Coronavirus Pandemic: Apocalypse Now! Or exaggerated scare story?

[Agron]

I thought few days ago this will subside but I was wrong (some wishfull thinking on my part for sure). Croatian msm is raising the bar with their panic inducing headlines. Nevermind that they cite medical establishment as it is the God's truth.... and as you know most will gobble it up. Its safe to say that all this is turbo ultra interesting to watch.
Panic can be seen in individuals, but its rare for now. Shelfs in stores are getting refills so there are no shortages yet. But Ive seen headlines that take care of that (something like :will there be shortages soon or not?).
And the idiotic newspapers (and tv and radio which I dont use) are pushing all sorts of catastrophic projections, right on cue. Now its a question will this "epidemic" endure into summer or not, 3 "experts" with usual msm expert opinions. Ministers from our govt. are saying borders will be closed and we will have to learn to live in a new restricted enviroment. Main hospital for the east part of the city will be evacuated because 2 doctors got infected and it will be used specially for respiratory problems. And all that for 50 supposed positive tests and 745 still in the cue. Quite insane and very very telling. In this kind of enviroment you are forced to stock up on essentials.
Ive even heard that schools will be closed and the classess will be done on-line so we shouldnt worry if we loose internet access.
Makes you think about all sorts of things and possibilities for the PTBs doesnt it?
Words from the mouth of one of the ministers:

Our life will start to change a little more seriously in order to protect our neighbors, we must take responsibility for ourselves and others. We will introduce tomorrow a whole package of measures that affect both the economy and social life in Croatia - Bozinovic said.
He added that closing borders is one way to respond to the introduction of the virus in Croatia.
- We hereby appeal to people not to travel and we will certainly limit the number of natural persons entering Croatia. It is important that the supply and freight traffic go because it should not be questioned - he said.

OBRAĆANJE STOŽERA ZA CIVILNU ZAŠTITU Beroš: 'Upravo ulazimo u treću fazu obrane od koronavirusa, apeliramo na starije da ne izlaze ako ne moraju'

www.jutarnji.hr

The tone that they set is like its the bubonic plague. Way way too fear inducing compared to some real dangers and the way msm dealt with those in the past. So to me this still looks like this is done for the purpose of implementing new manipulative measures on the society while people are getting the flu in the flu season and an economic crash is looming. And now populations are also becoming scared shitless. Not a good combo.
And we know what is ALL on the menu for us. No cash, a chip, social credits, behave in the vestibule of real living hell or die... But I dont think they are ready for this at this point yet (is this wishfull thinking? I cant decide.) so that is one of the reasons I think this was not planned as such. I see some weird patterns that make me think the PTBs dont have it under control and are somewhat "flying around like flys without a head". Something like: Lets do all that we can and what passes -ok, what doesnt -ok. Casaulties? Who cares... ". Anyone else has this feeling or am I "crazy"?

I also think its of great importance to be calm and centered in times like this! That will help anyone thats around us and maybe they will help others. If only we could induce a chain reaction of total calmness and self-confidence to sweep the world, eh? We have to play this one smartly!!!

At least now we know that in our past lifetimes we were all cursed with that famous "May you live in interesting times" curse.

Be safe everyone.

Regards

Agron

 

[luc]

I'm not so sure this is a very good point, but it would depend on what he actually means.

The context was this: he shows that on the average flu season, if you go to a hospital in a town of 100k, you will find around 50 patients with a form of Coronavirus. Of course, by definition, these are very sick (they wouldn't be in hospital otherwise). He talks specifically about those in ICU and respiratory stations, such as cases with severe pneumonia, where an average of 30% will die of the illness. What happened now is that they have this test for coronavirus (which in itself might be very unreliable and test positive for other stuff) and go around the hospitals testing people. He claims that if you test severe cases of pneumonia, you would expect around 10% of those people testing positive for coronavirus. He says given all of that, it's perfectly to be expected in a normal flu season to find the "corona deaths" we are now seeing that way. He also makes the point that oftentimes, it's multiple strands which cause the flu, and other "superimposed" illnesses such as bacterial infections that attack an already weakened immune system. But the test only says "coronavirus found", so it tells us very little about what's really going on, if it is actually dangerous or not, more or less dangerous than other strains etc.

