Creating a New World
- Thread starter Laura
- Start date
samii
Jedi
A world without Psychopaths means a world without evil, and that means humanity will trully be like one big family. Everyone is looking out for everyone else with no exceptions. There will be no need for political leaders, armies, monetary system, boarders, etc..
Everyone will be willing to participate to make life easier and less stressfull for everyone else.
Everyone will be willing to participate to make life easier and less stressfull for everyone else.
Samy, whoah! And what is going to happen to all the OTHER pathological people, many of whom are that way because of exposure to psychopaths!
And what about ordinary human emotions that can be twisted and distorted by happenstance, illness, tragedy that is due to natural causes? Who or what is going to ameliorate those conditions/cases?
Yes, a world without psychopaths would be a lot easier to manage once damaged people were healed and systems were set up to take care of those who cannot care for themselves, and those who need remedial assistance in adjusting to life and so on, but those things will always need to be done. That's why early tribal societies had a council of elders guided/advised by a shamanic type individual. That's why there were systems in place to handle the various problems that normal humans are heir to.
Without education and group support of ideals and norms, people do not grow up just magically to think that they want to make life eaiser and less stressful for everyone else. Go back an re-read Lobaczewski's little run-down on the history of human evolution posted earlier in this thread.
Certainly, we need spiritual/social/educational leaders, not "political" leaders, and without political leaders there will be no armies or war.
Monetary systems are, of course, delusional and therefore entropic: "stuff" is better. If you want something or a service, you should trade something or a service of equal value in exchange. But is giving someone a chicken the same as giving someone a sculpture? Probably not, so some system of establishing value of time/goods has to be in place. It could be based on assessing not only the amount of time that goes into something, but the amount of skill - the time it took to acquire the skill - and perhaps even a valuation placed on talent/ability which is sort of a cosmic element.
On top of all these considerations, there is the problem of needing at least an entire generation to re-orient humanity without the input/corruption of psychopathy. In a sense, that is what we are trying to do on a small scale right here, creating a seed for this kind of world.
So, yeah, while I see your point about psychopaths, it still is not a simple solution that would mean everything would just automatically get all better!
Finally, one must consider how many "normal" people are carrying the psychopathy genes due to years of mixing... and how long it would take - and WHAT it would take - to sort out the genetics. A whole lot of people would need to have their genes checked and some of them would need to voluntarily never have children.
Lots to think about.
And what about ordinary human emotions that can be twisted and distorted by happenstance, illness, tragedy that is due to natural causes? Who or what is going to ameliorate those conditions/cases?
Yes, a world without psychopaths would be a lot easier to manage once damaged people were healed and systems were set up to take care of those who cannot care for themselves, and those who need remedial assistance in adjusting to life and so on, but those things will always need to be done. That's why early tribal societies had a council of elders guided/advised by a shamanic type individual. That's why there were systems in place to handle the various problems that normal humans are heir to.
Without education and group support of ideals and norms, people do not grow up just magically to think that they want to make life eaiser and less stressful for everyone else. Go back an re-read Lobaczewski's little run-down on the history of human evolution posted earlier in this thread.
Certainly, we need spiritual/social/educational leaders, not "political" leaders, and without political leaders there will be no armies or war.
Monetary systems are, of course, delusional and therefore entropic: "stuff" is better. If you want something or a service, you should trade something or a service of equal value in exchange. But is giving someone a chicken the same as giving someone a sculpture? Probably not, so some system of establishing value of time/goods has to be in place. It could be based on assessing not only the amount of time that goes into something, but the amount of skill - the time it took to acquire the skill - and perhaps even a valuation placed on talent/ability which is sort of a cosmic element.
On top of all these considerations, there is the problem of needing at least an entire generation to re-orient humanity without the input/corruption of psychopathy. In a sense, that is what we are trying to do on a small scale right here, creating a seed for this kind of world.
So, yeah, while I see your point about psychopaths, it still is not a simple solution that would mean everything would just automatically get all better!
Finally, one must consider how many "normal" people are carrying the psychopathy genes due to years of mixing... and how long it would take - and WHAT it would take - to sort out the genetics. A whole lot of people would need to have their genes checked and some of them would need to voluntarily never have children.
Lots to think about.
