C's Misses?

[iscreamsandwish]

In my humble opinion and with all due respect. Seems like this person is just trying to inflate their ego by "poking holes" in everyone's comments/arguments. Acting like nothing is good enough and they're all that and a bag of chips... Look how much energy everyone is using trying to knock some sense into this person. This person is not very likely to take any advice/help from anyone around here.
Discussion may be beneficial for other members but seems like the troll is getting feed.

***This is my opinion/ advice nobody asked for

 

[MirAd]

i don't think we should be harsh and alienate othree from the forum with what he/she can percieve as personal attack. on the other hand, the point stands that there are no sources which are always right.

that takes away all the fun from learning anyway.

 

[Woodsman]

othree said:
And this is why I like capitalism: It forces you to work on yourself and strive for constant improvement.
Otherwise, you will just alienate potential clients. This is not good for business.
This was one of the things which improved my behavior, I believe: to understand that how I come across interpersonally reflects directly on my ability to sustain myself.
I believe that many people who donate to sott.net or the group behind it, also read the posts on this forum.
Maybe something to think about. Maybe not ...

I'm perhaps wishfully inclined to give the benefit of the doubt and read the above as your experiencing a pivotal "Ah ha" moment in this thread. If so, good for you.

In any case, I found Jo Bugman's earlier post a timely and useful review:

Wow!

I came back half a day later and re-read that. Wishful thinking indeed!

You weren't talking about yourself, trying to reconcile with having realized you were acting like a marionette being tossed about by a bunch of little 'i's, making a wry observation about learning appropriate behavior through hard lessons and unforgiving forces (like capitalism) in an effort to make a painful lesson a little less so.

No, no! You were insinuating the threat of financial punishment for the forum not agreeing with your worldview! Holy crap! (Because the people who donate to SOTT and read the forum would obviously recognize how terribly you were being treated and immediately retract their financial support.)

Damn! That's nuts, dude. Real Gollum thinking.

I always hope and assume that people are capable of recognizing when their programming has been activated, and that once this is pointed out to them and they go through a little death, they'll naturally seek to regain balance by correcting their trajectory through the medium of Objective Reality.

I'm always hopeful for this outcome, but it's far more rare than one might like, especially on the internet. I think perhaps it's because it can take a long time, years even, for things to settle enough that the lesson can sprout in due course. In the real world, you'll hear people, years later, when the 'i' has some distance away and one no longer feels connected to it, that they'll say, "Yeah. I was a bit of an ass back then, wasn't I?" And they know now that you still loved them anyway.

 

[ark]

i don't think we should be harsh and alienate othree from the forum with what he/she can percieve as personal attack. on the other hand,

There are people who every criticism, is perceived as a personal attack. Should one not point a nonsense/incoherence in thinking when they speak nonsense? What good will come from such a treatment? They will stay convinced that that they are right when they are wrong. Will a tiger change his behavior when you are nice to him? Will he stop eating you and enjoying the food? Rarely so. When an adult shoots at you with a gun for no good reason should you behave with him like with an innocent lost child? Sometimes it works. But more often than not you are not helping this person. You are preventing him to learn his lessons. Parents that let their children do whatever they want not always do good for their children. Often they simply spoil them. Take it into account, please.

 

[Chu]

I know I shouldn't be surprised any more, after years of unoriginal posts such as the ones made by 03 in the forum. But, it still amazes me to see how:

- Some people enjoy pointing the finger at what they perceive is wrong because THEY don't like it, outside of all context and objective facts.
- Do exactly what they accuse others of doing.
- Pretend to know how to do what Laura does better, yet, they have nothing to show for it. No visible inspiration, and much less perspiration.
- Leave, but can't leave, a sign of pathological persistence.
- Throw subtle threats that only make their posts sound sillier.
- Love negative attention.
- Manifest a Dunning-Kruger effect in most of their alleged "humble" words
- Contradict themselves all the time ("I admire your work", obviously not having read it!")
- Are only happy with yes/no answers, never creative and thinking deeply.