Quote from the video (google translate):

And if you do these tests shortly before the end of your life with the people who are seriously ill, you will also find corona viruses in ten percent of the cases. They are mostly very old ones I have seen that over 80 years over 80 years on average with those people [in Italy] with whom you are testing. And what they had was partly cancer, they have severe heart diseases and of course then die if something else comes along be that influenca or corona viruses, we do not know if they died of corona viruses, even those in Italy
nothing and we only know that for those who died, corona viruses were found in the test, that's what we know, but we don't know if corona disease, if the corona flu, let's say if it's more dangerous, we can't say anything and if you just jump to conclusions it just shows you have no idea about epidemiology.

 

[Regulattor]

I thought few days ago this will subside but I was wrong (some wishfull thinking on my part for sure). Croatian msm is raising the bar with their panic inducing headlines. Nevermind that they cite medical establishment as it is the God's truth.... and as you know most will gobble it up. Its safe to say that all this is turbo ultra interesting to watch.
Panic can be seen in individuals, but its rare for now. Shelfs in stores are getting refills so there are no shortages yet. But Ive seen headlines that take care of that (something like :will there be shortages soon or not?).
And the idiotic newspapers (and tv and radio which I dont use) are pushing all sorts of catastrophic projections, right on cue. Now its a question will this "epidemic" endure into summer or not, 3 "experts" with usual msm expert opinions. Ministers from our govt. are saying borders will be closed and we will have to learn to live in a new restricted enviroment. Main hospital for the east part of the city will be evacuated because 2 doctors got infected and it will be used specially for respiratory problems. And all that for 50 supposed positive tests and 745 still in the cue. Quite insane and very very telling. In this kind of enviroment you are forced to stock up on essentials.
Ive even heard that schools will be closed and the classess will be done on-line so we shouldnt worry if we loose internet access.
Makes you think about all sorts of things and possibilities for the PTBs doesnt it?
Words from the mouth of one of the ministers:

OBRAĆANJE STOŽERA ZA CIVILNU ZAŠTITU Beroš: 'Upravo ulazimo u treću fazu obrane od koronavirusa, apeliramo na starije da ne izlaze ako ne moraju'

www.jutarnji.hr

The tone that they set is like its the bubonic plague. Way way too fear inducing compared to some real dangers and the way msm dealt with those in the past. So to me this still looks like this is done for the purpose of implementing new manipulative measures on the society while people are getting the flu in the flu season and an economic crash is looming. And now populations are also becoming scared shitless. Not a good combo.
And we know what is ALL on the menu for us. No cash, a chip, social credits, behave in the vestibule of real living hell or die... But I dont think they are ready for this at this point yet (is this wishfull thinking? I cant decide.) so that is one of the reasons I think this was not planned as such. I see some weird patterns that make me think the PTBs dont have it under control and are somewhat "flying around like flys without a head". Something like: Lets do all that we can and what passes -ok, what doesnt -ok. Casaulties? Who cares... ". Anyone else has this feeling or am I "crazy"?

I also think its of great importance to be calm and centered in times like this! That will help anyone thats around us and maybe they will help others. If only we could induce a chain reaction of total calmness and self-confidence to sweep the world, eh? We have to play this one smartly!!!

At least now we know that in our past lifetimes we were all cursed with that famous "May you live in interesting times" curse.

Be safe everyone.

Regards

Agron

Nothing new. They are just following the script, although the chief epidemiologist sad that they have opposed to implement total lock down of the country according to WHO rules in spite of the fact that they have all conditions met. We will see how tomorrow goes. It will be economic suicide for ripped off country like Croatia to cease all activities. Unfortunately, knowing how our spineless leaders have run the country for the last decades I have no confidence in their ability to meet the challenge for the benefit of their people.