D Rusak
Jedi Council Member
Whoa, this is a very intense thread. Away for a few days and then all this- took me a couple of days to work through this and watch videos. I still need to digest much of this material, but one thing strikes me about selecting leaders/shamans- I was thinking about Laura's comment that "there is no free lunch". So, a person who has attained knowledge and wisdom has likely suffered very much in their quest. Perhaps there is some way to qualitatively or quantitatively measure this suffering as a means of helping to select leaders. I'm not really sure what "suffering" means- I guess life knowledge, experiences, etc.
I guess I've been thinking about this a lot lately- some very interesting stories I've exchanged recently at a workshop have inspired this. For instance, I met this gentleman who was considered legally deaf (he had hearing aids and could detect vibrations when he played his instrument) ended up becoming a medical doctor and psychologist, and even though he wasn't the world's greatest player, was able to use his passion for the instrument and knowledge of related subjects (the physical and mental processes of producing the required goal- sound) is able to help others more effectively than Joe Random who is enthusiastic and maybe even works in the field full time but might not have the same life experiences that could help him to address the problems and needs of others as effectively. I guess some knowledge of who a person is and where she's come from would help (of course, this is assuming their story is true)...anyway, FWIW. I realized that hearing about other people's stories and what they had to overcome really 1. helped me to quell the self-pity program I run a lot 2. helped me have more compassion for others 3. seemed to unite the group towards common goals- in this case getting better at our instruments and gaining self-knowledge- since we all realized that we had obstacles to overcome and that there were many ways to do this. I guess anyone who might be considered for some sort of role could perhaps present their story to the group of individuals at large, see if there is any sort of group "consensus" or "feeling" towards this individual. Maybe their story could also help figure out what area they might work best in, even if it's not apparent to the individual himself.
Obviously the first needs- water, warmth, food, shelter would come first but hopefully this is helpful.
I guess I've been thinking about this a lot lately- some very interesting stories I've exchanged recently at a workshop have inspired this. For instance, I met this gentleman who was considered legally deaf (he had hearing aids and could detect vibrations when he played his instrument) ended up becoming a medical doctor and psychologist, and even though he wasn't the world's greatest player, was able to use his passion for the instrument and knowledge of related subjects (the physical and mental processes of producing the required goal- sound) is able to help others more effectively than Joe Random who is enthusiastic and maybe even works in the field full time but might not have the same life experiences that could help him to address the problems and needs of others as effectively. I guess some knowledge of who a person is and where she's come from would help (of course, this is assuming their story is true)...anyway, FWIW. I realized that hearing about other people's stories and what they had to overcome really 1. helped me to quell the self-pity program I run a lot 2. helped me have more compassion for others 3. seemed to unite the group towards common goals- in this case getting better at our instruments and gaining self-knowledge- since we all realized that we had obstacles to overcome and that there were many ways to do this. I guess anyone who might be considered for some sort of role could perhaps present their story to the group of individuals at large, see if there is any sort of group "consensus" or "feeling" towards this individual. Maybe their story could also help figure out what area they might work best in, even if it's not apparent to the individual himself.
Obviously the first needs- water, warmth, food, shelter would come first but hopefully this is helpful.
foofighter
Jedi Council Member
After I had written the previous post I realized that I had missed a whole lot of posts in the middle of this thread ("Show unread posts" and multiple computers can screw things up), including the reference to The Trap and the reformulation of the question into the "200-people" scenario. So while the previous post really was aiming at society at large rather than a group of 200, it still has some important points I think.foofighter said:
Having now seen The Trap, it relates very much to what I wrote about organization theory, especially the second part which discusses "targets" and pathological management theory. As I wrote, what I think we should replace it with is something along the lines of Systems Thinking, where value is measured as "value produced for the customer" rather than "work performed", as there's LOTS of work that can (and is) done which is pure waste. Especially in a group of only 200, many of which may be stressed and tired because of the exposed situation, it is important to avoid "blame-game" management which the target-culture leads to.
As I also wrote, I think the role of "managers" (which is a lousy word) is not that of managing workers as people, but rather to communicate with the outside world, make the workers job as easy as possible, and help create "flow" in whatever is being done. In one case I know, the manager in the end realized that the most important thing he should do was to make coffee for the workers. Then so be it! In the 200-scenario a "managers" job might be to get water for the workers building the house, so that they can maintain their strength. Renaming "manager" to "facilitator" or "coordinator" is therefore a high priority, both in this world and the 200-world, I think. The company I work at already do this, and it is a much more effective and nice-to-work-at environment than the alternatives I have seen. I, as a worker, tell the manager to do things for me to help me in my work, not the other way round.
