Bird Flu, Swine Flu, Vaccines

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on_strike_usaexpat said:
or plan D - You will take this "vaccine" with a gun pointed to your head; its for your own good ya know...
Yes, especially with Bush recommending mandatory vaccinations if the 'bird flu' reaches the states. I've been trying to figure out a way around getting an injection if the time comes that they are mandatory, but I've not gotten far. I'm assuming that an injection certificate will be required, or in cases where a certificate can not be produced, they might even do a blood titre to see if you have the accepted level of anti-bodies in your blood. A certificate can be faked - the titre, probably a bit harder to do if possible at all. I don't spend much time thinking about it, but it has popped into my mind a few times, any other ideas out there?
 
Yeah, Anart, it would be wise to find some solution beforehead. Maybe it's good to check who would issue the certificates. A couple of years I was preparing to go to Mongolia, so I went to proper medical center to get recommended vaccinations (I wasn't aware of what's going on behind the curtains then). Vaccination certificate was simply a piece of paper (a thin book with couple of pages) with a barcode sticker taken from the vaccine package, hand written date of vaccination, medical worker signature and a stamp. So, it wouldn't be difficult to fake that kind of stuff, make an agreement with someone in the position to produce such thing. Maybe before it is mandatory it would be easier, maybe the rules aren't very tight yet. But when the mandatory vaccination becomes officialy declared, when the state machine will get involved with all it's beaurocracy, scrutiny and enforcement - it won't be easy. For example they would issue some plastic vaccination carts with holograms, id vaccination cards, kind of stuff that is produced on a mass scale by some 'private' contractor - and to fake this it would be very expensive, or even impossible. In the same time, maybe people with 'paper' certs will only be required to exchange the cert for a 'brand improved, trendy, glossy fancy plastic card' without any blood check.

And..heh, isn't mandatory vaccination in conflict with your constitution? I know that nowadays it's almost useless to cite constitutional rights, because the psychopatic thughs do what they do anyway, but who knows. If there are people who know how to deal with US police driving a car without driving licence (which in fact is required if someone is carrying passengers for profit and in a couple of other cases, but not really required for common citizen using the road - at least I read this on a numerous patriot movement pages), maybe there are also legal ways to avoid vaccination and get away with it? I know, one would probably have to spend half a day at police station EXPLAINING in SPECIAL EXACT phrases, why one isn't obliged to produce vaccination cert and where it is written in a constitution, but... some people are willing to bother ;)
 
http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/alllife/virus.html
The above link gives "Introduction to viruses" I am posting a paragraph from the top of the article and the last paragraph. Especially the sentence that says viruses are used extensively in genetic engineering is quite interesting. I also think that some people are tempering with this virus. I have read somewhere that since the viruses can change their outer shell protein, they can fool the host's immune system. The host will not recognize the virus and the virus acts just like a parasite, invading the cell and using the cell material to replicate itself, killing the host cell in the process.
When I googled viruses there were 252 million sites (some were the pc viruses of course) but there is extensive knowledge about them.
http://www.tulane.edu/~dmsander/Big_Virology/BVHomePage.html
This link gives classification of viruses according to their genetic make-up and also according to the hosts that they invade. It seems that a lot of research has been done on the subject and that some people can genetically engineer more deadly strains of the virus. Of course it is playing with fire but maybe with their wishful thinking they might think they will be exempt from it somehow.

When it comes into contact with a host cell, a virus can insert its genetic material into its host, literally taking over the host's functions. An infected cell produces more viral protein and genetic material instead of its usual products. Some viruses may remain dormant inside host cells for long periods, causing no obvious change in their host cells (a stage known as the lysogenic phase). But when a dormant virus is stimulated, it enters the lytic phase: new viruses are formed, self-assemble, and burst out of the host cell, killing the cell and going on to infect other cells.
On the other hand, because viruses can transfer genetic material between different species of host, they are extensively used in genetic engineering. Viruses also carry out natural "genetic engineering": a virus may incorporate some genetic material from its host as it is replicating, and transfer this genetic information to a new host, even to a host unrelated to the previous host. This is known as transduction, and in some cases it may serve as a means of evolutionary change -- although it is not clear how important an evolutionary mechanism transduction actually is.
 