 

[Joe]

Not disagreeing, just relaying where the wind seems to be blowing.

Based on the bare facts and numbers, this particular wind never got up to more than a gentle breeze.

It won't go away, it'll get worse into April before it gets better (if it does).

There is zero evidence to support that thesis. In fact, there is negative evidence given that corona viruses are standard "flu like viruses" and as a general rule, such viruses are widely active only in the winter.

The epidemic in the US is mostly silent at the moment. There will be other hotspots that will form in coming weeks. I can envisage a Katrina moment where a large city gets caught bad and chaos ensues.

Sounds like the same kind of baseless statements made by the media and governments. The "epidemic is silent". Really? So it's the same as if there is no actual epidemic. But it's "silent" so it's really there, even if there's no evidence for it.

"The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" - Donald Rumsfeld talking crap about the WOT.

What you can envisage is perhaps made up mostly of images implanted in your head by the MSM and govt.

If I was you, I'd expect the madness to continue for a while yet and keep my ears to the ground.

No doubt the madness will continue for a while, but that has, at this point, no relevance whatsoever to what this flu like virus is actually doing. This is an "the emperor has no clothes" moment, and most people are applauding wildly at the sartorial splendor of the naked regent.

 

[Agron]

Unfortunately, knowing how our spineless leaders have run the country for the last decades I have no confidence in their ability to meet the challenge for the benefit of their people.

As usual we are left to our own devices, at least thats my lifelong experience. Also nothing new, right?

 

[Adaryn]

Oh, those naughty, unruly French!
The authorities are NOT happy about it. Expect mandatory total confinement pretty soon.

"Irresponsible"? In spite of the restrictions, French men and women continue (massively) to gather outside

There are dozens, hundreds even according to the photos, under the sun of this Sunday in March, going out for walks, strolling in the parks, going to the markets. All this would be a beautiful beginning of spring if on Saturday evening, the authorities had not asked everyone not to go out any more, in front of the coronavirus.

Édouard Philippe's appeal on Saturday evening was clear: in addition to closing down "non-essential" public places, the Prime Minister called on French men and women to assume their responsibilities, and to stop going out without good reason. "We must all together show more discipline in the application of these measures (...) We must avoid gathering as much as possible, limit friendly and family gatherings," he explained.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1239161728858042371

A message that fell on deaf ears? This Sunday, on social networks, we saw a lot of pictures of crowded open-air public places, such as the Aligre market in the 12th arrondissement of Paris, full of passers-by. The keyword #Irresponsible has developed to denounce this behaviour - at the same time as it was used to denounce the lack of firm action by the government until Saturday night.

Yet the measures are clear: outdoors and indoors, people must not gather in large numbers. The good weather on Sunday didn't help, and Parisian parks were also crowded, as these photos posted on Twitter in the afternoon by users show. These users were also reproached for going out... because otherwise, they would not have been able to take these pictures.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1239207916818833410

On the quays of the Canal Saint-Martin, the situation is even more ubuesque, with passers-by clustered on the banks of the canal, with a very close proximity. Same observation a few streets higher up, in the 19th arrondissement, near the Parc de la Villette. Tourist places, such as the Montmartre Hill or the pedestrian bank roads, were still very busy.

And elsewhere in France, what is the situation? It seems to depend on the cities: in Grenoble, for example, although all the parks have been closed by the city council, there are still green spaces without gates, and these too are well filled, noted Virginie Salanson, a journalist for France Bleu.

Conversely, in Perpignan, our reporter Maxence Lambrecq was able to see that the streets of the city were deserted - and under a sky grayer than the rest of the country.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1239202104616640512

French men and women who continue to go out despite the bans and the dangers of the coronavirus epidemic seem to have a strong desire to gather by the water's edge and in green spaces: in Bordeaux, the Garonne quays, a few dozen metres from the city centre, are full of passers-by, reported two journalists based in the south-western city. Some have even organised a "carnival" in the streets to defy basic safety rules.