With this view of workers (as "cells") and managers/coordinators/facilitators (as "nerves"), I think the result is indeed an organically growing and adapting society, where people do not necessarily have a fixed position, but rather can move depending on needs, and where knowledge can be more organically spread by using the Dreyfus skill acquisition model and something like apprenticeship, thus blending knowing/being properly, as is missing entirely in todays education system.
Cyre2067
The Living Force
So just finished catching up on the posts and watching the trap, using Laura's post as a jump off point here's what popped in my head.
From here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscle we have this bit:
The selection also addresses the two other types of muscle, cardiac and smooth - which are organ specific. Googling on skeleton gives varying descriptions, which vary depending on the sex and age of the human. Males and adults have a higher percentage of their overall body weight composed of skeleton then females and youth. It's as little as 6-7% body mass according to this source. 12-15% Body weight according to this one.. So interestingly enough we have bones and muscle comprising roughly 50% of the human body.
Indeed they had a way of life which provided for all, most likely by giving all to each other - in other words they were STO-ish. How was this done? I think the basic principles have been flushed out here, gentle mirroring, communication/networking, division of labor based upon a common understanding of types and a spiritual technology based upon the natural principles of the universe. I think, once our bodies and minds have been detoxed via diet/meditation we will be ready for the 'next step' in this direction, reestablishing these ideas as a lifestyle. One step at a time, however.
My thoughts were not that the drawings were to be meant literally, for instance how often do we reference a horse as a metaphor for our emotions. Undoubtedly emotions are powerful, and one of the things that make us human - so it would make sense if they were trying to represent the concept with 3D representation. Horses could also represent work, manual labor, building, scouting, searching - same for bison, human hands, a reindeer. A lot of potential interpretations here. When you mention bears and lions being drawn less over time, it reminds me of Illion's discussion of ascending/descending animals, which could also explain why certain animals were not drawn.
Perhaps these animals also represent concepts in metaphor. Being noble animals of great power, defenders, shamans perhaps. And overtime the concept was lost, thus it was drawn less and less.
As for the sexual imagery a lot of potential interpretation, what came to mind for me was a reference to their spiritual technology. Reproduction, creation - life giving - they could generate food, cures for ailments, travel and communicate with this technology. It required a male and female component, or energy. Since we talk about ecstasy, perhaps giving off this energy or utilizing it was gratifying in some sense, and since we used it consciously there was less a need for sex except for reproductive purposes.
Black and red, immediately I get the impression of life - blood, and death or void. So we have an understanding of positive and negative, STS and STO perhaps?
This is just what's coming to mind, fwiw.
So we have large techno-spiritual machines with humans as the cogs, and specific types that operate them. We probably have others that do more of the mundane tasks, which are no less important since they're required to maintain a 3D existence. Education was probably handled by seeing which natural abilities the children had, which tasks they gravitated toward and a sort of apprenticing. Free will was respected since everyone naturally gravitated toward their purpose, guided by the spiritual leaders. Reproduction was sacred, and since we were more STO-ish perhaps our sexual drives were a bit more subdued, that energy being directed more consciously for a different purpose - manifestation, defense, healing.
I doubt psychopathy existed (as we conceive it today), it seems to have been deliberately created by 4D STS for the purpose of replacing the shaman, they became the STS interface between 4&3D. There was no knowledge of pathology, because it hadn't been experienced yet. Maybe those with the trait were somehow less cunning, less able to manipulate, and when we 'fell' they became more psychopath-ish, and/or we somehow became more susceptible to their predations.
Laura said:
From here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscle we have this bit:
The selection also addresses the two other types of muscle, cardiac and smooth - which are organ specific. Googling on skeleton gives varying descriptions, which vary depending on the sex and age of the human. Males and adults have a higher percentage of their overall body weight composed of skeleton then females and youth. It's as little as 6-7% body mass according to this source. 12-15% Body weight according to this one.. So interestingly enough we have bones and muscle comprising roughly 50% of the human body.
Laura said:
Indeed they had a way of life which provided for all, most likely by giving all to each other - in other words they were STO-ish. How was this done? I think the basic principles have been flushed out here, gentle mirroring, communication/networking, division of labor based upon a common understanding of types and a spiritual technology based upon the natural principles of the universe. I think, once our bodies and minds have been detoxed via diet/meditation we will be ready for the 'next step' in this direction, reestablishing these ideas as a lifestyle. One step at a time, however.