Othree, the answers to your questions are easy to find: In the Wave Series! Laura explained (beautifully, if you ask me) how the Cs work, why we should not take then as Gospel, and why WORK is essential. But of course, since you hate her writing so much, you won't read it. Which or course means that you won't learn a thing from this exchange. Which of course doesn't mean that others won't, or that people are going to agree with you just because. Which of course, tends to point towards a goal in your mind when posting, which is in opposition to what we aim to do here: Find the truth, no matter how small the topic, and in spite of our human limitations, and to the extent to which truth can be glimpsed. Too much work, eh?

Why is it so hard for some people to find another "club" when they don't like ours? To start their own forums and "do better"? Very puzzling... They will take this as us being closed to criticism and close-minded (which is utterly false if they understand a minimum of how we operate), instead of seeing that they simply don't belong here. There is no judgment in that. Some people love apples, other people love oranges!

 

[MirAd]

There are people who every critics perceive as a personal attack. Shoul one not point a nonsense/incoherence in thinking when they speak nonsense? What good will come from such a treatment? They will stay convinced that that they are right when they are wrong. Will a tiger change his behavior when you are nice to him? Will he stop eating you and enjoying the food? Rarely so. When an adult shoots at you with a gun for no good reason should you behave with him like with an innocent lost child? Sometimes it works. But more often than not you are not helping this person. You are preventing him to learn his lessons. Parents that let their children do whatever they want not always do good for their children. Often they simply spoil them. Take it into account, please.

well, i do agree with your general point and with the tiger example though i am not sure that othree is that type of person. not enough evidence of his malicious intentions for me, so i will give him benefit of the doubt for now.

just chasing away from the forum anybody who asks questions is not necessarily good strategy or sto oriented aciton. by this, i don't justify anyone's actions harmful to the community in any way, but want more nuanced view.

we are here to network, and part of getting more nuanced position is taking into account other people's point of view and suggestions(as in your previous post), which i will gladly do.

 

[Nienna]

I'm not going to apologize for my writing style since most people like it, and find it to be clear because I am always considering any difficulties the reader may have.

Laura, there is no reason at all to apologize for the wonderful books and articles you have written. They are all very understandable; especially considering all of the dry, wordy and hard to understand tomes you have read in your research for all of these works you have done. It's incredible that you are able to make these books understandable to someone like me who is only of average intelligence. I find that remarkable.

If you don't like the decor or the fellow guests, or the activities and they way they are done, hit the road. That doesn't make a cult,

I find it amusing how people call this forum a "cult". Do they even know what a cult is? One of the descriptions of a cult is that once you join, they don't let you go. That is so far from what this here is. If you want to leave, all you have to do is click on that little "x" at the top of the tab; and we are gonzarooni! Sheesh, how hard is that?

Perhaps it is a consequence of Millennial upbringing, helicopter parenting, giving everyone in class a prize so no one is left out so that nobody gets their feelings hurt.

I think that that may be true of o3 and others like her/him. They think that they should get what they want, and they should get it NOW. No work needed. Just hand it to them the way they want it.

 

[fifty_five]

So, looking back at my life I have to admit that I have the tendency to fall into cultish followership a bit too much. I have been reading the C material for over 10 years or so and I keep catching myself believing too much what the C's are saying. That's why I like to remind myself of their failures to avoid falling into this type of thinking again.

can i say something stupid as a newbie? 03, you are not a newbie. this post should have been in the swamp.

 

[ark]

we are here to network, and part of getting more nuanced position is taking into account other people's point of view and suggestions(as in your previous post), which i will gladly do.

Exactly. That is why I have voiced my view. I am not expecting everyone to agree with my view. I have given my reasons, based on my knowledge and my experience. Other forum members may have a different knowledge and different experience. Open discussion is important. And I think it is always good to have a whole spectrum of arguments. Group knowledge is often better than that of a one individual. Brainstorming is usually done in groups.