Well I had not even thought about mandatory vaccinations except to recognize that I won't be getting one. As far as the consequenses of not getting one, and how to circumvent them, I'll have to wait and see. :)
 
I'm sure bird flu is not rare as a general condition. It has always existed in one form or another. And human flues have also existed.

rs said:
There is a chance that the specific combination of bird flu and human flu when present in the same cell, will mutate into a virus with the virulence of the bird flu (so it contains deadly bird flu genetics) with the protein coat of human viruses (so it will penetrate human cell membranes) and become infectious.
If the above scenario could so easily happen, why are we not seeing pandemics more often? It does seem that a helping hand is needed, since certain factions may not be patient for nature to do their work for them. And if this helping hand is provided, can those providing it truly protect themselves from the results? Is such a mode of population culling practical even for the pathocrat?

Of course, proper "vaccinations" can expedite the effect, and H5N1 may be a red herring for something else transmitted through that medium. It seems to me the last thing a control freak psychopath would want is a runaway pandemic. These are very calculating people...
 
j0da said:
And..heh, isn't mandatory vaccination in conflict with your constitution?
What is this "constitution" thing of which you speak? Some of our elders speak of such a thing having existed before the Great Darkness, but it is best not to talk of such things...
 
EsoQuest said:
If the above scenario could so easily happen, why are we not seeing pandemics more often?
Depends on your definition of "often". Flu pandemics really are common, they happen every year, usually during the winter. What does not happen often is that a given pandemic is caused by a virus that has a high mortality. Usually diseases or parasites that kill their hosts are pruned from the Darwinian tree. It is not good to kill your host, you only want to drain it of resources (energy). (Perfect STS analogy, IMHO).

Also what is different today vs. previous times is that the velocity of propagation is increased by orders of magnitude due to our modern lifestyle. A couple of sneezes on an airplane and you can spread a disease literally worldwide in a single day. This is without precedent for thousands and thousands of years.

Also the population density and therefore animal/human interaction is under orders of magnitude more stress. While it is true that we have raised animals for food for thousands of years, the "factory" type environments we have today are again without precedent. Raising animals used to be more like a family thing, a handful of chickens, a few goats, etc. Being in the presence of tens of thousands of the same animal in a small confined space is a very new phenomenon. 100 years ago, a chicken that died of bird flu (or even just started to look sickly) probably got eaten that night for dinner, killing any of the virus.

I am willing to bet that deadly viruses have been being created all along, but except for the occasional "Black Death" kind of thing, they tend to fizzle out of by themselves due to their own virulence. Our modern lifestyle dramatically shifts the statistics, however.

Update:

Don't get me wrong, I am not buying into the whole "Be afraid, be very afraid" thing here, but -if- we find ourselves with something resembling a legitimite pandemic, it will have been greatly assisted in its emergence, either directly through genetic engineering or indirectly by biasing natural processes through directed behavior.

I also agree that the whole vaccine thing ties into it because one way to bias the statistics is to make sure that people most likely to be exposed to avian flu are *also* exposed to a vaccine. Vaccines contain genetic material, after all. Except through vaccination it is hard to guarantee that a specific individual will be the petri dish for both strains.

The "accidental on purpose" scenario has nothing to do with any of this, of course. This scenario is just simply biological warfare.
 
DonaldJHunt said:
j0da said:
And..heh, isn't mandatory vaccination in conflict with your constitution?
What is this "constitution" thing of which you speak? Some of our elders speak of such a thing having existed before the Great Darkness, but it is best not to talk of such things...
I sure wish that was a joke.