The movement seems to have started as early as Saturday evening, when spontaneous gatherings, more massive than usual, were reported in several French cities. In Paris in the Bastille district, where some bars said they would only close their doors at 6am (despite a closure that came into effect at midnight), or in Dunkirk where carnival-goers took to the streets.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1239228993221599233

Also on social networks, many personalities also called their "followers" to be cautious, and warned that the next step could be a total confinement, and this time mandatory. For the time being, social distancing remains the only way to prevent the coronavirus epidemic from spreading too quickly.

 

[Echo Blue]

Here in my neck of the woods (Massachusetts), I have to say, that I do not know anyone who is sick, let alone has the flu - or some kind of cough/cold. My son, with whom I live, has a compromised immune system. He has been working with the public and is symptom free. He rarely gets sick, and fortunately I manage to get enough good food and supplements into his body which I am sure helps. We live in an apartment complex with 134 apartments for the elderly and disabled, and have not noticed much sickness within our little community either.

The grocery stores are wiped clean of the usual items people stock up on that are the first to clear off the shelves - toilet paper, pasta, peanut butter. Even though the stores are being restocked each night, people have been so anxiety stricken by the news that it only takes 2 hours in the morning for the most wanted items to disappear.

Schools are closed for 2 weeks. Our library is closed for the next two weeks. Banks are "suggesting" that people pay electronically (which is something I don't even know how to do). Restaurants are pretty much empty. And, there is not much traffic on the streets. It's rather kind of SPOOKY.

Everyone that I have spoken to, family, friends, people standing in line at the stores, are all totally confused as to what is happening. Not many seem to believe what they are being told about the virus being a global pandemic and that we all should be terrified. People are catching on to the nonsense.

There is not much else to say except: Interesting times, for sure! And thanks to everyone for their input into this thread!

 

[flashgordonv]

The one light spot in the way NZ is dealing with this is that in the explanation of self isolation, people are allowed out of their homes, allowed to walk in the park as long as they are keeping their distance from other people and avoiding crowds. Some encouragement to get some sunshine and fresh air.

 

[Joe]

I'm not so sure this is a very good point, but it would depend on what he actually means. Does he mean just going around and testing everyone who died in a hospital of any cause, seeing if they're positive, and then classifying those deaths as covid-related? If so, yeah, that would be dumb. Are hospitals actually doing that? I get the impression the deaths attributed to covid are the result of testing AND serious symptoms not typically associated with the preexisting condition, which is similar to how flu deaths are counted. E.g., person has cancer, gets the flu, dies while they have the flu and are in intensive care = flu-related death with comorbidities.

If a person without any illness would likely easily recover from a viral infection, but the same person with cancer gets the same viral infection and does not recover and dies, then they died of cancer, not the viral infection. To put it another way, if a person has been carrying 100kgs on his back for several years, and then someone adds 10kgs and they collapse and die shortly thereafter, it was not the 10kgs that killed them. If this is the way deaths by covid are being reported, then it is presenting a very distorted image of mortality rate from covid.

 

[Cosmos]

This video is EXCELLENT, thank you for sharing. The guy is very experienced and a true expert deserving that title.

Just two of the great points: in no way does testing positive for corona viruses in those who die from it mean that the virus is the cause of death. All it means is that "in those people, the corona virus was found". As he points out, the average age of the Italians who died was over 80, many of these had cancer and many other illnesses; the corona virus may have nothing to do with their deaths.

Second, there is all this panic that you can get "reinfected". He explains that the reason why the body doesn't preserve antibodies in certain cases (i.e. you are not immune forever after contracting a virus) is - ha! - that the immune system simply doesn't bother with such a harmless infection!! The immune system is smart: why keep antibodies for such a nothing-burger?