 

[Alma.Innovadora]

well, i do agree with your general point and with the tiger example though i am not sure that othree is that type of person. not enough evidence of his malicious intentions for me, so i will give him benefit of the doubt for now.

On sott.net can find a lot of information on these types of behaviors for those who don't want to navigate through all the information in books. But if one want to learn, we do it. It is enough to have a sense of organization to extract the most necessary information and have it at hand. A reminder, notes, jottings, etc. Nowadays you read the pdf and take a screenshot, simple.

if anyone can't see the direct signals here, how can expect to see him out there?...

One thing I have noticed, is that this type of persons not only idealize the Cass, they also idealize the moderators, they only identify with those that resonate with your belief system, therefore you understand nothing, nothing, nothing of what all this entails. The collinearity here present and defending this work with is not because we all "smoke" the same thing.

"Sometimes people have a very strong core belief. When presented with evidence that works against that belief, the new evidence cannot be accepted. It would generate an extremely uncomfortable feeling, called cognitive dissonance. And because it is so important to protect the core belief, they will rationalize, ignore and even deny anything that does not fit that core belief." - Frantz Fanon

"According to the Great Work, a friend is one where you support and promote in others the expansion of either the mind or the spirit. Otherwise they would be people to whom you would be sentimentally attached because they feed you cinnamon rolls. And they would say, "hey, hey, hey! Aren't we having a good time?" Drug addicts do the same thing. Drug addicts hang out with people who support them and end up staying away from real friends. You know why? Because it feels good. Being a member of a mystic school can be catastrophic for the ego, for ego habits, and for the predisposition to mediocrity. No one ever begged for excellence. They only cried when their mediocrity was taken away from them, and they were held up to it." - Jerhoam

For those who are getting carried away with pity, let's contemplate a bit. How is one person going to demand that all that Laura and her close members worked and lived through, all those who gradually came along, also working and helping, all of us who are at different levels still fighting, all that information, ALL THESE LIVES... should simply revolve around this type of person? Should all the books be taken away and rewritten and the cases changed to closed yes/no answers and the whole universe adapted to the only perspective that this person can "read" the information in his environment? Maybe replacing the word "Laura", "Cass", "forum", etc. so that it is not an emotional curtain. What does it look like in the background? the dynamics in each circumstance where a person wants to drag the reality and the reality of others to himself? curiously and alarmingly, this is what we are seeing in the world.

Knowledge and information explained more than words, I suggest watching the "Knowledge and Being" videos. More unbundling than that, perhaps that others live for them. As some Latins say when someone is too lazy, "I make your baby for you too? ("también te hago el muchacho?").

- Some people enjoy pointing the finger at what they perceive is wrong because THEY don't like it, outside of all context and objective facts.
- Do exactly what they accuse others of doing.
- Pretend to know how to do what Laura does better, yet, they have nothing to show for it. No visible inspiration, and much less perspiration.
- Leave, but can't leave, a sign of pathological persistence.
- Throw subtle threats that only make their posts sound sillier.
- Love negative attention.
- Manifest a Dunning-Kruger effect in most of their alleged "humble" words
- Contradict themselves all the time ("I admire your work", obviously not having read it!")
- Are only happy with yes/no answers, never creative and thinking deeply.

The daily bread, "be my daily bread". We must be our best cheft.

 

[Wandering Star]

I want to comment on something about those who have "doubts" and declare their "doubts".

Last summer I was able to enjoy a few days of vacation and I had several moments in which I could calmly reflect.

For several days I had a nagging thought that there was something wrong with this forum. It came from some severe responses to some members who exposed their criticisms.

It was like an attack.

I only saw what in my mind I perceived as an unkind attitude towards some people.

With effort, I managed to stop it and begin to see the bright side.

Finding the work of everyone involved in this forum is the greatest gift I have received.

I perfectly remember, as I was almost hopelessly incomplete, the months before "by chance" I decided to read something someone was doing with a "witchcraft" tablet (that's what I thought of this instrument due to the intense social programming in this regard).

I am quite sure that we are not perfect and that we all make mistakes at some point without knowing it.