=/
 
Thank you RS.
I also felt a call to straighten out certain things. So yes of course viruses do mutate. They not only mutate, they also undergo a process called recombination wherein similar genes (or parts thereof), are swapped amongst similar viruses.
That "Brojon site" from which the first citation came in the post that opened this thread is full of small mistakes (some blatantly so, others in a more sneaky way). Maybe just some additional information …

Influenza is an RNA virus. It carries 8 RNA molecules. It is an envelope virus which means that it pinches off small parts of the host cell’s outer “border”, a phospholipids bilayer. This could explain why the phenomenon of transduction (infection from one species, say duck, to another species, say pig or human) is hindered. The membrane that has been pinched off the host cell, and that is now the outer envelope of the viral particle, can still carry all kinds of immunogenic determinants (a characteristic glycosylation for instance) that can ease recognition by the immune system of the newly infected species. But the main parts of the outer edge of a viral particle (and what can contact and thus inform the immune system, at least that is generally believed to be the case), have a viral origin. In the case of the influenza virus it is mainly the Hemaglutinin protein and the Neuraminidase protein. These ARE genetically encoded by the virus, and NOT by the host cell as the Brojon site states. And that is the main hindrance (IMO) for infection from one species to another. The hemaglutinin does not perfectly fit (like a key in a lock) to specific receptors on the new host cell so that infection is hindered.

But when infection does happen, which is a matter of “Russian roulette”, they CAN turn out to be way more virulent. As rs has said

rs said:
What does not happen often is that a given pandemic is caused by a virus that has a high mortality. Usually diseases or parasites that kill their hosts are pruned from the Darwinian tree. It is not good to kill your host, you only want to drain it of resources (energy). (Perfect STS analogy, IMHO).
Yes, those that kill the host are those that kill themselves, and thus decrease their spreading towards new hosts, i.e. such mortality decreases their potential to …exist (those that exist are those that can spread). Our rapid contacting of other potential hosts all over the world could augment the risk of a serious amount of people being killed in the process. But in the end such virulent and killing viruses will disappear, thereby ever decreasing the chances to become infected by a deadly one. Those that know something like this in advance could very well count on this.

The PTB, do calculate, but they also love “roulette” I think.

And thus, apart from our modern life styles (body traffic, mainly) I recognize several other processes that increase the chances of a new form spreading from human to human. I think it is important to take these into account as well. Whether there could be a conscious will behind this, I can not proof yet, but the path of entropy (STS) is one of ignorance, and this is also present in science and very much so in the health industry.

- all that decreases the immune response (few examples: lack of silver, lack of decent sleep, exposure to radiation, chronic stress, triclosan, dioxin, antibiotics, any sort of vaccination as such, thymerosal, alumina, fluor, lots of chlorinated and fluorinated “organic” molecules like found in 70 to 80 percent of our classic medication, and on and on and on).
- The use of Tamiflu as a prophylactic. Just imagine. This snake oil pill was sold out in Belgium during the autumn little “hype”. But people were, and still are wrongly informed. Rummy has made a lot of money, as he was the main stockholder on Gilead sciences, outlicensed to Roche that was producing Tamiflu (little correction: Oseltamivir is not an extract from staranise. An extract is used as a precursor in further synthesis)
- Spread of “attenuated” influenza viruses by means of prophylactic vaccination against influenza infection.

The latter two increases the possibility of infection from one species to the next, and the recombination between distinct influenza viruses so that new viruses will emerge that can also spread from human to human. But it just doesn’t seem to work the way they calculated it seems. How many years have we been stuffed with that H5N1 hype by now ???

Ok,
still we DO see an effect already of all processes named. Only, it is not happening in the human population, it is happening in the bird population. The birds do die you know, which is not exactly … hmm as nature would run it’s course.
Remember though that birds feed a lot of people on this globe.

If we remain vigilant we will be perfectly capable to calculate whether it has been spread "naturally", or artificially. Think "vaccination" for instance. But there's lots of possibilities. Still, all will leave their mark, I think.
 
EsoQuest said:
It does seem that a helping hand is needed, since certain factions may not be patient for nature to do their work for them. And if this helping hand is provided, can those providing it truly protect themselves from the results? Is such a mode of population culling practical even for the pathocrat?

Of course, proper "vaccinations" can expedite the effect, and H5N1 may be a red herring for something else transmitted through that medium. It seems to me the last thing a control freak psychopath would want is a runaway pandemic. These are very calculating people...
I'm fairly certain that if there is a "pandemic" that nature will have received a helping pathocratic hand to make it so.