Great talk. It might even be worth it to use the automatic subtitle translation if you don't speak German. Link:

I'm not so sure this is a very good point, but it would depend on what he actually means. Does he mean just going around and testing everyone who died in a hospital of any cause, seeing if they're positive, and then classifying those deaths as covid-related? If so, yeah, that would be dumb. Are hospitals actually doing that? I get the impression the deaths attributed to covid are the result of testing AND serious symptoms not typically associated with the preexisting condition, which is similar to how flu deaths are counted. E.g., person has cancer, gets the flu, dies while they have the flu and are in intensive care = flu-related death with comorbidities.

But if he's talking about those cases with coronavirus symptoms, then you could say the same thing about normal flu deaths (which may be why China, for example, doesn't classify comorbid flu deaths as caused by the flu). I'd assume that some percentage of flu and covid deaths ARE simply caused by the previously existing condition. But it should be fairly simple to look at average daily/monthly death rates for all those other illnesses and subtract them from the numbers of those who also test positive for covid to get an idea of excess deaths more likely to have been brought on by complicating factors caused by the infection. Since so few people have actually died of covid compared to other illnesses, it will be negligible overall, but you should be able to get an idea.

Well I would agree with luc that Wolfgang brings up some crucial and important points in regards to this Corona business from a professional angle. Basically what he does is bringing the facts about Viruses in general and Corona types specifically on the table and the statistical/scientific baselines that are required to make sound assessments and predictions about the actual severity of any given virus. He basically points out all the needed statistical and logical foundations for the slow (rather than fast emotional/hysterical approach) assessment of the actual reality of the „threat“ of this Virus alla Kahneman.

Here is a version with English subtitles:

He also makes a good point about the so called tests for the Virus and how it normally takes quite some time and sound scientific research to create reliable ones. So from his description it sounds like he is rather sceptical about the reliability of the current makeshift tests, proclaiming to be able to test this more or less reliably.

 

[Tristan]

France, Spain and Germany are about 9 to 10 days behind Italy in COVID19 progression; the UK and the US follow at 13 to 16 days.

 

[aragorn]

This scientist, Michael Osterholm, appearing on Joe Rogan lays out a pretty grim picture of the severity of the Corona virus. As I listened to his fear mongering (listened only the first 5min), my common senses told me that he must be exaggerating. I really hope that's the case. His credentials are a mile long and he's clearly considered an expert. However, looking at his bio (here on Wikipedia) you can see that he has been on top positions connected to the US health care 'elite' like the CDC. Again, just my common sense, but I think he is making many things up to intentionally scare people. Do not show this interview to people who are already hysterical!

 

[Tristan]

Here hairdressing also. It is a plus. We are lucky! Yuppy.

In addition to the closure of non-essential shops, there is a lockdown at home. Neither can there be meetings of people, an so on ...Finally,the hairdressers will not open, they will be home services for disabled people.

There is no single recipe and each country has its own criteria. That's how it goes:

1. China: LOCKDOWN
2. Spain: LOCKDOWN
3. Italy: LOCKDOWN
4. USA: TRAVEL BAN
5. France: CLOSE ALL STORES THAT ARE NOT ESSENTIAL
6. UK: ??

 

[Cosmos]

If a person without any illness would likely easily recover from a viral infection, but the same person with cancer gets the same viral infection and does not recover and dies, then they died of cancer, not the viral infection. To put it another way, if a person has been carrying 100kgs on his back for several years, and then someone adds 10kgs and they collapse and die shortly thereafter, it was not the 10kgs that killed them. If this is the way deaths by covid are being reported, then it is presenting a very distorted image of mortality rate from covid.

That is also an important point Wolfgang is making, basically saying that it is in general hard to determine if a virus or something else is actually responsible for a death especially if it is a „new virus“ where not enough more or less reliable statistical data is available based on sound studies (especially long term ones).

 

[Cosmos]

This scientist, Michael Osterholm, appearing on Joe Rogan lays out a pretty grim picture of the severity of the Corona virus. As I listened to his fear mongering...

Search for „Osterholm“ and/or „Rogan“ on this thread. It was brought up a couple of times. Niall‘s response about it is also worth reading.