Laura said:
My thoughts were not that the drawings were to be meant literally, for instance how often do we reference a horse as a metaphor for our emotions. Undoubtedly emotions are powerful, and one of the things that make us human - so it would make sense if they were trying to represent the concept with 3D representation. Horses could also represent work, manual labor, building, scouting, searching - same for bison, human hands, a reindeer. A lot of potential interpretations here. When you mention bears and lions being drawn less over time, it reminds me of Illion's discussion of ascending/descending animals, which could also explain why certain animals were not drawn.
Illion said:
Perhaps these animals also represent concepts in metaphor. Being noble animals of great power, defenders, shamans perhaps. And overtime the concept was lost, thus it was drawn less and less.
As for the sexual imagery a lot of potential interpretation, what came to mind for me was a reference to their spiritual technology. Reproduction, creation - life giving - they could generate food, cures for ailments, travel and communicate with this technology. It required a male and female component, or energy. Since we talk about ecstasy, perhaps giving off this energy or utilizing it was gratifying in some sense, and since we used it consciously there was less a need for sex except for reproductive purposes.
Black and red, immediately I get the impression of life - blood, and death or void. So we have an understanding of positive and negative, STS and STO perhaps?
This is just what's coming to mind, fwiw.
Laura said:
So we have large techno-spiritual machines with humans as the cogs, and specific types that operate them. We probably have others that do more of the mundane tasks, which are no less important since they're required to maintain a 3D existence. Education was probably handled by seeing which natural abilities the children had, which tasks they gravitated toward and a sort of apprenticing. Free will was respected since everyone naturally gravitated toward their purpose, guided by the spiritual leaders. Reproduction was sacred, and since we were more STO-ish perhaps our sexual drives were a bit more subdued, that energy being directed more consciously for a different purpose - manifestation, defense, healing.
I doubt psychopathy existed (as we conceive it today), it seems to have been deliberately created by 4D STS for the purpose of replacing the shaman, they became the STS interface between 4&3D. There was no knowledge of pathology, because it hadn't been experienced yet. Maybe those with the trait were somehow less cunning, less able to manipulate, and when we 'fell' they became more psychopath-ish, and/or we somehow became more susceptible to their predations.
D Rusak said:
This is interesting D Rusak since I remember Gurdjieffs account of two traveling brothers in his book 'Meetings with Remarkable Men' who would periodically visit the different monasteries speaking of esoteric truths . One brother (brother Sez) would speak only from from the mind (ego/personality) and even though he was a very good orator (and possibly a spellbinder), what he said only acted on the minds of the listeners. What he said, although leaving an immediate impression, would soon be forgotten and would make no lasting impression.
But the other brother spoke more directly from his inner being (inner essence) and this acted directly on the inner being of the listeners, leaving a much more lasting and permanent impression. So, possibly, the gentleman that you describe above fits more into the ‘essence’ category.
A video dramatization of Gurdjieff's account of these two brothers is given here in this youtube video clip (towards the end of it) which was taken from the movie of the book, directed by Peter Brooks.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPo9B41xOas&feature=related
Balberon said:
Hi all,
Thanks for posting this quote Balberon, I've been thinking about it for a couple of days. It occurred to me that if we are fragments of a larger soul who are trying to unite again, maybe we collectively ("perhaps they will find you"), united in breath and dance, are "none but she", who may (hopefully) "stand in the gates of time and act as a bridge".
It kind of makes sense, because as Laura observed, a single person attempting such a deed would likely die from the "voltage", so to speak. The clues point to a group interaction. Even the board takes two people to be an effective means of communication. So were are detoxing, meditating, reading, interacting, all of which is about getting on the same page mentally, physically and emotionally. And together we might make the transducer that handles the energies of being that bridge.
fwiw
Herondancer
edit: fixed funky quotes code
Hope not I'm wandering off track here. I've recently been re-reading sections of the book by Peter Kropotkin entitled Mutual Aid: A factor of evolution (published in 1914). Although the first few chapters
deal wth mutual aid amoung animals( primates, wolves, lions and other groups) later ones dealt with how human groups are organised, specifically ' savages', barbarians (outside the Roman Empire) and within medieval cities. He makes the point that the basic family unit is a fairly recent development and for a long time prior to this, tribes, clans and similar sized groups were the norm.