It appears to me that this sort of potential population culling using a virus that can potentially mutate further must be concerning to the pathocrats. How to kill just enough but not too many?? How to not kill themselves accidentally?? How to not create a global pandemic that they have no vaccine or antidote for?? Maybe all those detention centers being built are for quarantine purposes in case things go wrong. The whole idea of unleashing a pandemic (even a "controlled" one) should make those contemplating it very uneasy.

My guess is that it is basically a hoax with the idea to create more fear, sell more tamiflu, justify further civil liberties restrictions, and inject everyone with some vile substance (in the form of vaccine) that makes people even more unaware and asleep than they are already.
 
Thank's for all the info. Those of us who are not biology literate are often confused by a media that seems to be promoting half truths from all directions. I have been reading over the "alternative sites" since this "pandemic" started moving toward Europe, and nobody really managed to spell out a balanced report of the situation.

I agree that conditions in modern society can promote spread of disease much easier than in the far past, but at the same time we are not living in the conditions that favoured "Black Death" type plagues, which is probably why there seems to be a concerted effort to undermine the immune systems of as many people as possible.

Collective immune system undermining seems to be too slow to create ideal lethal pandemic spreading conditions, and where I live the news at least once a month goes on a rant that if parents do not get their infants and children IMMEDIATELY vaccinated they will be responsible for their immanent deaths. Then the news lets off on this. Then it starts again. It almost seems like some kind of behavioral experiment to me, although anything attempted by these pathocratic causes probably has several purposes nested in each other.

Even so the majority of the people I talked to have a real suspicion of vaccinations. Many who have been vaccinated for one reason or another before have gotten sick from it, especially those taking the medically advised yearly "flu shot". So it's not going to be that easy to drag people into innoculation. It's one thing to take something like the undermining of the US constitution lying down, for example, and quite another to be physically ordered to have your body violated.

I think the powers that be still have their think tanks working 24/7 mulling that one over...
 
EsoQuest said:
Collective immune system undermining seems to be too slow to create ideal lethal pandemic spreading conditions, and where I live the news at least once a month goes on a rant that if parents do not get their infants and children IMMEDIATELY vaccinated they will be responsible for their immanent deaths. Then the news lets off on this. Then it starts again. It almost seems like some kind of behavioral experiment to me, although anything attempted by these pathocratic causes probably has several purposes nested in each other.
Yes, indeed. And that is amazing. It does seem to be some kind of behavioral experiment. Only, in an experiment you would try to isolate two groups with a separation line that cuts almost randomly through the population. As such you would have “control groups” over a wide scale of differing parameters. And thus, what remains incomprehensible is that the phenomenon that you describe is almost a global phenomenon. It’s everywhere. But than the experimenters are without “control groups” spanning many different parameters?

And thus, it is a legitimate question to ask oneself whether this is the fruit of something random and results from ignorance and apathy(again?) wherein an unwieldy and heavy burocratic system is trying to prove its fast ‘caring’, or is it something else? Biological (economic) warfare, or something that would be part of population “control”?

Heck, maybe some “thing” even has its control groups, and all and everything is charted just perfectly. And here I am not only thinking of behavioral experiments.

In the end of course, I truly don’t know. But the dilemma as to what exactly happens still remains.
 
For those who noticed, I also included Tamiflu itself as one of the potential culprits that could give a helping hand to ignite a pandemic. I am sure that most people will understand the other factors I have summoned that could decrease the strength of our immune system. But there could be some active pushes as well…

When I heard how Tamiflu was connected to Rummy, I knew that it was time to do a double-check on the efficacy of Tamiflu for coping with Influenza infections. What I will try to demonstrate in this short post is not only how Tamiflu is ex-planed to work. As such it could indeed sort of mitigate the natural process of infection, but it could also possibly facilitate the creation of new recombinant forms.