But honestly, I believe that this forum is the best thing this planet has right now, with its possible flaws, but certainly with incredible virtues.

 

[Chu]

well, i do agree with your general point and with the tiger example though i am not sure that othree is that type of person. not enough evidence of his malicious intentions for me, so i will give him benefit of the doubt for now.

just chasing away from the forum anybody who asks questions is not necessarily good strategy or sto oriented aciton. by this, i don't justify anyone's actions harmful to the community in any way, but want more nuanced view.

we are here to network, and part of getting more nuanced position is taking into account other people's point of view and suggestions(as in your previous post), which i will gladly do.

I think I understand what you mean, but some questions, suggestions and observations are sincere, and you won't see anybody here rejecting those. For example, yours seem to be sincere, so I think it's worth clarifying and sharing.

But when somebody obviously has an "agenda", and is not open to any discussion in spite of several openings and explanations, I don't see the point in being too "nice". This is not just "anybody who asks questions" [read "innocent questions"], is it? We've got some experience to know which is which, and at least for me, enough malicious intention HAS been shown. Or at the very least, it's the attitude of someone who isn't here to learn with us, but to disrupt. Besides, it's not as if people haven't tried to explain, reason, and discuss things, if you take into account the beginning of this thread. The original poster is only getting replies according to what he/she has given thus far. Or so I think.

Put differently: Imagine your had built a chess club from scratch, and thanks to that, your loved ones and your community benefit a lot. Not everything is perfect, but it's such a nice place and atmosphere. But then comes a stranger knocking at the door one day, and tells you, "I kind of like what you did with the place, but OMG, you're the worst builder in the world! And I don't like you because you are ugly and I wanted to play tennis instead. I want you to play more tennis. Can you just do it all better?" [That's the level of maturity manifested by Othree here, I think]. Now, is that a "question" that deserves patience and a discussion, or is that person just trolling you and being mean for no apparent reason? I'm bad with analogies, but I hope you see my point.

To one extent or another, we've all been conditioned with a "be-nice program", as we usually call it around here. But at least in my experience, for what it's worth, it has been VERY important to unlearn that, and be able (thanks to this network), to see when being "nice" doesn't help me or others. I'm all for giving people the benefit of the doubt, time, patience, etc. But I also think it's reasonable to expect that the other person meets us half way if they want to interact here.

 

[Michael B-C]

I'm not going to apologize for my writing style since most people like it, and find it to be clear because I am always considering any difficulties the reader may have.

The idea is beyond laughable. Laura's unique ability to distill multiple strands of complex concepts and intricate nuanced detail into crystal clear, stimulating and easily fathomable prose whilst all the time keeping the reader joyfully in her presence as a real person with a beating heart and punchy humor, has given me incalculable hours of humbling pleasure and delight. Personally I would give her the Nobel Prize for literature - being out there alone as she is in her own domain of genius. Laura's idiosyncratic yet inclusive style is why we lesser mortals can actually grasp the otherwise impossible to comprehend.

How I despise the shallow literature snob! I've come across this approach to her work before and each time without fail it has said everything about the low grade ego of the reader (e.g. jealousy mixed with unwillingness to do any real work themselves) and nothing whatsoever of value about her writing.

 

[Vinícius]

i think the OP has shown willful and blind ignorance when not listening to others questions nor showing a solution to her own issues on interpreteting Cs material
mostly relying on hyperboles, showing both codependency and self-righteousness, and wasn't that the ORIGINAL sin BTW?(just pointing out for consideration)

 

[sbeaudry]

We don't always get what we want. And I get wanting a reliable road map. And in this yes no on off binary techno world you may want quick answers and look to the Cs for those answers. And it's understandable to want a road map to see what it's going to look like to navigate with. I appreciate the post and I'm not sure what the pushback is on the pros cons list but clearly the C's are not infallible and most of us knew that going in and going back 20 years. For me I know I've fallen off not doing the work and I have gotten very angry. But that doesn't make this a cult and we're all fallible.. we're all human and it's a difficult road.