There is also a fascinating extract (I think) in chapter 3 about the many shell heaps (middens) discovered in Denmark which were long thought to be natural features. There were upto 10 feet in depth, 100-200ft wide and 1000ft or more in length.
"The very size and extension of the shell-heaps prove that for generations and generations the coasts of Denmark were inhabited by hundreds of small tribes..."
The book is here -
http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/etext03/mtlad10.txt
More on the Danish shell heaps here -
http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Shell-heaps
Noteworthy points indicating the age of these heaps, include, remains of extinct animals found and changes in the local geography deduced from the distribution of certain seafood shells found at the sites. All of which would prove a very long time of occupancy.The absence of any indication of agriculture is also noted.
deal wth mutual aid amoung animals( primates, wolves, lions and other groups) later ones dealt with how human groups are organised, specifically ' savages', barbarians (outside the Roman Empire) and within medieval cities. He makes the point that the basic family unit is a fairly recent development and for a long time prior to this, tribes, clans and similar sized groups were the norm.
There is also a fascinating extract (I think) in chapter 3 about the many shell heaps (middens) discovered in Denmark which were long thought to be natural features. There were upto 10 feet in depth, 100-200ft wide and 1000ft or more in length.
"The very size and extension of the shell-heaps prove that for generations and generations the coasts of Denmark were inhabited by hundreds of small tribes..."
The book is here -
http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/etext03/mtlad10.txt
More on the Danish shell heaps here -
http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Shell-heaps
Noteworthy points indicating the age of these heaps, include, remains of extinct animals found and changes in the local geography deduced from the distribution of certain seafood shells found at the sites. All of which would prove a very long time of occupancy.The absence of any indication of agriculture is also noted.
La Cigale et la fourmi
La Cigale, ayant chanté
Tout l'été,
Se trouva fort dépourvue
Quand la bise fut venue.
Pas un seul petit morceau
De mouche ou de vermisseau.
Elle alla crier famine
Chez la fourmi sa voisine,
La priant de lui prêter
Quelque grain pour subsister
Jusqu'à la saison nouvelle.
« Je vous paierai, lui dit-elle,
Avant l'oût, foi d'animal,
Intérêt et principal. »
La Fourmi n'est pas prêteuse ;
C'est là son moindre défaut.
« Que faisiez-vous au temps chaud ?
Dit-elle à cette emprunteuse.
--Nuit et jour à tout venant
Je chantais, ne vous déplaise.
--Vous chantiez ? j'en suis fort aise.
Eh bien ! dansez maintenant. »
Jean de LA FONTAINE
Fables, livre I (1668)
I'm sorry to quote de la fontaine in french but I don't know if he was translated. For me a valuation of talent sound a lot like a class system. Let say that we create a new society where O.P (soulless)are muscle and bone and count for 50% of the population and the rest souled human. Now let say that we kill a cow to feed everyone, could someone tell me who get what. My idea, is that we make a big stew and every thing is share in equal quantity i.e. no one get the filet mignon because he or she is of "higher" standing. You see I can not imagine a world where one is placed by it skill on a podium, those who possess a soul should give the proper mirror image to the O.P and classifying the society may only enhance the division. The souled must realize that there goal is to move to the upper realm and to do so he doesn't need to be feed filet mignon, he must be a example. Soulless must be show the way and then realize what is the advantage of following it. If the soulless do not understand what a musician or a sculptor mean, he wouldn't trade a chicken for a piece of wood or a song after a thought day harvesting the field. He will keep the chicken and eat it.
Tigersoap
The Living Force
Laurentien said:
I may be wrong but I am not sure it would apply to basic needs such as food for example.
In an ideal society every basic needs would be cared for according to the individual, some would eat less, some more, I don't know if it would be balanced naturally because the greed and fear factor would dampened somehow ?
It seems to me that if you try that everyone around has what he needs and everyone does the same with you it should work out osit.
I've seen an episode of the BBC serie Tribe where one tribe, living in the deep jungle was sharing equally the food between families because they knew how to avoid jealousy or greed by trying to be fair with every member of the tribe.
True I don't know exactly how can you value something over something else apart from time and maybe how much "being" was put into it ?
What Laura said is important in this context imho :