At a later stage during infection, an infected host cell will be transformed into a factory that starts to bud immense amounts of viral particles. For each viral particle a small part of the outer cell membrane of the host cell is pinched off. This happens at such high rate that the host cell will finally die in the process, as if it was bleeding to death. The pinched off part of the membrane of the host cell has several proteins attached to its outer edge which are genetically encoded by the virus. The most crucial ones are Hemaglutinine and Neuraminidase. Hemaglutinine is the classic target for the production of vaccins and Neuraminidase is a protein that is crucial in the above-described process called “budding”. It has enzymatic activity and cleaves a protein of the host cell, so that the viral bud can be fully released into the environment.

The molecule Tamiflu works as glue between Neuraminidase and this particular protein of the host cell. The enzymatic activity is blocked so that the latter step of final release into the environment no longer happens. Infected cells therefore no longer shed massive amounts of free particles to infect other cells. The disease is thereby mitigated (if the virus was still sensitive to Tamiflu that is!), and infection spreads at a slower rate.

But, instead of being freed to infect other cells, the viral particles, after massive production within the cells and massive formation of buds, now remain and are collected on the outer surface of the infected cell.

This is a visual description of the mechanism that is used to explain the action of Tamiflu on influenza.

moaspread-med.jpg


If this does not work you can still find it overhere:
http://www.tamiflu.com/hcp/neuramin/neura_index.asp

What follows is personal conjecture, but look at the above-described picture, and you will see how this conjecture only follows from logic deduction. Compare the upper panel with a natural infection and the lower panel where the effect of Tamiflu is shown.

Is it possible that such cells are stopped in the process of producing more particles, to the point that the infected cell doesn’t really die anymore. Such cell (treated with Tamiflu) could very well go into a dormant state but than with massive amounts of viral particles sticking to its outer membrane?
Now that could be a good trigger for all sorts of autoimmune diseases, but apart from this …
How is one supposed to get rid of all those viral particles when they are glued so strongly to the infected cells? Okay, you are no longer sick, like you don’t have high fever, and can’t leave bed, but I’d like to clear my system as good as possible, and not have them in any sort of dormant state.
Any dormant state is an accident waiting to happen in the future. By that time one may have an infection with another variety of influenza, or simply have come into contact and thus carry other types like H5N1, or attenuated forms that were administered during vaccination. In other words, your system will than carry a potpourri of different types of viruses. And these will recombine (swap genetic information) in no time at all.

The picture that I have directed you to is no longer the picture that the site will direct you to from it’s main page to explain the action of Tamiflu. Perhaps, the picture gives away too much :P From the main entrance the site now directs readers to :

http://www.tamiflu.com/consumer_howitworks.asp

Woeha !! Now, that is some different “animation”. And it says or explains nothing. In this one all of a sudden, the viral particles remain within the cell? This is impossible!! As Influenza belongs to the envelope viruses, a particle is only formed by pinching off a small patch of the cellular membrane of the infected host, during a process called “budding”. But in this animation, there is no budding, and despite the absence of budding, viral particles are still shown. Moreover, they are shown to be inside the cell, and to remain in the cell. My goodness!! This is a LIE. Or at least a gross negligence, and it’s fruit deceives.

Might be worth to save the image (the first one!). It could soon disappear and no longer be available to our human knowledge.
 
I have been watching this ugly government bird flu game, too and immediately sensed that this would be their method to control or decimate the population. Not to mention the vaccinations-that I would guarantee will do more harm than good. They have been carefully planting a seed and coaxing it along in the media. I suspect that they plan to set it or something else lose at some time. I knew it was serious when today in the ABC news, one of the headlines was bird flu and what to do to prepare. They are recommending that everyone store six weeks worth of food! That tells me that the big event is getting closer. The biggest and most frightening part of this is the "shelter in place" edict that they are expecting local governments to enforce. When most Americans ignored last years terrorist alerts to "shelter in place", they figured they needed to come up with another plan. Keep us scared and in our houses. Easier to control with military and less likely to evacuate!
 
Regarding the US, I see many scenarios of fear all converging to one end: martial law. It is not inconceible that vaccination-induced infection and poisoning can generate a limited outbreak, which can be controlled, but which will also be enough to lock people in their houses until the storm troopers take over.

It may be that the USA is a concentrated experiment in imposing martial law on the western world, just like China is an experiment in internet suppression.
 

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