. This is the portal that the Lizzies use.’ Could you comment on that information. Are there other portals that are that large which are used by positive entities? A: Portal is dual.
Q: Okay, part of the ancient legend of Arktos was that, in very ancient times the Earth was different because it had a vertical axial orientation. This contributed to the golden age or the Edenic condition. Is this, in fact, one of the conditions that existed in the Golden Age? A; Well, yes, but still some puzzle pieces needed. Q: I noticed also that there are several ball-park type figures given for the precessional cycles. Apparently there is not a whole lot of agreement as to how long this cycle is, exactly. I notice that, if you divide 309,882 years by 12, you come out right in the ball park of 12 precessional cycles. Is this the reason that the zodiac was set up with twelve signs or houses? A: Related, yes. Q: Now, since all the recent conjecture about the precessional cycle has really gone all over the place, it is my thought that the real reason for the ancient clues about this cycle are to inform us that the length of 12 of these cycles is a GRAND Cycle, and that THIS is the big clue. A: Needs some study by you.

In passing, one can clearly notice here the limitations of dougquaid's method of compilation - but that's another discussion alltogether (see over there).

Hope this helps a bit...